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QB Case Keenum, HOU (5 Viewers)

Bucky86 said:
So was Keenum awful? I literally traded FOR him this morning. :kicksrock:
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He wasn't great, wasn't awful. He scrambles well and is accurate. But I saw him waiting until guys came open and then throwing the ball which allowed defenders to close on some plays... rather than anticipate the player coming open and throwing it as he starts his break.

The Texans offense was dead in the water for the most part when the change was made. 2nd half they had 4 straight punts, with a trio of them being 3 and out. Schaub came in then and led 3 red zone drives and one 3 and out in 4 possessions. He's not a very good red zone QB though and couldn't punch it in.

Schaub made some poor throws accuracy wise, and threw some balls that could have been picked. But he got rid of the ball quickly, which Case wasn't doing. Oakland had been winning by blitzing but Schaub was getting the ball away quickly to guys with a chance to beat one on one coverage when they tried against him. Raiders quickly adjusted and they started dropping a lot of people into coverage instead. Schaub's statline looks worse, but the offense found life when he came in.

It's a rough situation because you have a coach who needs to win to keep his job potentially. Keenum is still raw and needs time to develop, which makes for a rough pairing. He's got a lot more upside than Schaub with his accuracy and scrambling ability.

 
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no he was fine but the pass protection and blitz pickup was awful. Kubiak decided that Schaub could spark the team, apparently holding Case accountable for not getting rid of the ball quickly enough...which is funny because Schaub has never been held accountable for all his pick sixes and throwing the ball short on 3rd down repeatedly. Kubiak showed his true colors today and his puzzling man-crush on Matt Schaub. The guy is an awful head coach and the whole thing is imploding right in front of our eyes. Hopefully that move will get him fired after the season. It seems obvious to the rest of the world Keenum is a better QB but the OL is trash and the RBs have no clue in blitz pickup. Kubiak should be turning over every stone in an effort to help Case get rid of the ball quicker and to fix the protection issues-not benching the kid for a guy who should never play here again-because the kid makes plays when he has a chance...

 
I would expect that it will be Schaub. At this point I can't see Kubiak going back to Keenum after the benching. Schaub is his guy and just loves him. He was looking for a chance to pull Keenum and jumped at it.

 
Although I will agree that I think the texans had a better chance to win today once Shaub came in, I just think you can do that. It erodes the confidence that fans and maybe the players have in their coach. It hurts the development of Keemun and just seems like it's a genie you can't put back in the bottle.

For fantasy, I would say that all this did today was lower the buying price of Keemun and it is stil a good play if you are patient ( probably better for dynasty guys).

 
Shutout said:
Although I will agree that I think the texans had a better chance to win today once Shaub came in, I just think you can do that. It erodes the confidence that fans and maybe the players have in their coach. It hurts the development of Keemun and just seems like it's a genie you can't put back in the bottle.

For fantasy, I would say that all this did today was lower the buying price of Keemun and it is stil a good play if you are patient ( probably better for dynasty guys).
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Yes, I agree it hurts the long term growth of the team. On the good side, it probably backfires on Kubiak that he did so might hasten him out the door.

 
Shutout said:
Although I will agree that I think the texans had a better chance to win today once Shaub came in, I just think you can do that. It erodes the confidence that fans and maybe the players have in their coach. It hurts the development of Keemun and just seems like it's a genie you can't put back in the bottle.

For fantasy, I would say that all this did today was lower the buying price of Keemun and it is stil a good play if you are patient ( probably better for dynasty guys).
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The texans were 2-7 and maybe kubiak was still thinking they had a chance to make the playoffs no matter how slim if they could pull out the win. That's all i can really think of.

It will be interesting to see who starts next week.

 
The team missed it's window with a great O-line and Foster and Johnson in their primes. O-line not as good, Foster done. It's over. Question is for how long.

 
Meh. Dumb move to bench Keenum. Should have left him in there to struggle to see if he could overcome it. If he couldn't then at least you knew he wasn't the future next year. Now people will be pulling out excuses saying Kube's didn't give him a chance.

Keenum wasn't awful before the benching but he wasnt good either against a bad defense. Guy holds the ball too long and his legs and moxie bail him out. That's better than Schaub can do, but doesn't mean he's the future...

 
Mr. Retukes said:
It feels like Schaub blew his chance at redemption today.
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He did.

I'll add though, he had help. I saw the replays of the end just now. Tate doesn't fumble and I bet he fights into the end zone for the game winner. Then on the final play, the pass looked far worse than it did because Andre Johnson quit on his route. I imagine that frustration at having a chance to redeem himself and coming up short probably contributed to them arguing then.

He had a number of bad throws along the way though. I know he's not played in a few games, but come on, too many throws in the dirt. Hopefully he's gone at the end of the year.

 
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I didn't watch the game, I have no feel for this choice in the context and flow of the game. So with that said....

It screams of a guy who wasn't in touch with his team, and unfortunately due to his condition that may have been exactly the case.

 
That wouldnt have been redemption anyway. The season is lost and Schaub had a big part in it. Whoopee we woulda beat the Raiders in a meaningless game. It felt like Gilligan ending up right back on the island again....at least Keenum is fun to watch. Enough is enough, Kubiaks love for Schaub is disturbing. It really would have sucked to hear Gary brag on Schaub if wed have won. If Kubiak comes back next season Im declaring myself a free agent fan.

 
Kubiak needs to be fired tomorrow. This probably won't happen because of his recent health issue and all, but if he starts Schaub the rest of the year he is setting this franchise back at least a year and maybe more. The Texans need to find out what Case is made of and if he is the guy of the future. The less they find out about him now the worse it is come draft time next year.

If Case is their guy and shows it the rest of the year the Texans are in a great spot to trade down and get some more picks because a lot of teams are going to want to jump up and grab a quarterback. If Case isn't the guy they will be in a great position to grab a quarterback. If Schaub continues to start they find out nothing about Case and they are going into the draft blind about their quarterback spot. Do they have the future guy already on the roster? Do they have to draft the guy? If they draft a guy and he sucks and they deal Case how far does it set it them back?

 
Houston turmOiler said:
That wouldnt have been redemption anyway. The season is lost and Schaub had a big part in it. Whoopee we woulda beat the Raiders in a meaningless game. It felt like Gilligan ending up right back on the island again....at least Keenum is fun to watch. Enough is enough, Kubiaks love for Schaub is disturbing. It really would have sucked to hear Gary brag on Schaub if wed have won. If Kubiak comes back next season Im declaring myself a free agent fan.
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So maybe Kubiak made the shark move?

Winning this game doesn't really make a difference, but losing it gives the Texans a higher draft pick?

Just to be clear:

:sarcasm:

 
:shrug: I started Keenum yesterday, but I am not sure Kubiak made the absolute wrong call here. I think he was simply trying to win the game. When Keenum was pulled he had just gone 3-and-out in the first three possessions of the 2nd half. He was not reacting well to the pressure from the Raiders, and that, in turn, was allowing the Raiders to continue blitzing, and forcing quick throws.

Maybe they should have had a better game-plan to deal with the pressure - more quick passes, screens, roll-outs, etc, but the reality was Keenum was stagnating in the game, and did not appear to be able to move the chains.

Having said that, I think Keenum adds an element with his mobility and moxie that Schaub simply does not have. As many of said, the Texans ought to let him play through these types of games this season (which is already lost) to see what you have, and see if Keenum will grow with the experience. But, in the heat of the game, I can understand what Kubiak was thinking.

 
Houston turmOiler said:
That wouldnt have been redemption anyway. The season is lost and Schaub had a big part in it. Whoopee we woulda beat the Raiders in a meaningless game. It felt like Gilligan ending up right back on the island again....at least Keenum is fun to watch. Enough is enough, Kubiaks love for Schaub is disturbing. It really would have sucked to hear Gary brag on Schaub if wed have won. If Kubiak comes back next season Im declaring myself a free agent fan.
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The Colts would love to have ya!

 
Looking at this from a different viewpoint I will dumb it down and say: Regardless of what people say Keenum is or isn't or what Shaub is or isn't, all I know is, when Keenum plays, Andre Johnson looks like one of the best 5-6 Wrs in the league and when Shaub plays, AJ looks like he instantly ages 5 years. There MUST be something to that, whether its AJ not having faith in Shaub or maybe Shaub just really can't do what Keenum can in terms specific to the Wrs.

I know its not that simple but from a fantasy owner playing a fantasy game, I prefer keenum.

 
I posted this on another site:

Kubiak's time in Houston should be over after this game

And not because of the loss. That part is rather material at this point. He should be unemployed because he plays favorites and holds selective accountability. Schaub plays terrible for 5 games in a row and doesn't get benched until he injures himself. Keenum plays mediocre, not bad mind you, for 2 quarters and gets benched. Not only that Kubiak refused to go for it on 4th down and 1 from the Raider 48 yard line, yet the very next series with Schaub, goes for it on 4th and 2 from the Raider 49 yard line. Exact situations and Kubiak doesn't give Keenum the same confidence he gives Schaub.

Some may say Schaub came in and played a little better than Keenum was playing, but I ask you to replay the playcalling in your mind. Kubiak completely changed the play calling after inserting Schaub. They went to a dink and dunk quick 3 second passing attack, which predictably, resulted in yards and completions yet not TDs.

He benches Tate when he fumbles, pulls Keenum, yet Bullock continues to kick, and the special teams still has the same coach. He is unfit to be a head coach and make decisions that actually will win games.

Oh and theres the matter of Andre finally, FINALLY, getting in Schaub's face after the game. When Andre has finally had enough, its time to clean house.

 
The decision makes no sense.

Kubiac was/is recuperating from a very serious and potentially catastropic illiness.

In the past, Dan Reeves suffered a heart attack and it effected him emotionally afterwards to the point he would weep openly. The same thing happened with **** Vermeal.

IMHO Kubiac should not be coaching right now.

I do not think he is himself right now and may not be for some time.

I was never high on him as a head coach because, well I met him on an airplane back in 1999.

He was still with the Broncos at that time and Denver was in the playoffs but he took time out to interview for the expansion Cleveland Browns head coaching position that was going to open up.

He looked shaken up and it came to light later on that he failed miserably in the interview process because Carmen Policy and former Browns owner Al Lerner grilled him and found out that with the Broncos that even though he was listed as the offensive coordinator that he, called no plays, he did not facilitate or direct any offensive meetings.

The Cleveland media caught up with him right after he got out of the meeting and they asked him why he should be the Browns head coach and I was told he looked down at his shoes and meekly said "I don't know."

I saw him on the airplane and told him 'good luck' getting the Browns HC job and gave him a magazine that had a story about the possible head coaching prospects. Gary was in first class and I was boarding so I went back to my seat and after the flight I checked his seat to see if he took the magazine because if he hadn't I was going to keep it but he took it with him.

After that failure Shanahan gave Gary more responsibilites. Shanny turned over all offensive meeting responsibilities to Gary and he also allowed Gary to call plays, but Shanahan could and did over ride Gary when game situations got tight or whenever Shanny felt compelled to take the wheel.

Ofcourse he did not get the Browns job and it took him years before he got the Texan gig but I still recall how out of sorts Kubiac looked back in 1999 and could never shake that image.

Today I think the Houston front office should kindly take him aside and tell him to convolece from his very serious illness for the remainder of the season.

I was never a big fan of Kubes as a head coach but I certainly wish him no ill intention and right now I don't think he's completely healthy and should not be coaching right now.

 
jsharlan said:
I posted this on another site:

Kubiak's time in Houston should be over after this game

And not because of the loss. That part is rather material at this point. He should be unemployed because he plays favorites and holds selective accountability. Schaub plays terrible for 5 games in a row and doesn't get benched until he injures himself. Keenum plays mediocre, not bad mind you, for 2 quarters and gets benched. Not only that Kubiak refused to go for it on 4th down and 1 from the Raider 48 yard line, yet the very next series with Schaub, goes for it on 4th and 2 from the Raider 49 yard line. Exact situations and Kubiak doesn't give Keenum the same confidence he gives Schaub.

Some may say Schaub came in and played a little better than Keenum was playing, but I ask you to replay the playcalling in your mind. Kubiak completely changed the play calling after inserting Schaub. They went to a dink and dunk quick 3 second passing attack, which predictably, resulted in yards and completions yet not TDs.

He benches Tate when he fumbles, pulls Keenum, yet Bullock continues to kick, and the special teams still has the same coach. He is unfit to be a head coach and make decisions that actually will win games.

Oh and theres the matter of Andre finally, FINALLY, getting in Schaub's face after the game. When Andre has finally had enough, its time to clean house.
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I could probably try to reel you in and counter point a lot of what you said but I gree with your general thought. It IS time for the change and especially given how that all unfolded yesterday. And, if nothing else, AJ doesn't get lippy with anybody so you know its a kettle ready to blow.

 
No way Kubiak comes back. I admittedly didn't watch the game yesterday, but it didn't seem like Keenum was playing that poorly. His completion % was around 50%, had 170/1/1. Not great, but far from terrible. It sounds like Keenum was having problems with dealing with the Raiders' blitzes. Shouldn't the coaches make adjustments to that? Sure I guess you can put some of that on Keenum, but if the OL can't block for him, there's only so much he can do.

Now you've killed the momentum Keenum had. No he wasn't lighting the world on fire, the Texans offense was playing better with him than Schaub. What was the point of putting Schaub in? The season was already shot at 2-7. Why not let Keenum play out the season and see what you have in him? Just doesn't make any sense and Kubiak can look back at this game to see why he was fired.

 
Benching your first round future stud WR for mental mistakes instead of finding a way to correct them on the field is another sign there is poor decision making at the top.

 
lots of good points for the anti-kubiak position, but i think it's not really as sinister as all that. I expect Keenum will be the starter going forward and the reason he got benched is because that was the best way the coaches had to deal with those blitzes. I think Keenum really just wasn't able to adjust and coach didn't have any more answers other than to put schaub in there. someone said earlier that Case tends to wait for the guy to get open before throwing. i'm no expert but that smells right to me, which may have been why he wasn't able to get rid of the ball fast enough. I don't think Kubiak was purposely throwing Keenum under the bus with long developing plays in face of the blitz and then giving dink and dunk plays once Schaub came it; i think Keenum just couldn't get rid of the ball in time for dink and dunk to work so the only answer left was to bring in Schaub.

 
So Kubiak has a problem all along naming Keenum his starter and pulls him at the first opportunity he got...hmmm...doesn't seem so out of blue to me, why you? One has to wonder if loyalty and stubbornness have jaded Kubiak so much that he could find himself looking for another place to coach next year? Sometimes a change of scenery is best for all parties, this may be the case here.

 
Greg Russell said:
Mr. Retukes said:
It feels like Schaub blew his chance at redemption today.
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He did.

...Then on the final play, the pass looked far worse than it did because Andre Johnson quit on his route...
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I thought it was a dumb pass by Schaub because there was a sea of silver and black on Andre. I don't think Andre quit on his route because he probably figured "no way Schaub is going to throw it my direction with the way they're crowding my lane."

Yet Schaub threw it...

 
Okay. I think we have 99.9% agreement that Kubiak's decision to pull Keenum was moronic.

The question now is what does this ##### show look like going forward?

a) Schaub back as permanent starter

b) Keenum as starter but with a quick hook

c) Some college-like QBBC with Kubiak riding the hot hand depending on the flow of the game

From a FF perspective, Houston has a tasty schedule coming up with JAX in two of the next three games so you have to think whoever gets the nod will have some value.

The problem I see with Kubiak is that the playmaking Keenum does REALLY makes Kubiak uncomfortable. Kubiak really isn't focused on end results, he's focused on trying to play QB himself through the guy on the field. Schaub lets him do that by never going outside the box Kubiak has given him.

Keenum is his own guy and therefore Kubiak is inherently unable to trust him with the freedom to use his full abilities.

 
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DanishKings said:
Benching your first round future stud WR for mental mistakes instead of finding a way to correct them on the field is another sign there is poor decision making at the top.
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Must have went to the Coughlin school of hard knocks.

 
ragnarok628 said:
lots of good points for the anti-kubiak position, but i think it's not really as sinister as all that. I expect Keenum will be the starter going forward and the reason he got benched is because that was the best way the coaches had to deal with those blitzes. I think Keenum really just wasn't able to adjust and coach didn't have any more answers other than to put schaub in there. someone said earlier that Case tends to wait for the guy to get open before throwing. i'm no expert but that smells right to me, which may have been why he wasn't able to get rid of the ball fast enough. I don't think Kubiak was purposely throwing Keenum under the bus with long developing plays in face of the blitz and then giving dink and dunk plays once Schaub came it; i think Keenum just couldn't get rid of the ball in time for dink and dunk to work so the only answer left was to bring in Schaub.
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The other side we haven't really discussed when talking about Keenum not being able to handle the blitzing is "What did these coaches prepare this team for all week?" I mean, it is the Raiders. They are not mystifying people with how they operate. THey are on their 3rd QB of the season, without their starting RB or best TE. We know who they are. THe defense has been the same one all year and you have 10 weeks of tape to look at to see what it is they do. But then you get into the game and its like hot gunfire flashing around them so quickly that they can't adjust? Lord knows it wasn't like they didn't have a few minutes between offensive series. They had an eternity since they couldn't get the Raiders off the field. How do you go into this game without at least acontingency plan of max protection if things go a certain way?

 
jsharlan said:
I posted this on another site:

Kubiak's time in Houston should be over after this game

And not because of the loss. That part is rather material at this point. He should be unemployed because he plays favorites and holds selective accountability. Schaub plays terrible for 5 games in a row and doesn't get benched until he injures himself. Keenum plays mediocre, not bad mind you, for 2 quarters and gets benched. Not only that Kubiak refused to go for it on 4th down and 1 from the Raider 48 yard line, yet the very next series with Schaub, goes for it on 4th and 2 from the Raider 49 yard line. Exact situations and Kubiak doesn't give Keenum the same confidence he gives Schaub.

Some may say Schaub came in and played a little better than Keenum was playing, but I ask you to replay the playcalling in your mind. Kubiak completely changed the play calling after inserting Schaub. They went to a dink and dunk quick 3 second passing attack, which predictably, resulted in yards and completions yet not TDs.

He benches Tate when he fumbles, pulls Keenum, yet Bullock continues to kick, and the special teams still has the same coach. He is unfit to be a head coach and make decisions that actually will win games.

Oh and theres the matter of Andre finally, FINALLY, getting in Schaub's face after the game. When Andre has finally had enough, its time to clean house.
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you have to wonder if Schaub was hurt would Keenum have had the success he did if Kubiak were still coaching...probably not. It really makes zero sense to give Schaub another shot, he's the past and not the future...Keenum probably isn't the future but you might as well give him a few more games to see...

 
Odd benching. Keenum wasn't playing as well as he did games his first 3 starts but the defense wasn't exactly stopping McGloin or Jennings

 
ragnarok628 said:
lots of good points for the anti-kubiak position, but i think it's not really as sinister as all that. I expect Keenum will be the starter going forward and the reason he got benched is because that was the best way the coaches had to deal with those blitzes. I think Keenum really just wasn't able to adjust and coach didn't have any more answers other than to put schaub in there. someone said earlier that Case tends to wait for the guy to get open before throwing. i'm no expert but that smells right to me, which may have been why he wasn't able to get rid of the ball fast enough. I don't think Kubiak was purposely throwing Keenum under the bus with long developing plays in face of the blitz and then giving dink and dunk plays once Schaub came it; i think Keenum just couldn't get rid of the ball in time for dink and dunk to work so the only answer left was to bring in Schaub.
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ok but why wouldn't the team they play next week do the same thing if it worked this week. It's part of developing as a QB...teams are going to try different things to stop your success and if you just pull the plug when there's an issue you can't get better.

 
I am pretty sure he still thought they could run the table and hadn't thrown the towel in on the season. He trusts Schaub more and that's who he wanted to go down with.

Sadly, the fact that he thinks Schaub gives them the best chance to win shows he does not belong in the head chair but I suspect we will see Keenum going forward even if the owner or gm have to make that call.

The fans want to see Keenum and now that Kubiak can no longer think they have a shot he will be in there. I cant imagine them continuing to run Schaub out there.

 
Houston turmOiler said:
Case to start according to Kubiak in his presser hes holding right now
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Thank you. I reeeally need me some Keenum.

(In a keeper league I picked up Keenum Saturday, putting Locker on IR and traded Dalton for Rogers in a roll of the dice...)

 
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