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North Korea thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
OrtonToOlsen
Footballguy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
There is a good chance and hopefully Joe Biden will be our next POTUS. What do you think he should do with NK?
KCitons
Footballguy
I think he tried something. In simplest terms, I see Kim as a troubled kid. Everybody labels him as weird and nobody does anything to help him. Eventually he snaps and shoots up the school. Perhaps if someone would have taken the time to get to know him, maybe sit next to him at lunch (stand in NK and take a photograph). Maybe the weird kid doesn't look so weird and appears to be just like you and me. Maybe that kid stops acting out to get attention.
Meeting violence with violence is only going to work if you are prepared to go to war. Otherwise you have to try something else. This is what I think Trump did. Had he or any other POTUS taken military action against NK, I would have been against that. More so than Trump taking pictures with his pen pal.
I'm sure a couple of people will jump in here and say that Kim is a brutal dictator and doesn't deserve attention from us. I would again ask, do you want total war with NK? If not, then you are going to have to give him some type of attention. Ignoring him will just make him act out.
rockaction
Footballguy
I've never taken this seriously. What can he do? A big, fat nothing. See: Madeliene tripping the light fantastic with Jong-Il one fine night. He could also, however, shut the good heck up about it on Twitter and publicly, which he has refrained from even attempting.
In reality, we were always ####ed as long as China gave them nuclear secrets, an element of N. Korea going nuclear which I had the pleasure of being unwittingly briefed upon once.
In reality, we were always ####ed as long as China gave them nuclear secrets, an element of N. Korea going nuclear which I had the pleasure of being unwittingly briefed upon once.
KCitons
Footballguy
Still haven't heard an answer to this question. What makes our testing (or anyone else's) less dangerous.?
The Commish
Footballguy
As you've said, there is nothing he was going to be able to do to make things better. Manage it so things don't get worse was the best possible outcome and relatively easy to achieve by just keeping his mouth shut and letting the grown ups handle the relationship. This way there is no narrative like "The US seems to enjoy the company of dictators who murder their own citizens", yet here we are. "Better to keep your mouth shut and leave everyone wondering than opening it and removing all doubt" seems to be particularly applicable here.
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't see how you can look at diplomatic relations and make the leap from establishing contact to enjoying the company of or longing for the same authority over the citizenry.
It takes some sort of mental gymnastics to pull that off, and I don't think the world sees it that way. If they do, they're stupid.
It takes some sort of mental gymnastics to pull that off, and I don't think the world sees it that way. If they do, they're stupid.
The Commish
Footballguy
The only way to NOT come away with the idea that Trump likes being in his company is to suggest that his actions are staged and his words are all lies. The latter is rather simple to justify, the actions are the problem.
msommer
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Bush looked into Putin's eyes, saw a window to the soul, and deemed it good.
I mean, these guys pump each other's tires all the time. It's diplomacy, something that Trump is awful at, so let's encourage him when he gets it right.
rockaction
Footballguy
We do it removed from populous areas if I understand correctly. And we have a reliable program.
But the point is moot, really: The question in international relations is not one of fairness. Nobody has an overriding ethic or a charter or constitution to follow. Foreign policy is nasty. Do we have enough weapons to wipe the planet out a million times over? Sure do. Do we want anybody else to have them? Sure don't.
It flows thenceforth
msommer
Footballguy
He didn't. He elevated a tin pot dictator to the world stage, "fell in love", praised the dictator for how well he had cowed his people and press, etc.
That's not getting it right.
And why justify Trump's idiocy by pointing out that Bush dis stupid things too?
Last edited by a moderator:
rockaction
Footballguy
Because assuaging a nuclear power in the press is part of the #### of the job that you do as a world leader. I don't believe a word Trump says. I doubt he means anything that comes out of his mouth about Jong Un.
And I never, ever said he "got it right." Getting it right is taking a measured approach, praising when reforms are made, condemning that which is antithetical to our society's basic freedoms, etc. It requires a deal of level-headedness and long-range planning our current president seems to lack. Donald Trump is not that president. He's an entirely different animal, oft-enamored of power and wielding it. We know that. But to say he's bungled N, Korea worse than anybody else? That's simply untrue.
rockaction
Footballguy
I just wrote downthread that I haven't believed a word out of Trump's mouth since he promised to use Mexico to pay for the wall.The only way to NOT come away with the idea that Trump likes being in his company is to suggest that his actions are staged and his words are all lies. The latter is rather simple to justify, the actions are the problem.
My jaw hit the ####### floor when I heard that a serious politician would ever even beggar belief by saying that out loud.
msommer
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I was talking about pumping Un's tires instead of threatening to wipe him off of the map with an arsenal of nuclear weaponry, much like he said he could do in Afghanistan if he needed to. He at least figured out that a nuclear power requires a differing diplomacy. Good for him.
The Commish
Footballguy
Right....which is why I wrote the bold. The actions are the problem and lead directly to being something more than simply "establishing contact"I just wrote downthread that I haven't believed a word out of Trump's mouth since he promised to use Mexico to pay for the wall.The only way to NOT come away with the idea that Trump likes being in his company is to suggest that his actions are staged and his words are all lies. The latter is rather simple to justify, the actions are the problem.
My jaw hit the ####### floor when I heard that a serious politician would ever even beggar belief by saying that out loud.
KCitons
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
He says things like “we fell in love” about Kim Jong Un. And how much they are friends. He certainly says they enjoy each other’s company.
KCitons
Footballguy
Trump is called a pathological liar a 50 times a day (and that's just on this board). He said Mexico was going to pay for the wall. He said there was no collusion with Russia. He said he didn't sexually assault those women.
But, this. This is what you want to believe he's telling the truth about? He and Kim fell in love?
dozer
Footballguy
Of the four things you mention, he falling in love with KJU is by far the most believable...
msommer
Footballguy
He started out with fire and fury, and rocketman, remember.
But anyway, if you want to cling to the "look in his heart" argument, go right ahead
The Commish
Footballguy
And again... conversation was about how the world views trump and his actions..... not how the anti trump people in this country view him and his actions
The Commish
Footballguy
Wondering if anyone is watching the documentary on NatGeo right now. Gives perspective to this most recent conversation
Henry Ford
Footballguy
No, I think he’s sucking up to Kim. Which has a similar response from me.KCitons said:
The Commish
Footballguy
SSDD...only difference is now we don't have people in here setting the bar at "he hasn't fired a missile in X days. we're winning bigly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
The Commish
Footballguy
This thread has given rather large amounts of pushback on what the "big deal" is that the US is giving oxygen to NK's dictator. So I'll just give this particular thought as a last say on the subject from my perspective and it occurred to me as I was running this morning while reading the captions on all the various news outlets on the TVs at the gym. Obviously, everyone's talking about the China vs US trade debacle. Everything was on the screen from Trump is an idiot in over his head to Trump's the second coming and it shows because China is pleading to come back to the negotiating table. However, the one thing that's the same is the visual queues. They all show Trump and the other G7 participants with their fake smiles etc.
Now, imagine in this country, the only thing we were exposed to was the FoxNews version of the events and there was no challenge to their narrative. All those pictures captioned as they saw fit....narratives created as they saw fit. What impact would that have on this country? THAT is why it's dangerous to give oxygen to the dictator who kills his own people. Seeing is believing.
Now, imagine in this country, the only thing we were exposed to was the FoxNews version of the events and there was no challenge to their narrative. All those pictures captioned as they saw fit....narratives created as they saw fit. What impact would that have on this country? THAT is why it's dangerous to give oxygen to the dictator who kills his own people. Seeing is believing.
The Commish
Footballguy
Nice to see UK, France and Germany speaking truth to the situation
I'm old enough to remember when the US would have been on that list
I'm old enough to remember when the US would have been on that list
See, I think you are taking this a step too far. There is no credible evidence that Trump had Epstein killed.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Nice to see UK, France and Germany speaking truth to the situation
I'm old enough to remember when the US would have been on that list
Just a gentle reminder that the UN supported the US in the war in Korea.
timschochet
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
Kim Jong getting a new submarine. Possible this one can launch nuclear missiles.
He is writing wonderful letters with Trump though.
He is writing wonderful letters with Trump though.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
North Korea has announced it now has submarine launches ballistic missile capability.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
So... North Korea used the time when Trump believed he was negotiating to build nuclear launch submarines.
Cool. Cool cool cool.
Cool.
Well, but, really who could have seen that coming?
sho nuff
Footballguy
Trump supporters avoid this thread anyway.
Or we get the “at least he tried” line of bs
Dickies
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Depends where they're getting their tech help to move this fast. If it's from China in part as a result of tariffs and China's work to alleviate any stress from them or from Russia as a result of relaxed scrutiny on their relationship with North Korea, maybe. Lots of other possibilities.
No way of knowing for sure right now.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Probably not but then no other president would have declared that he saved us from nuclear war and tried to sell us that NK's dictator was a great guy.
Dickies
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
Denuclearization talks in Stockholm break down in less than a day, per NK
/theusualsuspects
"Well, at least they tried"
/theusualsuspects
timschochet
Footballguy
Obviously at this point the fear is that Trump will give North Korea whatever it wants in order to proclaim a breakthrough.
Or, conversely, Trump will start making demands of North Korea, threatening a showdown as a means of unifying the public in a nationalist furor.
This the risk of having an unstable head of state completely focused on saving himself.
Or, conversely, Trump will start making demands of North Korea, threatening a showdown as a means of unifying the public in a nationalist furor.
This the risk of having an unstable head of state completely focused on saving himself.
timschochet
Footballguy
The main problem with our approach to North Korea is that we are basically helpless to get them to do anything without China on our side, and the North Koreans know it. And why should China do anything for us, when we are waging economic war against them?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
It’s dumb, and Russia. We’re transactional and invite leverage while completely shrugging off outside support.
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