***2014 Baseball Hall of Fame Thread (1 Viewer)

[dparker713]

Thomas doesn't have much better numbers overall than Edgar, atleast on a rates basis. They're better, but not all that significantly. Feared hitter is an entirely BS argument. MVP votes were/are conducted by a largely ill-equipped electorate.

Now, Thomas does nearly double Edgar's innings in the field, but he still only played less than 6 seasons worth of defensive innings in a 19 year career.

 

[Raider Nation]

Really fine article by Verducci about Jack Morris and his HOF worthiness. Too long to post.

 

[The Ref]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7555836/an-open-letter-mlb-hall-fame-dwight-evans-rightful-place-cooperstown

Dwight Evans deserves in IMHO, Bill James as well.

 

[dparker713]

Verducci's argument is basically that Morris was the best of a mediocre lot of pitchers that debuted between arbitrary end points. Then he repurposes the same tired reasoning we've been hearing for years.

That article is embarrassing.

 

[Tau837]

Verducci's argument is basically that Morris was the best of a mediocre lot of pitchers that debuted between arbitrary end points. Then he repurposes the same tired reasoning we've been hearing for years.

That article is embarrassing.

From the article:

The problem with Morris' candidacy, however, is that he gave up so many hits and runs that you don't find the superior quality of pitching you typically associate with a Hall of Famer. ...Jack Morris deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, and he has my vote.

 

[Don Quixote]

Torre, Cox, and LaRussa in.

Thought Miller would join them.

 

[shadyridr]

Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Piazza, Thomas

I know most of those guys are considered steroid guys and wont get in but i think thats who deserves in. My predicition for actual results is biggio, glavine, maddux, piazza, thomas

I also think mussina and kent deserve to get in eventually. And cox, larussa, and torre probably also deserve to get in sooner or later.

3 for 3 so far!

 

[GroveDiesel]

My proposed fix for HOF voting (applies for all sports):

-Extend the time out of the sport to 7 years post involvement.

-Every player and manager appears on the ballot just one time. If 2/3 of voters vote yes, then you're in. If they vote no, then you're out for good.

The whole "first ballot" nonsense is eliminated, guys getting publicity campaigns to change their perception is out, trying to make points is out, holding off on one guy to approve another guy is out.

If 0 guys from a year get in, fine. If 15 guys from a year deserve it, fine.

The bottom line is that guys either belong or they don't. The way it's done now allows for all sorts of other ridiculous agendas and it's crap.

The only real negative would be where voters try to make a point and it is permanent. But I think that also puts a lot more pressure on voters to take it seriously and stop trying to make stupid points with their votes. Voting for or against Bonds in a one time up or down vote would either end up being viewed an an indictment to the entire era, or it would be viewed as an indictment on all those voters. But votes would have real consequences. Voters couldn't just rest easy knowing that future voters could easily cover up for their own stupidity or arrogance.

 

[dparker713]

Fairly amazing they passed over Miller again.

 

[Eephus]

The New Yorker's Roger Angell will receive this year's J. G. Taylor Spink Award for “meritorious contributions to baseball writing.” It's hard to argue with this one; Angell has captured the essence and the poetry of the game for a long time.

There are links to some of his columns at the bottom of this article.

 

[Tom Servo]

Bill Deane predicts only Greg Maddux will get in this year.

Money quote:

More than half of the 37 players who were listed on the 2013 ballot are not on the 2014 version:

Dale Murphy, who failed in his final attempt;

and 19 others (Bernie Williams, Kenny Lofton, Sandy Alomar, Jr., Julio Franco, David Wells, Steve Finley, Shawn Green, Aaron Sele, Jeff Cirillo, Royce Clayton, Jeff Conine, Roberto Hernandez, Ryan Klesko, Jose Mesa, Reggie Sanders, Mike Stanton, Todd Walker, Rondell White, and Woody Williams) who were dropped for failing to reach the 5%-cutoff.

These men collected just 177 votes in 2013, and the strong 2014 rookie class figures to amass many more than that. This means that most if not all of the 17 returnees are likely to drop down in the voting. There are a lot of new and returning candidates with Cooperstown credentials, but there are simply not enough votes to go around. Though each voter is permitted ten selections, the average voter uses considerably fewer than that. The number of votes per voter has been below seven every year since 1986, and sunk to a record low of 5.1 in 2012. Though I expect that number to soar to its highest level in three decades, it won’t be enough to unclutter the ballot

 

[Tom Servo]

As information, future ballots with HOF-caliber players

2015 - Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, and Pedro Martinez, Gary Sheffield and Carlos Delgado.

2016 - Ken Griffey, Jr. and Trevor Hoffman

2017 - Manny Ramirez, Ivan Rodriguez, and Jorge Posada.

2018 - Jim Thome, Chipper Jones, Omar Vizquel, Johnny Damon, and Jamie Moyer

2019 - Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte, and Todd Helton.

 

[Koya]

As information, future ballots with HOF-caliber players

2015 - Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, and Pedro Martinez, Gary Sheffield and Carlos Delgado.

2016 - Ken Griffey, Jr. and Trevor Hoffman

2017 - Manny Ramirez, Ivan Rodriguez, and Jorge Posada.

2018 - Jim Thome, Chipper Jones, Omar Vizquel, Johnny Damon, and Jamie Moyer

2019 - Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte, and Todd Helton.

At first blush, bold are utter no brainers, elite players and top half of the Hall. Italic (think it's only Smoltz) should make it, will make it, but not the elite tier of those bolded. Borderline guys / guys with issues underlined (issues = questions with roids, Thome's just not quite there I think)

 

[Don Quixote]

If only Maddux gets in, they are going to have to overhaul the process. It's a clogged drain that's only going to get worse.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Fairly amazing they passed over Miller again.

Anti-union sentiment?

 

[Eephus]

Fairly amazing they passed over Miller again.

Anti-union sentiment?

Tim Sullivan‏ @TimSullivan714 31m

A Hall of Fame with Bowie Kuhn and without Miller is like one with Jerry Quarry and without Ali.

 

[Frostillicus]

Among non-Twins my favorite all-time position player is Tim Raines and my favorite all-time pitcher is Mike Mussina. Would be cool if they both get in, and I think both are worthy, but I suspect neither was flashy enough.

 

[Don Quixote]

BBTF's Collecting Gizmo is up.

 

[Koya]

BBTF's Collecting Gizmo is up.

Cool link.

Piazza's getting very close. Could sneak in (or maybe next year if not). Surprised to see Bagwell getting that much love - the whole roid issue makes all this so damn convoluted (ie did Piazza? nothing but some common sense to say he did. Meanwhile, Clemens and Bonds are buried)

 

[Don Quixote]

Ken Gurnick voted for Morris, and nobody else. Won't be unanimous for Maddux.

 

[Koya]

Ken Gurnick voted for Morris, and nobody else. Won't be unanimous for Maddux.

People are dooshes. Seriously. If they are trying to make a statement, it works - their position nor their vote deserves any respect.

 

[shadyridr]

Ken Gurnick voted for Morris, and nobody else. Won't be unanimous for Maddux.

People are dooshes. Seriously. If they are trying to make a statement, it works - their position nor their vote deserves any respect.

His stance was hes not voting for anyone during the steroid era. LOL ####in dumass. Pretty sure they were doing steroids in the 80s when Morris was pitching too

 

[Eephus]

It figures Gurnick reports on the Dodgers

 

[Don Quixote]

Ken Gurnick voted for Morris, and nobody else. Won't be unanimous for Maddux.

People are dooshes. Seriously. If they are trying to make a statement, it works - their position nor their vote deserves any respect.

His stance was hes not voting for anyone during the steroid era. LOL ####in dumass. Pretty sure they were doing steroids in the 80s when Morris was pitching too

And he has also voted in the past for Ripken and Gwynn, whose careers did not end until 2001.

 

[dparker713]

Ken Gurnick voted for Morris, and nobody else. Won't be unanimous for Maddux.

People are dooshes. Seriously. If they are trying to make a statement, it works - their position nor their vote deserves any respect.

His stance was hes not voting for anyone during the steroid era. LOL ####in dumass. Pretty sure they were doing steroids in the 80s when Morris was pitching too

And he has also voted in the past for Ripken and Gwynn, whose careers did not end until 2001.

Logic is not a strong suit of many of the reporters out there. I seem to recall many journalism/English majors being ####ty at anything logic based - math, science, proper funneling technique, etc.

 

[Raider Nation]

What a knob.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/greg-maddux-won-t-unanimous-pick-hall-fame-165153925--mlb.html

 

[Raider Nation]

UPDATE: Gurnick told MLB Network Radio that he won't be voting in future elections for the Hall of Fame.

NO!!! Please reconsider!

 

[Koya]

UPDATE: Gurnick told MLB Network Radio that he won't be voting in future elections for the Hall of Fame.

NO!!! Please reconsider!

Good. Can we get his paper to stop wasting space on his columns?

 

[Sinn Fein]

As information, future ballots with HOF-caliber players

2015 - Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, and Pedro Martinez, Gary Sheffield and Carlos Delgado.

2016 - Ken Griffey, Jr. and Trevor Hoffman

2017 - Manny Ramirez, Ivan Rodriguez, and Jorge Posada.

2018 - Jim Thome, Chipper Jones, Omar Vizquel, Johnny Damon, and Jamie Moyer

2019 - Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte, and Todd Helton.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Maddux and Glavine give Bobby Cox a decent shot at this election - to put them all in as part of one class. Kind of wish Smoltz had not hung around...

 

[Doctor Detroit]

The MLBN guys went over all their ballots

Rosenthal: (10) Bagwell, Biggio, Glavine, Maddux, Martinez, Mussina, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Thomas

Russo: (4) Maddux, Glavine, Schilling, Thomas

Those two have votes. Costas, Reynolds and the others had a mix of the ten Rosenthal had plus Trammell, Morris, Bonds and Piazza.

Concensus believes:

In: Thomas, Maddux, Glavine

Close with chance: Biggio and Morris

Not close this year but next: Bonds, Schilling, and Raines

Rosenthal having Mussina and not Morris is obnoxious IMO.

I'd go Bonds, Trammell, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Thomas and Morris

 

[SoCalBroncoFan]

The MLBN guys went over all their ballots

Rosenthal: (10) Bagwell, Biggio, Glavine, Maddux, Martinez, Mussina, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Thomas

Russo: (4) Maddux, Glavine, Schilling, Thomas

Those two have votes. Costas, Reynolds and the others had a mix of the ten Rosenthal had plus Trammell, Morris, Bonds and Piazza.

Concensus believes:

In: Thomas, Maddux, Glavine

Close with chance: Biggio and Morris

Not close this year but next: Bonds, Schilling, and Raines

Rosenthal having Mussina and not Morris is obnoxious IMO.

I'd go Bonds, Trammell, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Thomas and Morris

I would go Bagwell, Biggio, Glavine, Maddux, Martinez, Raines, Thomas

I just cant bring myself to vote for guys who were proven to have used PED's. Maybe eventually, but not yet. I just feel like their contemporaries who didn't use (weren't caught) should get in before them.

 

[Raider Nation]

Gurnick just got utterly destroyed by Olbermann. He was tonight's World's Worst Person!

And I chipped in by calling him a "####### [mentally challenged person]" on twitter. Guy deserves everything he gets.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

The MLBN guys went over all their ballots

Rosenthal: (10) Bagwell, Biggio, Glavine, Maddux, Martinez, Mussina, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Thomas

Russo: (4) Maddux, Glavine, Schilling, Thomas

Those two have votes. Costas, Reynolds and the others had a mix of the ten Rosenthal had plus Trammell, Morris, Bonds and Piazza.

Concensus believes:

In: Thomas, Maddux, Glavine

Close with chance: Biggio and Morris

Not close this year but next: Bonds, Schilling, and Raines

Rosenthal having Mussina and not Morris is obnoxious IMO.

I'd go Bonds, Trammell, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Thomas and Morris

I would go Bagwell, Biggio, Glavine, Maddux, Martinez, Raines, Thomas

I just cant bring myself to vote for guys who were proven to have used PED's. Maybe eventually, but not yet. I just feel like their contemporaries who didn't use (weren't caught) should get in before them.

Non-juiced Bonds was the best player on that list and Thomas is the only one near him. If I had a vote and could only vote for two players, they'd be Maddux and Bonds.

 

[SoCalBroncoFan]

The MLBN guys went over all their ballots

Rosenthal: (10) Bagwell, Biggio, Glavine, Maddux, Martinez, Mussina, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Thomas

Russo: (4) Maddux, Glavine, Schilling, Thomas

Those two have votes. Costas, Reynolds and the others had a mix of the ten Rosenthal had plus Trammell, Morris, Bonds and Piazza.

Concensus believes:

In: Thomas, Maddux, Glavine

Close with chance: Biggio and Morris

Not close this year but next: Bonds, Schilling, and Raines

Rosenthal having Mussina and not Morris is obnoxious IMO.

I'd go Bonds, Trammell, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Thomas and Morris

I would go Bagwell, Biggio, Glavine, Maddux, Martinez, Raines, Thomas

I just cant bring myself to vote for guys who were proven to have used PED's. Maybe eventually, but not yet. I just feel like their contemporaries who didn't use (weren't caught) should get in before them.

Non-juiced Bonds was the best player on that list and Thomas is the only one near him. If I had a vote and could only vote for two players, they'd be Maddux and Bonds.

I agree. Bonds was a Hall of Famer without PED's. But he did use them. I am not saying I wouldnt put him in. I just dont think of him as highly as other guys because of the choices he made.

Plus, he was a total #####. And I qualify that by saying he was one of my favorite players, so I am not biased against him.

 

[Don Quixote]

The MLBN guys went over all their ballots

Rosenthal: (10) Bagwell, Biggio, Glavine, Maddux, Martinez, Mussina, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Thomas

Russo: (4) Maddux, Glavine, Schilling, Thomas

Those two have votes. Costas, Reynolds and the others had a mix of the ten Rosenthal had plus Trammell, Morris, Bonds and Piazza.

Concensus believes:

In: Thomas, Maddux, Glavine

Close with chance: Biggio and Morris

Not close this year but next: Bonds, Schilling, and Raines

Rosenthal having Mussina and not Morris is obnoxious IMO.

I'd go Bonds, Trammell, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Thomas and Morris

The BBTF gizmo has the top three looking safely in. Biggio is going to be really close (he's at 78% there, but the BBTF sample trends toward voters with larger ballots, since they are the ones who reveal their ballots). Piazza looking to have a much better shot than Morris.

 

[Brady Marino]

Remind me why Jack Morris is a HoF again.

 

[shadyridr]

The MLBN guys went over all their ballots

Rosenthal: (10) Bagwell, Biggio, Glavine, Maddux, Martinez, Mussina, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Thomas

Russo: (4) Maddux, Glavine, Schilling, Thomas

Those two have votes. Costas, Reynolds and the others had a mix of the ten Rosenthal had plus Trammell, Morris, Bonds and Piazza.

Concensus believes:

In: Thomas, Maddux, Glavine

Close with chance: Biggio and Morris

Not close this year but next: Bonds, Schilling, and Raines

Rosenthal having Mussina and not Morris is obnoxious IMO.

I'd go Bonds, Trammell, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Thomas and Morris

I would go Bagwell, Biggio, Glavine, Maddux, Martinez, Raines, Thomas

I just cant bring myself to vote for guys who were proven to have used PED's. Maybe eventually, but not yet. I just feel like their contemporaries who didn't use (weren't caught) should get in before them.

What about Piazza?

 

[Eephus]

Remind me why Jeff Morris is a HoF again.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=morris001jef

 

[Brady Marino]

Remind me why Jeff Morris is a HoF again.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=morris001jef

####### dyslexia.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Remind me why Jeff Morris is a HoF again.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=morris001jef

####### dyslexia.

Here's some Jeff Morris discussions

 

[Tom Servo]

I'd go Bonds, Trammell, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Thomas and Morris

My ballot would be pretty much this except I'd leave off Bonds and Clemens...yeah, I'm one of those guys.

 

[oso diablo]

today is supposed to be like christmas for baseball fans, but instead we get lumps of coal from blowhards lecturing about ethics, when most of them (the pundits/writers) profited from the steroid era, exploited it, and just looked the other way.

 

[avoiding injuries]

I heard yesterday that no starting pitcher who started playing after the 1970 baseball season is in the HOF. Maddux will be the first.

 

[oso diablo]

if you don't count Eck

 

[oso diablo]

Greg Maddux

Tom Glavine

Frank Thomas

 

[Don Quixote]

Biggio missed by two votes? Wow.

 

[oso diablo]

Morris at 61.5%

 

[MattFancy]

Biggio missed by two votes? Wow.

Damn I really thought he would get in this year

 

[TobiasFunke]

Biggio and Piazza should get in relatively soon, which is good. And I'm not gonna pass judgment on the BBWAA re: Bonds and Clemens- I'd personally vote for them, but the standards are ambiguous and I think not voting for them is defensible.

I'm more bummed about Raines, Bagwell and Moose. All three should be easy cases and they're either not getting much support or trending the wrong way.