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Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better

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12 minutes ago, That one guy said:

Present your thought/argument/fact/opinion, reply to others in kind, move on.  

Exactly. 

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Just throwing out my two cents:

This place is a lot more enjoyable if you use at as a place to learn rather than as a place to win an argument. I don't know how much it would change behavior, but I wonder if we could drive the point home by putting something in big bold letters next to the "Submit Reply" button such as: "Winning" an argument on the internet gets you exactly nothing of any real value.

In addition to this, for many years I used the ignore feature sparingly. Recently I've gone an ignoring spree, it's made this place a lot more enjoyable. I like the idea someone else proposed of allowing mods to force users to ignore each other.

 

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I won't quote Opie's post. But there is a value in this forum that some people fail to see. We've heard from quite a few people that don't post very often. We all come here for information and explanation on political topics. That information is disseminated from multiple different media outlets and presented in these threads. We could all find that information on our own. But, what we can't do, is ask questions we have about that information if we read it on CNN.com  or FoxNews.com. I'm guilty of calling this place an echo chamber. Which it is simply because most people echo the same viewpoint. It doesn't always mean that it's the wrong viewpoint. But, I try to target my question on a subject to a person I trust, who will approach it from an honest stance. I've butted heads with lots of posters here over one subject, but asked them to help me understand other subjects better. I'm not sure where I would be able to do that if this sub forum was shut down and it's why I asked @Joe Bryant to ponder whether the world is better with it. 

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2 minutes ago, KCitons said:

I won't quote Opie's post. But there is a value in this forum that some people fail to see. We've heard from quite a few people that don't post very often. We all come here for information and explanation on political topics. That information is disseminated from multiple different media outlets and presented in these threads. We could all find that information on our own. But, what we can't do, is ask questions we have about that information if we read it on CNN.com  or FoxNews.com. I'm guilty of calling this place an echo chamber. Which it is simply because most people echo the same viewpoint. It doesn't always mean that it's the wrong viewpoint. But, I try to target my question on a subject to a person I trust, who will approach it from an honest stance. I've butted heads with lots of posters here over one subject, but asked them to help me understand other subjects better. I'm not sure where I would be able to do that if this sub forum was shut down and it's why I asked @Joe Bryant to ponder whether the world is better with it. 

This would be the ideal.  100%

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2 hours ago, cobalt_27 said:

Hmm.  I think it’s fair to say the messengers are *the* problem because they are the ones making decisions about which messages to communicate and how to communicate them.  You even raised concerns about hostility toward folks who defend Trump in even just the slightest way.  Leaving aside the merits of that position, that is a criticism of the messengers—those hostile toward Trump defenders—not the message.

I can understand your frustration with those messengers who are hostile to the values you support.  That’s a perfectly normal reaction, I think.  Look, Trump is a bigot.  He’s dumb as a rock.  He doesn’t just lie—his whole *brand* has been built around deception and false promises and lies since forever.  And of course he has abused his power and engaged in criminal activity to protect this brand.  These are well-established facts, corroborated and verified time and time again.  There are no alternative facts here.  That folks choose to look past all of this (and in many cases embrace it) is disturbing.  

And, it’s why I support Joe shutting down this whole thing because the messengers are so willfully disconnected from reality and/or defective in their value system that they have foreclosed on any possibility of civility and thoughtful discussion.  The messengers are *the* problem because they are peddling disinformation every day that has caused significant harm.

Just my .02.

Disconnected from reality

Defective in their value system. 

Yeah.  This board is doomed

Edited by supermike80
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1 hour ago, Ghost Rider said:

The mocking of those who aren't really on either "side" has gotten a little out of hand as well. 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/773102-tulsi-gabbard-2020/?do=findComment&comment=22257912

The above post is a good example, and it's one I see pretty often now, where those who voted for Gary Johnson in 2016 are basically told that they are full of ####.  The implication is always that those who say they voted for Johnson really voted for Trump, but are now embarrassed to say it.  It can make those people not want to talk about politics because they are basically going to be called liars by someone if they happen to mention that they were a Johnson voter in '16.  And that kind of thing is kind of symbolic of the attitude in PSF, which far too often is basically "I am going to mock and/or denigrate those who aren't in lock step with what I believe and do." 

I guess I don't understand this...I actually voted for Gary Johnson and this doesn't bother me because I know there are people out there saying they did that really didn't for obvious reasons.  When I see this I know they aren't talking about me, so I don't sweat it :mellow: 

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22 hours ago, That one guy said:

I think something many people should do is read and catch up on an entire thread prior to replying.  I think a major contributor to the dog pile effect is a knee-jerk “oh no, this cannot stand” reaction to a post/poster.  There’s a really good chance that someone has already responded to whatever issue you might have, just keep reading and find out before posting

This is me, admittedly. I'm doing it right now even. I don't have the time to read dozens of pages of a thread usually. I will see one I'm interested in and start commenting as I go, often times hours or days later. I see your point.

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22 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

Primarily the viewpoint.  "Attacking mob mentality" is the big concern I have in the following sentence.

I certainly agree that lots of people respond the same way to the same post - that's generally a function of everyone reading the thread and coming to a post and responding to it.  No one is breaking out the pitchforks and torches, it's usually each individual responding as he or she feels is appropriate (whether it is or not.)  And I certainly acknowledge that can feel like a mob attack, but it's not some concerted effort by a group.  It's the same thing that happened with Bender's post in this thread - several people responded the same way, over time, believing he was attacking someone.  Even after it was already sorted out that he was kidding.  Because people read a thread and sort of mini-"Hipple" it.  

I don't think a group was dogpiling on Bender.  And I don't think he thinks that either.

Also a good point.

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10 minutes ago, The Commish said:

I guess I don't understand this...I actually voted for Gary Johnson and this doesn't bother me because I know there are people out there saying they did that really didn't for obvious reasons.  When I see this I know they aren't talking about me, so I don't sweat it :mellow: 

Of course it does not bother you, they are not talking to you, you are more on the anti-Trump side.  This place is death by a thousand cuts.  When you make posts which goes against the lynch Trump mentality you have your honesty questioned, your sincerity questioned, your intelligence questioned, your value system questioned.   Those types of responses do not facilitate positive discourse.  The onus should not be on the person receiving such an onslaught from the majority.  The onus should be majority to back off some and maybe even police their own.  You will dismiss this as one-sided, but sorry, you are wrong.  This forum collectively displays zero empathy towards dissent and is in fact outwardly hostile.  To ignore that and to dismiss that will be the demise of the PSF.  

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21 minutes ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

He’s correct.

I am glad to see you guys really believe you are juries and judges of people's value system and know you are so morally superior.   That is not a problem.  :unsure:

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6 minutes ago, cap'n grunge said:

Also a good point.

HF point is a partially a good point.  People do break out the pitch folks when they consistently call people trolls and sometimes even suggest they should be banned.  

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2 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

I am glad to see you guys really believe you are juries and judges of people's value system and know you are so morally superior.   That is not a problem.  :unsure:

You do know that juries are made up of regular people, right?

And yes, I do judge people’s value systems.  Everyone does.

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I have a question for everyone, both sides?

Is it more important to be right (perceived or otherwise) or to have this sub forum?

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I’ve been reading the other threads as well as this one and observing the posting behavior. 

I believe what Joe wants is an impossibility.  Collectively we are unable to avoid the traps inherent in these discussions. Sometimes we’re unexcellent on purpose. Other times we are unexcellent without realizing it ourselves. This thread is somewhat ironic because we’ve even done it even here.

The question for Joe is if this flawed forum is better than shutting it down and then heavily moderating the FFA to not allow political talk.  I mentioned before that I think the latter would be an ever greater mistake.  There is no answer that will result in what he wants this message board to be.

 

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8 minutes ago, KCitons said:

I have a question for everyone, both sides?

Is it more important to be right (perceived or otherwise) or to have this sub forum?

It’s more important to get in the last word and a parting shot below the belt

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2 minutes ago, BassNBrew said:

It’s more important to get in the last word and a parting shot below the belt

Well that's a dumb answer.

 

Have a great weekend everyone! ;)

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10 minutes ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

You do know that juries are made up of regular people, right?

And yes, I do judge people’s value systems.  Everyone does.

Sorry you feel that way.  Calling a person's value system defective is a pretty crappy.

This is what I really never understood about the left.  The left bends over backwards to be sensitive to minorities (Hispanics, blacks, gays, women) and shows an unbelievable amount of empathy for no matter how in the wrong they might be..  But when it comes to conservatives, there is no sensitivity or empathy for.  Just bend over and like it. 

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15 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Of course it does not bother you, they are not talking to you, you are more on the anti-Trump side.  This place is death by a thousand cuts.  When you make posts which goes against the lynch Trump mentality you have your honesty questioned, your sincerity questioned, your intelligence questioned, your value system questioned.   Those types of responses do not facilitate positive discourse.  The onus should not be on the person receiving such an onslaught from the majority.  The onus should be majority to back off some and maybe even police their own.  You will dismiss this as one-sided, but sorry, you are wrong.  This forum collectively displays zero empathy towards dissent and is in fact outwardly hostile.  To ignore that and to dismiss that will be the demise of the PSF.  

It doesn't bother me because I am self aware enough to understand they aren't talking about me :shrug:  I don't automatically assume that everyone is out to get me and I don't take offense to lazy generalizations.  Those sorts of things come from dishonest sources and I understand that.  I can't fathom why anyone would put any sort of value in posts that are formed that way.

I lived through all the insults thrown my way when I said it was a bad idea to go into Iraq and that America didn't have the stomach to do it the right way.  That didn't bother me either.  I'm comfortable in my own skin and don't ask of others things I am not willing to do for them.  And I love how you want to control the narrative and say what I'm going to do.  Sorry to disappoint...I understand that we are all in the same boat and have the same responsibility to be better.  We take care of our own actions and it fixes itself.

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Seriously though, I think this board being shut down is inevitable when you consider what 2020 will be like. We recognize the problems and some fixes have been mentioned that will help but I just don't think it'll be good enough. Unfortunately.

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5 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

HF point is a partially a good point.  People do break out the pitch folks when they consistently call people trolls and sometimes even suggest they should be banned.  

Speaking only for myself I would never suggest banning anyone (at least that's how I feel now, hopefully I never have in the past). Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

At the same time there seems to be a victim mentality that some posters have adopted. If you're going to post provocative things ( not you specifically) that's ok, but be prepared to be challenged to back them up with facts. Instead there are often times complaints of bullying and piling on. This is why some posters are viewed as trolls.

Bottom line, just my opinion of course, be prepared to back up what is posted and don't whine if you (again not specific to you) can't and the majority of posters disagree with you.

We can all work in being more aware of our posting behavior in trying to be less personal and combative. At the same time I think an even bigger issue is the thickness of skin of some. The report button is pretty silly for a message board frequented by middle age adults. So is the ignore function.

Post away, try be more respectful, be prepared to defend your point if challenged, don't take everything so seriously, and be thankful for a community where we can discuss this fascinating history that is developing before our eyes.

Have a great Saturday everyone.

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3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Sorry you feel that way.  Calling a person's value system defective is a pretty crappy.

This is what I really never understood about the left.  The left bends over backwards to be sensitive to minorities (Hispanics, blacks, gays, women) and shows an unbelievable amount of empathy for no matter how in the wrong they might be..  But when it comes to conservatives, there is no sensitivity or empathy for.  Just bend over and like it. 

Interesting take, good sir.  Have a much joyous Saturday.

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4 minutes ago, jamny said:

Seriously though, I think this board being shut down is inevitable when you consider what 2020 will be like. We recognize the problems and some fixes have been mentioned that will help but I just don't think it'll be good enough. Unfortunately.

You are probably correct.  I do not look forward to this next election.  It will probably be the most combative display of hatred not seen since the civil war.  I am not sure how we avoid it.  't even know if a successful impeachment and conviction of Trump would help or just pour more gas on it. 

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10 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Sorry you feel that way.  Calling a person's value system defective is a pretty crappy.

This is what I really never understood about the left.  The left bends over backwards to be sensitive to minorities (Hispanics, blacks, gays, women) and shows an unbelievable amount of empathy for no matter how in the wrong they might be..  But when it comes to conservatives, there is no sensitivity or empathy for.  Just bend over and like it. 

Well, now I am curious, exactly how wrong are Hispanics, blacks, gays, and women? 

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18 minutes ago, BassNBrew said:

It’s more important to get in the last word and a parting shot below the belt

I think we've identified the problem. 

My point was that stating your opinion is different from being right. The two are not mutually exclusive. It's when we move towards the need to be seen as the one and only correct opinion that things spiral into the personal attacks. 

I am of the belief that most things political are similar to an iceberg. We are only seeing 10% of reality. What lies underneath could be good or bad. But, in reality, we don't know for certain one way or the other.

I guess that makes us all passengers of the Titanic. Joe is just rearranging the deck chairs while the band continues to play. 

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3 minutes ago, huthut said:

Well, now I am curious, exactly how wrong are Hispanics, blacks, gays, and women? 

For instance, when BLM were promoting anti-police rhetoric and cops were getting gunned down, there was a segment from the left including Obama who expressed understanding of their frustration with the police.  Or when Islamic terrorist plan attacks, there is discussion about how terrible we have been in the middle east.   

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22 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Understood. That's a big part of this time for me. 

I asked people repeatedly to report lies they see.

I asked:

If you see something you think is wrong, please post what you think is accurate. If you can provide a source or link for why you think what you think, that's even better.

If you see someone post something you think is an intentional lie, please report it and then definitely in the report include the link to show where it's obviously a lie and not just a difference of opinion.

The first report I get today is someone reporting this post:

The message the person attached to the report was: "Another post with no facts behind it.  This account is a troll.  I know you don’t care, but Joe asked us to report this type of post.  This is why the PSF will be killed off."

I don't know who Brennan and Clapper are. I"m assuming the poster thinks they're in trouble. 

But when us allowing a post like "It means Brennan and Clapper are crapping their pants and Misfud needs witness protection as his life may be in danger." is somehow subjugating the truth or limiting someone's ability to disagree, I'm pretty much at the end of the line. 

 

Jumping in again in the middle of a thread and commenting. It absolutely should not be the responsibility of a moderator to police "facts" on a message board IMO. That report button should only be used for the most egregious posts which have developed into over the top personal attacks. Stuff like threatening people for example. Or for bots posting spam.

It sounds like the report function is highly abused and has led to a lot of stress for you to the point of wanting to burn it all down.

C'mon people. Stop abusing the report feature. Police your own behavior. Leave Joe and the crew alone. You are not in elementary school and you do not need to cry to teacher over every little perceived slight. This might, just might, have some effect in keeping this board alive.

Edited by cap'n grunge
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19 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

For instance, when BLM were promoting anti-police rhetoric and cops were getting gunned down, there was a segment from the left including Obama who expressed understanding of their frustration with the police.  Or when Islamic terrorist plan attacks, there is discussion about how terrible we have been in the middle east.   

I guess we are going to disagree there, since I feel like BLM was black people protesting that they are getting gunned down by the police in situations where white people are not, and that there have always been nuts gunning down police independent of BLM. I feel like the people saying we deserve terrorist attacks are more fringe leftists or isolationist libertarians, making it almost functionally apolitical since they don't tend to vote D or R, and not really a part of the hispanic/black/gay/woman coalition.

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41 minutes ago, The Commish said:

stop

It was a crude comment that he made, no? I thought it was inappropriate and I was commenting on that. I guess I was wrong. 

In any event, I will delete it and apologize for anyone I may have offended.

Edited by squistion

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I’m not sure what the context of the deleted comment was; it was gone before I had the chance to read it. But I don’t care about that. What I do care about is the sudden quick reaction to it- “don’t” and stop” came right away- whatever it was, it was obviously offensive and nobody wants to see that anymore. 

This gives me a lot of hope. I think it’s silly to think that we can’t change around here. Of course we can change. We can follow the rules and ignore anyone who doesn’t, or even positively ask them to stop. And we don’t have to complain about it.  Or anyone. Of course we can change. 

I hope @Joe Bryant read how quickly that response was. 

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46 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

For instance, when BLM were promoting anti-police rhetoric and cops were getting gunned down, there was a segment from the left including Obama who expressed understanding of their frustration with the police.  Or when Islamic terrorist plan attacks, there is discussion about how terrible we have been in the middle east.   

Isn't this the empathy you're looking for?  Sorry, I am confused as to your point I guess.  Is it wrong to say, "yeah, I understand where they are coming from, but this isn't how to accomplish the goal"?  That's been the prevelant opinion of those situations here at FBG....I can't speak to "segments from the left including Obama"...that's so vague I don't even know where to begin in the context of 

1 hour ago, jon_mx said:

The left bends over backwards to be sensitive to minorities (Hispanics, blacks, gays, women) and shows an unbelievable amount of empathy for no matter how in the wrong they might be.

which was what was being discussed correct?  What is "wrong" with understanding where they are coming from?

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5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I’m not sure what the context of the deleted comment was; it was gone before I had the chance to read it. But I don’t care about that. What I do care about is the sudden quick reaction to it- “don’t” and stop” came right away- whatever it was, it was obviously offensive and nobody wants to see that anymore. 

This gives me a lot of hope. I think it’s silly to think that we can’t change around here. Of course we can change. We can follow the rules and ignore anyone who doesn’t, or even positively ask them to stop. And we don’t have to complain about it.  Or anyone. Of course we can change. 

I hope @Joe Bryant read how quickly that response was. 

offensive? no...childish and pointless absolutely and exactly the passive aggressive crap that happens here to escalate things unnecessarily.  Like it or not, it's crap like that that the "sides" pay attention to in lieu of meaningful content.

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

offensive? no...childish and pointless absolutely and exactly the passive aggressive crap that happens here to escalate things unnecessarily.  Like it or not, it's crap like that that the "sides" pay attention to in lieu of meaningful content.

Well in any case I was pleased by the quick reaction. 

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1 hour ago, jon_mx said:

HF point is a partially a good point.  People do break out the pitch folks when they consistently call people trolls and sometimes even suggest they should be banned.  

If you walk up to a bar full of people and stand in the doorway and yell at them that their bar is a cesspool, many people will each individually throw things at you. That doesn’t make them a pitchfork wielding mob. 

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57 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

For instance, when BLM were promoting anti-police rhetoric and cops were getting gunned down, there was a segment from the left including Obama who expressed understanding of their frustration with the police.  Or when Islamic terrorist plan attacks, there is discussion about how terrible we have been in the middle east.   

Is it possible that both sides make a point in these situations? There is cause and effect. Police brutality and racism has been a real thing. We have done terrible things in the middle East. Acknowledging those things is not the same as condoning the reactive behavior such as violence against police or terrorism. It's just painting the whole picture and putting things in context. Not sure what is wrong with that.

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7 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Isn't this the empathy you're looking for?  Sorry, I am confused as to your point I guess.  Is it wrong to say, "yeah, I understand where they are coming from, but this isn't how to accomplish the goal"?  That's been the prevelant opinion of those situations here at FBG....I can't speak to "segments from the left including Obama"...that's so vague I don't even know where to begin in the context of 

which was what was being discussed correct?  What is "wrong" with understanding where they are coming from?

I am not saying it is wrong.  It is good to understand and discuss why.  My point was why does the left display some level of empathy towards cop killers and terrorists but can't find it to do so with conservatives.   The level of hatred is what puzzles me. 

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2 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

I am not saying it is wrong.  It is good to understand and discuss why.  My point was why does the left display some level of empathy towards cop killers and terrorists but can't find it to do so with conservatives.   The level of hatred is what puzzles me. 

The left displays some level of empathy towards cop killers? Not that I have seen.

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5 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

 It is good to understand and discuss why.  My point was why does the left display some level of empathy towards cop killers and terrorists but can't find it to do so with conservatives.  

Huh?

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

I am not saying it is wrong.  It is good to understand and discuss why.  My point was why does the left display some level of empathy towards cop killers and terrorists but can't find it to do so with conservatives.   The level of hatred is what puzzles me. 

Quite frankly, Trump is to blame. His over the top fear and hate mongering, attack of the truth and facts, attack of the media who try hold him accountable, and just overall narcissist behavior is so far out of bounds it's unconscionable. When someone supports him it's hard to take them seriously. It just doesn't make sense.

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Link

Question for the arbiters of what is excellent. Is the linked thread acceptable or not. Trying to calibrate here in this new age.

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13 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

If you walk up to a bar full of people and stand in the doorway and yell at them that their bar is a cesspool, many people will each individually throw things at you. That doesn’t make them a pitchfork wielding mob. 

The order is reversed.  They throw stuff first

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9 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

I am not saying it is wrong.  It is good to understand and discuss why.  My point was why does the left display some level of empathy towards cop killers and terrorists but can't find it to do so with conservatives.   The level of hatred is what puzzles me. 

I dont think anyone showed empathy towards cop killers or terrorists though.

Understanding the situations in the ME and what leads to people being pushed  to radicilization and being taken advantage of isnt the same as empathy for terrorists.
Being empathetic to people who feel mistreated historically by police isnt the same as being empathetic towards cop killers.

And yes...Im guessing multiple people may take exception with that post...its not mob and piling on...I think it was a very questionable post.

Edited by sho nuff

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8 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

I am not saying it is wrong.  It is good to understand and discuss why.  My point was why does the left display some level of empathy towards cop killers and terrorists but can't find it to do so with conservatives.   The level of hatred is what puzzles me. 

I personally think this is an unfair premise....it's not because they are conservatives, otherwise it would be most conservatives that experience this issue right?  I'm not saying it's not part of it, but there HAS to be more to the equation because there are many of us who don't experience this problem.  I go round and round with "liberals" around here...Tobias and I have had knock down dragouts.  I've been in many arguments with HF, TGunz, Tim, you name it...I've had arguments/disagreements with all of them.

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8 minutes ago, cap'n grunge said:

Quite frankly, Trump is to blame. His over the top fear and hate mongering, attack of the truth and facts, attack of the media who try hold him accountable, and just overall narcissist behavior is so far out of bounds it's unconscionable. When someone supports him it's hard to take them seriously. It just doesn't make sense.

I should have said it's hard for me to make sense of it, and I think for others.

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2 minutes ago, The Commish said:

I personally think this is an unfair premise....it's not because they are conservatives, otherwise it would be most conservatives that experience this issue right?  I'm not saying it's not part of it, but there HAS to be more to the equation because there are many of us who don't experience this problem.  I go round and round with "liberals" around here...Tobias and I have had knock down dragouts.  I've been in many arguments with HF, TGunz, Tim, you name it...I've had arguments/disagreements with all of them.

It was not the best point, just something I see that I don't get.  There are better points that need discussion.

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Just now, jon_mx said:

It was not the best point, just something I see that I don't get.  There are better points that need discussion.

I thought it was a fine point :shrug:

What's are the others you want to discuss?

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9 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The order is reversed.  They throw stuff first

I picture Gary walking into Cheers for the first time and everyone argues with him about something meaningless and everyone’s feelings are hurt. Then every day for a week he walks in and calls them a horrible name and leaves. 
 

Where does it end?

And not just you specifically. I think you know I am sympathetic with where it all began for you and this board not getting along, just not in agreement with your method of expressing your frustration. 

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1 minute ago, sho nuff said:

I dont think anyone showed empathy towards cop killers or terrorists though.

Understanding the situations in the ME and what leads to people being pushed  to radicilization and being taken advantage of isnt the same as empathy for terrorists.

Being empathetic to people who feel mistreated historically by police isnt the same as being empathetic towards cop killers.

Exactly. After 9/11 some on the left pointed out that the attack was not because "They hate us for our freedom!" but rather blowback as a response to decades of US policies and interference in that region. That is not justifying in any way what happened nor showing empathy to those who did it, but rather is giving some perspective as to why these reprehensible actions happened. 

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