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2015 NBA Thread: I felt a great disturbance in the trolls, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. (1 Viewer)

Does Lebron have any shot of tying or surpassing Elgin Baylor and Jerry West for most final losses?  They both sit at 8, seems like probably a stretch to beat them but if the East remains weak I think he could tie.

 
Simmons mentioned on the podcast the other day that Baylor had a really bad knee injury mid-career from which he never fully recovered (within the context of a discussion about how far sports medicine and training has come these days and how much the modern players are aided by it). I don't think I ever knew that, so I was looking up his stats and while he still had a great career (of course), he was mother####in monster those first 5 years.  Averaged 35 pts and 20 rebounds in his third year, and 38 and 18 in his fourth year in 48 games, then 34 and 14 in his fifth year.  He knew he had some of the highest individual scoring games, but ######.   Still amazing that he and West could not take down the Celtics (he was on the 71 team, but didn't play in the playoffs), though I guess you can understand it when facing the indomitable Sam Jones.

Also looking into this jogged my memory about how badass the Hawks were in the late 50s and early 60s.  Pettit, Hagan, Wilkens.  Took out the Celtics a few times.

 
BTW, that 48-game season Elgin had wasn't cut short by injuries; it was military service.  Elgin was in the US Army Reserves, and was called up to active duty (under mysterious circumstances) late in 1961.  He was stationed up near Seattle and could only join the Lakers on weekends.  So those numbers he put up were while he was away from the team during the week in the Army.

 
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Bruce Dickinson said:
BTW, that 48-game season Elgin had was cut short by injuries; it was military service.  Elgin was in the US Army Reserves, and was called up to active duty (under mysterious circumstances) late in 1961.  He was stationed up near Seattle and could only join the Lakers on weekends.  So those numbers he put up were while he was away from the team during the week in the Army.
Click to expand...
Excellent point.

Elgin Baylor highlight reel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E  It's long, but everyone should at least watch the full-court pass at 2:20.

Also, interesting to watch this and think about the absence of the three-point line (continuing my theme).  Having been born in 1978, I never watched a live game without it and it really is quite different to think about the use of space.  Even before the recent emphasis on the 3, that line was always a clear demarcation for watching the game and figuring out where players will and should go.  Without it, the game looks more free-flowing and artistic (or something).  While I have always been (and will continue to me) fervently pro-progressiveness in most everything, I suppose I can empathize a little bit with some of these old codgers who are grumpy about the "state of today's game".

Another solipsistically-tilting tidbit is that those lovable chumps in the Southern Conference were the first ones to institute the 3-point line in a college game.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
Also, interesting to watch this and think about the absence of the three-point line (continuing my theme).  Having been born in 1978, I never watched a live game without it and it really is quite different to think about the use of space.  Even before the recent emphasis on the 3, that line was always a clear demarcation for watching the game and figuring out where players will and should go.  Without it, the game looks more free-flowing and artistic (or something).  While I have always been (and will continue to me) fervently pro-progressiveness in most everything, I suppose I can empathize a little bit with some of these old codgers who are grumpy about the "state of today's game".
Click to expand...
Last week, NBA Network ran the fortieth anniversary of the triple OT Finals game between Boston/Phoenix. What stood out most about the style of play was how much effort went into finding the best shot: either open or close to the basket. That sounds simple but it was interesting to see how detailed and intricate teams ran plays until they got what they felt was the best shot. I had never seen so many cuts/screens or possessions where all five players not only touched the ball but were involved in every aspect of the play.   

 
Kev4029 said:
A year from now they could be throwing their money at Durant rather than Harrison Barnes this year. And maybe something like Gobert or Adams rather than Ezeli.

ETA:

The cap is expected to approach 110 million a year from now. You could see the Warriors end up with:

PG: Curry

SG: Thompson, Iggy (very team friendly deal)

SF: Durant

PF: Green, Looney

C: Ibaka, Bogut (very team friendly deal)

Or they could keep the same team for a couple years and hope that Barnes and Ezeli improve as their role players either price themselves out of a job with GS (Livingston) or start to fade as they get older (Iggy, Bogut).




 
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Since you seem to be the one with the knowledge can you help me out? Or, if anyone else wants to, please do. I have no idea how the salary cap works out in the NBA but I assume it isn't a hard cap like the NFL.

What would you do with the T-Wolves and the salary cap approaching 110M? Just like you did above with the GSW. What FAs would you target?

Thank you in advance

 
Jules Winnfield said:
Since you seem to be the one with the knowledge can you help me out? Or, if anyone else wants to, please do. I have no idea how the salary cap works out in the NBA but I assume it isn't a hard cap like the NFL.

What would you do with the T-Wolves and the salary cap approaching 110M? Just like you did above with the GSW. What FAs would you target?

Thank you in advance
Click to expand...
Check out the Nate Duncan podcast from a couple days ago: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2016/06/08/finals-game-3-min-offseason-cap-preview-w-kevin-pelton

At 29:30, he breaks down the TWolves upcoming offseason and how they could/should use their cap.

 
Jules Winnfield said:
Since you seem to be the one with the knowledge can you help me out? Or, if anyone else wants to, please do. I have no idea how the salary cap works out in the NBA but I assume it isn't a hard cap like the NFL.

What would you do with the T-Wolves and the salary cap approaching 110M? Just like you did above with the GSW. What FAs would you target?

Thank you in advance
Click to expand...
If you want to learn about the salary cap, this is the place to go. It starts off with the basics then gets into the more complicated stuff. Awesome website.

I get all my salary information from here.

The problem with the T-Wolves (or my Nuggets) is they aren't a free agent destination, so they have no chance of getting the premier free agents and have to overpay the 2nd/3rd tier of free agents.

Next year they have nearly $62 million tied up with 12 players, including Rudez (has a team option they should decline) and Adreian Payne who for some amazing reason they traded a 1st rounder for but should probably just be waived for the open roster spot. If they decline the option for Rudez they'll have a smidge more than $60mil on the books plus $4mil for the 5th pick of the draft, leaving them something like $28 mil in cap room.

They also have to consider their young players coming up for contracts each of the next three off seasons, and it is sounding like the cap will rise to somewhere around $110 in 17-18 before settling back near $100 in 18-19.

Next off season Dieng is going to be looking for a massive raise (probably $15m/yr+), Muhammad is going to be looking for a nice raise as well (my guess would be for 8-12 million a year if he stays healthy). In 2018 they are going to have to max out Wiggins ($25m/yr or so) and pay LaVine (depends on how he develops the next two seasons it could range from probably low 8 figures to near max money). In 2019 KAT is going to get his extension which may be the 30% of the cap type (he is eligible for a bigger contract if he is All-NBA twice, All-Star starter twice, or MVP once), and Rubio will be looking for a new contract as well (either he'll be expendable by that point or a max player of about $30mil/year). Minnesota is never going to pay the luxury tax, so they are probably going to hard cap themselves in 18/19 to about $120 million in salaries. They can probably go nuts this off season, but I think they would probably be looking for three year contracts rather than four because of the above.

With all that in mind, I think they should be looking at some young wings and PFs to team with the rest of their young core. The problem with that is they are almost always restricted free agents that will be overpaid and when you attempt to sign a restricted free agent the original team is given 3 days to match the offer. During those 3 days Timberwolves couldn't sign anybody else with that cap room. Still, I would look at taking a chance at Terrence Jones and Donatas Motiejunas (depending on how bad his back is ####ed) from the Rockets as they can both play along side Towns. I'd also take a look at Kent Bazemore (young and athletic, passable shooter, could take the top defensive assignments from Wiggins), and Barnes (GASP!). Most of the top 20 free agents don't make a lot of sense for them because they are either too high profile to consider them (Lebron, Durant, Horford, Wade,Howard), have a team who is certain to max them out as a restricted free agent (Beal, Drummond), or are either redundant (DeRozan, Fournier, Clarkson).

If it were me, I would draft Dragan Bender if he falls or Jamal Murray if he doesn't. I would make a big run for Al Horford (whatever contract he wants) who would be an awesome fit next to Towns, but when he inevitably shows no interest, I would look to sign either Kent Bazemore (if I draft Bender) or Terrence Jones (if I draft Murray) on a three year contract. I would be looking to aggressively trade Pekovic's contract for the next 1.5 years then buy him out if I couldn't trade him. I wouldn't bother to resign Dieng or Mohammad next offseason unless they come for significantly cheaper than expected. Then just fill out the fringes of the roster until Wiggins, Towns, and whoever they draft this year start bringing in championships.

TL;DR - The T-Wolves will never be a free agent destination. They have a nice pick this year, but if they ever become a great team it will be nearly strictly because of Towns, Wiggins, this years draft pick, and maybe Rubio and LaVine.

 
Abraham said:
Wolves are towns, Wiggins, and lavine.  And they should be pretty good. 
Click to expand...
They are still a couple pieces away, IMO, and I think either Rubio or LaVine is the 6th man in 2017. They desperately need some more shooters and they need a long term solution at PF. Having Wiggins and Rubio clanking 3s kills the offense and I'm not sure a team in today's NBA can have two perimeter players as non shooters.

 
Encyclopedia Brown said:
Last week, NBA Network ran the fortieth anniversary of the triple OT Finals game between Boston/Phoenix. What stood out most about the style of play was how much effort went into finding the best shot: either open or close to the basket. That sounds simple but it was interesting to see how detailed and intricate teams ran plays until they got what they felt was the best shot. I had never seen so many cuts/screens or possessions where all five players not only touched the ball but were involved in every aspect of the play.   
Click to expand...
I'm not a big fan of the the current analytics driven style right now. I understand it's the most efficient way to play given the 3 pointer, but it's not very multidimensional or dynamic. I miss guys playing in the post. I think they need to move the 3 point line back, possibly eliminating it in the corners altogether. It's warped the game too much. I'd like to see more balance where different styles of play and different types of players are effective, there shouldn't just be one "right way" to play. Right now, if you can't shoot a 3, you're pretty much useless. Guys have no clue how to run a break that finishes at the basket anymore, it's pathetic. The mid range game is ostracized to the extent that open 17 footers are considered a bad shot choice. I liked the 3 when they brought it in, it added some variety, made it so Ds couldn't just stay close to the key and clog things up, but things have swung way too far in the opposite direction at this point.

I think the over reliance on the 3 is also why we're seeing such wild swings in these playoffs. You get a team that's on vs. a team that's off and it gets ugly quick. And these teams aren't equipped with post guys who can get you reliable 2s to stabilize things when the 3s aren't falling.

 
Hang on- Rubio is 18 months younger than Curry and 6 months younger than Kawhi?  Damn. Our wolves should keep him 

 
Abraham said:
Hang on- Rubio is 18 months younger than Curry and 6 months younger than Kawhi?  Damn. Our wolves should keep him 
Click to expand...
Younger than Lillard and Wall as well. He's got a couple more years of growing but I don't see him improving on his inability to score. His shooting percentages at the rim are just as awful as his mid range shooting which is just as awful as his 3 point shooting, and none of that has improved since his rookie year.

 
Kev4029 said:
If you want to learn about the salary cap, this is the place to go. It starts off with the basics then gets into the more complicated stuff. Awesome website.

I get all my salary information from here.

The problem with the T-Wolves (or my Nuggets) is they aren't a free agent destination, so they have no chance of getting the premier free agents and have to overpay the 2nd/3rd tier of free agents.

Next year they have nearly $62 million tied up with 12 players, including Rudez (has a team option they should decline) and Adreian Payne who for some amazing reason they traded a 1st rounder for but should probably just be waived for the open roster spot. If they decline the option for Rudez they'll have a smidge more than $60mil on the books plus $4mil for the 5th pick of the draft, leaving them something like $28 mil in cap room.

They also have to consider their young players coming up for contracts each of the next three off seasons, and it is sounding like the cap will rise to somewhere around $110 in 17-18 before settling back near $100 in 18-19.

Next off season Dieng is going to be looking for a massive raise (probably $15m/yr+), Muhammad is going to be looking for a nice raise as well (my guess would be for 8-12 million a year if he stays healthy). In 2018 they are going to have to max out Wiggins ($25m/yr or so) and pay LaVine (depends on how he develops the next two seasons it could range from probably low 8 figures to near max money). In 2019 KAT is going to get his extension which may be the 30% of the cap type (he is eligible for a bigger contract if he is All-NBA twice, All-Star starter twice, or MVP once), and Rubio will be looking for a new contract as well (either he'll be expendable by that point or a max player of about $30mil/year). Minnesota is never going to pay the luxury tax, so they are probably going to hard cap themselves in 18/19 to about $120 million in salaries. They can probably go nuts this off season, but I think they would probably be looking for three year contracts rather than four because of the above.

With all that in mind, I think they should be looking at some young wings and PFs to team with the rest of their young core. The problem with that is they are almost always restricted free agents that will be overpaid and when you attempt to sign a restricted free agent the original team is given 3 days to match the offer. During those 3 days Timberwolves couldn't sign anybody else with that cap room. Still, I would look at taking a chance at Terrence Jones and Donatas Motiejunas (depending on how bad his back is ####ed) from the Rockets as they can both play along side Towns. I'd also take a look at Kent Bazemore (young and athletic, passable shooter, could take the top defensive assignments from Wiggins), and Barnes (GASP!). Most of the top 20 free agents don't make a lot of sense for them because they are either too high profile to consider them (Lebron, Durant, Horford, Wade,Howard), have a team who is certain to max them out as a restricted free agent (Beal, Drummond), or are either redundant (DeRozan, Fournier, Clarkson).

If it were me, I would draft Dragan Bender if he falls or Jamal Murray if he doesn't. I would make a big run for Al Horford (whatever contract he wants) who would be an awesome fit next to Towns, but when he inevitably shows no interest, I would look to sign either Kent Bazemore (if I draft Bender) or Terrence Jones (if I draft Murray) on a three year contract. I would be looking to aggressively trade Pekovic's contract for the next 1.5 years then buy him out if I couldn't trade him. I wouldn't bother to resign Dieng or Mohammad next offseason unless they come for significantly cheaper than expected. Then just fill out the fringes of the roster until Wiggins, Towns, and whoever they draft this year start bringing in championships.

TL;DR - The T-Wolves will never be a free agent destination. They have a nice pick this year, but if they ever become a great team it will be nearly strictly because of Towns, Wiggins, this years draft pick, and maybe Rubio and LaVine.
Click to expand...
I don't see them ever attracting a top coach either

 
Curry improved his rim scoring a ton this year (the main reason for his improvement from his 1st MVP run) so it can be done....then again Curry has out if this world hand eye coordination.

 
No. 16 said:
Curry improved his rim scoring a ton this year (the main reason for his improvement from his 1st MVP run) so it can be done....then again Curry has out if this world hand eye coordination.
Click to expand...
It was a big knock on Rubio in the draft process and part of the reason he slid to 5 in 2009. And it's not like he is a big penetrate and take it to the rim guy, he's pretty selective, so his terrible shooting percentages at the rim (same could be said for his jump shooting percentages) don't even tell the whole story.

And Curry's share of shots at the rim and the percentage at the rim hardly changed. The biggest difference between Curry of last year and Curry of this year is he shot the ball a little more and traded a lot of mid range shots for 3s.

 
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Gr00vus said:
I'm not a big fan of the the current analytics driven style right now. I understand it's the most efficient way to play given the 3 pointer, but it's not very multidimensional or dynamic. I miss guys playing in the post. I think they need to move the 3 point line back, possibly eliminating it in the corners altogether. It's warped the game too much. I'd like to see more balance where different styles of play and different types of players are effective, there shouldn't just be one "right way" to play. Right now, if you can't shoot a 3, you're pretty much useless. Guys have no clue how to run a break that finishes at the basket anymore, it's pathetic. The mid range game is ostracized to the extent that open 17 footers are considered a bad shot choice. I liked the 3 when they brought it in, it added some variety, made it so Ds couldn't just stay close to the key and clog things up, but things have swung way too far in the opposite direction at this point.

I think the over reliance on the 3 is also why we're seeing such wild swings in these playoffs. You get a team that's on vs. a team that's off and it gets ugly quick. And these teams aren't equipped with post guys who can get you reliable 2s to stabilize things when the 3s aren't falling.
Click to expand...
My link.

 
Frequently overlooked in Rubio's scoring is his FT shooting. He shoots a good percentage and gets to the line a lot. His .536 FTr (FTA per FGA) was highest among PGs with at least 2000 minutes played. 

Top 5:

  1. Rubio .536 (2323 MP)
  2. Lowry .410 (2851 MP)
  3. Anteaternintendo .404 (2823 MP)
  4. Westbrook .397 (2750 MP)
  5. Isaiah Thomas .394 (2644 MP) 
 
sports_fan said:
Frequently overlooked in Rubio's scoring is his FT shooting. He shoots a good percentage and gets to the line a lot. His .536 FTr (FTA per FGA) was highest among PGs with at least 2000 minutes played. 

Top 5:

  1. Rubio .536 (2323 MP)
  2. Lowry .410 (2851 MP)
  3. Anteaternintendo .404 (2823 MP)
  4. Westbrook .397 (2750 MP)
  5. Isaiah Thomas .394 (2644 MP) 
Click to expand...
I'm guessing he is the designated technical foul shooter and at the end of games when they are leading hes getting the inbounds and fouled leading to his high free throw rate. He only shoots 9 times a game and plays 31mpg so it's easy to inflate his free throw rate.

 
Kev4029 said:
It was a big knock on Rubio in the draft process and part of the reason he slid to 5 in 2009. And it's not like he is a big penetrate and take it to the rim guy, he's pretty selective, so his terrible shooting percentages at the rim (same could be said for his jump shooting percentages) don't even tell the whole story.

And Curry's share of shots at the rim and the percentage at the rim hardly changed. The biggest difference between Curry of last year and Curry of this year is he shot the ball a little more and traded a lot of mid range shots for 3s.
Click to expand...
You are correct his mid range has fallen and 3PA increased, but his at rim has increased and more importantly his FG% at the rim has...IIRC he finished #3 as non-big men at fishing close range and in the Top 10 if you add in the DeAndre Jordans. 

Any Warrior fan will tell you Curry's floaters, back board lay ups, and scoop shots are improvements he made this year.

 
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Lebron's nutsack is more valuable than Steven Adams ballnutsack.  Racist nutbaiting.  Whitesacks matter.

 
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Cavs will likely still lose anyway it's near impossible to win in GS.  GS is the better, deeper basketball team they won 73 games this year and there was a reason for that they are that deep and talented.  It is amazing how bad Steph and Klay were in the first 3 games but still were up 2-1 anyway.  Cavs had to have won game 4 to have had any chance to win this series and that was still a long shot.  They won't win a game 7 at GS.  If they win game 5 even with Green out I will be surprised.

 
bananafish said:
I can think of plenty of toolier guys in the NBA in general, and LeBron was certainly the bigger tool in that interaction (unless you're from Cleveland I suppose).

He's the only Warrior to have played every game this season, except, of course, game 5 of the Finals  :lmao:
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Draymond's past behavior played a big role in his suspension.  Keep looking at it in a vacuum if it makes you feel better, but Green wouldn't have been suspended for game 5 if Friday wasn't the latest in a long string of nutshots.  

I agree that LeBron is not blameless for the Game 5 altercation.  In replays you can see LeBron start to walk around Green, then turn and decide to walk right over Green to show him up and highlight that Green was on the ground.

 
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sports_fan said:
In the old days you could castrate a guy on the court and it wasn't even a foul
Click to expand...
DET set the tone in the 1989 Finals with a move like that.  In Game 1, Isiah broke left and started doing a bunch of dribbling tricks seemingly to get Magic to come out and guard him, but he was really distracting the refs while Rodman turned AC Green into a gelding on the right block.  Wasn't even a whistle.  Pistons sweep.

 
bananafish said:
I can think of plenty of toolier guys in the NBA in general, and LeBron was certainly the bigger tool in that interaction (unless you're from Cleveland I suppose).
Click to expand...
He provoked Green, who took the bait and was the perpetrator of another shot to an opponent's balls.  Green needs to look in the mirror and reassess his knack for dirty play. 

 
NBA is the only sport that suspends or decides not to suspend players,  not based on the infarction,  but on how it will affect the competitiveness of the game.  So dumb.  Annoys people

 
140k fine if he's in the building.

If I were Dray I'd pay the fine as long as he doesn't get kicked out. Would suck not being able to celebrate with the team at home if they won. 

 
If they win tomorrow is it pretty much certain that whoever has the best game is getting MVP?  I think klay has been better than curry all series, but curry had the best game.  And Livingston has been really good. 

 
Curry will get it if he has a decent game and the Warriors win tomorrow. He's been better than Klay in most every stat this series (PPG, RPG, APG, FG%, etc). Draymon had a shot before the suspension. Iggy's been as valuable as anyone but I don't think he's scoring enough to win it.

 
Gr00vus said:
I'm not a big fan of the the current analytics driven style right now. I understand it's the most efficient way to play given the 3 pointer, but it's not very multidimensional or dynamic. I miss guys playing in the post. I think they need to move the 3 point line back, possibly eliminating it in the corners altogether. It's warped the game too much. I'd like to see more balance where different styles of play and different types of players are effective, there shouldn't just be one "right way" to play. Right now, if you can't shoot a 3, you're pretty much useless. Guys have no clue how to run a break that finishes at the basket anymore, it's pathetic. The mid range game is ostracized to the extent that open 17 footers are considered a bad shot choice. I liked the 3 when they brought it in, it added some variety, made it so Ds couldn't just stay close to the key and clog things up, but things have swung way too far in the opposite direction at this point.

I think the over reliance on the 3 is also why we're seeing such wild swings in these playoffs. You get a team that's on vs. a team that's off and it gets ugly quick. And these teams aren't equipped with post guys who can get you reliable 2s to stabilize things when the 3s aren't falling.
Click to expand...
I had a feeling you were old GB. 

 
Kev4029 said:
Younger than Lillard and Wall as well. He's got a couple more years of growing but I don't see him improving on his inability to score. His shooting percentages at the rim are just as awful as his mid range shooting which is just as awful as his 3 point shooting, and none of that has improved since his rookie year.
Click to expand...
How was Kidd at this age?

 
I looked earlier. Kidd didn't develop a good three point shot until after age 30. His rebounds and free throw shooting ticked up a bit before then. 

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
DET set the tone in the 1989 Finals with a move like that.  In Game 1, Isiah broke left and started doing a bunch of dribbling tricks seemingly to get Magic to come out and guard him, but he was really distracting the refs while Rodman turned AC Green into a gelding on the right block.  Wasn't even a whistle.  Pistons sweep.
Click to expand...
well, AC wasn't using it anyways so :shrug:

 
Just when I start to think Silver is starting to turn things around under his own regime, this suspension happens. I hope GS wipes the floor with LeBron's s*** stained shorts tomorrow.

 
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