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North Korea thread (1 Viewer)

Kal El said:
If they hadn't invaded South Korea, their chances of getting bombed like it's going out of style go down significantly. They started the war, they made the choice to give a family of unstable despots power, and they are dealing with the consequences of that decision. 
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We had no choice but to kill millions!  Our hands were tied!  

 
ren hoek said:
Not here to condemn or excuse the US.  I am just stating facts.  We bombed the everliving #### out of NK and killed millions of people.  It led to an extremely militarist and reclusive govt.  That should be accounted for in any comment on their country.  It would probably be a much more normal state of affairs had that not happened.
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When you say that North Korea would be much more normal if we hadn’t bombed them, do you mean they would have been a stable democracy like Germany or Japan? 

 
If you’ve read this far looking for an answer on how Kim Jong Un is doing, I’m sorry to disappoint; reliable evidence remains scant. Of all the carefully protected details about North Korea’s supreme leadership, or suryong, their personal health is one of the most tightly controlled. But we can reason from precedent to some extent: The circumstances of Kim Il Sung’s and Kim Jong Il’s deaths—and how they were handled by the state information apparatus in North Korea—suggest that Kim Jong Un remains alive. That doesn’t rule out the notion that he may still be recovering from a surgery or incapacitated in some way, but it does suggest that Americans should be concerned about what comes after Kim.

Despite North Korea’s reputation for overwhelming secrecy, the deaths of the previous Kims were reported immediately in the case of the first and with a delay of about 48 hours in the case of the second. South Korean and American intelligence first learned of Kim Jong Il’s death when the North Koreans told the world, which should temper any impulse to trust initial reports from state intelligence agencies on Kim Jong Un’s health.

If Kim isn’t dead but incapacitated or otherwise ill, there’s a precedent for that, too—not an especially encouraging one: his father’s 2008 stroke. The North Korean government tried to keep Kim Jong Il’s affliction from leaking to the outside world; since the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, Kim had been especially paranoid about the United States using a moment of perceived weakness in North Korea to invade—hence the secrecy. But efforts to keep Kim’s stroke under wraps failed, in part due to his reliance on a French doctor, Francois-Xavier Roux, to treat him. Roux eventually confirmed that bouts of concerning absences on Kim’s part in 2008—including at a highly significant military parade to commemorate the sixtieth anniversary of North Korea’s founding—were likely due to his stroke, suffered that August.

Accounts of Kim’s well-being got particularly strange around this time. One Japanese “expert” on North Korea went as far as to claim that Kim Jong Il had been dead of diabetes since 2003, and his role had been played for the ensuing half-decade by a series of closely guarded body doubles.
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TNR

 
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Kal El said:
Or more accurately: "We had to defend a fellow UN member from aggression after an enemy army invaded." But, you know, that's only the truth, and who wants that anymore?
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We had to kill millions because of the piece of paper, but we did it regretfully.  😢

 
timschochet said:
When you say that North Korea would be much more normal if we hadn’t bombed them, do you mean they would have been a stable democracy like Germany or Japan? 
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Part of my original statement was our several decades of sanctions on North Korea.  We normalized relations with Germany & Japan after the war.  Not so for NK.  Now we have McDonald's in those countries and we talk and trade with them. 

Again, I don't think it's outlandish at all to think NK would look more democratic had it not been for being bombed to smithereens and blockaded from western financial systems, for decades.  It radicalizes countries whether it pleases our sensibilities or not.  

 
ren hoek said:
Part of my original statement was our several decades of sanctions on North Korea.  We normalized relations with Germany & Japan after the war.  Not so for NK.  Now we have McDonald's in those countries and we talk and trade with them. 
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This is what happened in the 90s under Clinton. It was a standard approach that worked well in Eastern and Central Europe after the fall of the USSR. I'm not "blaming" Bush but it is true that Bush basically unilaterally withdrew from the understandings that had been worked out. They were just thoroughly corrupt, just wanted more money and were used to the Soviet hook. We should have just given it to them. Look at us now.

 
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Good analysis by a Kiwi academic and author, Van Jackson.

If we were better positioned, a succession crisis would give us a chance to favorably stabilize the situation, or at least have good intel. But nobody in North Korea wants to hear a damn thing from us because we're run by "Commander-in-Grief," "Lying King," "Dotard"

The Trump administration lacks the strategic acumen or policy discipline to navigate a succession crisis. Pompeo, for example, though it was a good idea to say their denuclearization policy won't change regardless who's in charge. bravo, idiot.

Civil war is possible. War with a nuclear North Korea is possible. The nightmare WWIII with China is possible. These outcomes hinge partly on decisions we make. Hell of a time to have a president who thinks we should drink disinfectant to cure a virus.
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- Assailing our IC is really coming into play right now.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
ren hoek said:
Part of my original statement was our several decades of sanctions on North Korea.  We normalized relations with Germany & Japan after the war.  Not so for NK.  Now we have McDonald's in those countries and we talk and trade with them. 
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This is what happened in the 90s under Clinton. It was a standard approach that worked well in Eastern and Central Europe after the fall of the USSR. I'm not "blaming" Bush but it is true that Bush basically unilaterally withdrew from the understandings that had been worked out. They were just thoroughly corrupt, just wanted more money and were used to the Soviet hook. We should have just given it to them. Look at us now
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There is also another fundamental difference, there is no peace treaty.

 
timschochet said:
By “normalized relations” , does that mean we won the war and occupied them? 
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It means we didn't wage an economic war against them.  It also means we didn't display a militarist front against them as if war could break out at any given second.  

I'm not saying the Korean monarchy is without fault here.  But does anyone really doubt it'd be a looser dynamic if we'd simply let go of the war games and opened up to trade a long time ago?  

 
ren hoek said:
It means we didn't wage an economic war against them.  It also means we didn't display a militarist front against them as if war could break out at any given second.  

I'm not saying the Korean monarchy is without fault here.  But does anyone really doubt it'd be a looser dynamic if we'd simply let go of the war games and opened up to trade a long time ago?  
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I agree with you about trade. I’m always open to trade. 

But that’s far different from blaming their dictatorship on the Korean War, or on American actions.  That’s absurd. 

 
KJU's train is stationed at the coastal resort town of Wonsan.

Indications that North Korean leader Kim Jong Un is still alive and in the coastal resort of Wonsan are mounting, as satellite images showed his train apparently traveled there in the past few days, and U.S. and South Korean officials said they did not believe he had died.

...

But U.S. and South Korean intelligence services remain skeptical of reports that Kim is dead or gravely ill, according to three government officials familiar with the matter.

“We understand that Chairman Kim Jong Un has been in Wonsan this week,” said a South Korean official who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive intelligence matters.

...

Commercial satellite images published by the 38 North website, affiliated with the Stimson Center, showed what appeared to be Kim’s 250-meter-long personal train at a railway station dedicated to the Kim family in Wonsan on April 21 and 23.

The train was not present on April 15.

“The train’s presence does not prove the whereabouts of the North Korean leader or indicate anything about his health, but it does lend weight to reports that Kim is staying at an elite area on the country’s eastern coast,” Martyn Williams, Peter Makowsky and Jenny Town wrote in their report.

To be sure, something strange is going down in the intensely secretive state.

...

Thae Yong-ho, a former senior North Korean diplomat who defected to the South in 2016, said in a statement it was “unprecedented” that Kim did not appear to lay a wreath at the Kumsusan Palace of the Sun, where his grandfather and father’s bodies are both embalmed.

But the fact that Kim has not been seen in public for two weeks is not in itself unusual — it falls within the “normal range” of absence for the North Korean leader, said Rachel Minyoung Lee, a former North Korea open-source intelligence analyst for the U.S. government.

Indeed, Kim disappeared from public view for three weeks between a Lunar New Year concert on Jan. 25 and a February event at the Kumsusan Palace of the Sun to mark his father’s birthday. He was not seen in public for another 13 days before offering “guidance” for military training on Feb. 28, according to state media reports.

“His absence from the Kumsusan Palace on Kim Il Sung’s birthday was unusual, but that alone is not evidence enough to say Kim Jong Un is in trouble,” Lee said.

...But if Kim were gravely ill, it’s unlikely he would have left the hospital and traveled by train to Wonsan, a distance of over 150 miles. And if he had died and officials wanted to maintain secrecy, it’s unlikely his body would have been transported across the country.

...The Tokyo Shimbun newspaper reported that Kim appears to be undergoing “voluntary isolation” in Wonsan, citing a high-ranking Japanese government official, and quoted North Korean sources as saying he had gone there after one of his bodyguards was found to have the virus. That’s not the sort of thing North Korea would admit publicly, especially given its insistence it has no cases of the virus.

...“Experienced Korea watchers are counseling ‘we don’t know, we have to wait for confirmation, so have another drink,’ ” Klingner said, “while those new to North Korea are taking the rumors at face value and panicking about loss of control of nuclear weapons.”
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IvanKaramazov said:
Can you name a current world problem that, in your view, was not caused either directly or indirectly by the United States?  Unfortunately, I also have to ask that you leave Israel out of this one too.
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Apologies but what a load of bull####. Kim Il Sung was personally installed by Lavrenty Beria, the long time KGB chief under Stalin and one of the world's most notorious totalitarian mass murderers.
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I know I'm several days late on this, but good effing postings.

I "appreciate" ren's posts in a way because they are such a different viewpoint and interesting reading at times, but many times its like a caricature.

 
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As said in the post above, the rumours of Kim's demise were a bit iffy, but Kim showing up on NK state media is also not exactly the definition of sign of life

 
msommer said:
As said in the post above, the rumours of Kim's demise were a bit iffy, but Kim showing up on NK state media is also not exactly the definition of sign of life
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Agreed. He's probably alive, but would think more evidence is needed more than state TV showing video.

 
David Brunnstrom@davidbrunnstrom

Breaking from North Korea’s KCNA: - North Korea says sees no improvement in relations to be made by maintaining relationship between Kim and Trump - N.Korea says will build up more reliable force to confront U.S. military threats

North Korean Foreign Minister Ri Son Gwon said on KCNA U.S. policy proves Washington remains a long-term threat to the North Korean people and Pyongyang will build up more reliable forces to confront U.S. military threats. The comments came on the second anniversary of a summit in Singapore between Donald Trump and Kim Jong Un, the first time a sitting U.S. American president met with a North Korean leader.

Ri said in retrospect the Trump administration appears to have been focusing on only scoring political points while seeking to isolate and suffocate North Korea, and threatening it with preemptive nuclear strikes and regime change. "Never again will we provide the U.S. chief executive with another package to be used for achievements without receiving any returns," he said. "Nothing is more hypocritical than an empty promise." Ri said Pyongyang's desire to open a new cooperative era runs deep as ever, but the situation on the Korean peninsula is daily taking a turn for the worse. "The U.S. professes to be an advocate for improved relations ... but ... is hell-bent on only exacerbating the situation."
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
David Brunnstrom@davidbrunnstrom

Breaking from North Korea’s KCNA: - North Korea says sees no improvement in relations to be made by maintaining relationship between Kim and Trump - N.Korea says will build up more reliable force to confront U.S. military threats

North Korean Foreign Minister Ri Son Gwon said on KCNA U.S. policy proves Washington remains a long-term threat to the North Korean people and Pyongyang will build up more reliable forces to confront U.S. military threats. The comments came on the second anniversary of a summit in Singapore between Donald Trump and Kim Jong Un, the first time a sitting U.S. American president met with a North Korean leader.

Ri said in retrospect the Trump administration appears to have been focusing on only scoring political points while seeking to isolate and suffocate North Korea, and threatening it with preemptive nuclear strikes and regime change. "Never again will we provide the U.S. chief executive with another package to be used for achievements without receiving any returns," he said. "Nothing is more hypocritical than an empty promise." Ri said Pyongyang's desire to open a new cooperative era runs deep as ever, but the situation on the Korean peninsula is daily taking a turn for the worse. "The U.S. professes to be an advocate for improved relations ... but ... is hell-bent on only exacerbating the situation."
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NK got the photo op they've been wanting for years.  This should hold them over with propaganda material to feed their people for decades to come.

 
North Korea bombed inter-Korean liaison office near border amid growing tensions

North Korea admitted Tuesday to bombing an inter-Korean liaison office building just north of the border with South Korea as tensions escalate on the Korean Peninsula.

South Korea’s Unification Ministry, which handles relations with North Korea, confirmed to NBC News that the liaison office in the North Korean border town of Kaesong was demolished “by bombing” on Tuesday afternoon local time.

“We confirm that NK demolished the inter-Korean liaison office in Gaesong Industrial Complex by bombing at 14:49 KST (01:49 ET)," a spokesperson said.

North Korean state news agency, KCNA, also reported Tuesday that the joint liaison office was "completely ruined."

South Korea's national security council has convened a meeting in the wake of the office's destruction, a spokesperson for the country's presidential office told NBC News.

The country's Ministry of Defense said it was monitoring North Korean military movement around the clock and is maintaining “resolute military posture.”

“We are making full effort to manage the situation stably so that the situation does not escalate into a military crisis,” the ministry said in a statement. “If North Korea carries out military provocation, our military will respond with powerful force."

South Korea's vice unification minister, Suh Ho, who co-headed the liaison office, said North Korea's unilateral demolition of the office today was “unprecedented in inter-Korean relations,” calling it “a nonsensical act that should have not happened.”

“We express deep regret and strongly protest against it,” Suh said.

Earlier this month, North Korea threatened to permanently shut the liaison office with South Korea as it condemned its rival for failing to prevent activists from sending anti-North Korean leaflets across the border.

Last week, North Korea cited the same reasons for axing all communications with South Korea, a move analysts believe could be an attempt to manufacture a crisis and force concessions from its neighbor.

Before South Korea's announcement that the liaison office was demolished, KCNA reported Tuesday that North Korea's military threatened to move back into zones that were demilitarized under inter-Korean peace agreements in the past as the country continued to dial up pressure on Seoul amid stalled nuclear negotiations with the Trump administration.

The general staff of the Korean People's Army said it's reviewing a ruling party recommendation to advance into unspecified border areas that had been demilitarized under agreements with the South, which would "turn the front line into a fortress."

On Sunday, South Korea convened an emergency security meeting after North Korean leader Kim Jong Un’s sister, Kim Yo Jong, one of his top aides, threatened military action against South Korea.

In a statement carried Saturday by KCNA, Kim Yo Jong said she would leave the decision to take the next step of retaliation against South Korea to North Korea's military.

She also threatened to demolish the "useless" inter-Korean liaison office at the time.

The timing of North Korea's move to bomb the office is symbolic.

June 15 marked the 20th anniversary of the first inter-Korean summit that resulted in a joint peace declaration, in which the two countries committed to promoting unification, and humanitarian and economic cooperation.
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Have to say, it's nice not having this thread pop up as often as it was when the crazy man was shooting off random ballistic missiles at will.  Though, I"ll say again, I'm not worried about him as much as I am his sister.  

 
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