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Women's hockey wants NHL to pay for their league (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter TheIronSheik
- Start date
they aren't on tv so I'm guessing the number is near zero
I have no idea what the attendance numbers are, but we had two competing leagues before. would be more optimistic for some traction with a single league that had backing of the NHL and other sponsors/investors behind it.
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TheIronSheik
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Sure. And if I could get more dogs interested in the puppy bowl, I could grow the sport of football.
I get what you're saying, but you can't force things. If no one is watching, maybe it's because women aren't interested.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
How many NBA fans are watching the WNBA?
I'm not sure if you're seriously arguing this or not. Because it makes zero sense. You keep saying it'll help the NHL but there is zero proof of that.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
for the 5 team NWHL, the average attendance per game was 954. Minnesota was highest at 1200 and Connecticut was lowest at 423.
The CWHL had lower numbers for their league I believe.
I'm not really arguing that at all, so let's not misrepresent people.
I'm saying it's up to the NHL to decide how valuable they believe a women's pro league is. Pretty good chance they see more value in it than you do though.
I don't have any idea what's going on with the WNBA so I'm not a good person to speak to that situation.
My only argument, if it even is one, is that the women here are making a tough choice with plenty of risk involved but what they are doing certainly makes sense and will hopefully be in the best interest of the long-term future of the sport.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Has this theory been proven to be true?
The WNBA has been around for over 20 years. They are still struggling to get fans. The demographic they struggle with the most(at least according to Adam Silver last year) is young women. It is mostly supported by old dudes that say they like fundamental basketball.
But even after 20 years of young women not supporting the league, what do we keep hearing about for the WNBA? It isn't promoted the same as men's, the athletes arent paid as much, playing in europe takes away from promoting the sport here, ESPN needs to show equal highlights, blah blah blah.
If you want to build a professional women's league, you need to cultivate the fanbase for it first, not the other way around.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
You keep saying this. I'm just going off of finances. It is cut and dry that this league is a money pit. The only way the NHL puts any money into this is because of a PR move. And I honestly think that's what this "boycott" is meant to be.
Hockey fans do not just watch any hockey game that's on. If that we're true, the minor league MEN'S teams would be making a profit.
mr. furley
Footballguy
"..the NHL, flush with cash... The average team makes $25 million in profit, according to Forbes."
wasn't the NHL nearly insolvent not so many years ago? like "we're not sure we can have a league anymore" insolvent? i don't follow so not sure.. just something rattling around in my brain.
also, i'm curious about the "average profit" figure. are the teams required to report revenues and profit? could those numbers be inflated? deflated?
wasn't the NHL nearly insolvent not so many years ago? like "we're not sure we can have a league anymore" insolvent? i don't follow so not sure.. just something rattling around in my brain.
also, i'm curious about the "average profit" figure. are the teams required to report revenues and profit? could those numbers be inflated? deflated?
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I watch as much hockey as I possibly can, but I agree that's not the norm.
what league is a money pit? I thought the NWHL doesn't share their finances, so how would anyone know that to be true?
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I 100% agree that this should be the only question any one cares about.
But for me, how this is evolving with the social justice angle, I fear instead of the NHL deciding on value, they may be forced to consider whether they are being setup to look like the bad guy who did not help women's sports. I personally wish that this had all happened behind closed doors (leagues fold, NHL steps in and decides what they want to do, with no outside pressure). But that cat is out of the bag now.
I applaud the women for trying this as it appears to be their last hope but I don't enjoy any business situation that may be predicated on a form of social ransom.
mr. furley
Footballguy
1000000% this seems to be the case
this is a last-ditch PR campaign.. i'd bet that someone the women's league hired to help out with cooked up. but look at all the news it's getting them (relatively.... compared to what was before) so at least it's sort of working???
Dickie Dunn
Footballguy
The only part of this I can’t quite figure out is why some are criticizing the NHL for “only” contributing $100k to the NWHL ... a league the boycotting players are trying to kill because they don’t trust it to do the right thing.
While it makes sense they would contribute little to a league if they don't believe in the business model, that's still a comically low amount if they truly care about women's pro hockey at all. I think it's the monthly salary of a player who makes the NHL minimum or basically $3k per NHL team.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Pretty sure I read in one of the articles that the same agency involved last time is involved this time.
Dickie Dunn
Footballguy
My understanding is they contributed the $50k to the CWHL to cover the shortages for the payroll, then the $50k to the NWHL to avoid not being fair and consistent.
But I can’t fault them for not wanting to get any further involved in a business model they don’t believe works. I can understand the thought process of wanting to have more control over the product if they’re going to be stepping up their financial obligation (risk).
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Billie jean king weighs in...
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
belljr
Footballguy
I'm somewhere on the middle on this but guys playing rooking MLB ball (meaning just before singla A) - make like 3K for the summer. They do get some signing bonuses. How is that any different? Should MLB invest more money into their own?
rockaction
Footballguy
I think I've reiterated enough that the social justice angle of this is prominent and miscalculated. It's also a giant turn off.
Dear Lord. Hasn't she had her day already? Billie Jean King, '70s feminist extraordinaire. Boring. Dated.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
the deserve angle is just awful. I can't see how any one who says that does not realize how bad it sounds.
rockaction
Footballguy
It's terrible. It's wrought with emotive feelings of acceptance and validation rather than logic and fact. Nobody in our system "deserves" the sporting life they've envisioned, especially that which depends upon voluntary consumption.
So lacking in fundamental realities and entitled, that statement. Billie Jean did indeed have her day because the WTA brought in a ton of money back in the day through sponsorships and pressure and television ratings. Those days are not quite on the horizon for women's hockey.
Solidarity is nice, reality and demand for a sport is different. Tennis has and always will be an upper-middle class sport, a class where gender differences are often muted both socially and physically. People in that class are and were interested in women's tennis. Women's tennis is like figure skating in a way. There's a high demand to watch it and be entertained.
Basketball and hockey and baseball and football are for the proles, and the proles want to see it done well, not by women.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
They have a league they can play in.
The NHL
If they can’t make those teams why should they get subsidized to play in a league that can’t pay for itself?
What about paralympians? Don’t they deserve a league to play in? To “grow interest in hockey”
What about people born with dwarfism? I would love to see some Tyrions on skates showing off their stick handling ability.
This is not an equality issue. If a woman wants to play professional sports she can. In the existing leagues.
The NHL
If they can’t make those teams why should they get subsidized to play in a league that can’t pay for itself?
What about paralympians? Don’t they deserve a league to play in? To “grow interest in hockey”
What about people born with dwarfism? I would love to see some Tyrions on skates showing off their stick handling ability.
This is not an equality issue. If a woman wants to play professional sports she can. In the existing leagues.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
What about all the poor kids in Africa who would love to make a living playing ice hockey? Unless the NHL is racist and just doesn't want to grow the game.
so many weird takes in this thread
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
With proper facilities, training, and medical staff I could have gone somewhere playing horseshoes.
#leanersrule #hoofhearted #idid
#leanersrule #hoofhearted #idid
rockaction
Footballguy
I admit that my class thing I just brought up and digressed upon may seem weird, but explained further, it might be less of a hot take than would otherwise seem. Ask Thorsten Veblen or Paul Fussell.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
I doubt I am alone when I say that I had no clue whatsoever that there was a women's hockey league. If it wasn't for this thread, I still wouldn't know as I have seen it talked or written about exactly nowhere. So I'm not real sure I agree with your take above.
I meant bad for the players and fans of women’s hockey. Obviously most people wouldn’t notice or care.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
What will those 62 fans do if they don't have professional women's hockey anymore?
EYLive
Footballguy
Basically, the NHL could think of injecting money into a women's league as a long term marketing plan for hockey. The women's league will likely be a money pit but if they can cultivate a generation of female fans, it might be worth it in the long run.
Give it 10 years and see if results in higher TV ratings, ticket sales, merchandise sales etc. If there's no improvement, cut the cord.
Give it 10 years and see if results in higher TV ratings, ticket sales, merchandise sales etc. If there's no improvement, cut the cord.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
TheIronSheik
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10 years of throwing money away to see if maybe viewership goes up?
There is exactly zero data that shows a women's league will increase NHL viewership. Companies tend not to take flyers with their money. They like to invest in things that have a good chance of making money. Low risk.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.
TheIronSheik
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TheIronSheik
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I assumed he was being held hostage and people were demanding some kind of payment for him.
What did Bettman say?
I posted some above in this thread.
here's another interview: https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/commissioner-gary-bettman-says-nhl-wont-interfere-nwhl/
this seems to sum it up though:
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
Sounds like he's saying "We're not going to give any more money" in the nicest way possible.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
From a business point of view I am always interested in the marketing angle. If you notice, many of the comments from the players are that they feel they(and their sport/league) have not been properly marketed.
While marketing is a really strong tool, it only goes so far. The NHL people are likely very well aware that the WNBA received enormous amounts of marketing $'s in their formative years. It certainly helped the WNBA kick off with a relatively good business posture but they were never able to build on it and eventually the marketing dollars dropped as the interest level dropped for the league.
While marketing is a really strong tool, it only goes so far. The NHL people are likely very well aware that the WNBA received enormous amounts of marketing $'s in their formative years. It certainly helped the WNBA kick off with a relatively good business posture but they were never able to build on it and eventually the marketing dollars dropped as the interest level dropped for the league.
Doug B
Footballguy
From Rude's last post ... "... an NHL for women ..."
Just thought of a way this could work if the NHL decides to invest in a women's league: share logistics with the current NHL.
Have 8 WNHL teams or so in existing NHL cities. The women's teams travel with the men's teams. They play the same opponents as the men's teams when the men's teams are playing opponents with WNHL affiliates (e.g. NY Rangers @ Detroit Red Wings would play the night before/after the Lady Rangers @ Lady Red Wings).
One thing about pro hockey I don't know: can two games be played on the same ice on the same day thanks to the Zamboni? Maybe on Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, there can be WNHL/NHL double headers. The ladies at noon, the men at 5:00 p.m.?
With this scheme, payroll processing, general administration, insurance, healthcare, etc. can all be folded in together.
Just thought of a way this could work if the NHL decides to invest in a women's league: share logistics with the current NHL.
Have 8 WNHL teams or so in existing NHL cities. The women's teams travel with the men's teams. They play the same opponents as the men's teams when the men's teams are playing opponents with WNHL affiliates (e.g. NY Rangers @ Detroit Red Wings would play the night before/after the Lady Rangers @ Lady Red Wings).
One thing about pro hockey I don't know: can two games be played on the same ice on the same day thanks to the Zamboni? Maybe on Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, there can be WNHL/NHL double headers. The ladies at noon, the men at 5:00 p.m.?
With this scheme, payroll processing, general administration, insurance, healthcare, etc. can all be folded in together.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
This makes a lot of sense but both soccer and basketball have tried this model in years past, trying to link men's and women's team's together and both have failed for various reasons.
I don't know whether or not hockey could make it work. One of the keys will be is how to manage the cost of opening and running a large venue for a 1000-2000 fans over numerous games
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
The NBA bailed after 5 years on the WNBA, leaving them to figure it out themselves as many NBA owners were sick of losing money.
When MLS near collapsed in 2001 it was after just 5 years as well. At that time, Hunt got Kraft and Anschutz to agree to a 5 year plan when every one else bailed.
Ten years is a very long time, depending on the level of investment.
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EYLive
Footballguy
Sure, but you can't expect to gain a generation of fans by halfassing a marketing campaign. You're either fully committed or you're not.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
Then they are not. They will choose to grow their base with smaller investments with safer returns.
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