Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
He's still more deserving than Namath or Swann.
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2014 Hall of Famers announced - '15 class now being discussed (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Raider Nation
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Tau837
Footballguy
Not really. How many plays did each of these three make that were crucial to winning a Super Bowl?
Super Bowls are not won by individuals.
False Start
Footballguy
CONGRATS TO RAY GUY AND ANDRE REED! While Harrison should have been in on a first ballot, his legal issues held him back from that. Reed and Guy should have been in well before this year anyways.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Not to mention that Guy's punt at the end of the 1st half in Super Bowl XVIII directly led to Squirek's Pick-6 which broke Washington's back.
Tau837
Footballguy
Perhaps you didn't read my post clearly. I didn't make that claim. The question is, of these named players -- Namath, Swann, Guy -- how many impact plays did these guys make that led to championships?
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I've had the privilege of watching Ray Guy his entire career as I started watching in 1970 and his career began around 73 IIRC. None better from where I sit, with the possible exception of Shane Lechler who should also one day get his enshrinement in the HOF.I have been watching NFL football since 1978 or so. Yes, I've seen Guy play. I've also seen a lot of Raiders play who were more deserving of the HOF than Guy is. Any comment on that?You know the case on Guy already. To ignore it and ignore what he did is being intellectually dishonest. Some would call that being a troll. Were you even alive to see Ray Guy punt?No response to my points on Guy? Make a case.Trying out a new thread title. Let me know how you guys like it.
I've also seen a lot of punters play who were better punters than Guy. Any comment on that?
Raiders like Plunkett, Brown, Branch, Flores really should be in the HOF. Stabler could be considered, but I don't have any issue with keeping him out.
In his era, if we are talking about household names, it's amazing that you could ask a casual fan that doesn't know much about football except what he hears from Howard Cossell on MNF, and he'll tell you he knows "Ray Guy". He was famous as he was good. No punter since has been as much a household name for his work on the field as Ray Guy.
It's a pointless argument. Championship winning plays isn't the best, or even a good way to determine HOF-worthiness.
Larry Brown won a Super Bowl MVP but isn't a candidate for Canton.
Larry Brown won a Super Bowl MVP but isn't a candidate for Canton.
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Tau837
Footballguy
It is relevant based on the post I responded to. Namath and Swann would not be in the HOF without having made plays to win Super Bowls, period. So to bring them up in comparison to Guy opens the door to ask whether or not Guy made comparable impact plays to win Super Bowls. The fact is, he didn't.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Guy won 3 SB's. I think it's arguable he had an impact in making plays to help his team win those games. You keep arguing facts you make up in you own mind. Fact is he's a HOFer and ain't nuthin you can do about it.It is relevant based on the post I responded to. Namath and Swann would not be in the HOF without having made plays to win Super Bowls, period. So to bring them up in comparison to Guy opens the door to ask whether or not Guy made comparable impact plays to win Super Bowls. The fact is, he didn't.
Tau837
Footballguy
Right. So, it's decided and nothing I can do about it is the sum of your argument. You can't actually justify it. Got it.Guy won 3 SB's. I think it's arguable he had an impact in making plays to help his team win those games. You keep arguing facts you make up in you own mind. Fact is he's a HOFer and ain't nuthin you can do about it.It is relevant based on the post I responded to. Namath and Swann would not be in the HOF without having made plays to win Super Bowls, period. So to bring them up in comparison to Guy opens the door to ask whether or not Guy made comparable impact plays to win Super Bowls. The fact is, he didn't.
Just because Swann gets in on postseason accomplishments doesn't mean every player does. Just not sure how you take one criteria and base everything on it.I'm not a Ray Guy backer so not looking to defend his candidacy but I like seeing non traditional positions get recognized.It is relevant based on the post I responded to. Namath and Swann would not be in the HOF without having made plays to win Super Bowls, period. So to bring them up in comparison to Guy opens the door to ask whether or not Guy made comparable impact plays to win Super Bowls. The fact is, he didn't.
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MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Hooper31
Footballguy
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I love that Guy and Reed getting in have the stat heads on tilt. Good to see that analytics haven't completely taken over the game. If I wanted that, I'd watch baseball.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
So happy to see Reed make the Hall.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Koya
Footballguy
Bout time Guy got in. Reinventing your position and to a degree a third of the game (special teams) and therefor overall strategy, there are few players that have ever done that. LT comes to mind how he changed both defense and offense.
Marv not getting in is an absolute joke, sketchiness or not. Top five all time at his position, easy. Arguably top 3.
Marv not getting in is an absolute joke, sketchiness or not. Top five all time at his position, easy. Arguably top 3.
Tau837
Footballguy
at comparing Guy to Lawrence Taylor.
nxmehta
Footballguy
Apparently the 46 people on the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee justifying him being in isn't good enough for you? You need some dude on an internet forum to make the case as well?Right. So, it's decided and nothing I can do about it is the sum of your argument. You can't actually justify it. Got it.Guy won 3 SB's. I think it's arguable he had an impact in making plays to help his team win those games. You keep arguing facts you make up in you own mind. Fact is he's a HOFer and ain't nuthin you can do about it.It is relevant based on the post I responded to. Namath and Swann would not be in the HOF without having made plays to win Super Bowls, period. So to bring them up in comparison to Guy opens the door to ask whether or not Guy made comparable impact plays to win Super Bowls. The fact is, he didn't.
It's over, he's in, you're wrong, let's move on.
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Tau837
Footballguy
Correct. Same as with the Major League Baseball veteran committee nominees. Generally speaking, they have weakened the MLB HOF. Same thing is happening with the Pro Football HOF.Apparently the 46 people on the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee justifying him being in isn't good enough for you? You need some dude on an internet forum to make the case as well?Right. So, it's decided and nothing I can do about it is the sum of your argument. You can't actually justify it. Got it.Guy won 3 SB's. I think it's arguable he had an impact in making plays to help his team win those games. You keep arguing facts you make up in you own mind. Fact is he's a HOFer and ain't nuthin you can do about it.It is relevant based on the post I responded to. Namath and Swann would not be in the HOF without having made plays to win Super Bowls, period. So to bring them up in comparison to Guy opens the door to ask whether or not Guy made comparable impact plays to win Super Bowls. The fact is, he didn't.
It's over, he's in, you're wrong, let's move on.
That being said, yes, of course this discussion is in the aftermath of Guy being selected. We are having a discussion. I would expect that those in favor of Guy being inducted should be able to make a case for him. Yet no one has actually put forth his case in this thread.
nxmehta
Footballguy
Here are the possibilities:Correct. Same as with the Major League Baseball veteran committee nominees. Generally speaking, they have weakened the MLB HOF. Same thing is happening with the Pro Football HOF.
That being said, yes, of course this discussion is in the aftermath of Guy being selected. We are having a discussion. I would expect that those in favor of Guy being inducted should be able to make a case for him. Yet no one has actually put forth his case in this thread.
1. The people on this forum can't make the proper case, but the committee could, and you might agree with them. In which case we need a committe member's help here.
2. You disagree with the committee's argument (which may or may not be presented correctly on this forum). But, this is irrelevant since the definition of being a HoFer is the committee thinks you are one. QED.
I'm guessing it's 2? Or maybe it's 1. I dunno.
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Tau837
Footballguy
In this forum, we tend to discuss merits of HOF selections. We tend to do that even though the actual HOF voters cast their votes independent of what we are saying in this forum.Here are the possibilities:Correct. Same as with the Major League Baseball veteran committee nominees. Generally speaking, they have weakened the MLB HOF. Same thing is happening with the Pro Football HOF.
That being said, yes, of course this discussion is in the aftermath of Guy being selected. We are having a discussion. I would expect that those in favor of Guy being inducted should be able to make a case for him. Yet no one has actually put forth his case in this thread.
1. The people on this forum can't make the proper case, but the committee could, and you might agree with them. In which case we need a committe member's help here.
2. You disagree with the committee's argument (which may or may not be presented correctly on this forum). But, this is irrelevant since the definition of being a HoFer is the committee thinks you are one. QED.
I'm guessing it's 2? Or maybe it's 1. I dunno.
Can no one actually discuss Guy's merits? If he is a deserving HOFer, why is it that no one can or will make a case for him?
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Tilt
Marvin Harrison belongs but he's really overrated by a lot of people. Top 5 all time? I don't think so. Guy played pretty much his entire career in a dome in a pass-happy offense with Peyton throwing him the ball. He's not even as good as TO or Randy Moss, much less Rice and Hutson and Carter (IMO).
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ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I hope this board is still around in 10-12 years when Tasker gets in on the Senior Committee nomination. The meltdown will be epic.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Ray Guy certainly deserves inclusion, he was the best I ever saw and the second best "guy" isn't close.
what about a guy like sean landeta? Does he make it?
I'd guess he played 20 years and made pro bowls, played in super bowls and all
Fariq
Footballguy
Namath was a league MVP (1968 AFL), multiple time All-AFL or All-NFL performer, and transcended the sport.
Swann was a multiple-time All-NFL receiver, was rated in the top three at WR for a half decade by the main scouting service of the time and got it done in the postseason.
Both Namath and Swann were more impactful than Guy. It is ignorant for you to knock the candidacies of Namath and Swann. There are busts of numerous Hall of Famers who, if they fell on you, you would not know the player depicted.
Knock the following Hall of Famers before ripping Namath and Swann-
Millner
Wojciechowicz
Mack
Wright
Reed
Slater
E. Thomas
Long
J. Smith
Carson
LeBeau
John Henry Johnson
C. Sanders
McAfee
S. Jones
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Fariq
Footballguy
Look in the mirror
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Isn't Ray Guy really only famous because his name was both easy to remember and kind of funny? Rusty ####z and Razor Shines should be in the baseball hall of fame.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Ray Guy's merits:In this forum, we tend to discuss merits of HOF selections. We tend to do that even though the actual HOF voters cast their votes independent of what we are saying in this forum.Here are the possibilities:Correct. Same as with the Major League Baseball veteran committee nominees. Generally speaking, they have weakened the MLB HOF. Same thing is happening with the Pro Football HOF.
That being said, yes, of course this discussion is in the aftermath of Guy being selected. We are having a discussion. I would expect that those in favor of Guy being inducted should be able to make a case for him. Yet no one has actually put forth his case in this thread.
1. The people on this forum can't make the proper case, but the committee could, and you might agree with them. In which case we need a committe member's help here.
2. You disagree with the committee's argument (which may or may not be presented correctly on this forum). But, this is irrelevant since the definition of being a HoFer is the committee thinks you are one. QED.
I'm guessing it's 2? Or maybe it's 1. I dunno.
Can no one actually discuss Guy's merits? If he is a deserving HOFer, why is it that no one can or will make a case for him?
1) Best Punter Ever
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Namath wasn't that good. Pulling mad tail is great, but shouldn't have been the reason he made the HOF, and that was his best achievement.
BuzzCagney
Footballguy
Ray Guy's merits:In this forum, we tend to discuss merits of HOF selections. We tend to do that even though the actual HOF voters cast their votes independent of what we are saying in this forum.Here are the possibilities:Correct. Same as with the Major League Baseball veteran committee nominees. Generally speaking, they have weakened the MLB HOF. Same thing is happening with the Pro Football HOF.
That being said, yes, of course this discussion is in the aftermath of Guy being selected. We are having a discussion. I would expect that those in favor of Guy being inducted should be able to make a case for him. Yet no one has actually put forth his case in this thread.
1. The people on this forum can't make the proper case, but the committee could, and you might agree with them. In which case we need a committe member's help here.
2. You disagree with the committee's argument (which may or may not be presented correctly on this forum). But, this is irrelevant since the definition of being a HoFer is the committee thinks you are one. QED.
I'm guessing it's 2? Or maybe it's 1. I dunno.
Can no one actually discuss Guy's merits? If he is a deserving HOFer, why is it that no one can or will make a case for him?
1) Best Punter Ever
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Rohn Stark..forgot about him. Who was the Colts kicker that got paid per FG and/or almost got a deal to be paid per FG? I still remember that, interesting theory
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Ray Guy's merits:In this forum, we tend to discuss merits of HOF selections. We tend to do that even though the actual HOF voters cast their votes independent of what we are saying in this forum.Here are the possibilities:Correct. Same as with the Major League Baseball veteran committee nominees. Generally speaking, they have weakened the MLB HOF. Same thing is happening with the Pro Football HOF.
That being said, yes, of course this discussion is in the aftermath of Guy being selected. We are having a discussion. I would expect that those in favor of Guy being inducted should be able to make a case for him. Yet no one has actually put forth his case in this thread.
1. The people on this forum can't make the proper case, but the committee could, and you might agree with them. In which case we need a committe member's help here.
2. You disagree with the committee's argument (which may or may not be presented correctly on this forum). But, this is irrelevant since the definition of being a HoFer is the committee thinks you are one. QED.
I'm guessing it's 2? Or maybe it's 1. I dunno.
Can no one actually discuss Guy's merits? If he is a deserving HOFer, why is it that no one can or will make a case for him?
1) Best Punter Ever
I don't like Namath-have met him a few times.
Watching highlight half hour shows, his arrogance is disturbingly calm almost austin powers like and the highlights are not that great.
If you grew up in NJ in 70s or 80s, you saw Namath highlights.
He's one that puzzles me. It's like a joke I just don't understand, I watch and am underwhelmed to say the least.
He was one of the best or most marketable sports figures in advertising and all. People (not me) do seem to turn their head toward the TV when he comes on like "ooh there's Joe."
Feel free to hit me with some especially good youtube highlight links, but I'm awfully curious if anyone else feels the same as I.
Watching highlight half hour shows, his arrogance is disturbingly calm almost austin powers like and the highlights are not that great.
If you grew up in NJ in 70s or 80s, you saw Namath highlights.
He's one that puzzles me. It's like a joke I just don't understand, I watch and am underwhelmed to say the least.
He was one of the best or most marketable sports figures in advertising and all. People (not me) do seem to turn their head toward the TV when he comes on like "ooh there's Joe."
Feel free to hit me with some especially good youtube highlight links, but I'm awfully curious if anyone else feels the same as I.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Pretty much. The numbers don't add up.
Why can't people just call this one like it is.... he made a ballsy guarantee of victory as 19-point underdogs against a "superior" NFL team, and he cashed in. It gave the AFL unexpected credibility (as did KC's victory the following season). If that's why he's in the HOF, fine. But put him in as a contributor, which he unquestionably was.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Derrick Brooks-LB 1st ballot Hall of Fame, could not be happier for him, he deserves it, and if you ask him I bet he is surprised he got in this easy, one of the most humbling men I have ever met for as much as he accomplished in the NFL and prior to that. He was the heart and soul of the Bucs for his entire career and I just am so happy for him, he really deserves it IMO.
Ray Guy-Got to see him punt and growing up a Miami Dolphin, we had Reggie Roby who dominated a few years for Miami but Ray Guy was the gold standard and did things a lot of punter still cannot do. His domination at the position over everyone else int he league over his career was incredible, it's a shame it took this long for him to get in but I think this is a terrific selection to the HoF.
Walter Jones-It's a shame I don't respect him the same way I do Willie Roaf. I think of Jones as a selfish player and again that's a shame because that's on me but I just seem to remember this guy being the 1st of what I called loafers. I know no one likes training camp but it seemed like this guy was either asking for money, not showing up until week 3 or 4 of the preseason, maybe when he was young it wasn't this way but by the time I knew he was ALL PRO and maybe all time great according to media, it just seemed like at that point he was grumpy. I know he has lots of ALL Pro selections but whenever I watched him it wasn't all that special. But my opinion really doesn't matter today, he's in, 1st ballot, I'm sure it means a lot to Seattle fans on the eve of the Super Bowl.
Michael Strahan-Certainly fit the bill for what we like when voting in DE/DL into the HoF. He had 140+ sacks, the SB ring, umpteen seasons of double digit production, multi-talented guy off the field, a well rounded person, I have no issues with Strahan in the HoF, I thought it was a foregone conclusion when he retired, had no idea Sapp was gonna live up to his name and show himself this week at the SB, way to tarnish your own Hall selection from last year you stupid goof.
Aeneas Williams-Again like Seattle, not that many Arizona players go to the HoF and why would there be with the decades of poor teams the Arizona Cardinals have whipped out. Williams was a great player, no real issue here but it just seems like a lot of people were indifferent and when there is indifference I usually don't feel the player is completely Hall worthy. 8 Pro Bowls, 55 Int, 23 fumble recoveries….78 turnovers he was responsible for and that's with guys trying to throw away from him. 12 defensive TDs he was responsible for, maybe he should have been in a few years ago.
Andre Reed-This is the one I don't fully understand. Growing up though he was a royal PIA for the Miami Dolphins and I thought he was elite until after he retired and then a lot of people had a lot of opinions on his career. Should he be going in ahead of Tim Brown? I don't know the order but about 5-10 years ago the Hall voters seemed to send a message that not all receivers were getting in right away and that everyone had to wait unit Jerry RIce went in, then it was Michael Irvin, then it was Carter, now Reed, I just wish we could get a playbill so we know what order they have to go in. Tim Brown in 2015?
What happened to Marvin Harrison? 8 seasons in a row of 1,100+ yards a season, 8 seasons in a row with double digit touchdowns, 100+ receptions 4 seasons in a row…just read that again a few times until it sinks in. If he doesn't qualify for the HoF with all the receptions, TDs, yards, I just don't understand. He was a precision route runner and never caused a problem off the filed during his career. If any voter is punishing him for anything associated with this gun traced to him…nothing this guy did from the time he entered the NFL until he retired, total class act and never a problem child. I just don't understand how you keep this guy out even 1 year. He was voted ALL PRO at age 34 at WR…only Jerry Rice to my knowledge has done that.
I don't have a real issue with any of these guys however I am truly disappointed Tony Dungy did not get selected. I assume he will get in but unfortunately every year the fact he is black is gonna be a bigger and bigger issue. You can say no and I plan a full thread on it but I am really disappointed they didn't put Tony in the Hall on his 1st try. I expect there to be a major vocal outpouring and I also think as each year goes by that this vocal outcry will get louder and louder, perhaps for the wrong reasons but I am highly disappointed that a guy who amassed 139 wins in 13 seasons with a Super Bowl ring and also another team in the 2002 Bucs who are attributed as the team he built, Gruden won with them but he was out of the league a few seasons later and hasn't coached since.
I haven't read the posts from today but I assume some folks feel a couple guys should have gotten the nod ahead of these guys.
Ray Guy-Got to see him punt and growing up a Miami Dolphin, we had Reggie Roby who dominated a few years for Miami but Ray Guy was the gold standard and did things a lot of punter still cannot do. His domination at the position over everyone else int he league over his career was incredible, it's a shame it took this long for him to get in but I think this is a terrific selection to the HoF.
Walter Jones-It's a shame I don't respect him the same way I do Willie Roaf. I think of Jones as a selfish player and again that's a shame because that's on me but I just seem to remember this guy being the 1st of what I called loafers. I know no one likes training camp but it seemed like this guy was either asking for money, not showing up until week 3 or 4 of the preseason, maybe when he was young it wasn't this way but by the time I knew he was ALL PRO and maybe all time great according to media, it just seemed like at that point he was grumpy. I know he has lots of ALL Pro selections but whenever I watched him it wasn't all that special. But my opinion really doesn't matter today, he's in, 1st ballot, I'm sure it means a lot to Seattle fans on the eve of the Super Bowl.
Michael Strahan-Certainly fit the bill for what we like when voting in DE/DL into the HoF. He had 140+ sacks, the SB ring, umpteen seasons of double digit production, multi-talented guy off the field, a well rounded person, I have no issues with Strahan in the HoF, I thought it was a foregone conclusion when he retired, had no idea Sapp was gonna live up to his name and show himself this week at the SB, way to tarnish your own Hall selection from last year you stupid goof.
Aeneas Williams-Again like Seattle, not that many Arizona players go to the HoF and why would there be with the decades of poor teams the Arizona Cardinals have whipped out. Williams was a great player, no real issue here but it just seems like a lot of people were indifferent and when there is indifference I usually don't feel the player is completely Hall worthy. 8 Pro Bowls, 55 Int, 23 fumble recoveries….78 turnovers he was responsible for and that's with guys trying to throw away from him. 12 defensive TDs he was responsible for, maybe he should have been in a few years ago.
Andre Reed-This is the one I don't fully understand. Growing up though he was a royal PIA for the Miami Dolphins and I thought he was elite until after he retired and then a lot of people had a lot of opinions on his career. Should he be going in ahead of Tim Brown? I don't know the order but about 5-10 years ago the Hall voters seemed to send a message that not all receivers were getting in right away and that everyone had to wait unit Jerry RIce went in, then it was Michael Irvin, then it was Carter, now Reed, I just wish we could get a playbill so we know what order they have to go in. Tim Brown in 2015?
What happened to Marvin Harrison? 8 seasons in a row of 1,100+ yards a season, 8 seasons in a row with double digit touchdowns, 100+ receptions 4 seasons in a row…just read that again a few times until it sinks in. If he doesn't qualify for the HoF with all the receptions, TDs, yards, I just don't understand. He was a precision route runner and never caused a problem off the filed during his career. If any voter is punishing him for anything associated with this gun traced to him…nothing this guy did from the time he entered the NFL until he retired, total class act and never a problem child. I just don't understand how you keep this guy out even 1 year. He was voted ALL PRO at age 34 at WR…only Jerry Rice to my knowledge has done that.
I don't have a real issue with any of these guys however I am truly disappointed Tony Dungy did not get selected. I assume he will get in but unfortunately every year the fact he is black is gonna be a bigger and bigger issue. You can say no and I plan a full thread on it but I am really disappointed they didn't put Tony in the Hall on his 1st try. I expect there to be a major vocal outpouring and I also think as each year goes by that this vocal outcry will get louder and louder, perhaps for the wrong reasons but I am highly disappointed that a guy who amassed 139 wins in 13 seasons with a Super Bowl ring and also another team in the 2002 Bucs who are attributed as the team he built, Gruden won with them but he was out of the league a few seasons later and hasn't coached since.
I haven't read the posts from today but I assume some folks feel a couple guys should have gotten the nod ahead of these guys.
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Sorry, forgot to post a link as you requested. I put this up on my YouTube page. Love the weather and the NFL Films music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR-NTVY64Cw
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
You posted a fishing expedition and then good posted yourself?
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