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Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better

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14 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Say we have a 10% chance of seeing it. A 10% chance of being suspended for a week should be a decent disincentive.

We all know what’s going to really happen is the same behavior as before continues.  Then someone complains and they get whacked instead of the real offenders, which are a much bigger problem than the whining

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2 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Id disagree with most.  But yes an informal online forum isn’t exactly a bad place for such things.

Yet here we are.....at this stage of the life of this forum.

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20 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Say we have a 10% chance of seeing it. A 10% chance of being suspended for a week should be a decent disincentive.

I hope there is a 0% chance of seeing your suggested new forum rules implemented as it would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. This would result in horribly inconsistent enforcement of the rules depending on which mod saw which offending post. This "decent disincentive" would result in most regulars not reacting to any post out of fear of a suspension, or more likely, not posting in this forum at all  (although perhaps that is the intent).

This would pretty much kill all discussion of involving opposing views in this forum and would reduce it to a collection cut and paste news articles and/or links, plus twitter retweets. It would be better to have no forum at all than the one you are suggesting. 

Just my :2cents:

Edited by squistion

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2 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

Yet here we are.....at this stage of the life of this forum.

IMO the reaction to snark is more the issue.  So the solution seems to be lore to “outlaw” snark.

His board and that should be followed...but its ok to disagree and still abide.

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6 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

We all know what’s going to really happen is the same behavior as before continues.  Then someone complains and they get whacked instead of the real offenders, which are a much bigger problem than the whining

I trust the moderators to not only look at the whiner but the post they are whining about.  And, if appropriate, ban both of them.  

Even if I'm wrong, I'd rather give it a try than accept the closing of the forum.  What better option is there?

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1 hour ago, JohnnyU said:

Never met anyone that compared being snarky and a smart *** as being a result of good genes.  Most consider it a character flaw.

Doubling down on ignorance is a character flaw too.  But it’s standard practice in daily life.

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13 minutes ago, squistion said:

I hope there is a 0% chance of seeing your suggested new forum rules implemented as it would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. This would result in horribly inconsistent enforcement of the rules depending on which mod saw which offending post. This "decent disincentive" would result in most regulars not reacting to any post out of fear of a suspension, or more likely, not posting in this forum at all  (although perhaps that is the intent).

This would pretty much kill all discussion of involving opposing views in this forum and would reduce it to a collection cut and paste news articles and/or links, plus twitter retweets. It would be better to have no forum at all than the one you are suggesting. 

Just my :2cents:

I don't think it would be hard at all to disagree (even strongly) with another poster without breaking Maurile's proposed rules.  We just have to be self-aware.

Anyway, if one messes up once and gets banned for a week, it's not like some life altering traumatic event.  

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Just now, Alex P Keaton said:

Doubling down on ignorance is a character flaw too.  But it’s standard practice in daily life.

I agree, albeit ignorance is subjective.

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1 hour ago, jomar said:

I get what you're saying and I agree with it but I believe this is because when there is a terrorist attack involving Muslims, people use it as validation to blame Muslims in general.  you get things like POTUS wanting to ban muslims, you have muslims around the country being harassed and told to 'go back where you came from'.  When a white Christian male is involved in a terror act, I have never seen anyone calling for a ban on Christians or harassing Christians around the country.  If someone were to point that out, its not because they are sympathetic to terrorists, its that there sympathetic to innocent people (in this case Muslims) being villifed for what a couple nuts who happened to share a religion with them did.  Now sure, I'm sure you could find a couple people on Twitter complaining about Christians when a white Christian male shoots a bunch of people, but its nowhere near as wide spread and certainly no POTUS has ever suggested a ban because of their religion

I got to know a Muslim woman who joined our work team a few years ago. She talked about how her family had someone spray paint a swastika on their car. IIRC this was shortly before Trump was elected. After Trump was elected she was pretty worried what that meant for her family because his behavior made racist brazeness OK with the nutjobs out there. I wouldn't want to be in her shoes in this day and age.

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13 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

I agree, albeit ignorance is subjective.

Not true, it can be measured in a test, poll or study. 

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17 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

I agree, albeit ignorance is subjective.

So is snark and smart ###.

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29 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

I trust the moderators to not only look at the whiner but the post they are whining about.  And, if appropriate, ban both of them.  

Even if I'm wrong, I'd rather give it a try than accept the closing of the forum.  What better option is there?

Oh, they can do what they want obviously.  Just saying Joe can't go around telling people to report things and then other mods suspend people for whining.  I mean the idea is great in theory but at the end of the day just ban the guys that constantly argue with posters just because of who they are and ban the guys that can't stick to the damn topic because they ruin every thread with whataboutisms.  Whatever, enjoy football today.  Nothing is changing on this board.  We've done this game before with a "reset" that lasted 2 days.  Joe's either going to keep dealing with it or kill it.

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44 minutes ago, squistion said:

I hope there is a 0% chance of seeing your suggested new forum rules implemented as it would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. This would result in horribly inconsistent enforcement of the rules depending on which mod saw which offending post. This "decent disincentive" would result in most regulars not reacting to any post out of fear of a suspension, or more likely, not posting in this forum at all  (although perhaps that is the intent).

This would pretty much kill all discussion of involving opposing views in this forum and would reduce it to a collection cut and paste news articles and/or links, plus twitter retweets. It would be better to have no forum at all than the one you are suggesting. 

Just my :2cents:

What were you suspended a month or two ago?  I mean was it for the things MT mentioned?

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I wanted to make a comment about motives, and misapplying them, because I think this is a big part of the divide, not just in this forum, but around the country. 

Yesterday in my love thread @Opie wrote that he believed that the motive of those for impeaching and removing Donald Trump was to substitute that process for the election because it was an easier way to get rid of him. I’m sure he honestly believes that. But nobody that I know has this attitude; everyone I’ve encountered that is in favor of impeachment honestly believes that Trump committed a high crime. 

I use this as one example but of course we see this all the time on all sides. Conservatives oppose an issue because they are racist. Liberals are for an issue because they are unpatriotic. There is a tendency to ascribe the worst possible motives to the other side. Have I done this? Of course I have. It’s easy, it’s lazy, and best of all it makes you feel self-righteous. It’s much harder to consistently give the other side the benefit of the doubt in terms of honest conviction because when you do that, suddenly there are no villains and you’re forced to examine your own convictions more carefully: much harder, and much healthier. 

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A little good-natured snarkiness is easy to tolerate.  But the problem is, someone on the conservative side only gets snark and not all of it is good nature. Meanwhile liberals or anti-Trump posters get their points acknowledged and liked with a sprinkling of snarkiness.  

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

A little good-natured snarkiness is easy to tolerate.  But the problem is, someone on the conservative side only gets snark and not all of it is good nature. Meanwhile liberals or anti-Trump posters get their points acknowledged and liked with a sprinkling of snarkiness.  

Yeah, the anti-Trump snark is much more tolerated and acknowledged than when it comes from a Pro-Trump poster. That's kind of where I was going with "police your own"

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3 hours ago, JohnnyU said:

Somehow I don't think most posters in this forum would call or insinuate someone is a racist,  homophobe, or xenophobe to their face. It seems to be the go to for a lot of posters to Trump supporters. 

You don’t think people call out racism and homophobia in person?

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3 hours ago, Summer Wheat said:

Of course you will have some that will. I would venture to say that the most aggressive posters here in terms of being snarky, smart assed, are not that way at all in day to life. I have stated a number of times that during the week I come across a wide variety of people and nobody acts or talks the way they do in the PSF. I mean nobody.

I don’t know if I fit that profile for you, but I definitely am more aggressively smart assed in person. I try to be nice here most of the time.  

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7 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

A little good-natured snarkiness is easy to tolerate.  But the problem is, someone on the conservative side only gets snark and not all of it is good nature. Meanwhile liberals or anti-Trump posters get their points acknowledged and liked with a sprinkling of snarkiness.  

Excellent point, as I don't recall Tim, myself, Sho, Bucky or Tobias ever seeing a response with more than "a sprinkling of snarkiness". 

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6 minutes ago, jamny said:

Yeah, the anti-Trump snark is much more tolerated and acknowledged than when it comes from a Pro-Trump poster. That's kind of where I was going with "police your own"

And it is mostly a function of numbers.  When the numbers run 7 to 1 there is 7 times more snark from one side and the 1 gets reported 7 times more frequently. 

Edited by jon_mx
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14 hours ago, jamny said:

Post a rule suggestion:

 

Use the ignore feature

 

I don't have anyone on ignore but I have also never reported anyone. If you find yourself reporting someone, maybe think about putting them on ignore instead. Do this for the sake of the board. Many of us don't want this board to go away so maybe do it for everyone else.

See.  And to this I just say grow the f up.  If someone cant handle another person's opinion then they shouldnt be on a board like this.  That person has maturing to do. 

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5 minutes ago, squistion said:

Excellent point, as I don't recall Tim, myself, Sho, Bucky or Tobias ever seeing a response with more than "a sprinkling of snarkiness". 

In this case your notebook is wrong.

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6 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

See.  And to this I just say grow the f up.  If someone cant handle another person's opinion then they shouldnt be on a board like this.  That person has maturing to do. 

Ok, but until then they should use the ignore feature out of respect for the moderators and the posters who dont want this forum to go away.

Edited by jamny
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16 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

A little good-natured snarkiness is easy to tolerate.  But the problem is, someone on the conservative side only gets snark and not all of it is good nature. Meanwhile liberals or anti-Trump posters get their points acknowledged and liked with a sprinkling of snarkiness.  

Can we all please stop complaining about how unfair it is? That is one of the things Joe wants to see go away. If you think it’s unfair, do your best not to contribute to the unfairness. That’s all anyone can do. But if you truly want this forum to stick around please STOP whining about a double standard! 

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Can we all please stop complaining about how unfair it is? That is one of the things Joe wants to see go away. If you think it’s unfair, do your best not to contribute to the unfairness. That’s all anyone can do. But if you truly want this forum to stick around please STOP whining about a double standard! 

Jon gets piled on all the time. Stop blaming him. 

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17 minutes ago, jamny said:

Ok, but until then they should use the ignore feature out of respect for the moderators and the posters who dont want this forum to go away.

No.  Just actually ignore the person.  Be an adult

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If you kill this board your moderation of the other boards will quintuple.  

With no outlet for the obsessions here, they wont be able to help themselves. 

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14 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

Jon gets piled on all the time. Stop blaming him. 

I am not piling on him or anybody else. I am asking all of us- ALL OF US- to stop complaining about moderators, about other people, about ANYTHING. Let’s all stop complaining period. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I am not piling on him or anybody else. I am asking all of us- ALL OF US- to stop complaining about moderators, about other people, about ANYTHING. Let’s all stop complaining period. 

In most other threads, I would agree. I think in a thread designed to discuss how we can make this forum better, for everyone, I think it's an appropriate discussion.

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I am not piling on him or anybody else. I am asking all of us- ALL OF US- to stop complaining about moderators, about other people, about ANYTHING. Let’s all stop complaining period. 

Your post about Jon was complaining about him. You stated recently you’d leave if you did that.

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Just now, John Blutarsky said:

Your post about Jon was complaining about him. You stated recently you’d leave if you did that.

No I was responding to him, asking him, and all of us not to do something. 

Complaining is a big problem around here. If you want to trap me by claiming that I myself am complaining by complaining about complaining, lol, I suppose you can do so. But my purpose is to stop the griping, not to extend it. 

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4 minutes ago, jamny said:

In most other threads, I would agree. I think in a thread designed to discuss how we can make this forum better, for everyone, I think it's an appropriate discussion.

Maybe once it would have been but it’s not like there’s a single person reading this who does not know that jon and many others believe that there is a double standard here and that conservatives are less welcome than liberals. What’s the point of repeating it for the umpteenth time? As I wrote, if there is unfairness in that regard let’s all try to be better. And let’s also stop complaining about it. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

No I was responding to him, asking him, and all of us not to do something. 

Complaining is a big problem around here. If you want to trap me by claiming that I myself am complaining by complaining about complaining, lol, I suppose you can do so. But my purpose is to stop the griping, not to extend it. 

No trapping, just pointing out the truth. 

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I posted this in the al Baghdadi is dead thread but got no response, so I will try again here:

Serious question:

If this forum is shut down and all politically related threads prohibited, would this type of thread (about a death of a terrorist) be allowed in the FFA (since it seems 80% of the responses are political in nature)? Or would it be allowed and then the mods would edit out or purge any post with a political implication? Would quotes from Trump's WH presser be allowed and/or would his political comments on the subject also be selectively edited by the mods too?

By the same token, would any thread about news of a terrorist attack be allowed on the FFA? Or how about most of the threads about mass shootings (since at the very least those morph into a discussion about gun control)?

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Well someone call always start up another :E: forum or just start a subforum on Reddit or Twitter.    hate to see the PSF shutdown if it ever does but there are alternatives.    

 

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22 minutes ago, squistion said:

I posted this in the al Baghdadi is dead thread but got no response, so I will try again here:

Serious question:

If this forum is shut down and all politically related threads prohibited, would this type of thread (about a death of a terrorist) be allowed in the FFA (since it seems 80% of the responses are political in nature)? Or would it be allowed and then the mods would edit out or purge any post with a political implication? Would quotes from Trump's WH presser be allowed and/or would his political comments on the subject also be selectively edited by the mods too?

By the same token, would any thread about news of a terrorist attack be allowed on the FFA? Or how about most of the threads about mass shootings (since at the very least those morph into a discussion about gun control)?

This is why I think shutting down this forum is a bad idea for the health of the overall board.  There is no good way of handling it.  I suppose they  might follow a “stick to the news” approach but no doubt that would be problematic and frustrating.

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On 10/25/2019 at 2:00 PM, Maurile Tremblay said:

There have been a lot of good thoughts in this thread. After reading through them, I have some of my own for Joe and the rest of you to consider.

What kind of posts do we want here? Civil discussion of substantive issues where people share information and their analysis of it with each other.

What kind of posts do we not want here? Everything else.

That includes:

  • Foul language and personal insults.
  • Complaining about foul language and personal insults.
  • Criticism of the moderation except in the thread designated for that purpose.
  • Trolling.
  • Accusations of trolling.
  • Criticism of other posters instead of their ideas.
  • Complaints about being criticized personally.
  • Emojis or one-liners that add nothing to the discussion.
  • Complaints about emojis or one-liners that add nothing to the discussion.
  • Whining about how horrible the PSF is.
  • Calling out people for their whining.

Let's stop all of that stuff. In other words, please don't engage in bad behavior, and also, please don't play board cop when you see others engaging in bad behavior. Report it if it's egregious. Whether you report it or not, don't respond to it. Don't call it out. That's what causes all the pointless bickering. Just ignore it and move on. If you can't ignore it by exercising self-restraint, then ignore it by using Invision's ignore feature. I think moderators should start giving generous suspensions both to the people who troll and to the people who accuse others of trolling; to the people who get personal and to those who complain about it; to the people who post nothing but a laughing emoji and to the people who call it out.

Also, while you yourself should probably ignore a number of specific posters, you should not tell others to ignore specific posters.

This seems like a lot of work to moderate, just my :2cents: 

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12 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

This is why I think shutting down this forum is a bad idea for the health of the overall board.  There is no good way of handling it.  I suppose they  might follow a “stick to the news” approach but no doubt that would be problematic and frustrating.

Shutting it down and banning political talk seems like even more work to moderate.

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1 hour ago, squistion said:

I posted this in the al Baghdadi is dead thread but got no response, so I will try again here:

Serious question:

If this forum is shut down and all politically related threads prohibited, would this type of thread (about a death of a terrorist) be allowed in the FFA (since it seems 80% of the responses are political in nature)? Or would it be allowed and then the mods would edit out or purge any post with a political implication? Would quotes from Trump's WH presser be allowed and/or would his political comments on the subject also be selectively edited by the mods too?

By the same token, would any thread about news of a terrorist attack be allowed on the FFA? Or how about most of the threads about mass shootings (since at the very least those morph into a discussion about gun control)?

Pretty sure you guys will ruin those boards too.  You wont  be able to help yourselves 

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4 hours ago, timschochet said:

No I was responding to him, asking him, and all of us not to do something. 

Complaining is a big problem around here. If you want to trap me by claiming that I myself am complaining by complaining about complaining, lol, I suppose you can do so. But my purpose is to stop the griping, not to extend it. 

I was trying to explain why it is easier for the 87 percent to ignore snark.  It is easier because there are many people acknowledging their points and relatively very little snark.  The small minority on the other hand gets mostly snark and usually zero acknowledgement or support for their points.  That is not complaining Tim.  That is discussion of reality in this forum and why it is easy for those in the majority to say just ignore it.  You can't ignore it when those are the only replies you are getting.   If you really thought about the point objectively you would understand how that applies to any minority and maybe lead everyone to a better understanding of how to respect people in a minority situation.  

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31 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

I was trying to explain why it is easier for the 87 percent to ignore snark.  It is easier because there are many people acknowledging their points and relatively very little snark.  The small minority on the other hand gets mostly snark and usually zero acknowledgement or support for their points.  That is not complaining Tim.  That is discussion of reality in this forum and why it is easy for those in the majority to say just ignore it.  You can't ignore it when those are the only replies you are getting.   If you really thought about the point objectively you would understand how that applies to any minority and maybe lead everyone to a better understanding of how to respect people in a minority situation.  

Did hell freeze over or is jon lecturing on how to best treat minorities?

 

 

Edited by cosjobs
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5 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

I don’t know if I fit that profile for you, but I definitely am more aggressively smart assed in person. I try to be nice here most of the time.  

link?

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4 minutes ago, cosjobs said:

Did hell freeze over or is jon lecturing on how the best treat minorities?

Even worse, I was pointing out the institutionalized liberal-priviledge which exists here. 

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8 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Even worse, I was pointing out the institutionalized liberal-priviledge which exists here. 

Sounds like you're calling it a cesspool

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8 minutes ago, cosjobs said:

Sounds like you're calling it a cesspool

Sounds like you are misrepresenting other peoples posts.

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1 minute ago, cosjobs said:

Sounds like you're calling it a cesspool

Not at all.  But when you are in a majority, it is important to listen more closely to the minority viewpoint and at least acknowledge it and try to avoid the piling on which will only serve to unfairly squash that voice.  That could apply to women, blacks, Hispanics or whatever. 

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