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This sort of movement is exactly how i got into donating time to helping people at local resource centers. The first one started as this and in about three years had those services plus financial education, interviewing classes, food e.t.c
this certainly seems like the best path to common ground, yet we struggle to get there.
In fairness, it is a hot button issue, and people aren't exactly rational about those.
I've decided it's unhealthy to talk about "abortion" in a vacuum. It really IS only part of the scenario. I have a TON of people who are screaming "abortion is murder" and "pull yourself up by your bootstraps kid that no one wanted in the first place" at the same time. As a result, when people start talking about it, I simply ask them if they want to talk about the entire issue or just part and if it's just part, I don't engage.
Speaking strictly from my experience, far too many of the crowd chanting "abortion is murder," only care about ending abortion, but they're eerily silent on ways to help these mothers(and fathers, they're part of this too) avoid this situation. It's not enough to just save a life, we have to help the new family actually live.
I agree with this. But I also want to extend grace on this.
Awesome. I don't see how anybody can really disagree with this approach/viewpoint.Kal El said:
I'm talking about the restrictions against same-sex couples. I know one such couple(who have since split up, but that's not the point), who have adopted children, and they're in a great home. Why would someone not allow children, who need a family, go to a couple who desperately wants to raise children, but can't have children?
Joe Bryant said:
It’s not really important to most politicians to do something like this as they are invested in getting those votes. Abortion as a wedge issue is vitally important to both parties.Tolstoy said:
Funny story, I won my school's "When I grow up" speech contest with a speech my mom helped write, where I'd like to be President. Nowadays, I'd rather tangle with electricity. Lex Luthor once said, "Do you know how much power I'd have to give up to be president?" Honestly, I like my career as an electrician.
I've found on a lot of issues, a lot more people are closer to the middle ground than they think, and if we all approached things with the idea to try and make it work for as many people as possible.
Our best bet is to find someone who legitimately wants to help as many as they can, regardless of party, and try to drum up support. At any rate, we can try to improve things on the ground.
Not equally important to both sides, imo. All the single-issue voters I know whose issue is abortion...all on the same side, and that side needs them desperately.
Hi @AAABatteries Two quick thoughts:
Thanks Joe. I probably should have added some of my own thoughts because what this person says doesn't align completely with how I think.
Couple more thoughts.
I've noticed here, and this is strictly what I've seen, a lot of people go to church on Sunday, and barely give God a thought for the rest of the week. That's not what we're called to do, and we're certainly not supposed to throw support behind a candidate who has basically spit in the face of our beliefs just because he's now in a certain political party. We're called to help the poor, be good stewards of the planet, and love our neighbors, whether we think they deserve it or not. I'm going to be honest, I see this list, and I don't think, "Oh, that sounds like a Republican," at least I currently don't see it.
Hey AAA,
I really don't know to be honest. It's someone my wife knows and she just said it was a FB post. I do read it kind of like you, that her issue/sorrow is directed towards the leaders and not everyone.
I'll have to listen to it later, but I've said for a while that a lot of believers are being led astray by Trump, or at least by the belief that a single political party can be the only party that God could use or that believers should support.
You're gonna be disappointed...many of the resident Christians on this board have said almost everything he says in the video
I'm a Christian and liked it. For me, though, it's preaching to the choir. To Christians who support Trump, I think it falls on deaf ears. I could send it to my Christian friends who are likely voting for Trump and they'll either fire back with arguments against it or maybe weakly agree with it but still vote for him.
Since I first viewed it, I've been trying to think about cogent, consistent arguments that would exist on the "against" side of what he said and I can't come up with a single one. That's rare.
Thanks for this GB
Interested in your synopsis of Metaxas’ argument when you’re done. I’ve watched it twice (watched it with my wife last night) and I found Metaxas more palatable on second viewing but I’m still baffled if that’s the best argument for Christians to vote for Trump.The Commish said:Thanks for this GB
Watching now...opening statements and approach (just from a social perspective) is telling. Gonna take a while to get through it, but this is going to be good. I recommend everyone watch this.
This was kind of fascinating to watch, and again, I think EVERYONE interested in this thread should watch the entire thing. I've said on this page probably a billion times that I will vote time and time again for the person I agree with morally and completely disagree with politically over the person I agree with completely politically but completely disagree with morally, so it's natural that I'd find myself nodding A LOT when French is speaking.
On first watch, I left it thinking Metaxas didn't even attempt to make an argument FOR Trump. It was all about the marxists and socialists. Also, I was turned off initially by Metaxas' personality. Apparently he's a radio/podcast personality, so he came off to me as an over-the-top type of person. That's his brand. Contrasting that with French's brand of being a lawyer and I just didn't think he did well from a debate standpoint. It wasn't a fair fight, but I'd posit that's because there aren't many out there who could honestly do better. It's a tough argument to make. I left having little idea what his argument was. Or, I guess maybe I did have a sense, but since he was all over the place it was hard to follow.
My reaction as well. And we've seen those arguments here in the PSF frequently. I've heard them in real life too and tried to have conversations about them, but the gap is in definitions and understanding what words really mean so they usually go nowhere. I have to admit, I am completely lost on his China argument. While I understand the issues in China, the disconnect for me is how the actions he's taking with regard to trade have ANYTHING to do with the issues he discusses. There is nothing we are doing at the moment that is going to address those problems he listed. That was a complete whiff for me. I do agree somewhat with the BLM statements, but I think French addressed that nicely by essentially saying "just because they tout the BLM slogan doesn't mean they are BLM". It's my firm belief that neither party is really good for black people and in my personal experience/discussions most of them don't approach these choices as "who's best going to look out for me" rather "who's going to screw me over the least".
Unless he remained silent on the Clinton thing (and I don't know if he did or not, but based on his answer about what could Trump do to have him not vote Trump this time through, I suspect he didn't) then this is just hollow nonsense because reality is, he DID care....when it was the other side, which is exactly French's point in the opening statements. And yes, the Cyrus thing was a joke. Cyrus was a pretty bad dude, but the moral of that story is basically "see, God can even use the bad people of the world for good", which is true, but it falls flat on it's face when we realize that from God's perspective, we are all bad (sinful) and in the same boat, so everyone that God uses falls into that category.
I think the question was about Trump's faith vs his character/actions. Metaxas' answer focused on the faith part. He said he doesn't see Trump as a born-again, spirit-filled person and he also doesn't' think that factors in to whether or not he would vote for him. Yes, I suspect Metaxas wasn't silent on Clinton. He justified that by saying those were actions while in office (and literally in the physical office) rather than Trump's actions 15 years before entering office. He claims he thinks Trump has changed in that regard. Regardless, that's a discussion about character and actions while in a particular job, which wasn't the context of his answer about the dentist. The dentist comment was only based on faith. Yeah, faith and character are (or should be) connected and I think he just complete ignores that. But, I suppose his argument against Clinton was one not based on what Clinton's faith was. I don't think he cares about Clinton's faith either as a determinant for whether to vote for him.
I watched Metaxas' and was really surprised. It was not very persuasive. It was not accurate.
The GOP support by church-folk has mostly been focused around abortion. I would bet that the majority of single issue voters on the Red side are pro-lifers.
Depends on the brand of "church-folk". I'd argue that those that fall under the banner of religious right are those being described in (yes I'm a broken record) in Let there be Markets.
The GOP appeals to those that believe their good fortune is their earthly reward from God. That the "invisible hand" itself is a god rather than a concept. Is actually God. Thus those that suffer should only be taught to fish because otherwise one is interfering with God's judgment. God forbid that government substitute its wisdom for God's.
It's a focus but my observation is it's inaccurate to say mostly. Especially in certain pockets of the Bible Belt.
Agree. I'd say for people in the church who struggle whether or not to vote for Trump, it's mostly about abortion. But, there are many in the church who are voting for him for many more reasons than abortion.
In my conversations with people, abortion is brought up in the "oh yeah, and abortion" as if it's an afterthought. That's been a relatively new observation....most of the reasons I'm given at first have to do with all the things he said he'd do and hasn't done like the wall Mexico was going to pay for and tax cuts for the middle class.
This wasn't some offhand observation. I am smack dab in the middle of the religious right. I live in Southwest Missouri and regularly attend the largest church within 500 miles, a church that has 14,000 weekly attendees across 4 campuses. Springfield Missouri has often jokingly been called "The Buckle of the Bible Belt".
So Christian's are greedy and self-serving? Certainly would fit in with your worldview I suppose.
In fairness, we are just people, complete with hurts, habits and hangups. Speaking of Springfield, MO, I was born there while my parents attended the Bible college in town.
