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*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (24 Viewers)

foxco said:
Great article. Fascinating how Japan reacted so well. 
I assume it would be a major challenge to change the ventilation in thousands of schools in such a small time frame. Maybe that's why it isn't brought up as much as it should be, it's just not feasible at this point despite the obvious safety risks. 
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It is feasible. It would just mean ditching the mantra of test and trace which thus far has worked so well. 

 
foxco said:
I assume it would be a major challenge to change the ventilation in thousands of schools in such a small time frame. Maybe that's why it isn't brought up as much as it should be, it's just not feasible at this point despite the obvious safety risks. 
Click to expand...
There are some good-enough-for-now shortcuts based on what some hospitals have been doing to convert regular rooms into negative-pressure ICU rooms. The same strategy can generally be employed anywhere with central air, though:

1) Either fit a building's air filtration with HEPA-standard filters, or else employ air scrubbers (supplementary filtration, not cooling) in poorly-ventilated areas where stale air & aerosols are slow to disburse. Decent air scrubbers go for $700 - $1,500+ depending on  capacity (how much air they move per unit of time).

2) Jury-rig in-room systems to bypass a building's recirculated air. Basically, turn a central air system into a bunch of single-room systems (esp. if those single rooms had been stale-air bottlenecks). A window to the outdoors is required to fit a room this way. The quick-&-dirty method: remove a window, cover with plywood and seal edges, cut hole in plywood, seal flexible ductwork to that hole, run ductwork to the room's air intake to ensure that outside air is always getting fed back in to the system as inside air and accumulated aerosols are released via outdoor condenser fans. Yes, this is extra energy overhead for a system meant to handle and cool recirculated indoor air -- it a given building's unit is on its last legs, it will have to be upgraded. And if upgraded, something "overbuilt" is recommended (e.g. a unit meant for 10,000 sq ft might now be more appropriate for a 5,000 sq ft space constantly exchanging air with the outdoors).

 
Doug B said:
There are some good-enough-for-now shortcuts based on what some hospitals have been doing to convert regular rooms into negative-pressure ICU rooms. The same strategy can generally be employed anywhere with central air, though:

1) Either fit a building's air filtration with HEPA-standard filters, or else employ air scrubbers (supplementary filtration, not cooling) in poorly-ventilated areas where stale air & aerosols are slow to disburse. Decent air scrubbers go for $700 - $1,500+ depending on  capacity (how much air they move per unit of time).

2) Jury-rig in-room systems to bypass a building's recirculated air. Basically, turn a central air system into a bunch of single-room systems (esp. if those single rooms had been stale-air bottlenecks). A window to the outdoors is required to fit a room this way. The quick-&-dirty method: remove a window, cover with plywood and seal edges, cut hole in plywood, seal flexible ductwork to that hole, run ductwork to the room's air intake to ensure that outside air is always getting fed back in to the system as inside air and accumulated aerosols are released via outdoor condenser fans. Yes, this is extra energy overhead for a system meant to handle and cool recirculated indoor air -- it a given building's unit is on its last legs, it will have to be upgraded. And if upgraded, something "overbuilt" is recommended (e.g. a unit meant for 10,000 sq ft might now be more appropriate for a 5,000 sq ft space constantly exchanging air with the outdoors).
Click to expand...
Can we go back to the old days of open windows and fans?

 
Blick said:
Can we go back to the old days of open windows and fans?
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Probably better than nothing ... but spots where "used" air collects would still be an issue. With ductwork, air can be routed as needed ... fans move air in one general direction only.

Plus fans in a typical classroom with papers on desks and stuff ... kind of a PITA.

 
Doug B said:
Probably better than nothing ... but spots where "used" air collects would still be an issue. With ductwork, air can be routed as needed ... fans move air in one general direction only.

Plus fans in a typical classroom with papers on desks and stuff ... kind of a PITA.
Click to expand...
Understood.  I just haven't seen anything like this included in school safety plans.

 
Blick said:
Doug B said:
Probably better than nothing ... but spots where "used" air collects would still be an issue. With ductwork, air can be routed as needed ... fans move air in one general direction only.

Plus fans in a typical classroom with papers on desks and stuff ... kind of a PITA.
Click to expand...
Understood.  I just haven't seen anything like this included in school safety plans.
Click to expand...
I'm spitballing based on what I'm seeing in hospitals (disclosure: part of my job involves reviewing expenses for labor and materials our hospital clients have incurred by fitting rooms for COVID care). I think the same basic ideas can be ported in modified form to schools, retail establishments, restaurants, etc.

EDIT: Also, what you just posted is the point of the Atlantic article parasaurolophus linked -- improving indoor air quality is currently an afterthought in COVID-19 mitigation strategies, when indoor air quality should be front and center. And not just a blanket condemnation of "indoor AC air BAD! ... outdoor air GOOD!" Put some engineering muscle behind it and make things happen -- unlike a vaccine, nothing needs to be invented or created out of whole cloth. Yes, better, more efficient and energy-sparing mousetraps can and will be built to address indoor air quality ... but initial efforts can still pay big dividends.

 
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Doug B said:
Probably better than nothing ... but spots where "used" air collects would still be an issue. With ductwork, air can be routed as needed ... fans move air in one general direction only.

Plus fans in a typical classroom with papers on desks and stuff ... kind of a PITA.
Click to expand...
I find this comment funny considering our last conversation about sacrifice. 

45-60 day quarantine is easy! 

Paperweights are a bridge too far! 

(I know i am using hyperbole and you didnt actually use those exact words and i am sure the same subtle inconsistencies exist in plenty of my arguments) 

 
Doug B said:
There are some good-enough-for-now shortcuts based on what some hospitals have been doing to convert regular rooms into negative-pressure ICU rooms. The same strategy can generally be employed anywhere with central air, though:

1) Either fit a building's air filtration with HEPA-standard filters, or else employ air scrubbers (supplementary filtration, not cooling) in poorly-ventilated areas where stale air & aerosols are slow to disburse. Decent air scrubbers go for $700 - $1,500+ depending on  capacity (how much air they move per unit of time).

2) Jury-rig in-room systems to bypass a building's recirculated air. Basically, turn a central air system into a bunch of single-room systems (esp. if those single rooms had been stale-air bottlenecks). A window to the outdoors is required to fit a room this way. The quick-&-dirty method: remove a window, cover with plywood and seal edges, cut hole in plywood, seal flexible ductwork to that hole, run ductwork to the room's air intake to ensure that outside air is always getting fed back in to the system as inside air and accumulated aerosols are released via outdoor condenser fans. Yes, this is extra energy overhead for a system meant to handle and cool recirculated indoor air -- it a given building's unit is on its last legs, it will have to be upgraded. And if upgraded, something "overbuilt" is recommended (e.g. a unit meant for 10,000 sq ft might now be more appropriate for a 5,000 sq ft space constantly exchanging air with the outdoors).
Click to expand...
Those are not insignificant costs for larger districts that may not have much money to begin with to outfit all their classrooms like that.

I’m not saying you’re wrong in the solution, but for large cash strapped districts, doing online learning may be the only option they think they can afford.

 
parasaurolophus said:
I find this comment funny considering our last conversation about sacrifice. 

45-60 day quarantine is easy! 

Paperweights are a bridge too far! 
Click to expand...
All I'm saying is that fans are in general too blunt of an instrument ... but as I said, certainly better than nothing. If a building is cash-strapped, and all they can do it put a donated box fan in each room and open windows, then do it and pass out paperweights.

If, say, a school were to employ the box-fans-open-windows method, at least have someone walk around the classrooms (with the fans running) with a cheap air-flow detection system to locate "dead spots" where stale air and aerosols will accumulate. That way, seating can be arranged to make sure no one is sitting in that dead spot all day long. 

 
GroveDiesel said:
Those are not insignificant costs for larger districts that may not have much money to begin with to outfit all their classrooms like that.

I’m not saying you’re wrong in the solution, but for large cash strapped districts, doing online learning may be the only option they think they can afford.
Click to expand...
Wouldnt those large cash strapped districts be the same districts that have a high % of kids without computers and poor internet connections? 

 
GroveDiesel said:
Those are not insignificant costs for larger districts that may not have much money to begin with to outfit all their classrooms like that.

I’m not saying you’re wrong in the solution, but for large cash strapped districts, doing online learning may be the only option they think they can afford.
Click to expand...
Talking specifically schools here:

I agree with you -- I am not proposing that school districts across the U.S. all hurry up and over the next two weeks implement HVAC-heavy solutions in time for the coming school year. Filtration can be upgraded relatively cheaply and quickly, though.

Now ... to improve building HVAC over a period of two or three years? That's more feasible, and perhaps something worth a federal grants initiative.

 
By the time you even get bids for the hvac work the virus will be controlled.  Not to mention most building materials now is in a massive shortage, so in the fantasy world where you could contract out 300,000 HVAC systems overnight there isn't enough ductwork and fittings to do maybe 10% of it..  

 
Doug B said:
All I'm saying is that fans are in general too blunt of an instrument ... but as I said, certainly better than nothing. If a building is cash-strapped, and all they can do it put a donated box fan in each room and open windows, then do it and pass out paperweights.

If, say, a school were to employ the box-fans-open-windows method, at least have someone walk around the classrooms (with the fans running) with a cheap air-flow detection system to locate "dead spots" where stale air and aerosols will accumulate. That way, seating can be arranged to make sure no one is sitting in that dead spot all day long. 
Click to expand...
I was just poking fun.

Your point about accumulated air is very valid. I would think the best implementation of fans and windows would be to have fans at the entrance of the classroom pointing out the door rather than having fans blowing air around the room. Then have massive fans in the hallways going in one direction toward an exit. Basically creating a big wind tunnel and suction. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
I was just poking fun.

Your point about accumulated air is very valid. I would think the best implementation of fans and windows would be to have fans at the entrance of the classroom pointing out the door rather than having fans blowing air around the room. Then have massive fans in the hallways going in one direction toward an exit. Basically creating a big wind tunnel and suction. 
Click to expand...
I'm emailing my school board to tell them FBG's solved their COVID problem!

 
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Blick said:
parasaurolophus said:
I was just poking fun.

Your point about accumulated air is very valid. I would think the best implementation of fans and windows would be to have fans at the entrance of the classroom pointing out the door rather than having fans blowing air around the room. Then have massive fans in the hallways going in one direction toward an exit. Basically creating a big wind tunnel and suction. 
Click to expand...
I'm emailing my school board to tell them FBG's solved their COVID problem!
Click to expand...
It's a part of the puzzle. In aggregate, schools that consider and plan around airflow issues will mitigate the risk of COVID-19 infection better than schools that don't.

 
culdeus said:
By the time you even get bids for the hvac work the virus will be controlled.  Not to mention most building materials now is in a massive shortage, so in the fantasy world where you could contract out 300,000 HVAC systems overnight there isn't enough ductwork and fittings to do maybe 10% of it..  
Click to expand...
Considering in the early months of school AC is almost exclusively for improved comfort,  making a decision to bring in fresh air into system rather than recycled will mostly just mean the building sits at 4-5 degrees warmer than previous if you didn't want extra cost. 

Plenty of other small scale things that can make a huge difference. 

 
Doug B said:
There are some good-enough-for-now shortcuts based on what some hospitals have been doing to convert regular rooms into negative-pressure ICU rooms. The same strategy can generally be employed anywhere with central air, though:

1) Either fit a building's air filtration with HEPA-standard filters, or else employ air scrubbers (supplementary filtration, not cooling) in poorly-ventilated areas where stale air & aerosols are slow to disburse. Decent air scrubbers go for $700 - $1,500+ depending on  capacity (how much air they move per unit of time).

2) Jury-rig in-room systems to bypass a building's recirculated air. Basically, turn a central air system into a bunch of single-room systems (esp. if those single rooms had been stale-air bottlenecks). A window to the outdoors is required to fit a room this way. The quick-&-dirty method: remove a window, cover with plywood and seal edges, cut hole in plywood, seal flexible ductwork to that hole, run ductwork to the room's air intake to ensure that outside air is always getting fed back in to the system as inside air and accumulated aerosols are released via outdoor condenser fans. Yes, this is extra energy overhead for a system meant to handle and cool recirculated indoor air -- it a given building's unit is on its last legs, it will have to be upgraded. And if upgraded, something "overbuilt" is recommended (e.g. a unit meant for 10,000 sq ft might now be more appropriate for a 5,000 sq ft space constantly exchanging air with the outdoors).
Click to expand...
I think a workable solution would be something like this...

Synexis Sentry

https://synexis.com/microbial-reduction-products/

At a cost of $2k per unit/classroom.

 
Doug B said:
It's a part of the puzzle. In aggregate, schools that consider and plan around airflow issues will mitigate the risk of COVID-19 infection better than schools that don't.
Click to expand...
Yup.

Honestly, it's probably more important than the fomite mania that still exists. While we should be cleaning things and washing our hands because it's so easy to do, it does not appear to be as important as the airborne stuff.  The article correctly points out that we aren't doing much about aerosols while focusing on less important issues.  

 
Faucci's comments yesterday will hopefully help move guidance forward here.

We need to pay a little bit more attention now to the recirculation of air indoors, which tells you that mask-wearing indoors when you’re in a situation like that is something that is as important as wearing masks when you’re outside dealing with individuals who you don’t know where they came from or who they are,” Fauci said.
Click to expand...

 
parasaurolophus said:
Wouldnt those large cash strapped districts be the same districts that have a high % of kids without computers and poor internet connections? 
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I didn’t say it was a good idea or one that would benefit the kids. But if you’re the NY school district or Philly school district, there is zero chance you are coming up with the funding and implementation of even something as minor as buying fans for every classroom in the district. Districts where teachers are paying for the school supplies out of their own pockets are basically hopeless at this point and it sucks.

 
siffoin said:
I think a workable solution would be something like this...

Synexis Sentry

https://synexis.com/microbial-reduction-products/

At a cost of $2k per unit/classroom.
Click to expand...
I am looking forward to learning more about dry hydrogen peroxide (DHP) use.

An article from last month covering a Synexis press conference. (KCTV, Kansas City 6/30/2020)

A school in Colorado is installing Synexis' DHP air scrubbing devices into their existing HVAC ductwork. (Colorado Sun 8/4/2020)

 
My wife and I got tested Sunday morning at the MedExpress (paid for it) and got our results this morning...both negative.  Neither of us had fevers but we've been feeling lousy with sore throats and some congestion/post nasal drip.

 
culdeus said:
By the time you even get bids for the hvac work the virus will be controlled.  Not to mention most building materials now is in a massive shortage, so in the fantasy world where you could contract out 300,000 HVAC systems overnight there isn't enough ductwork and fittings to do maybe 10% of it..  
Click to expand...
Seems like something that needs to be done for this pandemic (which is highly unlikely to be controlled before work could begin, let alone before the bid is awarded) and as preparation for the next.

 
Doug B said:
siffoin said:
I think a workable solution would be something like this...

Synexis Sentry

https://synexis.com/microbial-reduction-products/

At a cost of $2k per unit/classroom.
Click to expand...
I am looking forward to learning more about dry hydrogen peroxide (DHP) use.

An article from last month covering a Synexis press conference. (KCTV, Kansas City 6/30/2020)

A school in Colorado is installing Synexis' DHP air scrubbing devices into their existing HVAC ductwork. (Colorado Sun 8/4/2020)
Click to expand...
It's been a challenge to quickly find information online about Synexis' kind of passive application of dry hydrogen peroxide (DHP) to indoor conditioned air. I have information about active indoor application of DHP in the form of foggers, which requires HVAC vents and intakes to be covered during use.

That made me wonder if DHP gas was safe to breathe over extended periods of time given small enough quantities. The following is from Synexis' own FAQ section ... since they sell passive DHP systems, maybe this information should be considered with a degree of healthy skepticism until more is learned, corroboration takes place, and some degree of consensus is reached. Nevertheless, from Synexis:

Is it safe?
Yes! DHP is deployed at 5-25 parts per billion. This produces extremely effective microbial reduction at incredibly safe levels of H2O2. A single Synexis unit would have to run continuously for 2.5 years to reach the concentration of 1 droplet of a 3% aqueous solution of H2O2. DHP concentrations fall far below acceptable safety limits for human exposure established by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA).

At 5 to 25 parts per billion, how does DHP kill anything?
Microbes require water to survive and will naturally attract water molecules from the environment. Hydrogen peroxide molecules are very similar in structure to water molecules and thus are also attracted to the same receptor sites on a microbe; however, unlike water molecules, hydrogen peroxide oxidizes the microbes’ cell membrane and disrupts their chemical structure. Liquid hydrogen peroxide must compete with water molecules for access to these points on a microbe’s cell membrane. DHP is effective at lower concentrations because it is in a gaseous state and non-aqueous.
Click to expand...

 
culdeus said:
By the time you even get bids for the hvac work the virus will be controlled.  Not to mention most building materials now is in a massive shortage, so in the fantasy world where you could contract out 300,000 HVAC systems overnight there isn't enough ductwork and fittings to do maybe 10% of it..  
Click to expand...
All of that only affects the ability for changes to be made "instantly". You're right -- it can't all happen overnight all over the U.S. all at once.

On the other hand, building/construction codes and standards can be changed (as they so often are) so that over a period of years, general improvements can be made. Perhaps "stale air" and "poor ventilation" is the new "asbestos" or "lead paint".

EDIT: Forgot to add -- don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. While not all that many districts can whip up "perfect" air-improvement plans for their schools ... every school can do at least a little something to get better.

 
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Genuinely not trying to stir anything up, but I'm used to getting the daily numbers here and they've been notably absent lately. Am I correct in assuming things have been improving?

 
eoMMan said:
My wife and I got tested Sunday morning at the MedExpress (paid for it) and got our results this morning...both negative.  Neither of us had fevers but we've been feeling lousy with sore throats and some congestion/post nasal drip.
Click to expand...
Strep?

 
Doug B said:
It's been a challenge to quickly find information online about Synexis' kind of passive application of dry hydrogen peroxide (DHP) to indoor conditioned air. I have information about active indoor application of DHP in the form of foggers, which requires HVAC vents and intakes to be covered during use.

That made me wonder if DHP gas was safe to breathe over extended periods of time given small enough quantities. The following is from Synexis' own FAQ section ... since they sell passive DHP systems, maybe this information should be considered with a degree of healthy skepticism until more is learned, corroboration takes place, and some degree of consensus is reached. Nevertheless, from Synexis:
Click to expand...
They are installed in a bunch of Chik-Fil-A's.  Also Univ of Oklahoma is installing them in over 2000 dorm room for this year.  

 
siffoin said:
Doug B said:
It's been a challenge to quickly find information online about Synexis' kind of passive application of dry hydrogen peroxide (DHP) to indoor conditioned air. I have information about active indoor application of DHP in the form of foggers, which requires HVAC vents and intakes to be covered during use.

That made me wonder if DHP gas was safe to breathe over extended periods of time given small enough quantities. The following is from Synexis' own FAQ section ... since they sell passive DHP systems, maybe this information should be considered with a degree of healthy skepticism until more is learned, corroboration takes place, and some degree of consensus is reached. Nevertheless, from Synexis:
Click to expand...
They are installed in a bunch of Chik-Fil-A's.  Also Univ of Oklahoma is installing them in over 2000 dorm room for this year.  
Click to expand...
Thanks for that info. Looks like promising technology, then.

Some things are going to have to adjust for something resembling pre-COVID life to return. I'm looking forward to any and all good ideas and clever innovations that can help make a difference. 

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Genuinely not trying to stir anything up, but I'm used to getting the daily numbers here and they've been notably absent lately. Am I correct in assuming things have been improving?
Click to expand...
Posters that post daily numbers probably got suspended for talking politics. The threshold is really low for that.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Genuinely not trying to stir anything up, but I'm used to getting the daily numbers here and they've been notably absent lately. Am I correct in assuming things have been improving?
Click to expand...
Florida's numbers have been improving for most metrics, except for deaths, which are delayed about a week or so. However, the number of tests and positives from the last few days are reduced due to hurricane Isaias, so wait a couple more days. The positive rate is still too high, about 12% in Miami, 10% in Broward.

Marc Bevand on Twitter is the one to follow:  Here is my new forecast of COVID-19 deaths in Florida (updated every 4 days at https://github.com/mbevand/florida-covid19-line-list-data/blob/master/README.md#forecasting-deaths)  Deaths are still expected to peak around August 6 at  160-190 deaths per day.  Case Fatality Ratio has stabilized at 1.4%  Mean time from onset-to-death is 19.2 days

And Ben Conarck from the Herald: https://mobile.twitter.com/conarck/status/1290688971434086400?cxt=HHwWgMC-nf-xuekjAAAA

 
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Arizona is mainly good news today with the best news being that the testing backlog is nearly taken care of and Qwest labs now expecting 3-4 day turnaround on tests.

Other potentially good news is that the demand for testing has significantly decreased. Much of the test results are were from backlog tests and not new tests. This is most likely good news but could also be simply people giving up on getting tested because it was taking too long to get test results. We’ll see if the demand remains low if turnaround is drastically improved.

On the negative side, positive rate still remains around 15% and there was an increase in COVID related hospital numbers. It’s only been one day, so tough to tell if it’s anything to be concerned with. 

 
We decided to send our kids to a 5-day morning summer camp through one of the local churches.  Everything was said to be outside, adults were to be wearing masks 100% of the time, and the kids were "encouraged" to wear masks.

Well we're two days in, and none of the kids are wearing masks, including the teenage group leaders.  They congregate indoors to start the day, then go outside for their activities.  

Parents that are picking up their kids are not wearing masks for the most part.  Even inside.  This is actually the scariest part of the whole thing.

And now both of our kids say they have sore throats and the boy has a little cough and the sniffles.  I am almost certain it's all due to the weather but you never know.  We're keeping them inside and away from their neighborhood friends today at minimum to make sure they're OK.  One of the little girls down the street is also inside today with a sore throat.

Wife and I feel absolutely fine, but that may mean nothing.

 
parasaurolophus said:
The Commish said:
I appreciate the discussion about ventilation, but let's be real....that's putting the cart WAY before the horse when this is an acceptable way to open school back up.  We have to learn to crawl before we walk before we run :shrug:
Click to expand...
Doesnt just have to be schools. Can be office environments. 
Click to expand...
Don't disagree...my point, which I thought was clearer than it was apparently, is that we are expecting people to understand and act on ventilation systems when they can't grasp the simple concept of a mask?  

 
The Commish said:
Don't disagree...my point, which I thought was clearer than it was apparently, is that we are expecting people to understand and act on ventilation systems when they can't grasp the simple concept of a mask?  
Click to expand...
Well, at least ventilation improvements can be executed based on the decisions of an informed and earnest few as opposed to a lackadaisical many. Might be harder to get 500 people to pull in the same direction and all wear masks than it is to get a handful of administrators to sign off on a piece of HVAC hardware.

 
My kids went back to school yesterday.  So did my SIL/BIL.

Kid already tested positive at the local elementary school - turns out it is my SIL's neighbor and the kid is at her house all the time  :wall:

The class the neighbor's kid is in is now closed for 14 days.  If that is there plan then every school is going to be closed within 1-2 weeks and we will all be doing remote learning.  And we are one of the stupid counties where they didn't mandate masks.

 
nirad3 said:
We decided to send our kids to a 5-day morning summer camp through one of the local churches.  Everything was said to be outside, adults were to be wearing masks 100% of the time, and the kids were "encouraged" to wear masks.

Well we're two days in, and none of the kids are wearing masks, including the teenage group leaders.  They congregate indoors to start the day, then go outside for their activities.  

Parents that are picking up their kids are not wearing masks for the most part.  Even inside.  This is actually the scariest part of the whole thing.

And now both of our kids say they have sore throats and the boy has a little cough and the sniffles.  I am almost certain it's all due to the weather but you never know.  We're keeping them inside and away from their neighborhood friends today at minimum to make sure they're OK.  One of the little girls down the street is also inside today with a sore throat.

Wife and I feel absolutely fine, but that may mean nothing.
Click to expand...
Is there a reason to keep sending them?  Sounds like a recipe for problems.  If they don't do what they said they would, why give them the benefit of the doubt on anything?

 
AAABatteries said:
My kids went back to school yesterday.  So did my SIL/BIL.

Kid already tested positive at the local elementary school - turns out it is my SIL's neighbor and the kid is at her house all the time  :wall:

The class the neighbor's kid is in is now closed for 14 days.  If that is there plan then every school is going to be closed within 1-2 weeks and we will all be doing remote learning.  And we are one of the stupid counties where they didn't mandate masks.
Click to expand...
And she just texted - her two youngest kids aren't allowed to go back for 2 weeks - what a cluster.

 
trader jake said:
Is there a reason to keep sending them?  Sounds like a recipe for problems.  If they don't do what they said they would, why give them the benefit of the doubt on anything?
Click to expand...
No real reason to send them other than the fact that the 9-year old is really enjoying it... we are contemplating holding them back the final three days and eating the entry fees.  

We thought a church of this size and local stature would have their ish together.  From the literature they provided it sounded like everything was going to be on the up and up but so far it's the parents that are effing it all up.  We'll see.

 
nirad3 said:
No real reason to send them other than the fact that the 9-year old is really enjoying it... we are contemplating holding them back the final three days and eating the entry fees.  

We thought a church of this size and local stature would have their ish together.  From the literature they provided it sounded like everything was going to be on the up and up but so far it's the parents that are effing it all up.  We'll see.
Click to expand...
I really just don’t get why organizations don’t take this more seriously. Having a camp at all is questionable. Doing it without taking the appropriate precautions is insanity.

 
GroveDiesel said:
I really just don’t get why organizations don’t take this more seriously. Having a camp at all is questionable. Doing it without taking the appropriate precautions is insanity.
Click to expand...
The camp itself seems to be doing things as "right" as they can be.  It's the stupid anti-mask parents coming to get their kids that are making things sketchy.  

 
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