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2015 NBA Thread: I felt a great disturbance in the trolls, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. (2 Viewers)

stbugs said:
 The Warriors weren't gassed at the end of the series due to the record.
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Then why were they gassed? It's been pretty widely put forward in this thread that Curry was definitely gassed at the end. If it wasn't due to lack of rest, then what was it due too? Sweat on the court somehow caused him to become tired? Resting six or seven games near the end of the season wouldn't have helped him be fresher for the playoffs?

 
It wasn't going for the record that tired Curry.  He just had physically tough series against OKC and Cleveland.  He also damaged his knee in a freak accident.  I think the knee injury was minimal to an extent.  Everyone banged up.

Lebron was just physically superior and has been able to avoid injury his whole career.  Which is startling.  

If Green hadn't gotten suspended maybe GSW wins.  But mentally and physically they fell short and the better won despite only having three home games.  

 
Daywalker said:
  1. MJ
  2. Russell
  3. Jabbar
  4. Shaq
  5. Wilt
  6. Magic
  7. Bird
  8. Duncan
  9. Kobe
  10. Lebron-  I expect Lebron to be aournd 3-4 when said and done.  Not there yet.
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Why is this a hot take when Lebron is 3-4 in the finals and has less titles then everyone except Wilt on this list?

Yes, I know R. Horry has so many titles.  Stop with that weak ####.  We splitting hairs with the best ever.  Titles matter.

Duncan has 5 and beat prime Lebron.  End of story.  Duncan was an old man at that point.  Duncan was still a major factor in that series on one leg.

Recency bias.  Everyone talks about it but still falls for it.

And yes finals record matters.  Some years you just don't have the team.  Kobe and Smush Parker?  But when a great makes the finals if they are so great they should dominant. Lebron did this series.  Lebron did not against Dirk.  Lebron had NO titles at this point.  Don't give me this Kobe or Shaq losing to Billiups BS.  They were going for a four-peat.  Completely different.

Dont tell me about all the finals Lebron made then tell me about the crap team he carried hence his bad record.  If that's the case he was lucky to make the finals.

Lebron will PROBABLY end up top 5 in my list.  He's not there yet.  Ahead of Duncan now?  Insane argument.  MVP's?  Nash has as many as Shaq and Kobe combined.

 
Duncan on one leg split two finals with Lebron recently including a miracle comeback.  Anyone think Lebron had a shot against a prime Duncan in those series?

Lebron was playing with two HOF'ers.

 
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Daywalker said:
Why is this a hot take when Lebron is 3-4 in the finals and has less titles then everyone except Wilt on this list?

Yes, I know R. Horry has so many titles.  Stop with that weak ####.  We splitting hairs with the best ever.  Titles matter.

Duncan has 5 and beat prime Lebron.  End of story.  Duncan was an old man at that point.  Duncan was still a major factor in that series on one leg.

Recency bias.  Everyone talks about it but still falls for it.

And yes finals record matters.  Some years you just don't have the team.  Kobe and Smush Parker?  But when a great makes the finals if they are so great they should dominant. Lebron did this series.  Lebron did not against Dirk.  Lebron had NO titles at this point.  Don't give me this Kobe or Shaq losing to Billiups BS.  They were going for a four-peat.  Completely different.

Dont tell me about all the finals Lebron made then tell me about the crap team he carried hence his bad record.  If that's the case he was lucky to make the finals.

Lebron will PROBABLY end up top 5 in my list.  He's not there yet.  Ahead of Duncan now?  Insane argument.  MVP's?  Nash has as many as Shaq and Kobe combined.
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Reponding paragraph for paragraph:

Your take didn't heat up until later, but LeBron doesn't have fewer titles than everyone except Wilt on that list.  Might want to recount.

Horry (and Sam Jones) routinely come up in these discussions to highlight the silliness behind ranking individuals based on team accomplishments.  All players who win a title don't play an equal role in winning that title.  So you're going to have to come up with something more compelling than "titles matter".  Why should they if you're not willing to include Horry and Jones among the all-time greats?

Prime LeBron also has a Finals win over Duncan.  It was in 2013.  It was a fantastic 7-game series and LeBron was the best player in it.  Surprised you didn't know that given how well you know the sport.

Everyone seems to be way too strong a word there.

Eesh.  This one's awful.  LeBron made the 2007 Finals with a supporting cast not much stronger than Kobe had in 2006 and 2007, yet you thinking it's fair to criticize LeBron for getting to the Finals as if it's worse than losing in the first round.  BTW, Shaq and Kobe weren't going for a four-peat the year they lost to Billups.  They weren't even the defending champions.  Are you sure you follow the sport?

In 2007, LeBron dragged a lousy team to the Finals.  In 2015, LeBron led a really good team that lost two starters to injury during the playoffs.  We can disagree on the impact a healthy Kevin Love would have had last year, but after seeing the 2016 Finals comeback it kinda makes you wonder what might have happened in 2015 if Kyrie Irving had been healthy, huh?

Duncan has been greater than LeBron for a longer time.  However, IMO LeBron has had a much longer stretch as the best player in the league than Duncan had.  Duncan was IMO the top dog from  2003 until 2008 or 2009, and LeBron has been the best active player since.  I'd say both Duncan and LeBron have credible arguments for being the best player since Jordan and wouldn't put a lot of effort disagreeing with someone who thinks Duncan is greater than LeBron, but IMO the two are close enough that it's unfair to use that "insane" label.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
Reponding paragraph for paragraph:

Your take didn't heat up until later, but LeBron doesn't have fewer titles than everyone except Wilt on that list.  Might want to recount.

Horry (and Sam Jones) routinely come up in these discussions to highlight the silliness behind ranking individuals based on team accomplishments.  All players who win a title don't play an equal role in winning that title.  So you're going to have to come up with something more compelling than "titles matter".  Why should they if you're not willing to include Horry and Jones among the all-time greats?

Prime LeBron also has a Finals win over Duncan.  It was in 2013.  It was a fantastic 7-game series and LeBron was the best player in it.  Surprised you didn't know that given how well you know the sport.

Everyone seems to be way too strong a word there.

Eesh.  This one's awful.  LeBron made the 2007 Finals with a supporting cast not much stronger than Kobe had in 2006 and 2007, yet you thinking it's fair to criticize LeBron for getting to the Finals as if it's worse than losing in the first round.  BTW, Shaq and Kobe weren't going for a four-peat the year they lost to Billups.  They weren't even the defending champions.  Are you sure you follow the sport?

In 2007, LeBron dragged a lousy team to the Finals.  In 2015, LeBron led a really good team that lost two starters to injury during the playoffs.  We can disagree on the impact a healthy Kevin Love would have had last year, but after seeing the 2016 Finals comeback it kinda makes you wonder what might have happened in 2015 if Kyrie Irving had been healthy, huh?

Duncan has been greater than LeBron for a longer time.  However, IMO LeBron has had a much longer stretch as the best player in the league than Duncan had.  Duncan was IMO the top dog from  2003 until 2008 or 2009, and LeBron has been the best active player since.  I'd say both Duncan and LeBron have credible arguments for being the best player since Jordan and wouldn't put a lot of effort disagreeing with someone who thinks Duncan is greater than LeBron, but IMO the two are close enough that it's unfair to use that "insane" label.
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You are correct.  Bird has 3.  Lebron has 3.

Lakers lost to Pistons after a 3-peat.  But Spurs one in between.

Would you concede winning your 4th not as crucial as your first?

 
Daywalker said:
You are correct.  Bird has 3.  Lebron has 3.

Lakers lost to Pistons after a 3-peat.  But Spurs one in between.

Would you concede winning your 4th not as crucial as your first?
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You don't seem to be giving LeBron any slack for losing the 2014 Finals when he actually had an active streak of consecutive titles won going, so what exactly are you asking me to concede?  You're the one who is not making any sense.  

Did you think Duncan and LeBron played one-on-one to best-of-7 to determine the 2014 NBA champion, or were they individuals in a standard team game?  Do you think Tim Duncan was the best player on his team that year?  After you realize the answer is "no", do you better understand why people like me bring up Robert Horry and Sam Jones when people like you make arguments that demonstrate an imperfect understanding of where titles come from?

 
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proninja said:
I'm impressed that you put this together. I'm even more impressed you didn't bring up his shaky at best command of the English language
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Just would have given him an excuse to dismiss the basketball-centered criticisms.

 
Lebron ahead of Duncan is strange to me.  One has two more titles.  One as an old man led his team to a 1-1 draw.  We can call it a draw but geez Miami was lucky to win.  Should have been 2-0.  We are talking "old" Duncan too.

 
If saying Duncan, with 5 titles to 3, is ahead of Lebron while staying in one place and playing with mid to late first rounders is a "hot" take then so be it.  Call me crazy.

 
Good thing I've been away since game 6. I would have been cursing up a storm anyways. The past few days have allowed me to read all the over reactions, hot takes, and just plain non-sense that this thread provides. It really increases my enjoyment of the NBA. There have been a bunch of topics hit upon since the finals ended so here she blows:

- The Warriors lost the series, not the refs. The Cavs earned their victory. The Cavs were "lucky" with injuries, the Warriors were not. It's all part of the game. To discredit what the Cavs did would be insane. To discredit what the Warriors accomplished through out the season except the last 3 games would be foolish. Still as a Dubs fan, the championship is all that matters. However, there is NO DOUBT in my mind if the teams meet again next year with similar rosters.... the Dubs would win. Curry was not healthy....a healthy Curry and the Warriors beat the Cavs. Although Curry was injured the Dubs still had a chance to win the series, the first 4 games were indicative of this, but then the Draymond suspension happened. That was THE turning point in this series as the Warriors lost game 5 without their defensive hub, Bogut and Iggy got injured, and LBJ and Kyrie turned in historic performances. People like to say the Warriors choked (I'll agree given G7 was so close), but don't forget the last 3 games the Cavs were playing a different Warriors team than the first 4 games. If Draymond plays game 5....I firmly believe the Dubs are the world champs, but maybe that's just being a homer.

- LBJ's legacy. He's definitely in that tier right below Jordan. You could put LBJ anywhere below Jordan and ahead of Kobe and I won't think you're crazy.

- Now onto Curry. I can't believe all the over reaction and how Curry tarnished his legacy. His legacy is fine and not yet complete. Dude is 1-1 in the Finals. He was unanimous MVP. Curry's numbers in the Finals last year didn't look good, but the attention he drew and the hockey assists he made are the reason the Dubs won. Sure he didn't play spectacularly in the playoffs this year, but you know what..... he was not healthy. As a Dubs fan, the Curry we watched in the playoffs was not the same Curry as the regular season. I know everyone likes to spout the cliches that the playoffs are more physical....but you know what? It's hard to deal with physical play if your ankle and knees are hurt. The effect of the leg injuries showed up the most in Curry's ability to get to the rim and finish in the lane, which was THE biggest reason for his improvement after his MVP year. If you just watched Curry in the playoffs (like most do) you wouldn't know he is one of the elite finishers at the rim. In the regular season per NBA.com in shots < 10 feet  (29.8% of his shots) Curry went 3.7/6 = 61.3% at close shots....that's better % than Andre Drummond, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, James Harden, and Russell Westbrook people thought of as some of the games best finishers. In the playoffs, Curry's attempts in that range dropped to 25.8% and the FG% down to 50.6%. By contrast, Kyrie in the playoffs was 34.5%/52.1% vs  38.6%/52.5%. So did playoff defenses get harder JUST for Curry...or are there other factors that explain the precipitous drop in his close range FG% in the playoffs? I'll go with the latter. Again....do you really think Kevin Love could actually defend a healthy Curry from 3 point land? Now, while Curry wasn't healthy that doesn't excuse his boneheaded decisions and careless turnovers which hurt the Warriors just as much.

- Curry, Draymond, Klay, and Kerr get most of the heat for losing the series...but the player who impacted the outcome the most was Harrison Barnes. Dude was horrendous. If he makes his shots (many of them wide open) at his normal rate...the Warriors likely win the series. The Cavs sold out to stop Curry and Klay and Barnes could not make them pay for it which is the key to the Warriors DEATH LINEUP....everyone is supposed to be able to make a 3 pointer.

- I expect the Dubs to be back in the Finals again next year if they stay healthy. Just like how the 2014 Spurs were a team on the mission. I expect the Warriors to be the same. Watching Curry, Draymond, and Klay improve EACH and EVERY year. I have no doubt they will put in the work this off-season. KD is a great dream, but I hope the Warriors are going to make a play for Al Horford similar to how they snagged Iggy when everyone thought they wanted Dwight Howard. Al Horford is the perfect fit for this team...more so than Durant. The playoffs showed how much the Dubs need a big man who is serviceable at BOTH ends of the court and Horford is above average at everything. I would cream in my pants if Meyers was able to snag him.

- Great trade by the Bulls. Guess we can still count on the Knicks and Kings to off-load ####ty contracts.

- Who should the Dubs be looking at for #30? I don't watch any college basketball at all.

 
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Funny thing about titles and hypotheticals.

Shaq and Bryant (their primes overlapping) played together for eight years, five of which were with Phil Jackson, and they only won three championships together (one of which was tainted because of the Tim Donaghy fiasco). 

Two of arguably the top 12 players ever playing together for eight seasons should have had more than three titles and four finals appearances.  Magic and Kareem, for example, played together for 10 seasons and won five championships and had eight finals appearances total. 

Imagine if James had had an in-his-prime Shaq for eight seasons...

 
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i think that next year will be the year of jabrari parker i am going right on record with that one bromigos take that to the bank 

 
Cliff Clavin said:
 Ian Begley: The Knicks are looking to upgrade their backcourt this offseason. But if they have any interest in a center, one of the top bigs on the market would be open to signing with them. The Knicks are one of several teams Dwight Howard would consider in free agency, league sources say. Howard told friends earlier in the season that he was interested in playing for the Knicks; that interest remains as Howard approaches free agency, per league sources. It’s unclear, though, if Phil Jackson and the Knicks would have any interest in Howard. They signed Robin Lopez to a four-year contract last summer. Lopez was a bright spot for the club during last year’s 32-win campaign. The club is expected to have at least $30 million in cap space this summer. 

– via Twitter IanBegley
 
 
:excited:
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Ah, now it makes sense.  The Knicks are trying to win the 2010-11 NBA Championship.  Bold strategy.

 
Kev4029 said:
Says the guy who has Kobe ahead of Lebron. I used stats a few days ago, but you do realize that Lebron is probably the better outside shooter, don't you?
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What's funny is, Bryant has the weird rep for having been a great closer/clutch player, but I am a little hazy on remembering game-winning, buzzer beaters he made in the playoffs.  Any help, anyone? 

Meanwhile, James has three that immediately come to mind: '09 against the Magic, '13 against the Pacers, and last year against the Bulls.   

 
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I'm pretty sure every metric has Kobe as one of the least effective "clutch" shooters in NBA history.  The apologists just chalk it up to "usage" and "quantity" but he's pretty bad at the end of games, quarters, etc. 

 
Daywalker said:
I'm fine for people putting Lebron in top 5 but i think it's just as acceptable to put him where I do.  Not a hot take.
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So we're going to go with "inconsistent with your other posts" for this one.  I suggest contacting the ombudsman if you don't like the ruling.

 
Abraham said:
I'm pretty sure every metric has Kobe as one of the least effective "clutch" shooters in NBA history.  The apologists just chalk it up to "usage" and "quantity" but he's pretty bad at the end of games, quarters, etc. 
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It could be "variance" as well.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
Where was David Robinson drafted?
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The '98 Spurs did have 3 former #1 overall picks... ;)   not going back to the previous page to multiquote what Bruce was responding to.  #### off.

 
Nice win this year and all, but do the cavs even win a game against the rose/howard/melo knicks? Gonna have to deal with some actual teams in their conference next year...

 
TobiasFunke said:
Ah, now it makes sense.  The Knicks are trying to win the 2010-11 NBA Championship.  Bold strategy.
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It was a much tougher league in 2010-11.  Today's players wouldn't be able to handle the physical play that dominated games back then.  All-in.

 
Thad Young supposedly being shopped for a first. I wouldn't mind the Celtics grabbing him for the #23 pick  :coffee:  

Pretty short money especially with the $$ explosion that is about to happen. 

 
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mr. furley said:
i really want to snap off some crazy misguided diatribe filled with name calling, thinly veiled threats and taunts about your sexuality but i just don't have enough @tjnc09 in me today
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Captain Quinoa was the one who called bananafish a f---ot and let's also not forget Bruce Dickinson was the one who called people racist for criticizing Lue. I'm not surprised Bruce liked your post since he is the biggest hypocrite here.  Those are things I would never say nor suggest.

 
tjnc09 said:
mr. furley said:
i really want to snap off some crazy misguided diatribe filled with name calling, thinly veiled threats and taunts about your sexuality but i just don't have enough @tjnc09 in me today
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Captain Quinoa was the one who called bananafish a f---ot and let's also not forget Bruce Dickinson was the one who called people racist for criticizing Lue. I'm not surprised Bruce liked your post since he is the biggest hypocrite here.  Those are things I would never say nor suggest.
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brohan what is wrong man i can just sort of feel the anger in you my this is a good place and i bet if you told us what was going down we could help you out for instance i think hobbies are a great way to deal with stress you could maybe build a model railroad with a sweet little village and make the cars move around and go vroom and stuff and bam all of the sudden you are feeling better so man just let it out take that to the bank bromigo 

 
SWC said:
brohan what is wrong man i can just sort of feel the anger in you my this is a good place and i bet if you told us what was going down we could help you out for instance i think hobbies are a great way to deal with stress you could maybe build a model railroad with a sweet little village and make the cars move around and go vroom and stuff and bam all of the sudden you are feeling better so man just let it out take that to the bank bromigo 
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:lmao: :lmao: :cry:

Holy crap.  You are a different cat and I love you for it, swcer.

 
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