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⚽ Soccer Match-day Thread (5 Viewers)

McBokonon said:
Pretty solid choke job by the gunners here. That first goal was just a total brain implosion by Leno. I’m still fairly new to following this - Does he make mistakes like that a lot?
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In fairness, that goal was scored by a guy who should have been sent off a few minutes earlier.

 
This VAR stuff needs to be fixed. I mean, I certainly don't mind it coming off the board, but come on. That was just a good goal and this stuff is nonsense now.

 
I need the Liverpool clean sheet for the FFA EPL League but that was really terrible. It was basically a pinky if it was even that. 

 
Robbie just made a great suggestion. Change the rule to where the foot is. It makes sense because I don't care if a finger is offside. And that makes it MUCH easier to draw the line. If a foot is millimeters off, I'm ok with disallowing that.

 
gianmarco said:
This VAR stuff needs to be fixed. I mean, I certainly don't mind it coming off the board, but come on. That was just a good goal and this stuff is nonsense now.
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I agree.  It is not what VAR was suppose to fix in its original intention.  Every one agrees it has gone too far.  I want bad calls fixed, not calls like this :(

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EM-IfE-U4AAmgbg?format=jpg&name=large

The only thing I can hope is that the out cry is so strong from fans and media alike, that maybe something will change in the rules.

 
NewlyRetired said:
I agree.  It is not what VAR was suppose to fix in its original intention.  Every one agrees it has gone too far.  I want bad calls fixed, not calls like this :(

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EM-IfE-U4AAmgbg?format=jpg&name=large

The only thing I can hope is that the out cry is so strong from fans and media alike, that maybe something will change in the rules.
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I know it will never happen because the sport is predisposed to favor defense but I would love to see a change in the rules where all body parts are ignored for offside except the feet and a player is onside if either of his feet are level with either of the defenders feet.

 
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NewlyRetired said:
I know it will never happen because the sport is predisposed to favor defense but I would love to see a change in the rules where all body parts are ignored for offside except the feet and a player is onside if either of his feet are level with either of the defenders feet.
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gianmarco said:
Robbie just made a great suggestion. Change the rule to where the foot is. It makes sense because I don't care if a finger is offside. And that makes it MUCH easier to draw the line. If a foot is millimeters off, I'm ok with disallowing that.
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Robbie's idea, I believe is far stricter than mine as I think he wants both feet to be at least level with the defender.  But that being said, I would welcome even Robbie's idea in this age of VAR.

I just hope they can make what ever change is needed with out having to wait for FIFA to change the offside law because that might take decades.

 
NewlyRetired said:
Robbie's idea, I believe is far stricter than mine as I think he wants both feet to be at least level with the defender.  But that being said, I would welcome even Robbie's idea in this age of VAR.

I just hope they can make what ever change is needed with out having to wait for FIFA to change the offside law because that might take decades.
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I would prefer Robbie's version. If 1 foot is behind the defenders feet, that's offside to me.

 
Listening to the talk this morning, found out some interesting tidbits about VAR and especially the offside calls..

1) The lines shown to the public are made thicker for our benefit and the lines the VAR guy sees are much thinner so they look more definitive

2) there is a margin of error on the lines of 13 cm.  YES CM.  That is huge when you are calling off by an armpit or a heal.

VAR has been ok with the calls outside of offside.  But with the offside calls they have taken it out of the ref/linesman's hands and asked VAR to legislate it in ways the naked eye cant.  That is not the intention of VAR.  

 
gianmarco said:
I would prefer Robbie's version. If 1 foot is behind the defenders feet, that's offside to me.
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Used to be I could stand with 1 foot in my half and 1 in the opposing and I would be considered onside.  Don't really know how they would call it now.

MLS does it right.  They use VAR for obvious errors including offside.  In the MLS all of these would stand as called since a lineman can not see that a half a toe was offside.  Would be considered even.  EPL needs to stop using VAR to legislate and get back to it being an ASSISTANT.

NewlyRetired said:
I understand. 

I know I am on an island as a soccer fan in that I want the offense to finally get some advantages in a sport that is already so hard to score in.
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FIFA used to talk about encouraging more scoring.  That's why even used to be onside.  IMO these offside calls based on incremental distances that can only be seen on a freeze frame with lines drawn goes against all that. 

 
I like VAR overall, but it does need some tweaking.

The goal/no goal reviews obviously stay.

If the margin of error for each line is 13cm then make the rule that the offensive player has to be 26cm (10 inches) off to have VAR flag it.  i.e. it's CERTAIN.  As Newly Retired suggests, give the O the edge.

Get rid of "fouls in the buildup" nonsense.  If the ref misses it, he misses it.

Keep the "any handball in the box leading up to a goal" piece.  Gets rid of the subjective element.

PKs there's probably no way to lose the judgement call.  But I'd still rather have them reviewed. VAR gets them right more often than ref IMO.

 
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Dinsy Ejotuz said:
I like VAR overall, but it does need some tweaking.

The goal/no goal reviews obviously stay.

If the margin of error for each line is 13cm then make the rule that the offensive player has to be 26cm (10 inches) off to have VAR flag it.  i.e. it's CERTAIN.  As Newly Retired suggests, give the O the edge.

Get rid of "fouls in the buildup" nonsense.  If the ref misses it, he misses it.

Keep the "any handball in the box leading up to a goal" piece.  Gets rid of the subjective element.

PKs there's probably no way to lose the judgement call.  But I'd still rather have them reviewed. VAR gets them right more often than ref IMO.
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I can agree with this.  And your offside suggestion isnt bad.  At the end of the day it should also be subject to the clear and obvious designations like the rest of them.  A toe or armpit is not clear and obvious.

 
B Maverick said:
Used to be I could stand with 1 foot in my half and 1 in the opposing and I would be considered onside.  Don't really know how they would call it now.

MLS does it right.  They use VAR for obvious errors including offside.  In the MLS all of these would stand as called since a lineman can not see that a half a toe was offside.  Would be considered even.  EPL needs to stop using VAR to legislate and get back to it being an ASSISTANT.

FIFA used to talk about encouraging more scoring.  That's why even used to be onside.  IMO these offside calls based on incremental distances that can only be seen on a freeze frame with lines drawn goes against all that. 
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:goodposting:

 
encaitar said:
Really?!  This can't be true.  That's more than 5 inches!
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That's what she said!!!

Rodney Marsh on Grumpy Pundits said it this morning and that he even checked it several times to make sure it was CM and not MM.    And yeah that is a big margin of error when talking half a foot.

 
B Maverick said:
Rodney Marsh on Grumpy Pundits said it this morning and that he even checked it several times to make sure it was CM and not MM.    And yeah that is a big margin of error when talking half a foot.
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I've seen several discussions the past few weeks where the main point is that the PL is using VAR as though the technology were perfect, when that is far from the case.  Drawing the lines and dots and stuff is foolish when the tech doesn't support the way they are using it.

Here's one explanation Gary Lineker tweeted out this past weekend.  https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1211607290903769088/photo/1

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I've seen several discussions the past few weeks where the main point is that the PL is using VAR as though the technology were perfect, when that is far from the case.  Drawing the lines and dots and stuff is foolish when the tech doesn't support the way they are using it.

Here's one explanation Gary Lineker tweeted out this past weekend.  https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1211607290903769088/photo/1
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:goodposting:  They did mention Lineker as having good info on it.

 
charvik said:
Relevant, for context:

"How VAR decisions have affected every Premier League club"

ETA: Wolves seems unluckier than most
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Interesting look.  But the inconsistency is also a problem.

VAR got this one wrong: "Penalty awarded (missed by Marcus Rashford) for foul on Daniel James by Ben Godfrey, 25th minute - FOR"
PK shouldn't have been given.

And this one "Goal for Sadio Mane given after originally ruled out for handball by Adam Lallana, 42nd minute - FOR"
They got it correct on Lallana but wrong overall since there was a handball by VVD (who played the ball to Lallana who shouldered it to Mane).

Not to mention David Luiz not seeing red for the studs up high boot into Kante this weekend

 
B Maverick said:
Interesting look.  But the inconsistency is also a problem.

VAR got this one wrong: "Penalty awarded (missed by Marcus Rashford) for foul on Daniel James by Ben Godfrey, 25th minute - FOR"
PK shouldn't have been given.

And this one "Goal for Sadio Mane given after originally ruled out for handball by Adam Lallana, 42nd minute - FOR"
They got it correct on Lallana but wrong overall since there was a handball by VVD (who played the ball to Lallana who shouldered it to Mane).

Not to mention David Luiz not seeing red for the studs up high boot into Kante this weekend
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I think the review linked is prior to the incidents above, but yeah, a review after the season, with beneficiaries/wrong results listed should probably be done by an impartial evaluator.

 
It almost seems like the FA don't mind the controversy. They can just scrap it after the season, and go back to claiming that their refs are getting 97% of all calls correct (or whatever ridiculous number they claimed).

I don't think VAR is the root cause, it is the rules, plus a combination of poor referee quality.

Other sports that are a lot faster has had issues with aging refs in the past, when they no longer can keep up. Maybe the answer is raising the salary and attract retiring elite players, that can actually keep up with the pace.

 
charvik said:
I think the review linked is prior to the incidents above, but yeah, a review after the season, with beneficiaries/wrong results listed should probably be done by an impartial evaluator.
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I copies those right out of the link so they are included.  But I agree, they def need to have it evaluated. They also need to review similar incidents from game to game to check their consistency.  I know no 2 plays are exactly alike, but why is this sliding tackle called studs up and this isnt? 

ETA, the lack of the on field ref checking the monitor to decide for themselves is asinine as well.  

 
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charvik said:
It almost seems like the FA don't mind the controversy. They can just scrap it after the season, and go back to claiming that their refs are getting 97% of all calls correct (or whatever ridiculous number they claimed).

I don't think VAR is the root cause, it is the rules, plus a combination of poor referee quality.

Other sports that are a lot faster has had issues with aging refs in the past, when they no longer can keep up. Maybe the answer is raising the salary and attract retiring elite players, that can actually keep up with the pace.
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Worked for the BCS for a long time....

Agreed that VAR itself isn't the cause.  The rules and the application of them is the issue. You are just changing interpretations from a guy in the middle of the action in full speed to a guy in a booth (or maybe van down by the river) using slo-mo replay to interpret the action. 

 
B Maverick said:
Worked for the BCS for a long time....

Agreed that VAR itself isn't the cause.  The rules and the application of them is the issue. You are just changing interpretations from a guy in the middle of the action in full speed to a guy in a booth (or maybe van down by the river) using slo-mo replay to interpret the action. 
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I thought the VAR folks are in a bunker somewhere close to Heathrow... either way, doesn't matter. I think slo-mo is great for TV, but bad for refereeing. You can almost spot a foul in every single passage of play if you really want to. It then becomes arbitrary and very subjective what a foul is, especially considering how the rules are written. I think elite (and not elite) players "feel" what is a foul, and what isn't, so maybe we just need to get rid of the old guys that can barely move up and down the pitch, and bring in the retired pros. I read somewhere that 1/5 of all pro players go "broke" after retiring...

ETA: I guess bringing in retired pros could cause more bias... meh, I'm glad I'm not getting paid to fail at this task.

 
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charvik said:
I thought the VAR folks are in a bunker somewhere close to Heathrow... either way, doesn't matter. I think slo-mo is great for TV, but bad for refereeing. You can almost spot a foul in every single passage of play if you really want to. It then becomes arbitrary and very subjective what a foul is, especially considering how the rules are written. I think elite (and not elite) players "feel" what is a foul, and what isn't, so maybe we just need to get rid of the old guys that can barely move up and down the pitch, and bring in the retired pros. I read somewhere that 1/5 of all pro players go "broke" after retiring...

ETA: I guess bringing in retired pros could cause more bias... meh, I'm glad I'm not getting paid to fail at this task.
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Yeah someplace by Heathrow, I was making a joke about a van down by the river.  Either way, they are in a central location, not at the stadium and watching a monitor.  

Plus, you have the ref with a feel for whats going on now not responsible for certain calls.  Has he been letting physical play go? or is he calling it very ticky tacky?  Derby or a mid table game? A ref back at HQ has a different feel for the action and is trying to call the game off a cold monitor with a different interpretation of the context of each foul.  The ref checking a monitor would help that stay consistent.

 
B Maverick said:
Yeah someplace by Heathrow, I was making a joke about a van down by the river.  Either way, they are in a central location, not at the stadium and watching a monitor.  

Plus, you have the ref with a feel for whats going on now not responsible for certain calls.  Has he been letting physical play go? or is he calling it very ticky tacky?  Derby or a mid table game? A ref back at HQ has a different feel for the action and is trying to call the game off a cold monitor with a different interpretation of the context of each foul.  The ref checking a monitor would help that stay consistent.
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Yeah, there's also the "clear and obvious error". Would you really hang out your buddy and criticize them in front of x million viewers unless they really got it wrong?

 
One thing that the VAR debate has caused is the fact that most of the English referees are absolute crap! Compare the standard of English leagues with the rest of Europe, it is absolutely laughable.

VAR becomes an easy excuse and decoy though...

 
Woke up to 2nd half of chel v Brighton etc starting, with CP in the starting lineup. First five minutes have been a disjointed mess. But cps in the starting 11...

 
The next 15 mins CP had 5 shots and forced 2 saves (should have done better with one just off the near post). And subbed out in the 65th. Hopefully as a precaution for his minor injury.

Once again, Mount just doesn't look for his teammates when he's around the box...had a couple opportunities to feed CP in better spots but didn't. CP and Willian both make those unselfish passes.

 
Coincidence that chel has been on the back foot since CP went out? Probably.

But bhas goal to tie things up in the 83rd is worth seeing. And they look likely to win things here in the last five.

Chelsea never look dominant to me this season. They look like a team that dangerous going forward that can punish on the counter, but never a team that will control and dictate the game to their favor through 90. 

 
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At least for a day or two, there's your goal of the decade.

Maybe coincidence re: Pulisic, but it seems to happen fairly often -- they're better with him on the field.

 
What is christian eriksen's thought process this year? Does he really think that basically not trying for 4 months is gonna make Real Madrid pony up for him?

And how are his teammates not just ripping into him at every opportunity? Not sure I've ever seen an elite athlete so clearly sandbagging for basically half a season. 

 
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JaxBill said:
yeah that arm was definitely extended to make himself bigger. would like an explanation 
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I really don't get any of this any more. Goofy offsides obsessed over despite enormous margin of error and subjectivity. I thought they decided hand balls were handballs...

 
TLEF316 said:
What is christian eriksen's thought process this year? Does he really think they basically not trying for 4 months is gonna make Real Madrid pony up for him?

And how are his teammates not just ripping into him at every opportunity? Not sure I've ever seen an elite athlete so clearly sandbagging for basically half a season. 
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It's weird.

In a vacuum it just looks like he's lost a gear. If that's not the case, lazing around is a unique way of elevating your brand

 
meanwhile Watford holding on by a thread

@OfficialFPL: Red card - KABASELE

Watford 2-1 Wolves (70 mins)

#FPL #WATWOL

 
NewlyRetired said:
Is it safe to assume the EPL can't change their VAR implementation mid season?

It continues to remove good goals every match day.  look at this offside call by VAR removing an Aston Villa goal, again by millimeters, which the VAR administrators  themselves has admitted falls into the systems margin of error.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENMlfsUXUAI3h6v?format=jpg&name=large
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Premier League 'could be stripped of VAR license' if they do not adopt IFAB protocol

Basically this is saying that clear and obvious should be applied to offside as well and that they are trying to get too detailed ("Forensic") in deciding offside when VAR isn't designed for that.  I guess IFAB agrees with most of us that drawing lines and trying to find any reason to deny a goal is not how its supposed to work.  

 
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