Milkman
Footballguy
I'll tell you what I tell other people that are being purposely disingenuous. You should grab West if you believe in him. He's probably on your WW.
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Charcandrick WEST - Should we be talking about this kid ? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Casting Couch
- Start date
LawFitz
Footballguy
Milkman putting too much emphasis on recency, esp given that recency was preseason football.
That said I'll be starting Ware week 1 against SD if West sits or is limited. Maybe even if West is healthy. Decent upside for TDs in this matchup.
After week 1, however the schedule is rough for 3 weeks and then the bye. Then the prospect of a healthy Charles and/or West. Maybe Ware's best use is wk 2 trade bait if he rumbles week 1.
That said I'll be starting Ware week 1 against SD if West sits or is limited. Maybe even if West is healthy. Decent upside for TDs in this matchup.
After week 1, however the schedule is rough for 3 weeks and then the bye. Then the prospect of a healthy Charles and/or West. Maybe Ware's best use is wk 2 trade bait if he rumbles week 1.
Chaka
Footballguy
I'm sorry but did you think we were having a WDIS conversation? Or Who Would I Start as the case may be?
We weren't.
Milkman
Footballguy
I don't know what you were talking about I was stating KC showed who is second on the depth chart and it's not West. They also showed they plan to use Ware on 3rd downs. If you think differently you should scoop up West. He's not valued nearly as much.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Good point, but being more thread centric, and this being a C West thread,
Lets do a : Starting C West over _________ ...
I'll start, 13 leagues, no one.
bud29
Footballguy
Ware really focused on improving his pass-catching and turning into a 3-down RB this offseason, and from the small sample we've seen, he's looked OK. Given Ware's superior running, the KC coaching staff may have less of a reason to take him off the field this year.
Also, if you're a believer in PFF's grading, the big divide in receiving talent was overblown from the get-go. West's receiving score last season was 53.1, while Ware's was 50.5 - both near the bottom of the league. On the other hand, Ware was top-10 in the "rushing" category, while West was simply above average. Now does this mean Ware will automatically be the workhorse with Charles out? Obviously not, but there's good reason for him being the preferred handcuff.
Also, if you're a believer in PFF's grading, the big divide in receiving talent was overblown from the get-go. West's receiving score last season was 53.1, while Ware's was 50.5 - both near the bottom of the league. On the other hand, Ware was top-10 in the "rushing" category, while West was simply above average. Now does this mean Ware will automatically be the workhorse with Charles out? Obviously not, but there's good reason for him being the preferred handcuff.
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cantstop1999
Footballguy
Can't wait to revisit this after the game, West will be involved. Milkman doesn't think so. We will see.
Milkman
Footballguy
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Milkman
Footballguy
Love how the goal post gets moved here. Never said he wouldn't be involved. Matter of fact I believe I said 5-10 carries probably closer to 5 with a catch or two. Nice try though. I'll consider that you conceding.
Yeah I think Ware gets the Lions share and West spells him. West is just a guy. Ware is special.
That's ^^^^^^ my position. In writing. Lol
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cantstop1999
Footballguy
Milkman
Footballguy
cantstop1999
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
But Ware is listed as #2 at fullback....KC actually lists West as 2nd on the official depth chart. Ware is 3rd.
groin pains
Footballguy
This Ware hype train has gone way too far. I understand that preseason can be telling on how one player may be used over another. Although, discounting the fact that West was in fact injured for the majority of preseason can be be a huge mistake if in fact he is healthy and active week 1. Not reading too much into the most recent depth chart released by the Chiefs, but it also has West ahead of Ware. I fully expect Ware to start if in fact Charles is inactive. Although, I don expect him to be the "bell cow."
Cold Dead Hands
Footballguy
groin pains
Footballguy
Just curious if you are sticking with your 5-10 predictions? Ware's hype train only gained so much steam because of an injury to West. I was never here to knock Ware. I always maintained, in my opinion, that Ware would not be the work horse many predicted him to be. Now there are rumblings that West may even start.
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Milkman
Footballguy
ponchsox
Footballguy
mnmplayer
Footballguy
I think it's time to bump this. 
So roles have reversed this year as compared to 2015. If you recall, in 2015 West beat out all other RBs on the team when JC went down and took over the starting job last season. Once he had the job West preceded to dominate with elite RB production as the starter for 3 games before going down to injury in his 4th game. Ware stepped in to replace him and never gave the job back and has been uber productive for almost a full calendar year now. He must have worked hard on pass catching skills in the off season because, unlike last year he is now a dual threat back who can catch passes on long routes and already had impressive talent running the ball. Ware has had the starting job for half the year in 2016 and has been productive, but now might miss his first game, with West now healthy and waiting in the wings. I don't think Knile Davis or Sankey are legitimate threats at this point, but that could change I suppose, though not likely. There are 5 possible outcomes I see:
1. West steps in and goes off, meanwhile Ware stays in protocol for multiple weeks and West takes over. (least likely)
2. West fails to be effective and Ware still can't get healthy, but when he does come back the job is his. (not very likely)
3. Ware comes back as the starter this week and its just a scare. (not likely) Grab West if you can for insurance either way.
4. West does great for one game, then Ware comes back and everything is just the same as it was. (more likely than the previous 3)
5. West does enough to get more carries going forward for one or possibly more games, but its still Ware's job when he gets back, just not as valuable as before as West earns a percentage of snaps as he did earlier in the season. West's value is really only for one game, aside from being a high value handcuff or possible flex, but Ware's value diminishes too. (more likely than the previous 4)
West weekly snap counts first 8 weeks:
48%, 41%, 22%, 0%(West inj), bye, 0%,27%,57% (Ware inj)
Analysis:
The odd thing about all this is West getting injured earlier this season actually helps him now, because they had to rush JC back before they should have as the #2 RB for the games West couldn't play. This made everyone realize that JC isn't right for certain now as his knees swelled up after just a few carries and he is going to see Andrews which 9 times out of 10 is the kiss of death for fantasy value.
This news cleared a path to pick up West last week as the clear #2 for the remainder of the season. Astute owners probably already have West on their team so won't be in a bidding war for West this week, but if he is available I think its worth going after him pretty hard considering how quiet KC has been on Ware and how they have treated concussions in the past, especially since the microscope is on KC with how they possibly mishandled the whole Alex Smith concussion situation. It makes sense for KC to sit Ware this week even if he passes protocol imo, and that isn't even confirmed yet.
The other thing is it's not clear if West would have kept his snap percentage up in the 40% range if he stayed healthy. Had West never been injured and his snap counts remained in the 40% range, Ware owners would not be so confident. However, if West never got injured, and his snap counts dwindled to 0%, it would be obvious how KC felt about the RB job. evaluation wise
Ware's performance has been great this year (I am an owner), but he still had some bad games production wise, was also stinking it up vs IND before going down (as far as stats, haven't seen the game yet so jury still out) and has shown he has some problem areas in holding on to the ball. West performed without blemish in his starting role. To be honest, we don't know the team evaluations, but West did win the job back in 2015 and it took an injury for him to lose his job. KC had evaluated him highly enough to surpass Knile Davis which was surprising last season when West supplanted him as the cuff. If West never got injured in 2015 we may not have even known what Ware was capable of doing. I'm not saying West is better than Ware, but as ware owner, I am taking note of West as a potential spoiler long term to his value, even if its not the most likely scenario.
It's an interesting situation. What do you guys think?
So roles have reversed this year as compared to 2015. If you recall, in 2015 West beat out all other RBs on the team when JC went down and took over the starting job last season. Once he had the job West preceded to dominate with elite RB production as the starter for 3 games before going down to injury in his 4th game. Ware stepped in to replace him and never gave the job back and has been uber productive for almost a full calendar year now. He must have worked hard on pass catching skills in the off season because, unlike last year he is now a dual threat back who can catch passes on long routes and already had impressive talent running the ball. Ware has had the starting job for half the year in 2016 and has been productive, but now might miss his first game, with West now healthy and waiting in the wings. I don't think Knile Davis or Sankey are legitimate threats at this point, but that could change I suppose, though not likely. There are 5 possible outcomes I see:
1. West steps in and goes off, meanwhile Ware stays in protocol for multiple weeks and West takes over. (least likely)
2. West fails to be effective and Ware still can't get healthy, but when he does come back the job is his. (not very likely)
3. Ware comes back as the starter this week and its just a scare. (not likely) Grab West if you can for insurance either way.
4. West does great for one game, then Ware comes back and everything is just the same as it was. (more likely than the previous 3)
5. West does enough to get more carries going forward for one or possibly more games, but its still Ware's job when he gets back, just not as valuable as before as West earns a percentage of snaps as he did earlier in the season. West's value is really only for one game, aside from being a high value handcuff or possible flex, but Ware's value diminishes too. (more likely than the previous 4)
West weekly snap counts first 8 weeks:
48%, 41%, 22%, 0%(West inj), bye, 0%,27%,57% (Ware inj)
Analysis:
The odd thing about all this is West getting injured earlier this season actually helps him now, because they had to rush JC back before they should have as the #2 RB for the games West couldn't play. This made everyone realize that JC isn't right for certain now as his knees swelled up after just a few carries and he is going to see Andrews which 9 times out of 10 is the kiss of death for fantasy value.
This news cleared a path to pick up West last week as the clear #2 for the remainder of the season. Astute owners probably already have West on their team so won't be in a bidding war for West this week, but if he is available I think its worth going after him pretty hard considering how quiet KC has been on Ware and how they have treated concussions in the past, especially since the microscope is on KC with how they possibly mishandled the whole Alex Smith concussion situation. It makes sense for KC to sit Ware this week even if he passes protocol imo, and that isn't even confirmed yet.
The other thing is it's not clear if West would have kept his snap percentage up in the 40% range if he stayed healthy. Had West never been injured and his snap counts remained in the 40% range, Ware owners would not be so confident. However, if West never got injured, and his snap counts dwindled to 0%, it would be obvious how KC felt about the RB job. evaluation wise
Ware's performance has been great this year (I am an owner), but he still had some bad games production wise, was also stinking it up vs IND before going down (as far as stats, haven't seen the game yet so jury still out) and has shown he has some problem areas in holding on to the ball. West performed without blemish in his starting role. To be honest, we don't know the team evaluations, but West did win the job back in 2015 and it took an injury for him to lose his job. KC had evaluated him highly enough to surpass Knile Davis which was surprising last season when West supplanted him as the cuff. If West never got injured in 2015 we may not have even known what Ware was capable of doing. I'm not saying West is better than Ware, but as ware owner, I am taking note of West as a potential spoiler long term to his value, even if its not the most likely scenario.
It's an interesting situation. What do you guys think?
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SameSongNDance
Footballguy
All. of. my. FAAB.
LBH
Footballguy
Milkman
Footballguy
West hasn't outplayed Ware for 10+ games. No reason to put a player in for more snaps that is performing at a lower level. Teams typically don't do it. Ware jumped West for a reason. He's better in every aspect.
Lol at all the West slappies itt.
Lol at all the West slappies itt.
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Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
Charles officially to IR.
Shutout
Footballguy
Why? When Charles was not playing, West is worthless when ware is playing? I guess I'm asking do you want to spend all your faab on what could easily be a zero to one week play or have you heard something to suggest ware is going to be out?
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
I should have prefaced that with "I own Ware everywhere.".
West doesnt have much value assuming a healthy Ware.
beerbuff
Footballguy
I agree with the WHY part. Unless you don't have much left in your FAAB budget left but I would think there are a whole lot of other guys who could be just as good for the rest of season out there on the waiver wire that wont cost you your whole budget...i.e. Hightower, Sproles, Starks, and maybe even Dixon at this point in the season, West could have a great game this week but then he'll be #2 in a RBBC when Ware comes back (which still might even be this week) so why go all in for him.
Milkman
Footballguy
Hey we have one of the most efficient RB's in the league let's make sure and put a RB that's never been as efficient in more to get the ball "out" of that guys hands.
Makes sense.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
With all due respect, your response shows that you didn't actually read the 5 scenarios. The 5th one assumes that "West does enough to get more carries going forward for one or possibly more games, but its still Ware's job when he gets back, just not as valuable as before as West earns a percentage of snaps as he did earlier in the season. West's value is really only for one game, aside from being a high value handcuff or possible flex, but Ware's value diminishes too. (more likely than the previous 4)"
I think that's totally plausible, and with a concussion and along season ahead, can see if Reid sprinkles West in more if he does really well in a game or two in relief of a concussed Ware going forward to 1) keep Ware fresh and 2) take advantage of a skillset of a back who was fantastic in relief last year.
Milkman
Footballguy
Lol nice reading comprehension yourself.......you don't lighten loads of elite RB to get the ball in a Jag's hands.
There is a path for West to get more carries moving forward besides an injury to Ware though. If Ware keeps fumbling then we could see West get 40% or more of the carries. Nothing else makes much sense because Ware is that much better than West.
There is a path for West to get more carries moving forward besides an injury to Ware though. If Ware keeps fumbling then we could see West get 40% or more of the carries. Nothing else makes much sense because Ware is that much better than West.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
I read and comprehended but the original point was that if West performs well in relief or Ware (and again there is history of him putting up great numbers doing so already, your statement of West being an RB that's never been as efficient isn't accurate), regardless of who you might feel is the more elite/productive back, it makes absolute sense for Reid to use West more. It means more durability for Ware and utilizing two solid players who can shine when given the opportunity.
And we've seen this happen a lot in the NFL.
Milkman
Footballguy
Lol Ware has been outperforming West for nearly a year. West is nowhere near as effective at the GL, in between the tackle, or in the passing game as Ware. where you see RB's sharing loads is when there isn't a big gap in productivity. That is certainly not the case here. Is Williams lightening the load for Bell? Is Ellington lightening through load for David Johnson? There's that big of a difference in skill level here.
It's not happening barring injury or fumbles.
It's not happening barring injury or fumbles.
McGarnicle
Footballguy
Damn. Glad I grabbed him Sunday morning for $1. Still really hope Ware plays but the insurance is nice.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Milkman
Footballguy
I see what you're saying but it hasn't been the case up to this point. If he goes full ####### then congrats West owners you have a Flex starter.
Shutout
Footballguy
cheekily said but true. Reid has been remarkably "un-Reid" like with Ware and maybe that attests to Ware's all-around ability and doesn't give Reid a chance to second-guess as much but in the end if West does come up big and carve out a role, it will be a loss for both more than a gain for West because it will cause flip-flop-itis and lessen the ability to trust either.
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
KC's coaching staff probably gets as giddy as I do when they go back an watch the coaches film on Ware. They are fully aWare that they have a better shot at winning when he is on the field. His highlight reel this year is going to be glorious.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Blind bids due tonight. Im as baffled on what to do here as Ive ever been...
kittenmittens
Footballguy
98% of the league is JAGs... JAGs with opportunities have value, sometimes more than studs without opportunities. I also agree that Andy Reid can't be trusted and that Ware is wayyyyy better than West.
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Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Was never here to defend West above Ware, NFL football is a game of momentum and "juice" and that clearly lies with Ware right now. But your continuous and erroneous overlooking West as JAG isn't borne out by the actual data. They are definitely not huge gaps in talent and performance as you aver.
West took over starting duties Week 7 of last year when JC went down. He played as the full starter until Week 11 when he dinged his hammy, with Ware and Davis picking up the slack from there. Again, until he was injured himself, the team thought West had the talent and skill to be their starter over Ware (and Knile Davis). I think that says something.
And arguably West lived up to those expectations. In those games he started before getting injured, West racked up just under 300 yards with 3 TDs, and another 184 through the air. He was actually used more heavily than Ware is in terms of attempts per game (19.3 to Ware's 14.6 this season) and was a little more targeted and involved in the pass game (4.5 targets/game to Ware's 3.3).
West had more rushing TDs in a shorter span (3 to Ware's 2 so far) and has the same number of receiving TDs (1 a piece).
In terms of the efficiency you cited, Ware has the edge at 5 YPC, but West's 3.8 during his stretch isn't poor by any stretch, and both players have the same rush YPG at 73. In terms of receiving they are pretty similar overall as well -- Ware with 18.4 yards per catch to West's 16.7 during his starting period, and nearly the same receiving yards per game (2.4 to West's 2.75).
I don't mind your bombastic statements full of hyperbole -- this is a message board, after all, prone to all types of spouting off their version of the truth with brash conjecture and supposition. But I prefer those that are actually based on a degree of fact, rather than just pure sentiment. Maybe it's expecting too much.
McGarnicle
Footballguy
If I owned Ware and no teams look screwed at RB this week, I'd bid around 5-10%. It would make no sense for another owner to break the bank for a player who may not start this week and isn't his player's handcuff. Possible exceptions would be if this week's opponent has a lot of money left and might try to snipe him from you, or if an owner is just decimated at RB.Cowboysfan8 said:
If you're bidding against the Ware owner, bump it up appropriately. I like to check each team's roster, budget and bidding history to make an educated guess.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I own Miller, Ware, Gio, Crowell , Blue and Rawls.
I have to start Crowell this week and if Ware doesn't play I'm going to need a rb. But I dont want to break the bank for a guy that may only play 1 wk obviously.
I have 72% of bb $ left.
I think I'm going to go about 15 and put a few small bids in on Antone, Perkins etc in casr I'm outbid on West ( pretty sure I will be)
