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RB Rashaad Penny, PHI (3 Viewers)

Bronco Billy said:
Watching a ton of operations wouldn’t qualify someone to be a surgeon.
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No, but I might hold their opinion in higher regard if I was a layman and we were playing fantasy surgery.

TheDirtyWord said:
Just reading up on Penny, the two things they talked about as weakness were 1) picking up the playbook and 2) pass pro. If these are the weak links in his chain, that’s pretty significant, no?
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Yes, although someone (@Bojang0301?) has posted an article that points to there not being a strong correlation between play time and whether or not a RBs excels in pass pro. It obviously still hurts his chances to some extent, especially considering the fact he's a plus pass catcher who you'd want on the field on 3rd downs or the hurry up.

This also might sound silly but before I watch tape I like to look at player highlight reels so I know what a "big play" might look like for that specific back. I found it kind of odd that his highlights didn't include him actually breaking any tackles despite him being on the bigger side.

Oh hey I found the article.

 
SameSongNDance said:
No, but I might hold their opinion in higher regard if I was a layman and we were playing fantasy surgery.

Yes, although someone (@Bojang0301?) has posted an article that points to there not being a strong correlation between play time and whether or not a RBs excels in pass pro. It obviously still hurts his chances to some extent, especially considering the fact he's a plus pass catcher who you'd want on the field on 3rd downs or the hurry up.

This also might sound silly but before I watch tape I like to look at player highlight reels so I know what a "big play" might look like for that specific back. I found it kind of odd that his highlights didn't include him actually breaking any tackles despite him being on the bigger side.

Oh hey I found the article.
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While I think the pass protection for RB and especially rookie RB may be talked about as a death knell to their playing time, and this article as well as others show that coaches find ways to get good players on the field even if they can't block well.

As stated in the article you link, coaches can call plays so that the RB does not have any blocking responsibilities, they send that player on a pass route instead and there is a lot of truth to that. Bojang posted a tweet that showed what a low percentage of snaps RB were actually blocking on (IIRC this was in the teens to twenties as far as a percentage of their total snaps). That said the data was only from one year, and to be thorough, I would like to see that data over a longer time frame, just to make sure that the sample year used wasn't anomalous itself. So I do not have full confidence in this yet.

What isn't mentioned in the article is that defenses can decide to blitz and to show blitz which will force the RB into a pass protection assignment, and if the RB is bad at protection, they are more likely to force that situation, just like teams exploit other match ups. 

So while pass protection may be over emphasized, it is still very important.

 
SameSongNDance said:
TheDirtyWord said:
Just reading up on Penny, the two things they talked about as weakness were 1) picking up the playbook and 2) pass pro. If these are the weak links in his chain, that’s pretty significant, no?
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Yes, although someone (@Bojang0301?) has posted an article that points to there not being a strong correlation between play time and whether or not a RBs excels in pass pro. It obviously still hurts his chances to some extent, especially considering the fact he's a plus pass catcher who you'd want on the field on 3rd downs or the hurry up.
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Carroll has said a number of times that Penny has the ability and drive to be good in pass pro, he just needs to be coached up. The impression I have is that he wasn't asked to do it in college, so he has to learn it, but the coaching staff is confident he will.

 
rockaction said:
Ah, okay. Well, I'd agree that covering certain types of events does not necessarily make one an "expert," or automatically imbues one with enough knowledge to be an accurate disseminator of information, but we generally give those people a little more weight than a guy dragged in off the street. The professional and employment element of paid news functions as a screen and as coded information for the consumer of the product. It's really an efficiency argument. 
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Beautiful rift of words.  You obviously have not been drinking.  A lot going on there.

 
Biabreakable said:
While I think the pass protection for RB and especially rookie RB may be talked about as a death knell to their playing time, and this article as well as others show that coaches find ways to get good players on the field even if they can't block well.

As stated in the article you link, coaches can call plays so that the RB does not have any blocking responsibilities, they send that player on a pass route instead and there is a lot of truth to that. Bojang posted a tweet that showed what a low percentage of snaps RB were actually blocking on (IIRC this was in the teens to twenties as far as a percentage of their total snaps). That said the data was only from one year, and to be thorough, I would like to see that data over a longer time frame, just to make sure that the sample year used wasn't anomalous itself. So I do not have full confidence in this yet.

What isn't mentioned in the article is that defenses can decide to blitz and to show blitz which will force the RB into a pass protection assignment, and if the RB is bad at protection, they are more likely to force that situation, just like teams exploit other match ups. 

So while pass protection may be over emphasized, it is still very important.
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For reference, per PFF, Seattle's 6 HBs last season (Carson, Prosise, McKissic, Lacy, Rawls, and Mike Davis) combined for 84 pass blocking snaps out of 1054 total snaps = ~8%. And this on a team generally regarded to have a poor pass blocking OL.

So, yeah, I don't think this issue is going to affect Penny's opportunity much. At least not unless he whiffs a couple times and gets Wilson hit or sacked.

 
Just Win Baby said:
For reference, per PFF, Seattle's 6 HBs last season (Carson, Prosise, McKissic, Lacy, Rawls, and Mike Davis) combined for 84 pass blocking snaps out of 1054 total snaps = ~8%. And this on a team generally regarded to have a poor pass blocking OL.

So, yeah, I don't think this issue is going to affect Penny's opportunity much. At least not unless he whiffs a couple times and gets Wilson hit or sacked.
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Do you have access to this so that we could figure out what the average percentage of snaps all RB are asked to pass block?

And for more than one season as well, just to be sure.

I think that would be some useful information to have. Based on your post it might be even less frequent than I recall. I do know some RB block at a higher rate than this though, when they are good at it that is.

 
Biabreakable said:
Do you have access to this so that we could figure out what the average percentage of snaps all RB are asked to pass block?

And for more than one season as well, just to be sure.

I think that would be some useful information to have. Based on your post it might be even less frequent than I recall. I do know some RB block at a higher rate than this though, when they are good at it that is.
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I've said it varies from coach to coach, too. I'd be more interested in seeing it broke down by coach, maybe even QB.

 
Just Win Baby said:
For reference, per PFF, Seattle's 6 HBs last season (Carson, Prosise, McKissic, Lacy, Rawls, and Mike Davis) combined for 84 pass blocking snaps out of 1054 total snaps = ~8%. And this on a team generally regarded to have a poor pass blocking OL.

So, yeah, I don't think this issue is going to affect Penny's opportunity much. At least not unless he whiffs a couple times and gets Wilson hit or sacked.
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Data  :wub:

 
barackdhouse said:
I've said it varies from coach to coach, too. I'd be more interested in seeing it broke down by coach, maybe even QB.
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Yeah. Russ is Houdini and doesn't need a RB to block for him as much as some other QB might.

I was more interested in just the overall average for a sense of how much a RB will typically be asked to block. I am sure this varies quite a bit from team to team and because of other things such as the QB as you point out.

 
Carlos Hyde let the most sack by an RB last year with 3... this stuff is really, really irrelevant to fantasy football. I think the people who have tried to study it come to that conclusion rather quickly when they can’t even find consistent performance year over year for pass blocking efficiency with RB’s.

 
Just Win Baby said:
For reference, per PFF, Seattle's 6 HBs last season (Carson, Prosise, McKissic, Lacy, Rawls, and Mike Davis) combined for 84 pass blocking snaps out of 1054 total snaps = ~8%. And this on a team generally regarded to have a poor pass blocking OL.

So, yeah, I don't think this issue is going to affect Penny's opportunity much. At least not unless he whiffs a couple times and gets Wilson hit or sacked.
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But does the RB come into the game, raise his hand and state ‘I’m pass blocking on this one...’?

 
TheDirtyWord said:
But does the RB come into the game, raise his hand and state ‘I’m pass blocking on this one...’?
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Considering Mike Tolbert has had a long history of strong pass blocking effiecieny. Essentially, yes. When James White comes into a ball game do you think he’s in there to pound the rock, block or run routes out of the backfield?

 
Bojang0301 said:
Considering Mike Tolbert has had a long history of strong pass blocking effiecieny. Essentially, yes. When James White comes into a ball game do you think he’s in there to pound the rock, block or run routes out of the backfield?
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When playing against teams that blitz a ton Belichick has been known to cut back on White's usage. It's actually why I'm not sure he's a great start vs. HOU this week even if Burkhead and Michel are gimpy.

Edit: I guess this is an example of when pass blocking matters? I don't know, it's just a fact I wanted to throw out there. I remember reading about how blitzing impacted pass catching RBs in a PFF article last year. Here it is.

 
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Bojang0301 said:
Considering Mike Tolbert has had a long history of strong pass blocking effiecieny. Essentially, yes. When James White comes into a ball game do you think he’s in there to pound the rock, block or run routes out of the backfield?
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Tolbert blocked on all passing plays AND caught 217 passes in his career?  Wow!  He’s better than I remember.  Plus, as a FB, the idea that Tolbert blocked a lot isn’t a stretch.  As for White, he played 384 offensive snaps, logged 43 carries and 56 receptions.  I suspect on the other 285 offensive snaps he had, there was a combination of route running and blocking.

I would say that the ability for an RB to execute in all 3 phases is important to be available in all the different packages that might exist in the playbook.  So if you have a franchise QB, and you don’t trust him in pass blocking, then that removes that RB from other packages that might have him running routes because otherwise, that’s a giveaway.

 
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TheDirtyWord said:
Tolbert blocked on all passing plays AND caught 217 passes in his career?  Wow!  He’s better than I remember.  Plus, as a FB, the idea that Tolbert blocked a lot isn’t a stretch.  As for White, he played 384 offensive snaps, logged 43 carries and 56 receptions.  I suspect on the other 285 offensive snaps he had, there was a combination of route running and blocking.

I would say that the ability for an RB to execute in all 3 phases is important to be available in all the different packages that might exist in the playbook.  So if you have a franchise QB, and you don’t trust him in pass blocking, then that removes that RB from other packages that might have him running routes because otherwise, that’s a giveaway.
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There is no correlation that it takes away from running routes. 

 
Bad pass blocking backs that can catch run routes. This boils down to whether the back in question can be a weapon out of the backfield and not whether he can block or not. If he is not able to catch then he will not be on the field during passing downs. That’s pretty much the long and short. Will there be more emphasis for plays that call for blocking vs passing? Sure. NFL uses roles. Last I checked though 1 block = zero points, 1 catch = 1 point.

 
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Also, I’ve discussed this all offseason. I’m done with it. Tired of leading horses to water for them to just drop dead. 1990’s football is over. Emphasis is on pass catching not pass blocking. Until someone actually comes up with a study that says RB’s lose pass catching points from inability to block, I really don’t care if someone wants a good pass blocking RB or not.

 
TheDirtyWord said:
Tolbert blocked on all passing plays AND caught 217 passes in his career?  Wow!  He’s better than I remember.  Plus, as a FB, the idea that Tolbert blocked a lot isn’t a stretch.  As for White, he played 384 offensive snaps, logged 43 carries and 56 receptions.  I suspect on the other 285 offensive snaps he had, there was a combination of route running and blocking.

I would say that the ability for an RB to execute in all 3 phases is important to be available in all the different packages that might exist in the playbook.  So if you have a franchise QB, and you don’t trust him in pass blocking, then that removes that RB from other packages that might have him running routes because otherwise, that’s a giveaway.
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This is such a misunderstood idea. I’ve looked it up in the past and almost all third down backs are absolutely terrible blockers by pff. And if they can play on obvious passing downs I don’t see how it’s keeping anyone else off the field. Yet it’s beat to death by the draftniks and fantasy community every offseason. 

 
voiceofunreason said:
This is such a misunderstood idea. I’ve looked it up in the past and almost all third down backs are absolutely terrible blockers by pff. And if they can play on obvious passing downs I don’t see how it’s keeping anyone else off the field. Yet it’s beat to death by the draftniks and fantasy community every offseason. 
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To be fair, backs that suck at blocking will still be asked to identify free defenders and chip or adjust their routes, so there is some skill that needs to be learned before they can get on the field or defenses can attack them. 

 
bostonfred said:
To be fair, backs that suck at blocking will still be asked to identify free defenders and chip or adjust their routes, so there is some skill that needs to be learned before they can get on the field or defenses can attack them. 
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Yes but really only if the C or G who makes the line calls and the QB who makes the adjustments also #### up their jobs. If they do their jobs the RB doesn't really have much to do but move where told and block/chip the blitzer that has been identified for them.

 
Rotoworld:

Rashaad Penny is listed as the No. 2 running back on the Seahawks' initial depth chart.

This would have been a surprise in May but not now. Chris Carson ran circles around Penny all offseason, getting one bouquet after another thrown to him by coach Pete Carroll. Penny struggled, broke his finger and gained a shocking amount of weight (16 pounds since the Combine). Penny is expected to be ready for Sunday's opener against the Broncos, but the depth chart reflects the current reality of the Seahawks' backfield.

Sep 4 - 4:39 PM
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Bojang0301 said:
Man, if I’m a bull with Soulfly and EBF.  :ph34r:

Seriously though, I walked into redraft season telling myself emphatically I would NOT overexpose myself to Penny. Tonight in my last draft I took him in the 8th (coupled with Michel in the 7th). Carson went in the 7th and I’ve seen him go in the 4th/5th in best ball. I’m way, way overexposed Penny. So maybe that makes my opinion moot. I can’t remember the last time 1st round RB’s slipped this bad. Carson runs to contact. That gets you hurt. I don’t like predicting injury though. Carson seems like a good power back. A guy that makes people real excited around here because he’ll run over DB’s but so did Rawls. Both can come away with close to or > 200 carries in Schotty’s offense but I think Penny’s penchant for being elusive and a target out of the backfield will pull him through this. The “weight gain” is another Carrollism. Guy is full of it. Penny could have played the last two weeks and they protected him. Total bias here, but I think they know what they have and we’ll see it soon.
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It looks like I may have Penny fall to me in my keepers draft tonight, which wouldn't have happened for me right after the draft.  Struggling if I shouldn't pass on him too?  Probably will have Ingram, Crowell or Hyde to decide from.  Being a keepers league, I want to take Penny but can't get over the 16 pound gain, is it miss-information?.  Seems unusual for a 1st round pick that should know what it takes to be successful and the opportunity he has ahead of him.  He also should have a lot of monitoring from health (diet), strength and conditioning coaches?  Not sure it adds up.  Is he another Lacy?

 
I mean Penny did look noticeable thicker if you look at pics from SDSU and preseason Seahawks. 

I don't own him but I don't remember too many players who have battled weight issues that have panned out long term so it's at least somewhat of a concern imo and not something that can be totally disregarded.

 
ty247 said:
I mean Penny did look noticeable thicker if you look at pics from SDSU and preseason Seahawks. 

I don't own him but I don't remember too many players who have battled weight issues that have panned out long term so it's at least somewhat of a concern imo and not something that can be totally disregarded.
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The Bus comes to mind, but we dont hear about the players that actually had weight problems (of which there are many more than you think), just the ones that failed to beat their weight problem. Ever see a RB after retirement? Its usually not how you remember them. TOny Gwynn was one of the most suprising when I saw him in person. This is a guy that used to steal bases! LOL

https://www.complex.com/sports/2013/07/athletes-who-got-ridiculously-fat-after-retirement-gallery/

 
mnmplayer said:
The Bus comes to mind, but we dont hear about the players that actually had weight problems (of which there are many more than you think), just the ones that failed to beat their weight problem. Ever see a RB after retirement? Its usually not how you remember them. TOny Gwynn was one of the most suprising when I saw him in person. This is a guy that used to steal bases! LOL

https://www.complex.com/sports/2013/07/athletes-who-got-ridiculously-fat-after-retirement-gallery/
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Tony Gwynn battled weight problems the whole second half of his career, really. 

RIP, Tony. 

That was a red herring and off the track on my end, but I think we can let it slip.  

The question is whether Penny can get back to playing weight. You know they didn't blow a first rounder on him because they think he stinks.  

 
*coughEddieLacycough*

again, I don't want to pile on the guy's plate (more than he already has the last few months) but unless you're an elite talent if you gain a ton of weight fast and you have issues pass blocking where the coaches don't trust you fully... you usually don't get a lead back job.  Carson and Penny are both 5'11 and it's not like Carson has stone hands, so of course they'll roll him out there for now until he learns up pass pro and loses some weight.

 
I watch a few minutes of the start of most of the week 4 preseason games, and I thought it interesting that Carson was the only perceived #1RB I saw play?  Wilson and some of the other starters didn't play either.   And Carson didn't do much with his touches, which may say more about the line, but why would they risk him if they were counting on him for the regular season?  Unless we are going we see Penny coming out party? :excited:

 
LJax said:
I watch a few minutes of the start of most of the week 4 preseason games, and I thought it interesting that Carson was the only perceived #1RB I saw play?  Wilson and some of the other starters didn't play either.   And Carson didn't do much with his touches, which may say more about the line, but why would they risk him if they were counting on him for the regular season?  Unless we are going we see Penny coming out party? :excited:
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Carson played wk4 pre-season? How did I miss that?

 
Weebs210 said:
Lockett played as well. Wouldn't look to much into that one.
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Sure but the door is open at RB ... Carson might be the starter day 1 (and has a legit shot to keep that role as long as he performs), but you can see they are not giving him the typical franchise back or even starting back treatment. 

In 2017 neither Lacy nor Rawls got any carries in wk4 pre-season (they both got carries in week 3) and those were the two favs to start iirc. Seems strange to start and give work to Carson if they really think he is their starter when in prior years they did not treat their RB starters this way.

Of course, Alex Collins also got carries last year and they cut him in favor of Lacy/Rawls so their talent evaluation is suspect anyway.

 
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Rashaad Penny (hand) is practicing in full for Week 1 against the Broncos.

Penny is good to go for Week 1 after sitting out the final weeks of training camp with a broken finger. However, the missed practice reps along with rumors of conditioning issues (he's reportedly put on 16 pounds since the Combine) are causes for concern. Penny will begin his career as a backup for 2017 seventh-rounder Chris Carson.

Source: John Boyle on Twitter 

Sep 5 - 7:35 PM
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Where is everyone with this guy? I drafted him and Michel as my late-round dart-throws (along with Marlon Mack), but now I'm thinking of dropping Penny to get a second defense (I like Chicago season-long, but not this week @ GB.)

My thinking is that Carson will get the start, and it's unlikely Penny will do anything that increases his value. (As opposed to Mack, who people will assume has the starting job once he returns from injury.)

I still don't mind him as a stash, but I figure I can probably get him back once he clears waivers. And if he doesn't, I'm not totally broken up about it.

 
zftcg said:
Where is everyone with this guy? I drafted him and Michel as my late-round dart-throws (along with Marlon Mack), but now I'm thinking of dropping Penny to get a second defense (I like Chicago season-long, but not this week @ GB.)

My thinking is that Carson will get the start, and it's unlikely Penny will do anything that increases his value. (As opposed to Mack, who people will assume has the starting job once he returns from injury.)

I still don't mind him as a stash, but I figure I can probably get him back once he clears waivers. And if he doesn't, I'm not totally broken up about it.
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Chaka said:
He went as the RB23 at 06.05 in my 12 team, ppr, super-flex redraft yesterday.  Felt like a big reach as someone's RB2 at that price.
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Carson went as RB43 at 11.01 so some people still believe that, ultimately this will be Penny's job. Personally I think Carson is good enough to at least cap Penny's upside this year (and at most keep Penny in a limited role coming off the bench).

 
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Chaka said:
Carson went as RB43 at 11.01 so some people still believe that, ultimately this will be Penny's job. Personally I think Carson is good enough to at least cap Penny's upside this year (and at most keep Penny in a limited role coming off the bench).
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At this point, the things that gives Penny the most upside are his pedigree and the near-certainty that Carson will get hurt. But there are a lot of red flags (his current backup status, Penny's own injury, reports of him being out of shape, Seattle's horrible O-line) that significantly raise his risk profile

 
Seahawks OC Brian Schottenheimer won't force touches to No. 2 RB Rashaad Penny.

"We don't necessarily have, 'OK, gotta get this guy so many carries, gotta get this guy so many touches,'" Schottenheimer said. "We'll just kind of see how the flow of the game goes." Schottenheimer did say he was anxious to get all his running backs work against the Broncos, but signs continue to point toward Chris Carson being the clear-cut No. 1.

Source: Brady Henderson on Twitter 

Sep 6 - 8:53 PM
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The Frankman said:
*coughEddieLacycough*

again, I don't want to pile on the guy's plate (more than he already has the last few months) but unless you're an elite talent if you gain a ton of weight fast and you have issues pass blocking where the coaches don't trust you fully... you usually don't get a lead back job.  Carson and Penny are both 5'11 and it's not like Carson has stone hands, so of course they'll roll him out there for now until he learns up pass pro and loses some weight.
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I want a penny fan at all. So having said that can you name some quality rbs that were benched because of past blocking? 

 
Faust said:
"The team will not force carries to Penny" - paraphrased.
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Can someone explain why a coach would say this about a first round pedigree pass catching prodigy? Doesn't align with my paradigm. 

 
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georg013 said:
Can someone explain why a coach would say this about a first round pedigree pass catching prodigy? Doesn't align with my paradigm. 
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Because Penny is not ready right now.  Penny will start off slow but will eventually have 50% of the touches this season.  Early in the season, it should be almost all Carson.

 
DocHolliday said:
Because Penny is not ready right now.  Penny will start off slow but will eventually have 50% of the touches this season.  Early in the season, it should be almost all Carson.
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If Carson balls out, why?  He was playing real well last year prior to his injury - was on pace for 600 snaps.  His time on the field was without Duane Brown.  And Carson’s only gotten rave reviews this year.  If he shows well as the bellcow, how does Penny usurp him?

 
TheDirtyWord said:
If Carson balls out, why?  He was playing real well last year prior to his injury - was on pace for 600 snaps.  His time on the field was without Duane Brown.  And Carson’s only gotten rave reviews this year.  If he shows well as the bellcow, how does Penny usurp him?
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When? He had one decent game.

 
TheDirtyWord said:
First game in 26 snaps, had 49 YFS.
Next game - he had the 100 YFS
Third game against a tough run D - put up 52 YFS and a TD.
Game he got injured in was probably his least productive...
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He had one good game vs the 49ers.

Not saying he's bad, heck I drafted him so I hope he's awesome, but I think people are a little rosey with their memories of last year.

 
You need to be nervous about a 1st round RB who can't beat out a JAG at RB.

Now, maybe Carson isn't Just a Guy. but that's not much better news.  

 
TheDirtyWord said:
If Carson balls out, why?  He was playing real well last year prior to his injury - was on pace for 600 snaps.  His time on the field was without Duane Brown.  And Carson’s only gotten rave reviews this year.  If he shows well as the bellcow, how does Penny usurp him?
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For the record, I drafted Carson two rounds after Penny was drafted.  I hope he looks great and keeps the job all season.  But, rave reviews about players from that player's team mean little to me.  Let's see him ball out for a few games before we determine he is a bellcow. 

Carson should get most of the touches to start the season but Seattle did not draft Penny in the first round to keep him on the bench.  

 
DocHolliday said:
For the record, I drafted Carson two rounds after Penny was drafted.  I hope he looks great and keeps the job all season.  But, rave reviews about players from that player's team mean little to me.  Let's see him ball out for a few games before we determine he is a bellcow. 

Carson should get most of the touches to start the season but Seattle did not draft Penny in the first round to keep him on the bench.  
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My original point was driven off someone else's assumption that Penny would simply ascend to a 50/50 timeshare.  If CC balls out, and that is an if, I think that assumption is faulty.

BTW, there is work for both.  It's a pretty wide-open snap re-allotment situation.  Could work out to a 600/400 split assuming a 1000 snaps this season.  No incumbent.

 
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