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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Says Republicans are running "their little torture project". Agree?

Are Republicans intentionally running a "little torture project"?  

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2 minutes ago, Sheriff Bart said:

If you support Trump, you support this. He denigrated and dehumanized these people for two years on the campaign trail and his entire presidency.  "I'm going to build a wall and Mexico is going pay for it". That was his main message. He's doing exactly what he said he would do. What he was elected to do. Look in the mirror, don't curse at me. 

Just stop with this crap.

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45 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Are you saying AOC is as outrageous as Trump? 

I know this question was directed at Tim, but no I don't think AOC is as outrageous as Trump.  I can't imagine AOC mocking a disabled reporter the way Trump did, for example.  That's not to say that want AOC is doing is okay, just to emphasize how uniquely bad I think Trump is.

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13 minutes ago, Sheriff Bart said:

Just like ignorance, carelessness isn't an excuse. 

ETA As for Blutarsky, see my reply above. 

Not an excuse but also not the same moral responsibility. And not torture. Torture can’t be a result of carelessness, by definition it must be deliberate. 

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“I’m in favor of a policy that causes bad results though I was unaware of them.”- Bad.

”I’m in favor of a policy that causes bad results and in spite of that I’m still in favor of it.” Worse. 

“I’m in favor of a policy that causes bad results because I want those bad results to happen.” Worst, and on a whole different level than the first two. 

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7 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Not an excuse but also not the same moral responsibility. And not torture. Torture can’t be a result of carelessness, by definition it must be deliberate. 

Torture doesn't have to be waterboarding and ripping fingernails out.  Sexual abuse, no recreation, lights on 24/7 in undersized holding "areas" /cages. No hygiene products, refusal of medical treatment, taking children from their families. On, and on, and on.  All of these are deliberate. 

Edited by Sheriff Bart
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It can be argued that the cruelty is part of the point of the program.  It’s used as a deterrent. 

Do all republicans subscribe to this? No. 

Is “torture” (or extreme cruelty) arguably a part of the administrations approach towards limiting immigration?  I think it’s terrible that I can’t immediately dismiss such a claim out of hand.

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Torture.  the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

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12 minutes ago, adonis said:

It can be argued that the cruelty is part of the point of the program.  It’s used as a deterrent. 

Do all republicans subscribe to this? No

Is “torture” (or extreme cruelty) arguably a part of the administrations approach towards limiting immigration?  I think it’s terrible that I can’t immediately dismiss such a claim out of hand.

I agree with this.  However those that voted for Trump got exactly what they were promised. These poor people were painted as a boogie man or as Trump calls them, rapists, drug dealers and murderers. Trump promised to "save" America from these people.  Now if you regret your Trump support, good.  

As I posted in the Trump Years thread, prominent republicans that call him and his administration out are lambasted and marginalized by the rest of the party.  McCain, Mueller, Comey, Kerner, all have felt the wrath of the party they have served their entire lives. 

Edited by Sheriff Bart
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Is the question about the acts and if they are intentional?  Or is the question about what they are doing being labeled torture?

If it's ther former,  obviously what they are doing is intentional. It would be actually worse if it were by accident. 

Is it torture?  No. That's absurd hyperbole that gets in the way of real concern. It's disgusting,  severely lacking in empathy/ sympathy,  and completely ignores the history of this country and what it was built on. It's a lazy,  ill thought out approach that is doing real harm to innocent people in the name of deterrence yet it is not deterring people. 

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I'm far from a Donald trump fan, but AOC is ridiculous. We're all REALLY lucky she wasn't born 5 years earlier or we'd be staring an AOC vs Trump electoral cycle right in the face. 

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Voted absolutely no.  Torture is inflammatory and requires a level of intention that there is no evidence for.   She needs to calm down.  

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4 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

This seemed pretty surprising to me:  

https://twitter.com/theintercept/status/1144623365187080193

"If they want to do that, that’s fine… but they should not be using a humanitarian crisis as a bargaining chip to make sure they pursue their little torture project,”

I think everyone would agree a humanitarian crisis shouldn't be used as a "bargaining chip". But do you think the Republicans are intentionally running a "little torture project"?

Didnt take her long to become like all the other politicians. Thats too bad.

Quote

We didn’t even bother to negotiate.

Hmmmmmm.....Wonder who said that after the house passed the senate bill...

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ACO is the Donald Trump of the Democratic Party.  Even Nancy P can’t keep her under control.

Edited by Gopher State

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12 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

As a matter of logic, this statement is unsound.

Logic?

Ah yes...I remember it well.  Somewhere around the middle of 2015 it gasped it’s death rattle and here we are.

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1 hour ago, Gopher State said:

ACO is the Donald Trump of the Democratic Party.  Even Nancy P can’t keep her under control.

One of them is a 29 year old first term rep who sits on two committees (IIRC).  

The other is the President.

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If you want to quibble about the word torture, fine. I don't really care.

But this is Trump's stated policy and is 100% intentional.

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6 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

This seemed pretty surprising to me:  

https://twitter.com/theintercept/status/1144623365187080193

"If they want to do that, that’s fine… but they should not be using a humanitarian crisis as a bargaining chip to make sure they pursue their little torture project,”

I think everyone would agree a humanitarian crisis shouldn't be used as a "bargaining chip". But do you think the Republicans are intentionally running a "little torture project"?

I guess that depends what you mean. 

Are they running a project? Is it equivalent to torture? Should they know that? Do they continue despite constructive knowledge of that? 

If so, totally reasonable. Not sure I know enough to answer. 

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2 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

As a matter of logic, this statement is unsound.

There is the issue of the absurd belief that everyone who supports/voted for a candidate must support everything that candidate does and is even responsible for everything that candidate does.   

Then there is the issue which these type of generalizations are not suppose to be allowed on this forum.

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11 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

This seemed pretty surprising to me:  

https://twitter.com/theintercept/status/1144623365187080193

"If they want to do that, that’s fine… but they should not be using a humanitarian crisis as a bargaining chip to make sure they pursue their little torture project,”

I think everyone would agree a humanitarian crisis shouldn't be used as a "bargaining chip". But do you think the Republicans are intentionally running a "little torture project"?

I wouldn't use the word torture. OTOH people that were members of the administration and advisors (sessions and Kelly)  claimed the family separation policy was meant as a deterent.  The results of the Trump/GOP/consrvative supported policies were easily predictable. Why is it unfair to think the results were what they intended?.

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Wow. The Supreme Court is going to be ours (sane) for decades. Thank you, Democrats.

Edited by rockaction

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Didn't we argue both for child separation and that a crisis should never go to waste under the previous administration?

Crickets?

Thought so.

Edited by rockaction

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12 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Wow. The Supreme Court is going to be ours (sane) for decades. Thank you, Democrats.

Not necessarily.  There is no law that the Supreme Court has to stay at 9. 

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Just now, Mile High said:

Not necessarily.  There is no law that the Supreme Court has to stay at 9. 

Good luck with packing the Court. 

:lmao:

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14 hours ago, Thunderlips said:

 

I didn't like her much at first...

I think she's a legit spark that the Democrats need.   To that, I think there will be a point during this cycle where she will need to take a back burner.....but not right now and not on this issue. 

Interesting.  Curious to what turned you on to her.  Her talk of a ban on cow farts, air travel or the world ending in 12 years?  Single handedly running off Amazon from bringing tons of jobs to her district?  Absurd remarks like her opponents are operating concentration camps and torture projects?   No trying to take a run at all, just wondering how somebody hears more from this person and does a 180 into liking her. 

 

 

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Nobody 180s into liking this. The Kool-Aid was already drunk.

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I always vote Dem and was happy when AOC first came on the scene.  I do worry that she has turned into our version of Sarah Palin though. AOC like Trump lacks awareness and makes too many knee jerk statements.

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1 minute ago, Widbil83 said:

Interesting.  Curious to what turned you on to her.  Her talk of a ban on cow farts, air travel or the world ending in 12 years?  Single handedly running off Amazon from bringing tons of jobs to her district?  Absurd remarks like her opponents are operating concentration camps and torture projects?*  No trying to take a run at all, just wondering how somebody hears more from this person and does a 180 into liking her. 

 

 

 Every politician is going to mis-speak. Every politican is going to be on the wrong side of issues or sound like a jackass at times.  Going forward, they're all going to be under a microscope and dissected 24/7.  

She seems to have legit passion. I initially looked at her (my viewpoint as not her constituency who didn't pay much attention to her) as a candidate who probably threw her name in the ring; not expecting to win and then she did that.  I then thought her to be a one-termer; a "mistake" that will be corrected in the next election.  I don't think that anymore.  I  think she's on the cusp of being a legit force for years to come. 

To that, I like the way that she gets Conservative/Republican dander up.  She doesn't seem to back down from it.  She seems to embrace it and I think she'll be a capable fighter(particularly against the Right) of the Left/Progressive side of the Democratic Party for years to come.

 

* And I'm one who doesnt' think her "torture" rhetoric is absurd.  The way that these children are being treated is either incompetence (on the part of the Trump Administration) or deliberate......and there doesn't seem to be many who are speaking the "official message" of the Trump Administraion who are just flat out admitting its incompetence.  

 

 

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17 hours ago, timschochet said:

Just another example of how extremists  on both sides tend to believe that bad behavior on the other side is deliberate. It’s one of the great distinctions between the centrists and the extremists: we (the centrists) tend to believe that most bad behavior is not the result of intention but instead the result of unintended consequences of faulty idealism. 

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Now, 'never' might be a bit much when talking politics, but I definitely believe that much more is attributable to stupidity than malice.

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1 hour ago, Just Win Baby said:

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Now, 'never' might be a bit much when talking politics, but I definitely believe that much more is attributable to stupidity than malice.

That's fair.....

But in regards to politics, "attributing to malice"   allowed the Republican Party to flourish during the Obama Administration.

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2 hours ago, Summer Wheat said:

I always vote Dem and was happy when AOC first came on the scene.  I do worry that she has turned into our version of Sarah Palin though. AOC like Trump lacks awareness and makes too many knee jerk statements.

One difference (among many) is that Palin and Trump are intellectually uninterested; they don’t like to read. AOC does, which gives me hope. It’s just that right now her reading material seems limited to the political material typically available in the hipster coffeehouse adjacent to most any large college campus. 

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4 hours ago, rockaction said:

Didn't we argue both for child separation and that a crisis should never go to waste under the previous administration?

Crickets?

Thought so.

My understanding is that the Obama Administration was only for child separation in the case of violent felons, and that it was instituted regardless of situation when President Trump started his “zero tolerance” policy so that the two situations are not at all comparable. You can correct me if I’m wrong. I don’t understand your second point. 

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4 hours ago, rockaction said:

Wow. The Supreme Court is going to be ours (sane) for decades. Thank you, Democrats.

You believe that AOC’s comments  ensures a Republican majority? Interesting. Did you make the same assumptions about Michelle Bachman, Steve King, Louis Gohmert, etc when they said nutty things in the past? How about Maxine Waters? 

Believing that AOC is going to cause public opinion to change in favor of the Republicans is nuttier than any comment she has ever made. 

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2018: AOC in tears over treatment of people detained crossing the boarder.

Early 2019: There is no boarder crisis.

Mid 2019: Ok... now we have a boarder crisis... 

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17 hours ago, timschochet said:

Not an excuse but also not the same moral responsibility. And not torture. Torture can’t be a result of carelessness, by definition it must be deliberate. 

"Stochastic torture" seems closer to the mark.  You know it's going to happen and don't mind it when it does, but you didn't expressly order anyone to do it.

And, yes.  GWB and Obama deserve some of the blame here.  Once you build these things they take on a life of their own and are almost impossible to get rid of.

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1 minute ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

 

And, yes.  GWB and Obama deserve some of the blame here.  Once you build these things they take on a life of their own and are almost impossible to get rid of.

Look the public wants the nation to do something about the flow of people crossing our southern border without papers. Personally I’ve never seen that as a negative but my view is not a popular one. The problem with GWB and Obama was not their intentions or even their execution, it was that, short of real ugliness there is no way to resolve this “problem”. Trump recognizes that and has chosen the ugliness, but most of the public doesn’t want the ugliness. 

 

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25 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Look the public wants the nation to do something about the flow of people crossing our southern border without papers. Personally I’ve never seen that as a negative but my view is not a popular one. The problem with GWB and Obama was not their intentions or even their execution, it was that, short of real ugliness there is no way to resolve this “problem”. Trump recognizes that and has chosen the ugliness, but most of the public doesn’t want the ugliness. 

I mean the camp system.  Once you set them up they degrade.

Edited by Dinsy Ejotuz

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On 6/29/2019 at 7:04 PM, HellToupee said:

No.

Then you aren't paying attention to his own words and actions. He keeps changing people at the top to get "tougher". By that he means treat these people as poorly as possible to the point the UN is calling it out. That is the obvious goal. And hey if it takes a few dead kids oh well they would have just been in MS13 anyway so who cares right?

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On 6/29/2019 at 8:24 PM, John Blutarsky said:

Just stop with this crap.

When you  vote for someone you are responsible for what they do with the power you gave them. When you continue to support them despite reprehensible actions you now are an accomplice. 

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19 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

When you  vote for someone you are responsible for what they do with the power you gave them. When you continue to support them despite reprehensible actions you now are an accomplice. 

No, you really aren't.   If someone is pro-life and anti-guns then they basically can't vote.  Because with America's tribal politics you are picking one or the other, for example.  It doesn't mean you support the policy of the one you did not pick.

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4 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

No, you really aren't.   If someone is pro-life and anti-guns then they basically can't vote.  Because with America's tribal politics you are picking one or the other, for example.  It doesn't mean you support the policy of the one you did not pick.

Yes you really are. And prolife is more than anti-abortion. A lot more.

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17 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

Yes you really are. And prolife is more than anti-abortion. A lot more.

No, you really aren't.  If someone supports any candidate 100% then they are totally tribal or have serious issues.  

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1 minute ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

No, you really aren't.  If someone supports any candidate 100% then they are totally tribal or have serious issues.  

You are correct and he is wrong. 

Our two party system has worked because it encompasses so many different pluralistic ideas. What people like @NCCommish will never understand is that voting for “the lesser of two evils” is not a bug in the system, it’s a positive. 

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On 6/29/2019 at 5:22 PM, timschochet said:

The problem with almost all of these comments is the same as AOC- they assume that it’s all deliberate. I get that some people think this but it’s hard to prove and unless and until somebody proves it, I don’t accept it.

As for Trump supporters, @John BlutarskyIs absolutely right. If you’re going to charge them with being for torture, you’d better offer proof. 

Separately children from their mothers and putting them in cages is absolutely a form of psychological torture.  That's the whole point

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21 hours ago, Summer Wheat said:

I always vote Dem and was happy when AOC first came on the scene.  I do worry that she has turned into our version of Sarah Palin though. AOC like Trump lacks awareness and makes too many knee jerk statements.

Maybe her career as a commercial spokeswoman for DiGiorno will take off and she will go that route, instead of staying n politics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inOzIsxTsys

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