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2019-20 NBA Thread: Blazers sign Carmelo Anthony in attempt to make team actively worse

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Courtjester said:

The Lakers will begin ringing the phones of every basketball player with a pulse who will take a one year deal (ala last year) so they have a 12 man roster. Does anyone think D.Wade's phone number won't be called? C. Anthony? Paul Pierce? Lamar Odom?  Greg Oden's good knee. The ghost of Jack Haley...hell, anyone who will take a one and done deal is in play for this team at this point. 

Luke Walton could still drop some shots and Chris Paul could finally become a Laker. I smell championship.

Edited by ffldrew

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5 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Does Ball and 1.04 get the 1.03?  To much for Barrett?

Ball is a polarizing player.  No idea what the Knicks think of him.  But a problem is that would bite into their ability to sign two max free agents. I think they should stick with their plan and hope for the best.

 

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Posted (edited)

Kemba would be such a great fit for the Lakers, but if they only have that $23.7 cap space figure, that’s not going to be enough.

My understanding is delaying until July 30 might make it difficult for New Orleans to trade one of the pieces such as the #4 pick because the acquiring team would also have to agree to the delay.

Shocking that this hasn’t already been decided. Maybe LeBron isn’t as good of a GM as he thinks he is.

Edited by Juxtatarot

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8 minutes ago, scoobus said:

Is R.J. Barrett actually that good?

rated about the same as fellow Canuck Wiggins was, and look at the fine work he's done as a Minnesota traffic cone.

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In looking at what the Lakers gave up, on the player side I'm not too upset by it.  Hart is a decent rotation player on a very cheap deal, but the Lakers scouting department has been able to find guys late in the draft and hopefully can do so again.  Ingram has the most potential of any player the Lakers gave up, but with James under contract and Davis coming over, having another forward who is most useful with the ball in his hands regularly (and is not a good 3-point shooter) becomes a waste of resources.  And with Ball, I still think he'll be good, as his court vision is still great and he was becoming a defensive force, but he's still a guy who is shooting less than 32% from 3 and less than 44% from the free throw line (and going there less than 1 time per game), which puts such a ceiling on his game in this age of offenses built on layups, free throws, and 3 pointers (sending Lavar to New Orleans is an added bonus).  Also, if those players go on to really great things and fix those deficiencies I think it will illustrate, among other things, how poor the Lakers' player development was during Walton's time.  I hope the players go on to play very well, as I enjoyed watching them work to improve as players and their attitudes were always good, especially given the ridiculous sideshows that were present during their time as Lakers.

As far as the draft capital goes, it is a lot to surrender and it certainly reinforces the narrative (and my belief) that Pelinka sucks at his job and Buss missed a great opportunity to completely clean house when Magic quit (so do the stories going around that the Pelicans plan to execute the trade as soon as possible, which won't allow the Lakers to retain max cap space).  That said, it's quite possible the picks don't become as bad as they look right now.  If Davis signs an extension after next season, the Lakers could conceivably have him as a centerpiece through the 2024-25 season.  Given that Lebron is signed through the 21/22 season, if he opts in to his final year at $41 million, that first rounder at the end of the 20/21 season shouldn't be too high a pick, barring unforeseen disasters.  After the 21/22 season, it would be reasonable to assume that the cap space opened up by the end of Lebron's contract could be used to sign a different max-level player at that point, which would still give LA Davis in his prime and (hopefully) another top 15-level NBA player.  Hopefully Davis and Max Player John Doe would be able to lead the Lakers through the 24/25 season well enough that the pick swaps in '23 and '25 never happen, and the unprotected pick in '24 will be the first round pick of a playoff team/title contender.  

Of course, plenty could go wrong between now and then, but a reasonable set of circumstances exist where those picks aren't too painful to give up.  That said, I don't think Pelinka needed to give up as much as he did in that area considering the Knicks didn't really have much to offer outside of the #3 pick and it seems as if the Celtics never were willing to put Tatum on the table with Kyrie appearing to be headed to New Jersey and Davis' agent doing his best to keep Boston from trading for him.  While the Lakers didn't have all the leverage, they still had plenty of it as the Pels had to deal AD and probably wanted to do it by draft day in order to ensure the #4 pick was a player they wanted.  And then not negotiating a later date for finalizing the trade is just such an oversight that it highlights just how much of a love/hate relationship many Laker fans have with the franchise right now.  Love the team, hate the front office.

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14 minutes ago, The Kansas Comet said:

In looking at what the Lakers gave up, on the player side I'm not too upset by it.  Hart is a decent rotation player on a very cheap deal, but the Lakers scouting department has been able to find guys late in the draft and hopefully can do so again.  Ingram has the most potential of any player the Lakers gave up, but with James under contract and Davis coming over, having another forward who is most useful with the ball in his hands regularly (and is not a good 3-point shooter) becomes a waste of resources.  And with Ball, I still think he'll be good, as his court vision is still great and he was becoming a defensive force, but he's still a guy who is shooting less than 32% from 3 and less than 44% from the free throw line (and going there less than 1 time per game), which puts such a ceiling on his game in this age of offenses built on layups, free throws, and 3 pointers (sending Lavar to New Orleans is an added bonus).  Also, if those players go on to really great things and fix those deficiencies I think it will illustrate, among other things, how poor the Lakers' player development was during Walton's time.  I hope the players go on to play very well, as I enjoyed watching them work to improve as players and their attitudes were always good, especially given the ridiculous sideshows that were present during their time as Lakers.

As far as the draft capital goes, it is a lot to surrender and it certainly reinforces the narrative (and my belief) that Pelinka sucks at his job and Buss missed a great opportunity to completely clean house when Magic quit (so do the stories going around that the Pelicans plan to execute the trade as soon as possible, which won't allow the Lakers to retain max cap space).  That said, it's quite possible the picks don't become as bad as they look right now.  If Davis signs an extension after next season, the Lakers could conceivably have him as a centerpiece through the 2024-25 season.  Given that Lebron is signed through the 21/22 season, if he opts in to his final year at $41 million, that first rounder at the end of the 20/21 season shouldn't be too high a pick, barring unforeseen disasters.  After the 21/22 season, it would be reasonable to assume that the cap space opened up by the end of Lebron's contract could be used to sign a different max-level player at that point, which would still give LA Davis in his prime and (hopefully) another top 15-level NBA player.  Hopefully Davis and Max Player John Doe would be able to lead the Lakers through the 24/25 season well enough that the pick swaps in '23 and '25 never happen, and the unprotected pick in '24 will be the first round pick of a playoff team/title contender.  

Of course, plenty could go wrong between now and then, but a reasonable set of circumstances exist where those picks aren't too painful to give up.  That said, I don't think Pelinka needed to give up as much as he did in that area considering the Knicks didn't really have much to offer outside of the #3 pick and it seems as if the Celtics never were willing to put Tatum on the table with Kyrie appearing to be headed to New Jersey and Davis' agent doing his best to keep Boston from trading for him.  While the Lakers didn't have all the leverage, they still had plenty of it as the Pels had to deal AD and probably wanted to do it by draft day in order to ensure the #4 pick was a player they wanted.  And then not negotiating a later date for finalizing the trade is just such an oversight that it highlights just how much of a love/hate relationship many Laker fans have with the franchise right now.  Love the team, hate the front office.

The Knicks did have the Dallas picks to give up and presumably their other near term picks are presumably worth more with Durant’s injury.  

Presumably, the #3 pick this year, both the Dallas and NY picks in 2021, and a 2023 pick swap would be worth more, but who knows.  The play isn’t so much the picks themselves, but the volatility play that there will be a one year slip up in there as Lebron ages.  That being said, AD himself kills a lot of the value in that play.  

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57 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

rated about the same as fellow Canuck Wiggins was, and look at the fine work he's done as a Minnesota traffic cone.

Is that true?  I thought Wiggins was a bit better thought of as an all around player?

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9 hours ago, timschochet said:

In the NBA draft picks are worth less than in any other league.

 

That's entirely untrue.

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9 hours ago, timschochet said:

In the NBA draft picks are worth less than in any other league.

 

This really is a crazy statement now that truck points it out

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7 hours ago, Capella said:

Stoked that Tim is back to tell us 3-point shooting is necessary in today’s game. 

It's quintessential Lakersism.

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23 hours ago, Yogibear said:

I guess this means we won't ever hear of Lonzo Ball's dad ever again now that his son is in New Orleans.🌞☀️

Can Lonzo Ball legitimately play? I've always held his father's antics against him and assumed without the Big Baller hype and Pop's mouth, Lonzo and brothers weren't much as NBA players.

Lonzo Ball is the one player I didn't want the Pelicans to get. Is he better than I think?

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Lavar and Lonzo go from LA to NOLA.   It's like a reverse Beverly Hillbillies.

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I would like to officially announce that I am a Los Angeles Lakers fan for the upcoming 2019-2020 season.

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13 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Can Lonzo Ball legitimately play? I've always held his father's antics against him and assumed without the Big Baller hype and Pop's mouth, Lonzo and brothers weren't much as NBA players.

Lonzo Ball is the one player I didn't want the Pelicans to get. Is he better than I think?

Yes.

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15 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Can Lonzo Ball legitimately play? I've always held his father's antics against him and assumed without the Big Baller hype and Pop's mouth, Lonzo and brothers weren't much as NBA players.

Lonzo Ball is the one player I didn't want the Pelicans to get. Is he better than I think?

Probably.

lonzo definitely has talent and has had some injury issues that have stunted is development.

 

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22 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Can Lonzo Ball legitimately play? I've always held his father's antics against him and assumed without the Big Baller hype and Pop's mouth, Lonzo and brothers weren't much as NBA players.

Lonzo Ball is the one player I didn't want the Pelicans to get. Is he better than I think?

he's a shorter Simmons with the blips instead of the yips and a lout (pops) instead of a pout. lotsa game in both -

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7 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

Lakers roster at the moment:

LeBron, Davis, Kuzma, Mo Wagner, Isaac Bonga.  

No draft picks.

There's a lot of holes to fill.

Any dummy could have overpaid for Davis, which Pelinka did. Now let's see how good of a GM (or is LBJ the GM?) he is when he has $30MM to fill 8 roster spots.

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6 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

he's a shorter Simmons with the blips instead of the yips and a lout (pops) instead of a pout. lotsa game in both -

Maybe getting out of L.A. will be good for the guy.

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I think Comet makes some good points, the biggest being that the Lakers HAD to do this. The moment they signed LBJ, they had to win now.; I mean all this talk last year about being patient with the system and developing a chemistry with the existing players was a joke. No one believed Bron was going to sit back and let it form into something--this was always about winning now because the clock is ticking.  That IMO is why this deal is so bad for the Lakers,

My prediction is this year they make the playoffs, but the lack of depth (and we will hear the word "chemistry" a lot) will be their downfall. Year two is where it gets interesting--to me this is where they (with the right moves) are able to contend for a title. That's the prime spot.  Bron is not Superman. He has a two year window--it happens or it doesn't and then those next year picks and swaps become like an anchor around their necks because that team is going to be bad and those could be lottery level picks. 

I am dropping a bit on my Nuggets at this point--Houston/Denver for the WC finals is my call, but it is early.....

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2 hours ago, Long Ball Larry said:

Is that true?  I thought Wiggins was a bit better thought of as an all around player?

Well one apparently has the work ethic of Trump and well the other doesn’t.

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2 minutes ago, Sammy3469 said:

Well one apparently has the work ethic of Trump and well the other doesn’t.

Sure, I just mean the way they were thought of as prospects.  There was certainly some discussion when Wiggins came out, but I thought he was the relatively clear number 1.

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12 minutes ago, Long Ball Larry said:

Sure, I just mean the way they were thought of as prospects.  There was certainly some discussion when Wiggins came out, but I thought he was the relatively clear number 1.

Wiggins was always the better “athlete”, Barrett has better body control, strength, etc around the basket.  Basically one can get to where he wants to if it’s a straight line and the other can absorb contact.  My sense is if Barrett has NBA space, he’ll be fine, but who knows.  He could easily mirror Wiggins “career”.

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2 hours ago, Good Posting Judge said:

That's entirely untrue.

Yea. Baseball draft picks are worth almost nothing. If anything, an NBA lottery pick is THE MOST valuable of all sports. 

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Feel like everyone is sleeping on a couple of teams, namely the Pacers and Nuggets.  Both teams still have a lot of room to grow with individual players, and Indy has Oladipo coming back. If either team can add a significant piece via trade, FA or draft, they have the chance to be legitimate contenders.  I also still like Utah as a dark horse, but they are further away than the other two.

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49 minutes ago, Long Ball Larry said:

Sure, I just mean the way they were thought of as prospects.  There was certainly some discussion when Wiggins came out, but I thought he was the relatively clear number 1.

You are right. He was way more highly thought of than Barrett. 

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Posted (edited)

Are people still sleeping on Garland? I think he's an NBA-ready point and will be the Trae Young of this draft.

Edited by Jayrod

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8 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Feel like everyone is sleeping on a couple of teams, namely the Pacers and Nuggets.  Both teams still have a lot of room to grow with individual players, and Indy has Oladipo coming back. If either team can add a significant piece via trade, FA or draft, they have the chance to be legitimate contenders.  I also still like Utah as a dark horse, but they are further away than the other two.

Pacers have  Bogdanovic, Young and Collison as free agents among others.  Might not be easy to keep that team together.

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i think Bogdanovic is a luxury when Oladipo is healthy.  They need Young and if not Collison, someone like him.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, The Kansas Comet said:

As far as the draft capital goes, it is a lot to surrender and it certainly reinforces the narrative (and my belief) that Pelinka sucks at his job

I figure at least one of those picks, beyond the #4 this year, will be a pretty good one. The other major problem I have with this deal is that the Lakers are now basically at the mercy of Rich Paul. The draft picks and that situation are huge risks.

On another note, a little over a year ago my dad and I went to a talk Kareem gave at the Ambassador auditorium in Pasadena. When they opened the floor up to questions, one that came in was, what will the Lakers do with their roster. Remember at this time they did not have LeBron. Kareem said, pretty confidently, that the Lakers would get Lebron, Anthony Davis and Kawhi Leonard. I thought he was crazy. He's 2-3 right now.

Edited by Gr00vus
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4 hours ago, Good Posting Judge said:

I would like to officially announce that I am a Los Angeles Lakers fan for the upcoming 2019-2020 season.

Been a lakers fan since 1979. Had a (butch) carter jersey back in the day. 

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4 hours ago, EYLive said:

Any dummy could have overpaid for Davis, which Pelinka did. Now let's see how good of a GM (or is LBJ the GM?) he is when he has $30MM to fill 8 roster spots.

Not an issue. Mid level exception guys come left and right trying to get a ring when they see superstars.  Those who have already made their money.  They have 6 under contract. 3 starters. Go get Walker or whomever. Surround by cheaper role players who fill a need. D, 3 point shooting etc 

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Reporter after reporter has said the same two things regarding Brooklyn in free agency:

1. Kyrie to the Nets is practically a foregone conclusion

2. If Kyrie signs, Russell is gone.

From a basketbal perspective this probably makes sense, Kyrie > DLo and they are not a good fit together. On the other hand, Russell dragged the Nets out from the depths of basketball hell and it would be kinda ####ty to kick him to the curb once a slightly better player comes along. He’s a fan favorite and is the poster child for Brooklyn’s rebuild. Really hope they can keep him somehow, but the odds aren’t looking great.

(All might be forgiven if Kyrie enables them to land KD or Kawhi, but that’s an awfully high bar to clear. Trading two first rounders for cap space and letting a homegrown 23-y.o. all-star walk all so you can end up with Kyrie and Tobias Harris would be a huge disappointment)

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

Been a lakers fan since 1979. Had a (butch) carter jersey back in the day. 

That's a name I had not thought of for a long time.  I went to his basketball camp in Southern California when I was a boy.

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6 hours ago, Long Ball Larry said:

Is that true?  I thought Wiggins was a bit better thought of as an all around player?

I remember Wiggins being hyped up a lot more than Barrett.

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2 hours ago, Judge Smails said:

Not an issue. Mid level exception guys come left and right trying to get a ring when they see superstars.  Those who have already made their money.  They have 6 under contract. 3 starters. Go get Walker or whomever. Surround by cheaper role players who fill a need. D, 3 point shooting etc 

You're vying with Tim for most Delusional Post in the Thread with this silliness. It's going to take an extremely talented front office to prevent the Lakers from becoming BKN 2.0 with this trade and Pelinka & Co. have already proven their utter ineptness at everything else basketball related so I don't know where you think they are getting all these extra IQ points from.

They were desperate to get AD to avoid the perception of being even more clueless, saving the proof for when they try to pull this off with their one mid-level exception at ~$9MM.  They'd be better off splitting up that money for a few OK players and similarly splitting up their max contract space for 2/3 pretty good players, but the headlines wouldn't be as flashy which is exactly why they won't do it.

Continually overestimating players' desire to come play for the Lakers and making decisions based on getting approval from the casual fan are major reasons their situation is so dire in the first place. They just made it worse.

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1 hour ago, Good Posting Judge said:

7-1 odds Pelinka never even thought about this. Heck, 70-1.

Griffin's gonna get Kuzma, too.

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That is beautiful. Pelicans will want all their new young guys together in summer league, particularly that #4 pick who they may flip to someone else that wants them early. 

Gotta wonder if they make these moves if KD and Klay are healthy and staying with Warriors. Seems like panic move to get Lebron vets/stars to win now. Meanwhile, he needs shooters, not a big man. 

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man the lakers are going to be mad when the brow leaves after next season to join up with anteaternintendo in brew town that is for sure take that to the bank bromigos 

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5 hours ago, bananafish said:

You're vying with Tim for most Delusional Post in the Thread with this silliness. It's going to take an extremely talented front office to prevent the Lakers from becoming BKN 2.0 with this trade and Pelinka & Co. have already proven their utter ineptness at everything else basketball related so I don't know where you think they are getting all these extra IQ points from.

They were desperate to get AD to avoid the perception of being even more clueless, saving the proof for when they try to pull this off with their one mid-level exception at ~$9MM.  They'd be better off splitting up that money for a few OK players and similarly splitting up their max contract space for 2/3 pretty good players, but the headlines wouldn't be as flashy which is exactly why they won't do it.

Continually overestimating players' desire to come play for the Lakers and making decisions based on getting approval from the casual fan are major reasons their situation is so dire in the first place. They just made it worse.

Yeah, but they have jermerrio jones and isaac bonga under contract already.

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18 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

Here are your moves.  That gives $22 million in cap space.  They could get a little more by renouncing a few other players.

Spotrac did not list Irving or Horford as cap holds, so that explains the difference in available cap space (they were counted as $0). Not sure why, but Spotrac has Shane Larkin as a cap hold that could be released while ShamSports does not. Not sure why that is. Spotrac also has the Celtics listed as having $450,000 and $1.35 million in roster exceptions available.

If Boston starts out with Hayward, Smart, Tatum, Baynes, Brown, Yabuselle, Williams, Ojeleye, and signs / rosters three first round picks, adding in the money from renouncing Larkin and the roster exceptions, that would get Boston to roughly $30.6 million to work with (in theory if the math is right).

Of course, that also means they don't have Kyrie, Horford, Morris, and Rozier. I am also not sure how the cap works if a team drafts a player and puts him in the G league or has him play overseas.

Again in theory, if the Celtics moved a couple of pieces or draft picks, they might approach getting up to having a max contract available. Personally, they haven't been able to attract a premium free agent and instead have given max deals to players that shouldn't have been in the max category, so they probably shouldn't think about that anyway. They are probably better suited in a sign and trade market (or the regular trade market). If the guys I listed left, they should have a lot of room to hit the tax threshold. Either way, they look like a team in purgatory . . . a team probably good enough to compete for a playoff spot but a team too good to tank.

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Obviously the Lakers have to make this move, you can't waste a minute of LeBron James with him turning 35 this coming season.  But does anyone else feel like AD is maybe the worst match for LeBron of any of the Top 15 or so players in the league?  It seems like there's a lot of overlap in their scoring and other skill sets.

I guess the good news is that the Lakers seem to need something that's fairly easy to find in the NBA- 3 point shooting guards. Brogdon seems like a perfect match to play with those two, if the money works and the Bucks don't keep him.

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As a Pels fan I am still torn on this deal.  I do think with the injuries in the Playoffs and Kyrie signing with Roc this was the best deal the Pels could have gotten.

I would love to see the Pels flip that #4 and a #1 for the #2 and draft Ja this year.  I think the team will be way to inexperienced bu to hey will be fun to watch grow together.  I doubt that happens though.

I do not see a great deal of value in the 2021 pick.  I think the Lakers will be back in the Playoffs that year and the pick will be mid round.  Let’s flip it now.

I didn’t see anything on the 2020 pick?

 

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2 MILLION, yes MILLION fans expected in downtown Toronto for the parade today. 

mamma mia.

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3 minutes ago, ragincajun said:

As a Pels fan I am still torn on this deal.  I do think with the injuries in the Playoffs and Kyrie signing with Roc this was the best deal the Pels could have gotten.

I would love to see the Pels flip that #4 and a #1 for the #2 and draft Ja this year.  I think the team will be way to inexperienced bu to hey will be fun to watch grow together.  I doubt that happens though.

I do not see a great deal of value in the 2021 pick.  I think the Lakers will be back in the Playoffs that year and the pick will be mid round.  Let’s flip it now.

I didn’t see anything on the 2020 pick?

 

that 2021 pick is actually reverse protected (according to the last thing that I heard, though details have been continually evolving).  If it is not 1-8, then it rolls over to the next year as an unprotected pick.  That seems advantageous for the Pels.

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Gotcha.  I have heard several things also.  I guess we will not know until the official deal is released to the public.  

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18 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Spotrac did not list Irving or Horford as cap holds, so that explains the difference in available cap space (they were counted as $0). Not sure why, but Spotrac has Shane Larkin as a cap hold that could be released while ShamSports does not. Not sure why that is. Spotrac also has the Celtics listed as having $450,000 and $1.35 million in roster exceptions available.

If Boston starts out with Hayward, Smart, Tatum, Baynes, Brown, Yabuselle, Williams, Ojeleye, and signs / rosters three first round picks, adding in the money from renouncing Larkin and the roster exceptions, that would get Boston to roughly $30.6 million to work with (in theory if the math is right).

Of course, that also means they don't have Kyrie, Horford, Morris, and Rozier. I am also not sure how the cap works if a team drafts a player and puts him in the G league or has him play overseas.

Again in theory, if the Celtics moved a couple of pieces or draft picks, they might approach getting up to having a max contract available. Personally, they haven't been able to attract a premium free agent and instead have given max deals to players that shouldn't have been in the max category, so they probably shouldn't think about that anyway. They are probably better suited in a sign and trade market (or the regular trade market). If the guys I listed left, they should have a lot of room to hit the tax threshold. Either way, they look like a team in purgatory . . . a team probably good enough to compete for a playoff spot but a team too good to tank.

If they renounced all their free agents, I come up with $27.8 million in cap space.  Here.

You're right that they could get more by moving draft picks.  Also, I believe if a first round draft pick signs/is already signed in another league such as in Europe, the cap hold for him is excluded.  I don't think it would work that way for the G-League, however.

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