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Bernie Haters for Bernie

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3 hours ago, Gopher State said:

I am a big Bloomberg supporter, but if Bernie is the candidate i will vote Trump.  I feel Bernie will destroy our economy with his social programs.

In your heart of hearts do you believe if Sanders is president that a single-payer healthcare system becomes inevitable? Have you seen what it's been like the last 30 years+ to get anything meaningful through congress? It's going to be a fight to the death. I'd argue that much of what he's proposing has little chance to become law in our lifetimes. At best we'll get minor enhancements to the current system and protections to current programs like social security and medicare. This nonsense that he's going to get in there and we're going to turn into a system like Venezuela is dishonest fear-mongering meant to weaken his candidacy. I find it a little disheartening that some of the smarter guys on the forum are perpetuating this myth.

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22 minutes ago, Joe Mammy said:

Does Bernie golf? I've scoured the web but cannot find a definitive answer.

I can see him being more of a pickleball guy. Think of the tax dollar savings!

In high school he was a basketball player and track. Did pretty well too, though not a star.

 

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1 minute ago, Nipsey said:

In your heart of hearts do you believe if Sanders is president that a single-payer healthcare system becomes inevitable? Have you seen what it's been like the last 30 years+ to get anything meaningful through congress? It's going to be a fight to the death. I'd argue that much of what he's proposing has little chance to become law in our lifetimes. At best we'll get minor enhancements to the current system and protections to current programs life social security and medicare. This nonsense that he's going to get in there and we're going to turn into a system like Venezuela is dishonest fear-mongering meant to weaken his candidacy. I find it a little disheartening that some of the smarter guys on the forum are perpetuating this myth.

This is correct.

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1 minute ago, Nipsey said:

In your heart of hearts do you believe if Sanders is president that a single-payer healthcare system becomes inevitable? Have you seen what it's been like the last 30 years+ to get anything meaningful through congress? It's going to be a fight to the death. I'd argue that much of what he's proposing has little chance to become law in our lifetimes. At best we'll get minor enhancements to the current system and protections to current programs life social security and medicare. This nonsense that he's going to get in there and we're going to turn into a system like Venezuela is dishonest fear-mongering meant to weaken his candidacy. I find it a little disheartening that some of the smarter guys on the forum are perpetuating this myth.

It's all moot because he can't beat Trump.

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6 minutes ago, Nipsey said:

 I find it a little disheartening that some of the smarter guys on the forum are perpetuating this myth.

More than a little. Sometimes some people over use the word 'unbelievable'.  Doubling down on a post in a separate thread. I am stunned how many people I find intelligent and reasonable on so many matters...  I still can't quite believe it.  

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11 minutes ago, Joe Mammy said:

Remarkable first time voter turnout in Nevada. If that continues...

Just remember which party is most afraid of extra voters.

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1 minute ago, Leroy Hoard said:

Just remember which party is most afraid of extra voters.

Especially very young first timers. 

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34 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

It's all moot because he can't beat Trump.

He's beating him head-to-head right now.  This could change but "can't" is certainly wrong.

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I am not a Bernie hater, but he would be my 5th choice. 

Answers to a few questions:

How are you reconciling yourself to this development? 

I don't think his nomination is as inevitable as people are discussing. Bernie is going to do better in caucus states, and in less diverse states. The early states are up his alley. The race will be shaped by how quickly people start to drop out. I don't think any other candidates are likely to endorse him, so people dropping out will hurt him.

What do you want to see the other Democratic candidates do? 

Bloomberg - Drop out. 

Warren - Drop out.

Buttigieg - drop out. 

Klobuchar - She is my top choice, but probably drop out.

Biden - announce if nominated you will pick Klobuchar as VP and put Buttigieg and Yang into your cabinet. 

What will you do this fall to help him win?

I was planning to volunteer a lot this election cycle. I can't see myself volunteering for the Sanders campaign. I will probably volunteer for the local democratic party office or a state level candidate.

 

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On 2/7/2020 at 8:38 PM, Grace Under Pressure said:

It’s going to be Bernie, and it should be Bernie, and here’s why. It’s time to be done with Republican Lite. That includes Hillary and Biden. It’s the President’s role to set the tone. So just because M4A may not pass, it’s the right thing to strive for. Bernie has the right vision, he’s aspirational, and a good guy. That’s what we need. Not some centrist version of what the Republicans are already about. I’m pushing all my chips in with Bernie and I hope when the time comes you are all with me and let’s get rid of this dastardly administration and the lies and the filth.

I landed here a few weeks back. Hoping more and more can get on board.

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20 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

He's beating him head-to-head right now.  This could change but "can't" is certainly wrong.

I wasn't aware that Trump was running as a Democrat :)

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Just now, JohnnyU said:

I wasn't aware that Trump was running as a Democrat :)

Don't worry, he's not.  He is running as a populist though.  Bernie is going to take some of that vote from him.

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2 hours ago, Thunderlips said:

  FL is much more of a "Lucy pulling the football away at the last second" state than OH. I think OH is pretty solidly red.  FL is a weird one....that just always SEEMS to break Right at the proper time.

I think Ohio can be flipped. FL a little tougher but if he can get the Latino vote out, you never know. 

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12 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I’ll vote for Bernie over Trump for two main reasons:

1. The most important issue to me is preserving our democracy rather than falling into a dictatorship. I don’t think Bernie will use the DOJ to harass his opponents and protect his allies. I don’t think he’ll attack the media by calling them the enemy of the people. I don’t think he’ll appoint family members to positions of power. I don’t think he’ll politicize our intelligence agencies.

2. Even if I’m wrong and Bernie does try to do those kinds of things, he’ll have to start from scratch. It takes time to replace all Senate-confirmed positions with Acting lackeys. It takes time to weed out all executive-branch personnel who are loyal to the Constitution. Trump has a huge head start in damaging our democratic norms and institutions while Bernie is years away, at best, from getting to a similar place.

Trump and Bernie are both terrible candidates, IMO, but Bernie is far less terrible. It’s not really close. I’ll vote for him if no third-party candidate attracts me.

This but I would add that as much as I disagree with Bernie his platform is what he thinks is best for Americans, particularly those with the least amount of resources and influence.  Trump wanted to be POTUS because of his ego and to enrich himself and his family. Possibly some other "secret" reasons too.  I don't think Trump cares about any American that isn't helping him make money or giving him more power. 

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2 hours ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

I am not a Bernie hater, but he would be my 5th choice. 

Answers to a few questions:

How are you reconciling yourself to this development? 

I don't think his nomination is as inevitable as people are discussing. Bernie is going to do better in caucus states, and in less diverse states. The early states are up his alley. The race will be shaped by how quickly people start to drop out. I don't think any other candidates are likely to endorse him, so people dropping out will hurt him.

What do you want to see the other Democratic candidates do? 

Bloomberg - Drop out. 

Warren - Drop out.

Buttigieg - drop out. 

Klobuchar - She is my top choice, but probably drop out.

Biden - announce if nominated you will pick Klobuchar as VP and put Buttigieg and Yang into your cabinet. 

What will you do this fall to help him win?

I was planning to volunteer a lot this election cycle. I can't see myself volunteering for the Sanders campaign. I will probably volunteer for the local democratic party office or a state level candidate.

 

Why should anyone drop out to help senile, hair-sniffing, fibber Joe Biden?

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3 hours ago, Nipsey said:

In your heart of hearts do you believe if Sanders is president that a single-payer healthcare system becomes inevitable? Have you seen what it's been like the last 30 years+ to get anything meaningful through congress? It's going to be a fight to the death. I'd argue that much of what he's proposing has little chance to become law in our lifetimes. At best we'll get minor enhancements to the current system and protections to current programs like social security and medicare. This nonsense that he's going to get in there and we're going to turn into a system like Venezuela is dishonest fear-mongering meant to weaken his candidacy. I find it a little disheartening that some of the smarter guys on the forum are perpetuating this myth.

You aren't wrong but the upside vs the downside is not worth it and I'm not talking about becoming Venezuela.

Upside- Bernie is elected POTUS and has problems getting through the big tickets on his agenda, loses some support of congressional democrats in the process and fractures the party further.  This seems like the best case scenario right now.

vs Downside of not being a good candidate to beat Trump (what I believe), losing, and the Dems losing house seats on top of that (worst case fear).  

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1 hour ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Why should anyone drop out to help senile, hair-sniffing, fibber Joe Biden?

Biden looks like he will finish 2nd in Nevada and likely will win SC. I am not sure anyone else is positioned to take it forward. 

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3 hours ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

Biden looks like he will finish 2nd in Nevada and likely will win SC. I am not sure anyone else is positioned to take it forward. 

See this is exactly why I'm not optimistic that anyone will be able to take Bernie down. Everyone talking about how this candidate should drop out, or endorse someone else, or join forces with another campaign, etc. is assigning way too much agency to the remaining candidates. If one of them truly were strong enough to emerge as the sole anti-Bernie alternative, we wouldn't be arguing over who should endorse who. The problem is that they're all flawed, and so the other people look at each of them and think, "Why should I drop out in favor of that schmoe?" Meanwhile, Bernie is flawed, too, but his base gives him enough of a floor (in terms of both votes and money) that he can outlast all of the others.

I'm not saying Bernie is inevitable, but outside of Biden displaying heretofore unobserved political strength, I have a hard time seeing anyone overtake him.

 

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This guy gets it:

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The question of whether a Bernie nomination hurts downballot Dems is complicated and very uncertain right now. BUT... Acting ashamed of your party's nominee because they're farther from the center than you is very bad politics, and something Republicans NEVER do. /1

Republicans have all kinds of incredibly unpopular positions - tax cuts for the rich, cutting off insurance - but they all agree that conservatism is awesome and everyone should embrace it. Imagine if Democrats acted the same way about liberalism. /2

I'm far from convinced that nominating Bernie gives us the best chance to win. But I am 100-percent certain that nominating Bernie and then spending the next nine months pissing all over him will give us the worst of all possible worlds.

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7 minutes ago, zftcg said:

This guy gets it:

I'm far from convinced that nominating Bernie gives us the best chance to win. But I am 100-percent certain that nominating Bernie and then spending the next nine months pissing all over him will give us the worst of all possible worlds.

He’s spot on about the Republicans being way more in lock-step than Dems. They’re willing to get in line, usually with the Supreme Court being the ultimate rationalization of it all.

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2 minutes ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

He’s spot on about the Republicans being way more in lock-step than Dems. They’re willing to get in line, usually with the Supreme Court being the ultimate rationalization of it all.

Yes, although to be fair, if a month before the election a recording comes out of Bernie bragging about sexual assault, I would hope that Dems do disown him. There's something we can learn from Republicans, but I also don't want to overlearn it.

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A couple more thoughts about Bernie, one positive, two concerning.

First, the positive: I've long had a theory that populism is always and everywhere underrated as a force in US elections. The first campaign I ever followed was in 1988 (I was 15). I remembered hearing that Dukakis' closing message in that campaign ("The people vs. the powerful") really scared the Bush campaign and helped tighten the race at least a little. I have no idea if that's actually true -- Bush won by 8 points, so maybe he was on track to win by double digits? -- but regardless, I filed that fact away. In the subsequent three decades, there was never a clear test case of this hypothesis, but what evidence did emerge seemed to support it. There was Perot in 1992, Gore's strong closing in 2000 (he basically did enough to win if not for the butterfly ballot), Obama's campaign against Romney as a plutocrat in 2012. Anyway, all of that led up to 2016, when Trump's genuinely populist message carried him to the White House. All of which is to say that Bernie's populism could be a hidden strength that the media -- which tends to vastly overstate the support of Bloomberg-style centrism -- may be missing. 

Now for the two concerns: The first is whether Bernie will be able to -- or wants to -- achieve the party unity necessary to win the election. I've gotten mixed signals on that. I've definitely seen lots of statements indicating he wants to build a broad-based movement. I also recognize that tweaking the Democratic Establishment is a big part of his brand. On the other hand, I really do worry about what happens if moderate Dems start abandoning ship, particularly if officeholders feel like they need to preserve their own chances at his expense. So it may be one of those things where he needs to find the happy medium.

Second is the kind of statements he made on "60 Minutes" yesterday, where he seemed to praise Castro. Yes, they weren't as bad in context, and no, I don't think he wants to turn the US into Cuba, but it gets at one of my biggest fears about Bernie: while I like that he's true to himself and doesn't endlessly shade his statements based on the politics of the moment, his complete unwillingness to "play the game" sometimes makes him seem hopelessly naive. A presidential candidate has to know that even putting yourself in a situation where people think you're praising Castro is going to damage your chances, and I worry that Bernie will keep making these kinds of mistakes.

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Another Bernie skeptic advising cautious optimism.

Quote

Since the polls closed in Nevada yesterday, activists and donors have worried that (a) Bernie is now our de facto nominee, and (b) this makes a Trump re-elect inevitable.

Believe me, I’ve had the same worry. Emotionally, it’s been infuriating that Trump and his allies have manipulated the process to pick their preferred opponent. Also, I have personally experienced the rage of Bernie’s more distasteful bros. Nonetheless, a cold-eyed review of the data indicates that (a) it is still possible for a safer candidate to win the primary, and (b) while he is not our best bet, Bernie is a viable general-election candidate. Thus, regardless of the ultimate primary result, the case remains for all of us to continue to invest in anti-Trump electoral efforts over the next 254 days: Trump is an existential threat, and he can be beaten.

 

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On 2/23/2020 at 10:13 AM, Nipsey said:

In your heart of hearts do you believe if Sanders is president that a single-payer healthcare system becomes inevitable? Have you seen what it's been like the last 30 years+ to get anything meaningful through congress? It's going to be a fight to the death. I'd argue that much of what he's proposing has little chance to become law in our lifetimes. At best we'll get minor enhancements to the current system and protections to current programs like social security and medicare. This nonsense that he's going to get in there and we're going to turn into a system like Venezuela is dishonest fear-mongering meant to weaken his candidacy. I find it a little disheartening that some of the smarter guys on the forum are perpetuating this myth.

No myth Bernie wants a single payer system, I don’t , why vote for someone who doesn’t share my values.  As someone who is close to retirement Bernie offers 0 things to improve my life.  I have great health insurance, I paid my student loans off with no help from anyone.   Not interested in paying higher taxes, sorry he offers nothing for me.

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4 minutes ago, Gopher State said:

No myth Bernie wants a single payer system, I don’t , why vote for someone who doesn’t share my values.  As someone who is close to retirement Bernie offers 0 things to improve my life.  I have great health insurance, I paid my student loans off with no help from anyone.   Not interested in paying higher taxes, sorry he offers nothing for me.

What about for your kids and grandchildren?

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13 minutes ago, Gopher State said:

No myth Bernie wants a single payer system, I don’t , why vote for someone who doesn’t share my values.  As someone who is close to retirement Bernie offers 0 things to improve my life.  I have great health insurance, I paid my student loans off with no help from anyone.   Not interested in paying higher taxes, sorry he offers nothing for me.

is your vote driven purely by self-interest?

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1 hour ago, Gopher State said:

No myth Bernie wants a single payer system, I don’t , why vote for someone who doesn’t share my values.  As someone who is close to retirement Bernie offers 0 things to improve my life.  I have great health insurance, I paid my student loans off with no help from anyone.   Not interested in paying higher taxes, sorry he offers nothing for me.

You understand how this works, right?  What you pay a little more taxes, you don't pay ridiculous deductibles and premiums.

Also...if Hillary put a plan to M4A and she was going to pay for it by reducing the military budget, making corporations pay the effective tax rate and reduce subsidies that are absolutely not warranted, how would you react?

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2 hours ago, zftcg said:

Now for the two concerns: The first is whether Bernie will be able to -- or wants to -- achieve the party unity necessary to win the election. I've gotten mixed signals on that. I've definitely seen lots of statements indicating he wants to build a broad-based movement. I also recognize that tweaking the Democratic Establishment is a big part of his brand. On the other hand, I really do worry about what happens if moderate Dems start abandoning ship, particularly if officeholders feel like they need to preserve their own chances at his expense. So it may be one of those things where he needs to find the happy medium.

Second is the kind of statements he made on "60 Minutes" yesterday, where he seemed to praise Castro. Yes, they weren't as bad in context, and no, I don't think he wants to turn the US into Cuba, but it gets at one of my biggest fears about Bernie: while I like that he's true to himself and doesn't endlessly shade his statements based on the politics of the moment, his complete unwillingness to "play the game" sometimes makes him seem hopelessly naive. A presidential candidate has to know that even putting yourself in a situation where people think you're praising Castro is going to damage your chances, and I worry that Bernie will keep making these kinds of mistakes.

I think both of your concerns are valid but I don't think he will waver one bit in his message.  I think the question becomes whether that will sink his chances - if he were running against anyone other than Trump then I would say yes, but despite Trumps unwavering base he's vastly unpopular with the rest of us.  I think at the end of the day one guy is likable and the other isn't - as stupid and simplistic as that sounds I think it plays a factor in it.  People hated Hillary, she was totally unlikable even if you agreed with most of her policies.

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Just now, AAABatteries said:

 I think at the end of the day one guy is likable and the other isn't 

The MAGA folks think Trump is likable.

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Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

The MAGA folks think Trump is likable.

Ha - nice try, I'm not getting banned today so for whoever drew 2/24 in the pool you are out of luck, sucka!

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16 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Ha - nice try, I'm not getting banned today so for whoever drew 2/24 in the pool you are out of luck, sucka!

Reported to mods for promoting gambling and implying that your opponents are homosexual prostitutes

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3 hours ago, zftcg said:

I've definitely seen lots of statements indicating he wants to build a broad-based movement. I also recognize that tweaking the Democratic Establishment is a big part of his brand. On the other hand, I really do worry about what happens if moderate Dems start abandoning ship, particularly if officeholders feel like they need to preserve their own chances at his expense. So it may be one of those things where he needs to find the happy medium.

Tweaking the establishment is a big part of his brand - Democratic or otherwise. That's what he's about, sticking up for the little guy, the individual, against institutions. It gives him wide appeal but also puts him at odds with the influential and powerful. The experiment we seem we're about to run is, will that wide appeal outweigh the influence of the powerful/wealthy? Populism vs. plutocracy. Will Bernie pull enough away from Trump's populist pool to offset the wealthy that will have to throw their weight behind Trump? I like Sanders's chances.

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3 hours ago, Gopher State said:

No myth Bernie wants a single payer system, I don’t , why vote for someone who doesn’t share my values.  As someone who is close to retirement Bernie offers 0 things to improve my life.  I have great health insurance, I paid my student loans off with no help from anyone.   Not interested in paying higher taxes, sorry he offers nothing for me.

What about the future of our country, kids, generations?  Do you want to make choices that can benefit them?

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7 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

What about for your kids and grandchildren?

 

4 hours ago, JAA said:

What about the future of our country, kids, generations?  Do you want to make choices that can benefit them?

 

You dont think a parent or grandparent's ability to accumulate wealth and retire has any effect on the children and grandchildren?  Good grief. 

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I will hold my nose and vote Bernie.

I expect a Trump win, zero chance of the senate flipping, and a non zero chance of the house flipping. 

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On 2/23/2020 at 2:15 PM, Navin Johnson said:

I think Ohio can be flipped. FL a little tougher but if he can get the Latino vote out, you never know. 

Ohio could flip if Pete or Amy were the nominee. Maybe Bloomberg. Biden is akin to Hillary and the progressive candidates will turn off too many in the suburbs they need to win. 

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24 minutes ago, tonydead said:

 

 

You dont think a parent or grandparent's ability to accumulate wealth and retire has any effect on the children and grandchildren?  Good grief. 

You should be able to reread that exchange and figure out the point being made.  I have faith in you.

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10 hours ago, tonydead said:

 

 

You dont think a parent or grandparent's ability to accumulate wealth and retire has any effect on the children and grandchildren?  Good grief. 

Except they are currently accumulating wealth in place of their children and grandchildren. It is essentially saying "isn't it good that you might be able to grovel for an inheritance some day, because we have removed many opportunities for you to become successful yourself because more money for us". 

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16 minutes ago, huthut said:

Except they are currently accumulating wealth in place of their children and grandchildren. It is essentially saying "isn't it good that you might be able to grovel for an inheritance some day, because we have removed many opportunities for you to become successful yourself because more money for us". 

:no:. Wow. This is an easily demonstrably false talking point. Its a fact the parent in the next 4 years is going to have 1000s of times greater of an impact than which president wins the White House. 

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19 hours ago, zftcg said:

Now for the two concerns: The first is whether Bernie will be able to -- or wants to -- achieve the party unity necessary to win the election. I've gotten mixed signals on that. I've definitely seen lots of statements indicating he wants to build a broad-based movement. I also recognize that tweaking the Democratic Establishment is a big part of his brand. On the other hand, I really do worry about what happens if moderate Dems start abandoning ship, particularly if officeholders feel like they need to preserve their own chances at his expense. So it may be one of those things where he needs to find the happy medium.

If I'm dusting off my crystal ball, I think it's pretty safe to say, if Bernie were to become President, it would be the closest thing we'd ever see to an "independent" in the White House in my lifetime.  I have no idea how that'd play, but it would be interesting to watch.  I've said for a while now, if my choice ends up between him and Trump, I will happily vote for him because IMO it's a significant upgrade in the morality department.  I won't agree with a good number of his positions and I don't believe his positions will be implemented as described.  I don't think there is a 10% chance he gets any of them the way he describes.  My vote would definitely be forward thinking for my kids and grandkids.  I seem to be moving towards that mindset as I get older rather than the more "me, myself, and  I".  I just can't get to that level.

19 hours ago, zftcg said:

Second is the kind of statements he made on "60 Minutes" yesterday, where he seemed to praise Castro. Yes, they weren't as bad in context, and no, I don't think he wants to turn the US into Cuba, but it gets at one of my biggest fears about Bernie: while I like that he's true to himself and doesn't endlessly shade his statements based on the politics of the moment, his complete unwillingness to "play the game" sometimes makes him seem hopelessly naive. A presidential candidate has to know that even putting yourself in a situation where people think you're praising Castro is going to damage your chances, and I worry that Bernie will keep making these kinds of mistakes.

This second one is less of an issue for me because even if he said things perfectly, they would absolutely be twisted by the GOP machine.  The GOP machine is about creating a false narrative anymore.  They abandoned the alternative narrative years ago when they say that their narrative wasn't a winning one.  It's the reason you don't see an alternate healthcare plan.  It's the reason you don't see an alternative to the Dem plan for helping individuals compete in the global market etc.  So, this was always going to be an issue regardless of what Bernie says.

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Speaking of. Where is the president's health plan? Is it just going to be attacking the Democrats plan? 

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Look, I'm not going to lie. In spite of what I said in my original post, I'm still nervous as hell at the prospect of going into the general election with Bernie. Just take a look at my posts in the Florida Politics thread to see how I'm reacting to this Castro controversy.

Still, one thing I won't do is despair if Bernie wins the nomination and assume all is lost. So I'm going to keep posting encouraging news and analyses.

GET A GRIP, BERNIE BED-WETTERS: HIS MESSAGE AND MEDIA MACHINE COULD BE POTENT AGAINST TRUMP

Quote

Everything about Sanders—his ideas, his stubborn dogma, his sometimes-kooky supporters, his contempt for greenroom culture and the party circuit—is completely foreign to the intellectual and cultural fabric of Washington. In that universe, the claim that Sanders is unelectable is more or less gospel. The same Democrats who were assured of Hillary Clinton’s victory are now starting to worry about a Goldwater or McGovern-style Electoral College wipeout with Sanders atop the ticket. If they were so inclined, the bed-wetters could easily Google a year of polls showing Sanders beating Trump in hypothetical head-to-head matchups. A Texas Lyceum poll just this week showed Sanders performing better against Trump in Texas than any Democrat, losing by just three points. That’s on top of a raft of polls showing Sanders beating Trump back those precious Upper Midwest states of Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. These polls aren’t totally hypothetical, either: Sanders boasts near universal Name ID. Most voters know who Sanders is and what he stands for—and they’re still choosing him, whether they actually like him or just because his name isn’t Donald Trump. The president and his advisers are starting to notice, according to recent stories in the New York Times and Daily Beast. Both outlets reported in recent weeks that some Trump advisers are worried about Sanders’s strengths—his populist appeal, perceived authenticity, and his durable popularity with the same white non-college voters who voted for Trump. “I think he’s tough in places where people are making $12 an hour,” Trump campaign manager Brad Parscale recently told CBS News, who said the media is underestimating his appeal. Trump himself has started asking his team about Sanders’s polling performance in key battleground states, specifically Pennsylvania, the Daily Beast reported.

 

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17 minutes ago, Mile High said:

Speaking of. Where is the president's health plan? Is it just going to be attacking the Democrats plan? 

See the post just above yours....the last paragraph :hifive: 

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16 minutes ago, The Commish said:

This second one is less of an issue for me because even if he said things perfectly, they would absolutely be twisted by the GOP machine.  The GOP machine is about creating a false narrative anymore.  They abandoned the alternative narrative years ago when they say that their narrative wasn't a winning one.  It's the reason you don't see an alternate healthcare plan.  It's the reason you don't see an alternative to the Dem plan for helping individuals compete in the global market etc.  So, this was always going to be an issue regardless of what Bernie says.

I keep hearing this argument and I don't buy it at all. Consider an analogy to corruption. Republicans tried to tar Obama as corrupt, but he was remarkably scandal-free, and they were left chasing ghosts over the IRS controversy and Fast and Furious. They tried to do the same with Hillary, and the fact that she was under an FBI investigation (even if she was never charged) did real damage. By this logic, though, the Democrats could nominate an actual criminal and it wouldn't matter because "Republicans are going to accuse any Democrat of being corrupt."

Point being, accusations against a candidate have more salience when the candidate seems to validate them. Democrats accused Romney of being an out-of-touch plutocrat, and then he got caught on tape talking about the 47 percent. Bernie has just given his opponents a very memorable hook to hang the "socialist" label on. 

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39 minutes ago, zftcg said:

I keep hearing this argument and I don't buy it at all. Consider an analogy to corruption. Republicans tried to tar Obama as corrupt, but he was remarkably scandal-free, and they were left chasing ghosts over the IRS controversy and Fast and Furious. They tried to do the same with Hillary, and the fact that she was under an FBI investigation (even if she was never charged) did real damage. By this logic, though, the Democrats could nominate an actual criminal and it wouldn't matter because "Republicans are going to accuse any Democrat of being corrupt."

Point being, accusations against a candidate have more salience when the candidate seems to validate them. Democrats accused Romney of being an out-of-touch plutocrat, and then he got caught on tape talking about the 47 percent. Bernie has just given his opponents a very memorable hook to hang the "socialist" label on. 

I have an alternative theory that I personally think explains the data much better.  Accusations against a candidate have more salience when people already dislike that candidate.  Accusations against a candidate that is well-liked have far less ability to damage him or her.  That's why Trump was able to withstand multiple scandals, all of which were true.  Because his base loves him and don't care.  And that's why Bernie will withstand attacks much better than Hillary did.  Bernie has a very loyal fan base to whom he can do no wrong. 

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44 minutes ago, zftcg said:
1 hour ago, The Commish said:

This second one is less of an issue for me because even if he said things perfectly, they would absolutely be twisted by the GOP machine.  The GOP machine is about creating a false narrative anymore.  They abandoned the alternative narrative years ago when they say that their narrative wasn't a winning one.  It's the reason you don't see an alternate healthcare plan.  It's the reason you don't see an alternative to the Dem plan for helping individuals compete in the global market etc.  So, this was always going to be an issue regardless of what Bernie says.

I keep hearing this argument and I don't buy it at all. Consider an analogy to corruption. Republicans tried to tar Obama as corrupt, but he was remarkably scandal-free, and they were left chasing ghosts over the IRS controversy and Fast and Furious. They tried to do the same with Hillary, and the fact that she was under an FBI investigation (even if she was never charged) did real damage. By this logic, though, the Democrats could nominate an actual criminal and it wouldn't matter because "Republicans are going to accuse any Democrat of being corrupt."

Point being, accusations against a candidate have more salience when the candidate seems to validate them. Democrats accused Romney of being an out-of-touch plutocrat, and then he got caught on tape talking about the 47 percent. Bernie has just given his opponents a very memorable hook to hang the "socialist" label on. 

Seems we are talking about two different things.  I am talking about the narrative and why it will always exist.  You seem to be talking about the concern over the success of the narrative.  Success of the narrative will always depend largely on the people and who they tend to believe.  Will they take the time to understand the context and evaluate or will they settle for the soundbyte and be done with it?  It's up in the air at the moment.  I do see tendencies forming in this area though.  It seems to me, the younger people are, the more they are verifying and looking for context.  They older they get, the more they settle for the soundbyte in a judgemental fashion.

I should note, that I don't see this trend only in politics.  I see it in everyday life.  It's like the older people get the less interested they seem to be in learning anymore.  

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21 hours ago, zftcg said:

 

 

Second is the kind of statements he made on "60 Minutes" yesterday, where he seemed to praise Castro. Yes, they weren't as bad in context, and no, I don't think he wants to turn the US into Cuba, but it gets at one of my biggest fears about Bernie: while I like that he's true to himself and doesn't endlessly shade his statements based on the politics of the moment, his complete unwillingness to "play the game" sometimes makes him seem hopelessly naive. A presidential candidate has to know that even putting yourself in a situation where people think you're praising Castro is going to damage your chances, and I worry that Bernie will keep making these kinds of mistakes.

Following up on this point, Bernie is now doubling down on the Castro comments. Maybe his instincts are right here, and in the Trump era you're always worse off apologizing. But I still think he could have done more to emphasize his overall opposition to Castro rather than dig in on Cuba's successful literacy initiative (which apparently isn't even true)

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