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Dynasty Value Discussion Thread (9 Viewers)

On that list, once you get to RB4, it is about a full round difference. And a very notable difference at the RB2 and RB3 level.

If someone compared these numbers to draft capital numbers you could do an average draft capital difference between the two time periods. It would likely make the difference appear even more dramatic. That is the hypothesis I would want to test. But I have other #### to do right now. Ha!
I think it's worth pointing out that those classes were at the high end even for the time.  2008 for instance had 11 players selected in the first 3 rounds which is the most over a 20 year period.  Almost all of the years bookending the study years (2003, 2004, 2009, 2010) had literally half that many.

Likewise 2016, as one of the worst RB classes of the last 20 years outside of Zeke, really destroys the averages for the 2016-2018 set of data.

 
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I'd really like to find top 10 RB salaries by year and compute the % of the cap. I think that would be telling, too.
Franchise tags is a good way of looking at how they are valued.  Here are the 2018 numbers.  

Quarterback – $23.189 million

Offensive line – $14.077 million

Defensive tackle – $13.939 million

Linebacker – $14.961 million

Cornerback -  $14.975 million

Running Back - $11.866 million

Safety - $11.287 million

Tight end – $9.846 million

Kicker/Punter – $4.939 million

 
Here's the amount of draft value spent on RB over each 5-year period, according to the Jimmy Johnson draft value chart:

2014-2018    4214
2009-2013    3732
2004-2008    6041
1999-2003    5367
1994-1998    7253
1989-1993    7585
1984-1988    7705
1979-1983    10836
1974-1978    10265
1969-1973    9572

Here's how it looks on a graph, basically just a straight line sloping downward for the past 50 years.

 
Here's the amount of draft value spent on RB over each 5-year period, according to the Jimmy Johnson draft value chart:

2014-2018    4214
2009-2013    3732
2004-2008    6041
1999-2003    5367
1994-1998    7253
1989-1993    7585
1984-1988    7705
1979-1983    10836
1974-1978    10265
1969-1973    9572

Here's how it looks on a graph, basically just a straight line sloping downward for the past 50 years.
But relatively flat since the 1990s.

 
But relatively flat since the 1990s.
Not really. The past decade (2009-2018) spent 70% as much draft value on RB as the decade before (1999-2008), which in turn spent only 77% as much as the decade before that (1989-1998). 4 of the 5 lightest RB draft have happened within the past decade.

 
Not really. The past decade (2009-2018) spent 70% as much draft value on RB as the decade before (1999-2008), which in turn spent only 77% as much as the decade before that (1989-1998). 4 of the 5 lightest RB draft have happened within the past decade.
Should I have said "comparatively flat" instead?  All I meant is that the rate of decrease has slowed down.  The trend is still downwards, but the slope is far flatter.

 
What has changed in LA Rams Offense to result in multiple trade offers for Robert Woods in my 2 leagues?   He is 1 of the few players I have in both teams and I cannot find any recent news or reports that would indicate any real change in his value.  Most rankings have him WR 18-22 range with Kupp 20-24 while B Cooks still floats 10-15 range.  Can the offense still support 3 Top 25 WR?  Is the knee issue with Gurley really causing this much activity for the LAR WR's?  There is no real TE threat there but maybe there is something going on @ Draft rumors that LAR will do something to change their value?  Maybe B Cooks gets traded again... (jk).  

I like Woods.  I like him long term over Kupp, but when you get 7 offers in 2 leagues for the same player, I have to wonder what I missed?  

 
What has changed in LA Rams Offense to result in multiple trade offers for Robert Woods in my 2 leagues?   He is 1 of the few players I have in both teams and I cannot find any recent news or reports that would indicate any real change in his value.  Most rankings have him WR 18-22 range with Kupp 20-24 while B Cooks still floats 10-15 range.  Can the offense still support 3 Top 25 WR?  Is the knee issue with Gurley really causing this much activity for the LAR WR's?  There is no real TE threat there but maybe there is something going on @ Draft rumors that LAR will do something to change their value?  Maybe B Cooks gets traded again... (jk).  

I like Woods.  I like him long term over Kupp, but when you get 7 offers in 2 leagues for the same player, I have to wonder what I missed?  
What was the best offer you got for him? 

 
What has changed in LA Rams Offense to result in multiple trade offers for Robert Woods in my 2 leagues?   He is 1 of the few players I have in both teams and I cannot find any recent news or reports that would indicate any real change in his value.  Most rankings have him WR 18-22 range with Kupp 20-24 while B Cooks still floats 10-15 range.  Can the offense still support 3 Top 25 WR?  Is the knee issue with Gurley really causing this much activity for the LAR WR's?  There is no real TE threat there but maybe there is something going on @ Draft rumors that LAR will do something to change their value?  Maybe B Cooks gets traded again... (jk).  

I like Woods.  I like him long term over Kupp, but when you get 7 offers in 2 leagues for the same player, I have to wonder what I missed?  
No idea. Fwiw I have him in a very active league and haven't received any offers for him recently. 

 
What has changed in LA Rams Offense to result in multiple trade offers for Robert Woods in my 2 leagues?   He is 1 of the few players I have in both teams and I cannot find any recent news or reports that would indicate any real change in his value.  Most rankings have him WR 18-22 range with Kupp 20-24 while B Cooks still floats 10-15 range.  Can the offense still support 3 Top 25 WR?  Is the knee issue with Gurley really causing this much activity for the LAR WR's?  There is no real TE threat there but maybe there is something going on @ Draft rumors that LAR will do something to change their value?  Maybe B Cooks gets traded again... (jk).  

I like Woods.  I like him long term over Kupp, but when you get 7 offers in 2 leagues for the same player, I have to wonder what I missed? 
Los Angeles Rams WR Cooper Kupp (knee) has yet to encounter a setback in his recovery from a torn anterior cruciate ligament, and head coach Sean McVay said the goal is to have Kupp ready for the season opener, according to Ryan Kartje of the Orange County Register.
This blurb isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.  I think it's very likely that Kupp is not ready by the beginning of the season and it will also take most of the season for him to get back to his old self, if that even happens in 2019.

 
What was the best offer you got for him? 
The "best" offer....  C Kupp & John Brown plus a 3 or 4th next year for Woods & James Washington (rejected) or A Jeffery & 1.08 for Woods & 2.10 (rejected). 

Others included Edelman, Hines, and/or Mike Williams (whom I like)....  but the packages were not suitable.  

So the possibility of Kupp missing time is new to my ears....  All I could find of value was a LARams piece  from March 20 

 
So the possibility of Kupp missing time is new to my ears....  All I could find of value was a LARams piece  from March 20 
I've heard nothing but positive stuff about his recovery. I even reached out to a Rams beat writer about a month ago and asked him what are chances that Cooper Kupp looks like Cooper Kupp next year and he said 100%.

 
So the possibility of Kupp missing time is new to my ears....  All I could find of value was a LARams piece  from March 20 
Late-season injury almost always means the player won't be 100% by Week 1.  And you're just praying that there are no compensation or follow-up injuries.  I doubt he'll be back to true form until the latter half of the season, at best.

 
The first round of this rookie draft is awful. 

Jacobs is a fine prospect in a solid situation and 1st round pedigree - but if you “earned” the 1.01, this isn’t the payoff you were hoping for.

Harry is being propped up by his devy hype and highlights, but is a very weak 1.02. Brady doesn’t have long and NE is a tough spot for young WRs.

Sanders is at least solid value at 1.03, but he’d go mid-first most years. His situation isn’t as good as it looks on paper, as the Eagles like to share the load.

1.04 - Montgomery will go here most often, but only his biggest fans will like the value.  Not a great situation, as Cohen will dominate the passing down work. You have to question his upside, as he’s a poor athlete, by NFL standards. 

And now we’re in no man’s land. A.J. Brown is in a bad situation. The draft was a statement against Metcalf. Hollywood only has DeSean upside. Feels early for TE and QB. Deebo has injury questions.

The value gets better late in the round, where lucky owners will land Murray, Fant or Deebo, if their league mates over draft the devy hype guys.

To me, the obvious move is to trade out of the first 10 picks or so of this draft. I value random 2020 1sts over 2019 mid-1sts. Rookie fever will take hold of at least a few guys in every league, so picks should be tradable. 

 
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 The draft was a statement against Metcalf.
While a number of WRs went ahead of him, he did get drafted in Round 2 by a good organization. It's not that strong of a statement.

I do agree with your overall point though. This is one of the weaker drafts we've seen in a while.

 
While a number of WRs went ahead of him, he did get drafted in Round 2 by a good organization. It's not that strong of a statement.
True, but he went 40-50 picks later than we expected. I’m not writing him off or anything, but it seems like the NFL values him a good deal less than we thought they did. 

 
True, but he went 40-50 picks later than we expected. I’m not writing him off or anything, but it seems like the NFL values him a good deal less than we thought they did. 
Guice did last year as well and people didn't hold it against him nearly as much (and I'm not buying that he slid because he plays a lot of Fortnite).

I think Metcalf's ADP will rise slowly the further away from the draft we get, similar (though not to the extent of) to Guice.

 
Guice did last year as well and people didn't hold it against him nearly as much (and I'm not buying that he slid because he plays a lot of Fortnite).

I think Metcalf's ADP will rise slowly the further away from the draft we get, similar (though not to the extent of) to Guice.
Is that an argument against Guice or for Metcalf? 

Guice still appeared to be walking into a heavy workload. We’ve always valued RBs in that position over WRs drafted in the same range. Both Sanders and Montgomery will have higher ADPs than Metcalf, for example.

I just can’t talk myself into feeling good about drafting Metcalf in the middle of the first. There were 8 WRs drafted ahead of him. 

 
Is that an argument against Guice or for Metcalf? 

Guice still appeared to be walking into a heavy workload. We’ve always valued RBs in that position over WRs drafted in the same range. Both Sanders and Montgomery will have higher ADPs than Metcalf, for example.

I just can’t talk myself into feeling good about drafting Metcalf in the middle of the first. There were 8 WRs drafted ahead of him. 
And that workload certainly appeared to be more (comparing RBs to WRs here) valuable than perhaps what we think of as Metcalf's upcoming workload with a run first Seattle offense. But I think it is nearly a lock he will be the starting X receiver and play nearly every snap. He'll run some vanilla stuff but it will be hard to stop. You might be selling his potential workload short. Considering the larger point of how crappy these rookie drafts look, why not take the shot on the guy that has a chance to emerge right away? I think he has a cleaner path to his team's WR1 status than any of the rest. And he might house a few here and there off of Wilson's playmaking ability. I think he has a big ceiling and his floor is better than people realize. IDK. I agree the draft was a bit of an indictment on him, though. I really thought KC was going to take him instead of Hardman. When they traded up I thought it was a done deal.

 
Tentative rookie RB/WR tiers after diving into clips and stats this weekend:

RB Josh Jacobs, Raiders - No major weaknesses and walks into a starting role. Power, hands, elusiveness, and enough speed. Can be Zeke-lite for the Raiders, but not a can't-miss talent. Went from being underrated to (arguably) being overdrafted, with pedestrian long run numbers in college and no experience as THE guy. Still, I like his chances to have a solid rookie year and hold good dynasty value throughout the next 12 months. If you don't like what you see, cash out later down the line.
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RB Miles Sanders, Eagles  - Another guy who really doesn't have any major weak points. His size and speed are both merely just good and not great, but he has a little of everything. Power, agility, speed, and receiving potential. You worry a little bit about Jordan Howard's presence, but in all likelihood this is the most talented back on the roster.
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RB David Montgomery, Bears - He's exactly my type of runner with his compact frame, great balance, and loose hips, but there's one glaring flaw: he's slow and has very marginal burst for the NFL level. Even in college he had very few long runs and it won't get any easier on Sundays. He can be an accumulator and has a chance at being FF ROTY, but there are warts keeping him from being a top tier prospect. I think he's being overdrafted in rookie drafts, but it can potentially work out. A day one starting role is right there for the taking. 

RB Damien Harris, Patriots - With Jacobs flipping the script and getting all the attention out of Bama now, Harris is flying under the radar and, from what I've seen so far, presents good value in rookie drafts. He has a pro-ready combination of power and straight-line burst. His elusiveness and big play skills are just average, but he's one of the highest floor RBs in this draft. One of the scouting reports I read compared him to Cedric Benson and I like that parallel. He doesn't have the electric qualities to ever be an elite pro back, but would be serviceable as a starter right away. I think he gains value in deep mandatory 2RB leagues and is a lot less desirable in flex-y mandatory 1RB leagues since he's more of a high floor/low ceiling type with questionable PPR upside.

RB Darrell Henderson, Rams - A tricky guy to figure out because his stats are incredible. He breaks big plays at an amazing clip and has a pretty good combination of size and speed. Yet when I pull up the video I'm not completely sold on what I see. He's a bit straight-liney with a good, but not great frame. Ultimately, I'm just middle-of-the-road on him. I don't hate his game, but he's not a player that I'd draft higher than generic traits would dictate. Given the seemingly poor short-term opportunity, he often falls to a reasonable range in rookie drafts. Gurley's health may dictate his short-term career outlook.

RB Devin Singletary, Bills - He's a logical successor to LeSean McCoy because he has a similar game and running style. Both are jukers who thrive with elusivess and sudden footwork. He's also reminiscent of Frank Gore in some ways, having a similar body type and combine profile. Singletary is hard to corral and can create yards in 1v1 situations. However, he lacks McCoy's speed and will struggle to rip off big plays at the next level. I thought his film was pretty decent, but he has quite a few physical limitations, so you're aiming to a a small target here. His ADP is reasonable and I don't hate his game, but I think he's shaded more towards guys like Ronnie Hillman than McCoy/Gore in terms of outlook.

RB Alexander Mattison, Vikings - Big and more mobile than his metrics would indicate, but like a lot of the backs in this draft, lacks vertical explosiveness to break long runs. Probably a backup/RBBC caliber talent, but not hopeless and the opportunity may be better than expected since Dalvin Cook isn't the most rugged or durable back.

After that, there's a big dropoff. I don't rate any of the 4th round rookie RBs as being much better than waiver/UDFA fodder. The 5th round has some mildly interesting guys: Jordan Scarlett, Trayveon Williams, Ty Johnson, Rodney Anderson, and Travis Homer. However, the short-term opportunity looks dire and are any of these guys really good enough to justify stashing on your bench for a few years? Perhaps only in deep leagues. My expectations are low. Typically I find 1-2 day three backs that I like a lot and target in all my drafts, but I don't think that player is out there this year.

WR AJ Brown, Titans - When I reviewed this class a year ago, he was the only prospect I would've felt good about in the top 3 of a devy draft. Looking at him a year later, I'm still bullish. Big and mobile. Ideal body type for a possession/RAC-based #1 WR. I see a late first round talent, so it's strange to me that he fell so far. I think the league whiffed a little bit here and that he'll be a solid pro. Reminiscent of people like Demaryius Thomas and JuJu Smith-Schuster in terms of being a big body who can run fluid routes and evade with the ball in his hands.
WR Deebo Samuel, 49ers - Compact and strong. Almost too big. He carries a lot of weight for his height, but it doesn't seem to hamper his mobility. His 40 time is good for his play style and on the field he is a natural athlete and loose runner. He's not an elite prospect, but overall I have a high degree of confidence in his outlook. He is a plus version of Quincy Enunwa at worst and an Anquan Boldin at best. Has a chance to be a PPR machine on this SF team. You don't want him gaining any additional weight, as he's already almost RB-size.
WR N'Keal Harry, Patriots - Tall and rangy, but despite the occasional highlight reel play, his movement and mobility are pretty ordinary. He's more of an old school big body chain mover like Keyshawn Johnson than an athletic dynamo. A rich man's Aaron Dobson, who didn't pan out for the Pats a few years ago. Separation could be an issue. I'm betting on the draft slot and situation as much as the film, because it's merely pretty good and not amazing.
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WR Marquise Brown, Ravens - Explosive, yet absolutely rail thin. Can his 166 pound frame survive in the NFL? You can point towards DeSean Jackson for an optimistic comparison, but others like Paul Richardson haven't been so fortunate with durability. Ultimately, the talent and draft slot are impressive, but the atypical frame adds a considerable layer of risk and is enough to knock him out of my top WR tier even though he was the first WR chosen.
WR DK Metcalf, Seahawks - I've seen Josh Gordon comparisons and I get it because both have rare size and vertical explosiveness. If nothing else, Metcalf is going to be a seam buster that teams need to respect because his ability to get deep and win with speed is very real. The question is whether or not he has anything else to his game. Despite being a SPARQ dream, he isn't necessarily a great athlete in terms of fluidity and suddenness. Can he do more than run a fly route? The ceiling is as high as anyone in this draft, but you can see why teams let him drop despite his otherworldly physical profile.
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WR Andy Isabella, Cardinals - His track background is evident in his clips. He covers the first 10-15 yards as quickly as anyone you'll see. Very, very fast. His route running needs refinement, but the raw parts are there to be strong in this department. He's a bit tightly wound and has some hip stiffness in a phone booth when running after the catch, but once he gets into his stride he can gash teams. Very short with short arms and a small catch radius. More drops than ideal. Ultimately, he has some boom-or-bust qualities. There's an interesting ceiling here because his speed/strength combination is dynamic, but he's very small and will be a nonentity in contested situations. His possession game needs a lot of work. In terms of body type and stature, he resembles Wes Welker, but in terms of his impact on the game he's more like Phillip Dorsett. I see a wide range of potential career outcomes, with everything from stardom to total failure seeming conceivable.
WR Parris Campbell, Colts - Like Metcalf, a guy who doesn't really play up to his measurables and fell in the draft despite insane athletic metrics. No doubt he's fast, but that's not always enough. He doesn't seem to have great overall movement or suddenness and is more straight-line. His body type looks a little different, but there are similarities with another former Buckeye speedster: Ted Ginn. I'm intrigued because the Colts have an elite QB in the prime of his career and if Campbell pans out then he could be gold, but I like him less than his draft slot and measurables would dictate. He's been going quite high in my drafts and I'm simply not willing to take him at his ADP.
WR JJ Arcega- Whiteside, Eagles - Big frame and elite possession skills, with long arms and strong hands to win consistently in contested situations. However, his athleticism and movement are borderline, which could make life difficult against the superior defenders at the next level. He does not have clean lower body movement and fluidity to separate in routes and evade after the catch, and is more reliant on guile. The landing spot is great and it boosts his outlook, but ultimately I'm not high enough on the talent to take him at his ADP, which looks to be quite high among this rookie class.
WR Diontae Johnson, Steelers - Plays way faster than his 4.5 40 time. Among the "small/fast" WRs picked on day two, he probably has the most impressive film. However, he's undersized at ~185 pounds and has suspect hands/toughness. With AB gone, the Steelers needed somebody to keep the heat off JuJu and Johnson can be sort of a poor man's T.Y. Hilton/DeSean Jackson here with the ceiling to potentially become an Emmanuel Sanders type, but he's unlikely to become a true #1 target. Given how high Campbell and JJAW have been going in my drafts, I've been surprised to see Johnson sliding so much further, although Ben's age casts doubt over the long-term quality of this situation.
WR Mecole Hardman, Chiefs - Ostensibly the Tyreek Hill replacement if Hill is done in KC, but despite some similar qualities on paper, he's not really in the same ballpark. Not nearly as athletic or elusive. Could be a useful depth player for KC, but I don't see starter talent and will be avoiding him at his ADP. I think KC panicked, tried to fill a need, and reached for the wrong player. Time will tell.
WR Miles Boykin, Ravens - Another guy who doesn't play up to his measurables. On paper, he's an athletic monster with a big frame and outstanding overall explosiveness. He's a bit of a looks-like-Tarzan-plays-like-Jane though. Seems to coast in games and doesn't play with the suddenness or aggression that you expect from someone with this size/explosiveness. He should look dominant out there, but instead he just looks ordindary. He has an interesting set of athletic traits to work with and if the Ravens can tap into that unlock his full potential then maybe they'll have something special on their hands. He's not a bad athlete and moves fluidly for a big WR, but right now he's a 4.42 guy who plays like a 4.65 guy.
WR Jalen Hurd, 49ers - A poor man's Keenan Allen with a long frame and a game based on quickness and RAC rather than flat out speed. However, despite his RB background, he's not as solid through the lower body and his long frame makes him ungainly in 1v1 situations. He's a competitive player and the type who can produce if called upon. I feel like he could force his way onto the field and become a useful gadget player, but he can't play RB in the NFL and I'm lukewarm on his potential as an outside WR. I consider him draftable at his ADP, but far from a lock.
WR Terry McLaurin, Redskins - A straight-line speedster type whose game reminds of Marquise Goodwin. Suspect route running and agility. I lean towards him being a one-trick-pony in the NFL whose game is too limited to ever become a reliable FF performer, but the draft slot and workout numbers are worth a look.

I haven't really spent as much time on the TEs yet, but so far I like Fant > Hockenson. I'm normally very bullish on TEs and have been a big fan of Eifert, Ebron, and Hurst in recent years. This year I have to admit that I don't quite see what's so special about Hockenson to justify such a high pick. He doesn't appear to be a Winslow or even Ebron level talent as a receiver, but when a TE goes that high it sets off the alarm, so I'll have to take a longer look. Of the day 2-3 guys, Sample looks like a blocker first and a receiver second. Knox has good athletic traits that translate to the field. Sternberger, Warring, and Smith showed flashes.

I haven't spent a minute on the QBs and have nothing to add there right now.

Overall, I don't like this class. My top 5 would be Jacobs, AJ Brown, Sanders, Samuel, and Harry in some order. I'm relatively confident in that group, but after that, my confidence erodes quickly. Damien Harris is a high floor prospect, but the majority of my third tier RBs/WRs look like dice throws to me. Usually I will have some solid targets in the 10-20 range, but this year it's feeling more like pin the tail on the donkey.

 
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Tentative rookie RB/WR tiers after diving into clips and stats this weekend:

RB Josh Jacobs, Raiders - No major weaknesses and walks into a starting role. Power, hands, elusiveness, and enough speed. Can be Zeke-lite for the Raiders, but not a can't-miss talent. Went from being underrated to (arguably) being overdrafted, with pedestrian long run numbers in college and no experience as THE guy. Still, I like his chances to have a solid rookie year and hold good dynasty value throughout the next 12 months. If you don't like what you see, cash out later down the line.
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RB Miles Sanders, Eagles  - Another guy who really doesn't have any major weak points. His size and speed are both merely just good and not great, but he has a little of everything. Power, agility, speed, and receiving potential. You worry a little bit about Jordan Howard's presence, but in all likelihood this is the most talented back on the roster.
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RB David Montgomery, Bears - He's exactly my type of runner with his compact frame, great balance, and loose hips, but there's one glaring flaw: he's slow and has very marginal burst for the NFL level. Even in college he had very few long runs and it won't get any easier on Sundays. He can be an accumulator and has a chance at being FF ROTY, but there are warts keeping him from being a top tier prospect. I think he's being overdrafted in rookie drafts, but it can potentially work out. A day one starting role is right there for the taking. 

RB Damien Harris, Patriots - With Jacobs flipping the script and getting all the attention out of Bama now, Harris is flying under the radar and, from what I've seen so far, presents good value in rookie drafts. He has a pro-ready combination of power and straight-line burst. His elusiveness and big play skills are just average, but he's one of the highest floor RBs in this draft. One of the scouting reports I read compared him to Cedric Benson and I like that parallel. He doesn't have the electric qualities to ever be an elite pro back, but would be serviceable as a starter right away. I think he gains value in deep mandatory 2RB leagues and is a lot less desirable in flex-y mandatory 1RB leagues since he's more of a high floor/low ceiling type with questionable PPR upside.

RB Darrell Henderson, Rams - A tricky guy to figure out because his stats are incredible. He breaks big plays at an amazing clip and has a pretty good combination of size and speed. Yet when I pull up the video I'm not completely sold on what I see. He's a bit straight-liney with a good, but not great frame. Ultimately, I'm just middle-of-the-road on him. I don't hate his game, but he's not a player that I'd draft higher than generic traits would dictate. Given the seemingly poor short-term opportunity, he often falls to a reasonable range in rookie drafts. Gurley's health may dictate his short-term career outlook.

RB Devin Singletary, Bills - He's a logical successor to LeSean McCoy because he has a similar game and running style. Both are jukers who thrive with elusivess and sudden footwork. He's also reminiscent of Frank Gore in some ways, having a similar body type and combine profile. Singletary is hard to corral and can create yards in 1v1 situations. However, he lacks McCoy's speed and will struggle to rip off big plays at the next level. I thought his film was pretty decent, but he has quite a few physical limitations, so you're aiming to a a small target here. His ADP is reasonable and I don't hate his game, but I think he's shaded more towards guys like Ronnie Hillman than McCoy/Gore in terms of outlook.

RB Alexander Mattison, Vikings - Big and more mobile than his metrics would indicate, but like a lot of the backs in this draft, lacks vertical explosiveness to break long runs. Probably a backup/RBBC caliber talent, but not hopeless and the opportunity may be better than expected since Dalvin Cook isn't the most rugged or durable back.

After that, there's a big dropoff. I don't rate any of the 4th round rookie RBs as being much better than waiver/UDFA fodder. The 5th round has some mildly interesting guys: Jordan Scarlett, Trayveon Williams, Ty Johnson, Rodney Anderson, and Travis Homer. However, the short-term opportunity looks dire and are any of these guys really good enough to justify stashing on your bench for a few years? Perhaps only in deep leagues. My expectations are low. Typically I find 1-2 day three backs that I like a lot and target in all my drafts, but I don't think that player is out there this year.
Thanks EBF.  No comments on Bryce Love?  Or do you lump him in with the 4th rounders because of the injury and the situation behind Guice?

 
Yea, I didn't like him very much in college and with the injury and draft slot, I'm that much less excited.

 
I just can’t talk myself into feeling good about drafting Metcalf in the middle of the first. There were 8 WRs drafted ahead of him. 
We do not know if that would have been the case if Seattle had a pick earlier in the round. While I do think the NFL draft is a pretty efficient model for predictive purposes we also have to remember that not every team has the same draft board. A few teams that picked WRs before Metcalf was taken could have conceivably made a big mistake.

 
We do not know if that would have been the case if Seattle had a pick earlier in the round. While I do think the NFL draft is a pretty efficient model for predictive purposes we also have to remember that not every team has the same draft board. A few teams that picked WRs before Metcalf was taken could have conceivably made a big mistake.
This reads like an argument against using draft position as a model, more so than anything unique to a Metcalf. Am I wrong there?

Metcalf going between 14 and 32, as was most often projected, is much more valuable to me than Metcalf at 64. That’s all I’m trying to say. A lot of teams were looking for WRs in that range - a lot of them passed on Metcalf for other options - and Seattle, who was extremely active all weekend, was content to let Metcalf fall to them.

I understand the appeal and can’t fault anyone for selecting him as an upside play in that range. (Again, I don’t like any of the options in that range, in terms of value.) I just wouldn’t feel good about doing it, personally.

 
Price check

Carson, Marlon Mack, Ro Jo, Penny ranked 

also 

AB, Hilton, ARob, AJG, Julio, Sterling Sheppard. 

With AJG, Julio, and Brown getting older. What young WRs is anyone trying to flip for.  

 
We do not know if that would have been the case if Seattle had a pick earlier in the round. While I do think the NFL draft is a pretty efficient model for predictive purposes we also have to remember that not every team has the same draft board. A few teams that picked WRs before Metcalf was taken could have conceivably made a big mistake.
Sounds like the logic I used to justify taking Treadwell in rookie drafts a few years ago.  And we all know how that turned out.

 
Mack, Penny, Carson, Rojo

Julio, Brown, Hilton, Green, Arob, Shep 

I’m targeting Williams, Boyd, Kirk, Washington, in general.

If you’re trying to flip those studs, I’m not sure you’ll get good value. You might be able to get Diggs for Julio. 

 
This reads like an argument against using draft position as a model, more so than anything unique to a Metcalf. Am I wrong there?
No not at all - the fact that he was a second rounder is relevant to me. The fact that the Chiefs took Hardman or the Niners took Samuel over him is not necessarily as relevant (it just means those two teams ranked those two guys higher - Seattle on the other hand could have had Metcalf higher than both).

If 2-4 WRs went in the same range/in  the same round, I would still draft the one that I thought was the most talented and that was in the best situation. On the other hand if I loved Butler and he fell to round 4, that would lead me to reevaluate.

 
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Price check

Carson, Marlon Mack, Ro Jo, Penny ranked 

also 

AB, Hilton, ARob, AJG, Julio, Sterling Sheppard. 

With AJG, Julio, and Brown getting older. What young WRs is anyone trying to flip for.  
I have same RB order as Concept Coop but the WR's I'd sort as: AB, Julio, AJG, Hilton, Robinson and Shepard.

Had a league of mine where AB/Julio owner was hard shopping both for most of the off-season since he is rebuilding. Was surprised he got the teams he got to pay up for them because neither are contenders but if I recall a few weeks ago he got Ridley and solid 2020#1 for Julio and just yesterday got James Washington and another solid 2020#1 for AB.

As a side note I was glad to see both of those trades because my team is a contender but also a team that is about to lose my only stud WR, Tyreek. I got multiple 2020#1's and a ton of youth but the ex-AB/Julio owner wanted mutliple 2020#1's from me or my pick 1.1 this year and a 2020#1. Now when the season starts and  those teams who paid youth for those aging WR's realize they still are not competitive if I'm so inclined I'm pretty sure I'll be able to get them for less then they paid.

 
We do not know if that would have been the case if Seattle had a pick earlier in the round. While I do think the NFL draft is a pretty efficient model for predictive purposes we also have to remember that not every team has the same draft board. A few teams that picked WRs before Metcalf was taken could have conceivably made a big mistake.
To be fair in this case we kind of do, as Seattle had multiple picks earlier in the round.  They traded back with one of them and took a safety at pick 47 with the other.

 
To be fair in this case we kind of do, as Seattle had multiple picks earlier in the round.  They traded back with one of them and took a safety at pick 47 with the other.
fair point - I guess I meant more along the lines of how they ranked the WRs though.

 
No not at all - the fact that he was a second rounder is relevant to me. The fact that the Chiefs took Hardman or the Niners took Samuel over him is not necessarily as relevant (it just means those two teams ranked those two guys higher - Seattle on the other hand could have had Metcalf higher than both).

If 2-4 WRs went in the same range/in  the same round, I would still draft the one that I thought was the most talented and that was in the best situation. On the other hand if I loved Butler and he fell to round 4, that would lead me to reevaluate.
60+ picks in, we start to get some approximation of a consensus. That Metcalf was drafted at 64 says just as much about that consensus as it does about how Seattle viewed him. 

Within tight enough windows, the data mean much less. That Isabella, for example, was drafted two spots earlier only tells us how the Cardinals valued Metcalf, and only relative to how they valued Isabella. If that is the point you're making, I agree. 

My point is broader: the leauge doesn't value Metcalf as much as we thought they did. He's a lesser dynasty asset than he was a week ago as a result. 

 
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Yep.  Remember in 2016 when Corey Coleman, Josh Doctson and Treadwell were all first rounders?  A guy named Michael Thomas went in the second...
This is a general argument against using draft position as a model. Why is Metcalf the Thomas in this scenario? 

It's a messy, inexact science. But draft spot is still one of the best and one of the only worthwhile predictors we have. 

 
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it's still one of the best and only worthwhile predictors we have. 
This draft is why I'll never join a devy league or agree to a rookie draft pre-NFL draft. NFL GMs miss a lot, but they are way ahead of the dynasty fantasy football community.

I guess I'll have to take that back if Metcalf, Butler, and Harmon turn out to be studs... but damn those April rookie drafts look butt ugly right now.

 
This draft is why I'll never join a devy league or agree to a rookie draft pre-NFL draft. NFL GMs miss a lot, but they are way ahead of the dynasty fantasy football community.

I guess I'll have to take that back if Metcalf, Butler, and Harmon turn out to be studs... but damn those April rookie drafts look butt ugly right now.
Metcalf went at the end of rd 2 to a good spot. Sure lots of other wrs were drafted before him but he’s still a 2nd rd pick. Butler and harmon, well, we’ll see. They should have the opportunity to at least prove people wrong. I think the nfl is trending toward Uber fast 4.3 players over the prototype 6-2/220/4.4 or freak 6-5/260/4.4 guys. Everyone wants the next Antonio brown/Tyreek Hill. 

 
Last year where a WR was drafted was a solid guide for the order to draft them but it's awfully early on that group right now and no one really broke out yet. Looking at previous 5 seasons.

2017: I'd say the top 4 valued WR's in that draft are JuJu, Kupp, Godwin and Golladay.  They were WR's 6, 7, 11 and 12.

2016: Michael Thomas the 6th WR chosen is clearly the top guy and only WR who was comp was Hill who was WR18. Second and third most valued WR's from that draft would be Boyd and Shepard, the 5th and 7th WR's drafted.

2015: Cooper was and is the top WR from that draft but then nothing went to form after that. Diggs as WR20 is clearly the second best WR from that class and then you run into guys like Lockett and Crowder who were WR's 10 and 15.

2014- Values have changed for these guys and if you drafted Adams you might not have hung on long enough for the payoff but I think right now today the 3 most valuable WR's from that class are Odell, Davante and Evans who were WR's 3, 9 and 2 from that draft. WR 4 Cooks might come in 4th most valuable so this was a fairly good guide to value but a lot of turds went over Adams.

2013- Hopkins, Allen and Woods only WR's of much value and they were drafted as WR2, WR8 and WR5.

So with the 2018 draft being possibly to early to judge and looking at 5 previous seasons:

Only once was the top  WR drafted still considered the most valuable, and that's Cooper and I'm sure some people have Diggs from that class higher so he's not even a consenus.

Hopkins, Odell, Evans and Cooper are only WR's from a possible 15 that were both a top 3 drafted WR in their class that are still a top 3 valued WR from their class.

Every single season from 2013-2017 at least one top 3 WR from that class was drafted as WR6 or later and every year except 201 at least two of the currently top 3 valued WR's from that class were drafted as WR5 or later.

If Cooper is considered the top WR from his class over Diggs that would put the top WR from each class as WR6, WR6, WR1, WR3 and WR2 with the average were what is now considered the top WR from his draft was selected would be WR 3.6. If Diggs is considered the top WR from that draft the average WR ADP the top WR is chosen would drop to WR 7.4.

If I took what I consider the top 3 currently valued WR's from each class, 15 total, I would count 11 of the 15 were chosen as WR5 or later.

If you looked at each season and took average of what is now considered the top 3 WRs from that class and averaged out their ADP among WR's, and for now I'll just use Golladay over Godwin you'd have this:

2017- WR8

2016- WR6 ( I removed Hill from this equation because of his situation or number would have been higher)

2015- WR10.3

2014-  WR4.6

2013- WR5

People can interpret this all they want, or quite likely just think it's to worthless think about at all. To me this shows likely success rate of a WR chosen as WR10 or later is not very promising but not much of a reason to be turned off from a WR who went in the WR5-8 range.

 
The 2nd round is still quite high overall. Allen Robinson and JuJu Smith-Schuster are two WRs I liked coming out of college who went in that range and have done pretty well. Michael Thomas has been great. None of those guys tested as well as Metcalf though. Metcalf's numbers were freakish. When a player with an elite athletic profile from a major college program falls to the late 2nd, it typically means teams are uneasy about his film and/or something off the field.

It's a red flag, but not a deal breaker. I'm still high on AJ Brown even though I think he went 20 picks later than where he should've. You'd be more confident if he were a first round pick, but ultimately as long as a player doesn't fall TOO far from where I have them in my own mind (like a projected 2nd rounder dropping to the 5th-6th) then I won't adjust too radically.

That's a long-winded way of saying that I think Metcalf's draft fall reflects skepticism from the scouting community, but wasn't so severe as to completely crush his outlook.

I will say that in my rookie drafts he's still been going very high, almost as if he'd been picked where projected. I'm slightly more wary, and have him as a top 10 guy rather than a top 5 pick.

 
Price check

Carson, Marlon Mack, Ro Jo, Penny ranked 

also 

AB, Hilton, ARob, AJG, Julio, Sterling Sheppard. 

With AJG, Julio, and Brown getting older. What young WRs is anyone trying to flip for.  
RB's I'd go; Penny, Mack, Carson, Rojo for me, add in the caveat that I would not draft Carson at all unless I already owned Penny though.

WR's; Julio, AB, Hilton, AJG, Arob, Shepard, but another caveat that I'd have Julio starting at WR15 rather than top10.  I think it's time to move on from those types of guys in startups.  

 
People can interpret this all they want, or quite likely just think it's to worthless think about at all. To me this shows likely success rate of a WR chosen as WR10 or later is not very promising but not much of a reason to be turned off from a WR who went in the WR5-8 range.
ZWK's generic rookie model predicts a 38% drop in VBD from the end of the first (128) to the end of the 2nd (79). That's actually closer than I thought it would be. 

VBD Pos  Player
157    WR    Marquise Brown
128    WR    N'Keal Harry
114    WR    Deebo Samuel
87    WR    A. J. Brown
83    WR    Mecole Hardman
83    WR    JJ Arcega-Whiteside
82    WR    Parris Campbell
80    WR    Andy Isabella
79    WR    D.K. Metcalf

 
People can interpret this all they want, or quite likely just think it's to worthless think about at all. To me this shows likely success rate of a WR chosen as WR10 or later is not very promising but not much of a reason to be turned off from a WR who went in the WR5-8 range. 
The odds favor the top guy chosen, but of course when there are another 20-30 WRs picked every year, it's hard to beat the whole field.

Draft position is the league saying, "We think this guy is about this good."

It's good as a rough approximation of a player's worth. Sometimes they get it wrong, but the odds will always favor the higher pick independent of other variables.

 
Concept Coop said:
Mack, Penny, Carson, Rojo

Julio, Brown, Hilton, Green, Arob, Shep 

I’m targeting Williams, Boyd, Kirk, Washington, in general.

If you’re trying to flip those studs, I’m not sure you’ll get good value. You might be able to get Diggs for Julio. 
It’s tough the window of age is hit.  I have youth behind them but literally not much value right now moving.  Golladay is another target but costly.  

 
EBF said:
The odds favor the top guy chosen, but of course when there are another 20-30 WRs picked every year, it's hard to beat the whole field.

Draft position is the league saying, "We think this guy is about this good."

It's good as a rough approximation of a player's worth. Sometimes they get it wrong, but the odds will always favor the higher pick independent of other variables.
I don’t think I agree. Guys drafted to NO and GB and Pitt who get to play in high flying offenses with HOF QB’s will have increased chances of success. If you changed “always” to “usually,” I may agree.

 
I don’t think I agree. Guys drafted to NO and GB and Pitt who get to play in high flying offenses with HOF QB’s will have increased chances of success. If you changed “always” to “usually,” I may agree.
Objectively, draft position correlates with success. There's no ambiguity in that.

That doesn't mean it "always" holds true in every instance. Look at the legendary 2008 RB class. Darren McFadden, Jonathan Stewart, Felix Jones, and Rashard Mendenhall were the first four RBs drafted....ahead of Chris Johnson, Ray Rice, Matt Forte, and Jamaal Charles. With the benefit of hindsight, we know who had the better careers.

You can't simply say "this guy was picked ahead of this guy and is therefore going to be better". However, more often than not, the higher pick will outperform the lower pick. There's enough data on this to prove it beyond doubt. That's why people stress draft position as an important variable. While we can all think of exceptions like Antonio Brown, Tom Brady, Tyreek Hill, and Antonio Gates, the league is usually pretty good at assessing a player's merit. Even underdrafted players like MJD, Forte, Ray Rice, Charles, Gore, B Marshall, Gronk, and Graham were still relatively high draft picks.

The challenge when you are trying to build a set of rankings is how you weigh subjective analysis and situation against those historical odds. When I am building my rankings each year, I sort guys into tiers based on draft slot (1st rounders/2nd-3rd rounders/4th+ rounders) and then I move them up or down (or not at all) based on how much I like them subjectively. If I really dislike a guy, I'll bump him down. If I really like him, I'll bump him up. If I'm in the middle, I'll leave him where his generic traits would dictate. My general rule is that, no matter how much faith I have in an evaluation, I try not to move a player up or down more than one tier from where his generic draft slot and traits dictate he should be. But I do make those picks when I feel it's justified. I took JuJu over Ross in numerous leagues two years ago. I would take AJ Brown or Samuel over Marquise Brown this year. I'm willing to break the lines when I think it's justified, but you have to be selective because if you do that with every guy then you're going to lose in the long run.

As far as situation goes, I think it's far more important for marginal talents than it is for elite talents or useless garbage. You could put Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Adrian Peterson, or Saquon Barkley on any team and it wouldn't matter. They are so good that they can transcend any situation. A more borderline talent like Emmanuel Sanders or Mark Ingram might need an ideal situation to unlock his full potential. On the other hand, a player still needs a certain base level of talent in order to even be relevant. I mentioned Aaron Dobson already in this thread. Selected in the 2nd round by the Pats to a team with a HoF QB in his prime. Did it matter? No, because Dobson couldn't play. Robert Meachem was a first round pick to the Saints in Brees's prime and did virtually nothing. Anthony Gonzalez. Phillip Dorsett. Sammie Coates. Limas Sweed. The examples are endless. If a guy can't play then all the opportunity in the world doesn't matter. Same deal at RB with people like Hillman, Sankey, Yeldon, Abdullah, and Montee Ball. Great opportunity and zero payoff.

That's why I think, apart from looking at the draft slot, your first priority should be trying to develop some understanding of the player's abilities. If you don't like what you see then you might want to avoid a player even if his short-term opportunity looks appealing. On the other hand, if the guy has insane talent then you might want to overdraft him even if his short-term opportunity doesn't look ideal. I filter out a lot of guys right away because I don't like what I see in their metrics and/or clips, and in those cases I don't really care if they're walking into a starting job or playing with a HoF QB. If I'm right about their talent level, it won't matter because they will squander their opportunity. Where opportunity becomes more important, as I said earlier, is with the borderline guys. Let's take a guy like Damien Harris. He's not an elite prospect, but he's probably a viable NFL starter if called upon. Hypothetically, if the Raiders had taken him in the same draft slot instead of NE, he'd likely be a 1st round rookie pick with the combination of talent and opportunity. However, in a murkier Patriots backfield where he's less likely to monopolize touches, you probably bump him down a bit because even though he's a viable pro back, he's not so good that he's obviously going to command a starting role in the future.

But if you think AJ Brown >> Parris Campbell, JJAW, and Mecole Hardman from a talent standpoint then the situations are almost irrelevant. You pick the guy who can play and you let nature run its course. If you are right, you will end up with the better asset.

 
Zyphros said:
RB's I'd go; Penny, Mack, Carson, Rojo for me, add in the caveat that I would not draft Carson at all unless I already owned Penny though.

WR's; Julio, AB, Hilton, AJG, Arob, Shepard, but another caveat that I'd have Julio starting at WR15 rather than top10.  I think it's time to move on from those types of guys in startups.  
What about dynasty - AJG, B Cooks, Kupp, ARob.  

 
What about dynasty - AJG, B Cooks, Kupp, ARob.  
My last one was in dynasty as well.  But lets continue ha.

Cooks, Green, Kupp, Arob, that's my order at least.  I wouldn't mind seeing Kupp > AJG in some cases, but I don't see Kupp as a comfortable #1 on a dynasty squad like Cooks or Green.  

 

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