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You didnt answer these: Also why do you believe there are fatherless homes? What would you say is the root cause of this? Where are these fathers going?
I agree with this. In theory. However, the problematic part of this is that a disproportionate number of certain races are the ones in the lower classes with less privilege. So if we cant address that, then we are ignoring the issue, which does in fact have to do with race. That is why it is being brought up.
The CDC study seems to condract all other studies. The CDC does some tricky logic comparing fathers in similar situations. I am not even sure what qualified the Center for Disease Control to do studies on families. But all the media eats up this one study up and declares thst it somehow dubunks all other studies.
Yea. I mean look, i think we can all agree having both parents in a home is always best. But i do not think that is the root issue. You do so we will agree to disagree on that point. But i want to understand more about why you think this is a root issue. Which is why i asked what you feel is the cause of this? Forget the stats and all that. What is causing fathers to leave or not be present? Where do you feel they are going? What do you feel can be done to address this? If this concerns you so much i would think you would be concerned with the causes as that is where we would need to look to fix the issue.
Just to go back to stats for second, when they go into prisions and do surveys they see being in a fatherless household is like 10 times more likily. So there is a very strong correlation. What compounds it though is the extreme peer pressure that exists in the inner city. The lack of a father in the household is critical in keeping a kid from succuming to such strong external influences. In the suburbs, on the otherhand, the peer pressure is not that intense and single mom has a chance.
Ok. Im with you here. But my questions would be, why are a disproportionate number of black people living in the inner city? What is preventing them from leaving? Why are a disproportionate number going to prison? Or being convicted in higher numbers, etc.
It is a combination of history and comfort. There were historical segregationist polices which forced it. But even with those removed people are more comfortable being around people like themselves. There are still economical chains which contribute, but I just wish that more would break out.
I hear ya man, but what I hear now in the national conversation is just "race = privilege" without any consideration of class as a factor. I think that's a mistake, because skin color doesn't mean that you're part of a monolithic group with one identity and experience, and it doesn't necessarily automatically confer specific privileges on you at all times or even at the same levels. Lower and lower-middle class citizens have far more similar life experiences and experience many more of the same problems and hardships - regardless of color - than we're currently being led to believe or that is currently being discussed.
One of the few times we might agree. I have no problem with this to try and discourage the violence/looting.
We disagree on this. Skin color does automatically grant/revoke privileges. That is very true. Alot of this has to do with bias because again, you dont know someones class or wealth by just looking at them. You do know their race. I don't understand however why this bothers people. Just because you have certain privileges doesn't mean you are bad or guaranteed success in life. It also doesnt mean you are racist. It does mean however there are certain things that you do not have to deal with that others do. But again thats not to say a white person cant struggle more than a black person, of course they can. But even with the struggles there are still certain privileges they hold.
So you are admitting there are policies and "economical chains" which make it more difficult to move from the inner city or ghettos. Those are the reasons not everyone can just "break out." When you literally have entire systems making it extremely hard to do this, whether that is someone showing you a house, getting a mortgage, a neighborhood making it known they dont want you there, its not as simple as just "breaking out."
a lot to unpack here, and I'm about to go for a run so can't do a long response right now. But Pinky my man, I think we're talking past each other on this a little bit - I never said we should ignore race and focus on just class. I do believe class is actually a bigger and more impactful divider and barometer of privilege than race in this country, but what I'm saying is not "take race out of it and talk solely about class" - I'm saying why can't we talk about both? I think it's disingenuous to have a discussion of racial privileges without considering class and how that also plays into it. (Edit: but I agree with your premise of certain racial privileges being created through inherent bias to an extent.)
Good convo and i think we are in agreement on most of this. I do however think in most cases, at least in my experience people are involving class in the discussion even if not the bulk of it. I just dont think its the root of the problem. You could argue that there will always be a class issue. And i do have an issue with wealth inequality in general. That is a problem. However who is that problem largely impacting? The main issue i see is:
This right here is a HUGE problem that sits at the root of many issues we are seeing today. It has been there since slavery ended and has never been addressed. Ignoring it hasnt worked nor will it. Im not saying you are ignoring it, but many people would prefer we just get over it and ignore it.
Another way to look at this that maybe might help some comprehend the scope of the inequality is to just pick any other physical characteristic.
What does that have to do with being white?
The guy who inherited a couple of hundred million dollars, whose father illegally loaned his son's casinos money etc etc, denied white privilege exists?
That's gonna carry a lot of weight
PS we agree that "white previledge" doesn't exist, but that's because it is misspelled
You are missing the point. Context matters. @JAA stated that if cops are held accountable it will stop what we are seeing(protesting for example). Which is true. And yes police shooting unarmed citizens is more important to address than non police.
It really isn't. As a society, we generally understand that criminals exist, that crime exists, and that sometimes crimes will affect us. We create laws and empower law enforcement in an attempt to deter, punish, and prevent crimes, but we all understand that it will still happen. It is a significantly different event when those who are empowered and trusted to enforce the laws use that power to both break the laws themselves and escape the consequences of breaking the laws. That applies whether we're talking about police, prosecutors, or politicians.
You act as if crime is just the same everywhere. And you act as if dealing with crime from a law enforcement perspective happens in a vacuum where they should function as if crime is the same across the board.Rich Conway said:
I don't think crime is the same everywhere. I do think there are a ton of examples of "those we entrust" breaking laws and/or abusing their power to avoid the consequences of breaking laws (and/or abusing their power to allow their friends to avoid the consequences of breaking laws). I'm including police, prosecutors, politicians, etc. here, and I'm not particularly focused on "police killings" specifically.
I agree that corrupt politicians and cops need to be addressed more strongly, and that our justice system needs reform, but it's hard for me to agree with this assertion, man. Crimes like rape or murder are way worse than any abuse of power or trust (unless that abuse also results in rape or death).
no man, that's one I definitely don't want to ignore. I personally would 100% support a plan for reparations to any black American who can prove slave ancestry, if someone would develop and propose one that's clearly and coherently laid out and makes some kind of actual fiscal sense. And I think at this point in history more white Americans would vote for that type of plan than would vote against.PinkydaPimp said:
But we have righted that wrong - thru the Civil Rights Act, for one, and abolishing Democrat Jim Crowe laws as another. There are also numerous examples where we give minorities (especially black people) preference in public jobs and education with grants and all kind of other support.
well, I would agree there has been a lot of racial progress in this country, and I think that people who act like this is the most racist place in the world are very, very naive. The people of this country have continually tried to improve in that area over the years since the Civil War and things are generally a lot better now than at anytime in our history. And compared to the vast majority of the rest of the world we're certainly leaders on that - I don't know of any other country with a large racially mixed population like the USA where there is less racism and discrimination, and there's quite a bit more racism in almost every place you care to visit.
We have been through this. Do you think the civil rights act just ended all impact of those laws and centuries of oppression? Remember when slavery was abolished? Did that immediately solve things? It doesn't work like that. Sure certain laws were abolished. That doesnt mean that there arent lasting impacts to our systems that essentially result in the same oppression as those laws. Hell schools by law were desegregated in 1965 yet the last school to be desegregated was 4 years ago!! History and facts say you are wrong. Or trolling.
ha, no worries man, probably 99% of my posting is nonsense. I admit I might be way off in my thinking there and I know a lot of people will disagree with what I said.
It will help black people, for sure in the short term and to a lesser extent in the long term (giving anybody money will help them). There is no chance it meaningfully changes "white guilt" or "black anger".
not completely, no - there will always be some degree of racial tension because the vast majority of humans tend to be inherently racist. But you don't think that addressing slavery directly with a specific program to try to repair that damage - something the US has never officially done - would at least remove a large portion of the anger and guilt around that part of our history?
Nope, not a chance. I have no faith in our citizens on the whole union unfortunately, black or white.
ha, I share your lack of faith in people. Three years during college working a retail job throughly exterminated any grand ideas I used to have about the inherent goodness of humanity.
Your hearts in the right place. And to be clear, my position here isnt that reparations wouldn't help black people or even that they are "right". They would help and the the "rightness" of it is a different discussion.
I hate to rain on your guy's parade, but I'm just not that hopeful. It will NEVER be enough. The race hustlers looking for payouts will always be screaming "RACISM" to get the next check and/or votes.
a never ending cycle, kind of like systemic racism perhaps?BladeRunner said:
