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Maurile Tremblay

Conway on Trump

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Saw this the other day but kept forgetting to post it here.

It should be read by everyone.

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The truths in Conway's article is more powerful than any nuclear weapon.  Yet still so many want to ignore seeing the blast.  

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On 10/11/2019 at 3:57 PM, Maurile Tremblay said:

This deserves its own thread.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/george-conway-trump-unfit-office/599128/

I think it's hard to argue with any of his main points.

He is so obviously awful that it defies reason that he has any single person supporting him who isn't a family member or business partner. That was very thorough and well said, but it won't matter. All those behaviors are in plain sight for all to see. Millions just don't care. 

Edited by Ilov80s
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56 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Millions just don't care. 

Its actually worse than that - millions actively want what Trump brings to the table.

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4 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Its actually worse than that - millions actively want what Trump brings to the table.

I am not sure if anyone is supporting Trump because he is mentally unstable, selfish, a conman, etc. I think they either look past that because they think he is accomplishing really great things for the country or they programmed themselves to think like Trump where any attack against him is bias, fake, etc. They think like Trump now. It's everybody else's fault but his and he isn't being treated fairly. Just my 2 cents. 

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7 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I am not sure if anyone is supporting Trump because he is mentally unstable, selfish, a conman, etc. I think they either look past that because they think he is accomplishing really great things for the country or they programmed themselves to think like Trump where any attack against him is bias, fake, etc. They think like Trump now. It's everybody else's fault but his and he isn't being treated fairly. Just my 2 cents. 

I think people want a bully.  Sad people.  But I think this is what they want.

 

Look at that rally in Minnesota (or any of his rallies) - those people love it.   They are not tolerating him - they are absolutely reveling in his behavior.

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8 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

I think people want a bully.  Sad people.  But I think this is what they want.

 

Look at that rally in Minnesota (or any of his rallies) - those people love it.   They are not tolerating him - they are absolutely reveling in his behavior.

Sure but being a bully or being brash or leaning into racism doesn’t mean someone is also mentally unwell. The people supporting him aren’t supporting him (imo) because he’s dumb and so narcissistic and unstable. They are supporting him because they have turned off reason when it comes to Trump. They are so dug with their belief he’s actually really smart and all of this is planned by Trump or that it’s all BS from the liberal media and deep state. They have essentially become Trump themselves. It’s total denial about what kind of person he is. That or they excuse because they argue he’s also accomplishing so much. That might be an ever worse stance. In the end, to admit Trump is wrong and horrible is to admit they were wrong and made a horrible series of choices. It goes deeper than most any other President because they didn’t just support him politically, they treated him like a super hero all while it was painfully obvious he was totally unfit for the President and was nothing more than a grifter and entertainer.

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On 10/12/2019 at 7:26 PM, McJose said:

Maurice 

Some people call him that.  

Because he speaks of the pompatus of love.

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5 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

Sure but being a bully or being brash or leaning into racism doesn’t mean someone is also mentally unwell. The people supporting him aren’t supporting him (imo) because he’s dumb and so narcissistic and unstable. They are supporting him because they have turned off reason when it comes to Trump. They are so dug with their belief he’s actually really smart and all of this is planned by Trump or that it’s all BS from the liberal media and deep state. They have essentially become Trump themselves. It’s total denial about what kind of person he is. That or they excuse because they argue he’s also accomplishing so much. That might be an ever worse stance. In the end, to admit Trump is wrong and horrible is to admit they were wrong and made a horrible series of choices. It goes deeper than most any other President because they didn’t just support him politically, they treated him like a super hero all while it was painfully obvious he was totally unfit for the President and was nothing more than a grifter and entertainer.

I know I'm in the minority on this and I don't want to turn this into a "Joe defends his Trump voting friends" thing. But I don't see it like this. For the majority of my friends who voted for Trump (and a great many voted for him), in my opinion they see him way more as the uncomfortable way to get what they want. Primarily, a conservative Supreme Court. This is far and away the prime answer I received when I'd ask "Why Trump?". Second would be economic policies they see as favorable to them with lower taxes and such. I don't think anyone I know who votes for Trump thinks he's smart. They see him more like a Tony Soprano guy that'll get done what they want. 

Now to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't all kinds of problems with thinking like that. I'm just saying in my experience, I don't see anyone seeing it like you do with the Trump voters thinking he's smart.

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3 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

They see him more like a Tony Soprano guy that'll get done what they want.

I'm so happy that there are people that willfully support a mafia Don presidency. 

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5 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I know I'm in the minority on this and I don't want to turn this into a "Joe defends his Trump voting friends" thing. But I don't see it like this. For the majority of my friends who voted for Trump (and a great many voted for him), in my opinion they see him way more as the uncomfortable way to get what they want. Primarily, a conservative Supreme Court. This is far and away the prime answer I received when I'd ask "Why Trump?". Second would be economic policies they see as favorable to them with lower taxes and such. I don't think anyone I know who votes for Trump thinks he's smart. They see him more like a Tony Soprano guy that'll get done what they want. 

Now to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't all kinds of problems with thinking like that. I'm just saying in my experience, I don't see anyone seeing it like you do with the Trump voters thinking he's smart.

Oh I know and I addressed that in the second half of the post.  They are even worse imo because they know how horrible he is. It’s one thing to be fooled into electing Tony Soprano for President, it’s another level of bad to knowingly put Tony Soprano in power. 

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31 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I know I'm in the minority on this and I don't want to turn this into a "Joe defends his Trump voting friends" thing. But I don't see it like this. For the majority of my friends who voted for Trump (and a great many voted for him), in my opinion they see him way more as the uncomfortable way to get what they want. Primarily, a conservative Supreme Court. This is far and away the prime answer I received when I'd ask "Why Trump?". Second would be economic policies they see as favorable to them with lower taxes and such. I don't think anyone I know who votes for Trump thinks he's smart. They see him more like a Tony Soprano guy that'll get done what they want. 

Now to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't all kinds of problems with thinking like that. I'm just saying in my experience, I don't see anyone seeing it like you do with the Trump voters thinking he's smart.

This is why I keep harping on the 2-party system.  My biggest fear out of this is we spiral in to both sides getting further and further away from normalcy and electing fringe, unqualified candidates.

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45 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I know I'm in the minority on this and I don't want to turn this into a "Joe defends his Trump voting friends" thing. But I don't see it like this. For the majority of my friends who voted for Trump (and a great many voted for him), in my opinion they see him way more as the uncomfortable way to get what they want. Primarily, a conservative Supreme Court. This is far and away the prime answer I received when I'd ask "Why Trump?"

This is exactly the answer I got from my older brother...who is a very smart, rational person typically.   He has this irrational (IMO) fear that a more liberal court will lead a direct assault on Christians.  

Direct quote "Some day it will be considered hate-speech to hold up a sign on the street corner with a Bible verse on it".

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10 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

This is why I keep harping on the 2-party system.  My biggest fear out of this is we spiral in to both sides getting further and further away from normalcy and electing fringe, unqualified candidates.

I think fringe, unqualified candidates are also a problem in multi-party systems with proportional representation. I'm not as knowledgeable about such systems as I'd like to be, but when Adolf Hitler came to power in Germany, he did so in a system where the Nazis were unable to muster anything like a majority. They got a foothold in the parliament and the cabinet only because fringe third parties were allowed a seat at the table.

And then after he came to power, he transformed Germany into a one-party state, which was disastrous.

So a two-party system, like democracy itself, might be the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried.

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3 minutes ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

This is exactly the answer I got from my older brother...who is a very smart, rational person typically.   He has this irrational (IMO) fear that a more liberal court will lead a direct assault on Christians.  

Direct quote "Some day it will be considered hate-speech to hold up a sign on the street corner with a Bible verse on it".

Yes. This exactly the vibe I'm talking about. I don't know if your brother voted for Trump, but this kind of world view among Trump voters is very common in my experience. They're nothing like the picture that's painted of the "other side" as masochistic racist idiots who enjoy inflicting pain on others. 

Given that, I'm not sure where this all goes. 

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59 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I know I'm in the minority on this and I don't want to turn this into a "Joe defends his Trump voting friends" thing. But I don't see it like this. For the majority of my friends who voted for Trump (and a great many voted for him), in my opinion they see him way more as the uncomfortable way to get what they want. Primarily, a conservative Supreme Court. This is far and away the prime answer I received when I'd ask "Why Trump?". Second would be economic policies they see as favorable to them with lower taxes and such. I don't think anyone I know who votes for Trump thinks he's smart. They see him more like a Tony Soprano guy that'll get done what they want. 

Now to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't all kinds of problems with thinking like that. I'm just saying in my experience, I don't see anyone seeing it like you do with the Trump voters thinking he's smart.

Frankly, this was the primary argument I made to people as to why they should vote for Hillary Clinton last cycle.  And the primary reason I voted for her.

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3 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Yes. This exactly the vibe I'm talking about. I don't know if your brother voted for Trump, but this kind of world view among Trump voters is very common in my experience. They're nothing like the picture that's painted of the "other side" as masochistic racist idiots who enjoy inflicting pain on others. 

Given that, I'm not sure where this all goes. 

However I will say that I also have friends that are Trump supporters that pretty much buy into everything the guys says or does without question.  They will defend his actions to the bitter end and refuse to acknowledge anything negative.  

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Just now, Henry Ford said:

Frankly, this was the primary argument I made to people as to why they should vote for Hillary Clinton last cycle.  And the primary reason I voted for her.

Agreed. I can definitely see that working the same with Clinton. 

And truthfully, I get it. At some point, it becomes an "end justifies the means" type question for people. And I can see how they'd wrestle with it. 

I think my friends absolutely wrestle with it. 

 

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10 minutes ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

However I will say that I also have friends that are Trump supporters that pretty much buy into everything the guys says or does without question.  They will defend his actions to the bitter end and refuse to acknowledge anything negative.  

No doubt. But that's where I am different I think. Almost every Trump voter I know (and I know a lot) are way more like your brother and not like this. 

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11 minutes ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

However I will say that I also have friends that are Trump supporters that pretty much buy into everything the guys says or does without question.  They will defend his actions to the bitter end and refuse to acknowledge anything negative.  

This. I know both as well, smart good people who are just die in the wool conservatives and voted for Trump based solely on this and others who just like to “own libs” and love the way Trump does it. As always it’s a mixture of things just like everything else.   

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10 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I think fringe, unqualified candidates are also a problem in multi-party systems with proportional representation. I'm not as knowledgeable about such systems as I'd like to be, but when Adolf Hitler came to power in Germany, he did so in a system where the Nazis were unable to muster anything like a majority. They got a foothold in the parliament and the cabinet only because fringe third parties were allowed a seat at the table.

And then after he came to power, he transformed Germany into a one-party state, which was disastrous.

So a two-party system, like democracy itself, might be the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried.

I’m sure I’m wrong but I would think if we had more choices that people actually thought would win we would see more people vote FOR a candidate and not for their party or worse AGAINST another candidate/party.  It felt like in 2016 that most people were in the latter camp.  

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15 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

I think people want a bully.  Sad people.  But I think this is what they want.

 

Look at that rally in Minnesota (or any of his rallies) - those people love it.   They are not tolerating him - they are absolutely reveling in his behavior.

The even weirder part, though, is that Trump isn't even much of a bully.  He kowtows immediately to actual bullies (Putin, et al). 

Trump reads to me like that schoolyard bully who likes to run his mouth, but as soon as someone punches him in the jaw he runs home to mommy and you never heard a peep out of him again.  Some countries need the US so badly that they'll let him run his mouth and put up with it, but some don't. 

What scares me even more, though, is that the guy is so into fringe conspiracy theories that he doesn't realize that certain other countries are punching him in the mouth.  He's the presidential equivalent of being "out on his feet", in boxing parlance.

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4 minutes ago, Steve Tasker said:

The even weirder part, though, is that Trump isn't even much of a bully.  He kowtows immediately to actual bullies (Putin, et al). 

Trump reads to me like that schoolyard bully who likes to run his mouth, but as soon as someone punches him in the jaw he runs home to mommy and you never heard a peep out of him again.  Some countries need the US so badly that they'll let him run his mouth and put up with it, but some don't. 

What scares me even more, though, is that the guy is so into fringe conspiracy theories that he doesn't realize that certain other countries are punching him in the mouth.  He's the presidential equivalent of being "out on his feet", in boxing parlance.

Buddy Hinton

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30 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

No doubt. But that's where I am different I think. Almost every Trump voter I know (and I know a lot) are way more like your brother and not like this. 

Do you make a distinction between Trump supporter and Trump voter?

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13 minutes ago, Steve Tasker said:

The even weirder part, though, is that Trump isn't even much of a bully.  He kowtows immediately to actual bullies (Putin, et al). 

Trump reads to me like that schoolyard bully who likes to run his mouth, but as soon as someone punches him in the jaw he runs home to mommy and you never heard a peep out of him again.  Some countries need the US so badly that they'll let him run his mouth and put up with it, but some don't. 

What scares me even more, though, is that the guy is so into fringe conspiracy theories that he doesn't realize that certain other countries are punching him in the mouth.  He's the presidential equivalent of being "out on his feet", in boxing parlance.

I can guarantee you that Trump has never been in a fist-fight in his entire life.

Not that that really means anything but as it has been pointed out here multiple times...he's the real-life version of Francis from "Pee-Wee's Big Adventure".

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Just now, OrtonToOlsen said:

I can guarantee you that Trump has never been in a fist-fight in his entire life.

Not that that really means anything but as it has been pointed out here multiple times...he's the real-life version of Francis from "Pee-Wee's Big Adventure".

I'd be surprised if he's avoided a fistfight.

On the other hand, if he only picked fights he knew he could win, with lots of buddies around and the opponent was always much smaller, that wouldn't surprise me in the least.

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1 minute ago, adonis said:

I'd be surprised if he's avoided a fistfight.

On the other hand, if he only picked fights he knew he could win, with lots of buddies around and the opponent was always much smaller, that wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Unless his bone spurs were flaring up.

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1 minute ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

I can guarantee you that Trump has never been in a fist-fight in his entire life.

A documentary I saw about him suggested that he tended to get into fights in grade school, which was part of why he was sent to military school.

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2 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

A documentary I saw about him suggested that he tended to get into fights in grade school, which was part of why he was sent to military school.

I sit corrected.  I also seem to remember he bragged about punching his piano teacher or some such nonsense.

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2 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

A documentary I saw about him suggested that he tended to get into fights in grade school, which was part of why he was sent to military school.

I also saw a documentary where he said he could have been a professional baseball or basketball player.  He also said he knows more then Generals, he also said....  well you get my point.  

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1 minute ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

I sit corrected.  I also seem to remember he bragged about punching his piano teacher or some such nonsense.

I see him as a teenager as Biff Tannin from Back to the Future. 

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26 minutes ago, adonis said:

Do you make a distinction between Trump supporter and Trump voter?

ABSOLUTELY

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15 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I think fringe, unqualified candidates are also a problem in multi-party systems with proportional representation. I'm not as knowledgeable about such systems as I'd like to be, but when Adolf Hitler came to power in Germany, he did so in a system where the Nazis were unable to muster anything like a majority. They got a foothold in the parliament and the cabinet only because fringe third parties were allowed a seat at the table.

And then after he came to power, he transformed Germany into a one-party state, which was disastrous.

So a two-party system, like democracy itself, might be the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried.

So, because political system x (which has since been revised) didn't stop Adolf Hitler, political system y, which didn't stop Trump from being elected and likely commit serious crimes for personal enrichment and/or the benefit of other countries (still ongoing), is much better.

That's not your most impressive piece of analysis

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13 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

ABSOLUTELY

Would you care to define the difference?

Edited by msommer

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4 hours ago, msommer said:

Would you care to define the difference?

I don't speak for Joe but it seems obvious to me that's there's plenty (read: Millions) of people who voted for him because of his party affiliation and not because they support him.  As amazing as it may be to me or you there's still plenty of those same people who will vote for him again even if they find him to be reprehensible.

And I'm not denying that there's also millions who love him and revel in whatever it is they think he brings to the table.

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21 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I know I'm in the minority on this and I don't want to turn this into a "Joe defends his Trump voting friends" thing. But I don't see it like this. For the majority of my friends who voted for Trump (and a great many voted for him), in my opinion they see him way more as the uncomfortable way to get what they want. Primarily, a conservative Supreme Court. This is far and away the prime answer I received when I'd ask "Why Trump?". Second would be economic policies they see as favorable to them with lower taxes and such. I don't think anyone I know who votes for Trump thinks he's smart. They see him more like a Tony Soprano guy that'll get done what they want. 

Now to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't all kinds of problems with thinking like that. I'm just saying in my experience, I don't see anyone seeing it like you do with the Trump voters thinking he's smart.

I think that is fine reasoning and all for supporting him once he won the nomination.  Prior to that...there were more options.  And now, to still support him despite all he has said and done because he gave them those things they wanted...its hard to justify IMO.  The ends justify the means seems really bad optics given what all we know of the man now.

My step dad talks about how he has been good for his retirement funds...but also that he does not want to support him now.

The other problem...fear.  Fear of the "socialists".  Simply put, a lot of the GOP/Trump propaganda about the progressives and basically labeling everyone socialists is working.  They fear what healthcare will cost in taxes (forgetting what its costing them now out of pocket), what changes will come to taxes...and the debt (again, forgetting what has been added to it under Trump).

 

Edited by sho nuff

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5 hours ago, msommer said:

Would you care to define the difference?

Sure. And to be clear, I'm saying I believe this is how folks are thinking. Not that they're right.

With that said, I know lots of people who saw Trump as simply the less worse of two bad options in 2016.

As I've said, by far the reason I heard when asking people "Why Trump?", was for the "future" and Supreme Court appointments. 

Many others saw it as a tossup and voted strictly party.

I think lots of other people don't even consider the question much and voted strictly party.

One can argue semantics and say every person who votes for a candidate supports them but them but that's not being fair to the word in my opinion. So I make a distinction between voters and supporters. 

For many of those people I call Trump "voters" but not "supporters", I feel like they are in play to possibly vote for a Democrat in 2020. 

 

 

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Interestingly, I saw this play out personally years ago but in the other direction.

My father had been a lifelong Republican voter. But cared very little for politics and I don't think put a ton of thought into it. 

He didn't vote for President Clinton in his first election but quickly became a fan. As a business man, "It's the Economy Stupid" resonated loud and clear. For Clinton's second election, he was all in. 

He was one of those people I'd have called a Republican voter but not necessarily a supporter. A guy like Bill Clinton wasn't a huge move across the spectrum for him.

 

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21 hours ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

This is exactly the answer I got from my older brother...who is a very smart, rational person typically.   He has this irrational (IMO) fear that a more liberal court will lead a direct assault on Christians.  

Direct quote "Some day it will be considered hate-speech to hold up a sign on the street corner with a Bible verse on it".

I’m sure making a deal with the devil will do wonders for Christianity 

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