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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (9 Viewers)

Ditka Butkus said:
If the Brits are sure Russia was involved and they are offended, then they should retaliate in whatever fashion they choose...When did you guys turn into such warmongers?
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what the hell are you talking about?  Is this some sort of weird word-salad gibberish? 

 
JerseyToughGuys said:
FWIW, the word "proof" literally means "evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement."

So, there is certainly proof. Incontrovertible proof? Perhaps not yet. But, is that the measure you are really advocating here?
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I’d go a little further - we may not know of any incontrovertible proof, but if Britain is openly blaming Russia, they likely have incontrovertible proof

 
Banger said:
we've killed people so who cares if Russia kills people
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Matthias said:
"I'm a Patriot Who Loves my COUNTRY, but I am AGOG that you're refusing to admit that our Country Does BAD THINGS?"

That about cover it?
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This new right wing schtick is so good. Guess those 9/11 hijackers had a point after all. Scratch terrorism off the list of things to worry about. This Trump guy is a miracle worker.

 
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ericttspikes said:
This new right wing schtick so good. Guess those 9/11 hijackers had a point after all. Scratch terrorism off the list of things to worry about. This Tump guy is a miracle worker.
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how many muslim's have the US killed via drones?  they were perfectly justified in retaliating against the US

 
Sweet J said:
TobiasFunke said:
Yup, that's the problem.  And even if you're wrong, the Dems would be justified to suspect it given the GOP's behavior in recent years.  Another example of the damage being done by the Trump era and how hard it will be to unravel.
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well, if they could put something like this into place that could only be un-done by a super-majority, I'd be for it. 
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I'd be for it either way. It's probably the right way to go, and there should be political pressure against undoing it if things ever start to matter again.

(I don't think a super-majority requirement would be constitutional.)

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
Tweet by Mike Pompeo (since deleted) three days before Trump's "Russia, if you're listening..." plea:

"Need further proof that the fix was in from Pres. Obama on down? BUSTED: 19,252 Emails from DNC Leaked by Wikileaks."
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Yeah, not good. He also brought in Bill Binney for a... 'talk' with CIA analysts.

Hes also been a primary briefer for the president on his PDB, which is pretty unusual. I don't get the impression the president is being disabused if some of his dumber notions very effectively.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Yeah, not good. He also brought in Bill Bonney for a... 'talk' with CIA analysts.

Hes also been a primary briefer for the president on his PDB, which is pretty unusual. I don't get the impression the president is being disabused if some of his dumber notions very effectively.
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Attempting to disabuse the president of some of his dumber notions would be an extremely large undertaking and would likely result in dismissal before even a small dent was made.

 
Koya said:
Not so quick my friend.

Xi still has to answer to America's leader.  So it's really just Putin that does whatever he wants. 
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Xi doesn’t answer to Trump, he has complete control of China for life, and China is far more powerful than Russia.   Vlad’s control of the White House ends when Trump leaves office, and Trump doesn’t control much of the US government.   Ya, putting my $ on Xi.

 
Matthias said:
I've become against asymmetric uses of power. It is arguably a form of voter disenfranchisement.
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Elections have consequences, so the majority will always get to legislate largely the way it wants when it controls all three houses (House, Senate, White). But I agree with the sentiment John McCain has been consistently expressing for a decade now (perhaps much longer): that the party in power should seek input from the minority party and work towards a compromise wherever possible so that the general public feels like, whatever side they're on, they haven't been effectively disenfranchised.

It takes both sides to make that work. Even if the majority party solicits input from the minority party, the minority party has to cooperate by actually giving input in good faith instead of just mindlessly obstructing everything.

But I do think that one of the drawbacks to the way Obamacare was enacted was that roughly half the country, justly or not, came away feeling like a huge piece of major legislation was forced on them with no good-faith attempt at bipartisan cooperation. That may be more of a PR problem than a reality-based problem given the general attitude of Republican legislators at the time (especially in the House), but it's a problem nonetheless.

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
Elections have consequences, so the majority will always get to legislate largely the way it wants when it controls all three houses (House, Senate, White). But I agree with the sentiment John McCain has been consistently expressing for a decade now (perhaps much longer): that the party in power should seek input from the minority party and work towards a compromise wherever possible so that the general public feels like, whatever side they're on, they haven't been effectively disenfranchised.

It takes both sides to make that work. Even if the majority party solicits input from the minority party, the minority party has to cooperate by actually giving input in good faith instead of just mindlessly obstructing everything.

But I do think that one of the drawbacks to the way Obamacare was enacted was that roughly half the country, justly or not, came away feeling like a huge piece of major legislation was forced on them with no good-faith attempt at bipartisan cooperation. That may be more of a PR problem than a reality-based problem given the general attitude of Republican legislators at the time (especially in the House), but it's a problem nonetheless.
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Agreed.  

Tug-of-war democracy is what seems to result when working together on legislation and compromising fails.

 
Matthias said:
That's not actually what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I'm against one party trying to do things more equitably while they control the reigns than the other does. If one party wants to push the boundaries of what 1 party can do, then the other should as well. If one party wants to deem that as soon as a Presidential election year begins the President is a lame duck who can't get judge confirmed, then the other side should as well. To be in a situation where one party exerts complete discretion while in the majority, and much more relative significant influence while in the minority is to weaken the votes and will of the voters who put into power the other party.
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Doesn't this just result in a country where policies, legislation, executive orders, etc. just get jerked back and forth, election cycle after election cycle?

Why would we want to advocate for that type of system of government rather than one where all sides come to the table and compromise?  Retribution?

 
Matthias said:
I'm not saying that the Democrats should decide to do a 50/50 power share on the House Intelligence Committee while in power. I'm saying they should shut the Republicans out. Unless and until there becomes some sort of binding way to govern across different House tenures.
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That would take a viable third party that isn't primarily aligned with either of the existing parties.

 
Skoo said:
Compromise. The term is almost laughable at this point in regards to Congress.

When is the last time Congress agreed on ANYTHING?

Oh, right.

Russian Sanctions.
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if that same vote was taken today the outcome would not be the same.

 
Matthias said:
Come up in the past. Technically, no. He can appoint him as an acting head as he has Senate approval for a different position. And then acting heads can linger.
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For 150 days.  Which, granted, will feel like ten years with this administration, but still.

 
Matthias said:
To empower their voters.

To put it in extremely over-simplistic terms. If you have 1 party that 50% of the time wields 90% of the power, and then 50% of the time wields 40% of the power, on average they're influencing 65% of the government versus 35% of the side that plays, "fair." So watering down the influence of the population who put them into power. That's bull####.
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It is unfair, but it's similarly problematic to think about the perpetual back and forth that this becoming the new normal will create.

If we're hoping for an outcome, why shouldn't it be that we experience a return to normal behavior from our elected officials?  A return to decency, and away from extremism?  Push for laws or outcomes that reduce extremism in our politics, and possibly on the TV or radio.

 
cosjobs said:
Did Carter Page Call Devin Nunes From Moscow?

Evidence suggests Carter Page – the fresh target of a FISA warrant – called Devin Nunes from Moscow, and Mueller has the intercepts.

gb crazy Louise
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That would be pretty significant.  This is a statement Page made in his infamous October 2017 MSNBC interview:

“When the truth comes out, when Speaker Paul Ryan says the FISA warrant, the details about the dodgy dossier, and what happened and all the documents around that is going to be released, that’s what I’m really excited about and I think the truth will set a lot of people free.”
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Here is a link to a story from February that discusses it: Good Question. How Did Carter Page Know Last October That Paul Ryan Would ReleaseTheMemo??

 
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ren hoek said:
I looked online to see if May's claims have been proven yet.  I did find this article, which cites their claim it was "highly likely," but something being 'highly likely' is not the same thing as 'proof'.
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“Highly likely” is the U.K. intelligence community’s highest level of confidence. Attributions are never certain, so the U.K. intelligence community never says “X happened.” Instead it says “we assess it is highly likely that X happened.” The U.K. intelligence community doesn’t get more certain than that.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/uk-prime-ministers-speech-russian-poisoning-sergei-skripal-decoding-signals

 
-fish- said:
150 days?  That's like 3 rounds of resignations/firings and replacements.
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Matthias said:
Sure. I was mostly addressing the point that he could be appointed to the position. And is there any prohibition against cycling someone else in there for 5 months?
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Again, this is only if the cabinet member quits or dies.

But looks like it's now 210 days.  Plus another option if a nominee gets rejected.  If a second one does, it stays vacant.

 
ren hoek said:
I looked online to see if May's claims have been proven yet.  I did find this article, which cites their claim it was "highly likely," but something being 'highly likely' is not the same thing as 'proof'.  Similar to the Russian hacking, people are jumping to conclusions without proof.  It's highly likely that I ate a clif bar for breakfast, but that doesn't prove I actually ate a clif bar for breakfast.   

For its part, it appears the Russian govt is requesting a sample of the nerve agent which appears to sit with chemical weapons conventions.  

http://amp.kentucky.com/living/health-and-medicine/article204833869.html

To the greater implication, that I love Russia and really care about Assad- rather than being genuinely dismayed at how easily smart people have lapsed into paranoid McCarthyism, escalating WWIII tension with a nuclear power, and Iraq 3.0 in Syria- I would just say for the seemingly millionth time, that you should separate the honest concern with these situations playing out from a personal affinity for heads of state.  These people banging the drums for this narrative, they want a war so bad.  It is SO OBVIOUS where they want this to go that I can't believe people are falling for it again.  

This board is the chuck e cheese ballpit of russia conspiracy gaters, so it really shouldn't come as a surprise that people with a dissenting opinion don't post here anymore.  
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It's so weird.  A massive international athletics doping program, a massive international hacking scheme, a massive international assassination plot - all attributed to Russia with no evidence whatsoever and Russia denies them all.

Well, the last two.  After three years they've pretty much admitted the doping one.  And I guess just the last one; they're now saying it was probably Russian citizens - but not the government - who did the hacking.  But the killing one!  That was totally not them.

 
Matthias said:
For the judicial nominees, say the Democrats take the Senate.

It gets to January 2020. A seat becomes available on SCOTUS. The Dems have the option of being decent and traditional and giving hearings to whoever Trump chooses. Or they choose to be equally spiteful and malignant as McConnell was and freeze out anyone Trump wants to nominate. If they go the first option, they've given Trump essentially 5 years for 1 Presidential term to make SCOTUS choices. Which un-democratically (small d) disempowers the voters who put into office a different President.

Sure, you want cooperation and bi-partisanship. But one party bending over and playing fair when the other isn't is actually worse.
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Dems should agree to put Trump’s nominee on the Court in exchange for a constitutional amendment that Supreme Court terms are 18 years instead of lifetime.  Of course this would never happen.

 
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