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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (2 Viewers)

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Kev4029 said:
Yeah, I agree with most of this. Plumlee would be a fine center for somebody, just not the Nuggets. They don't need a center, they need a power forward that can protect the rim and space the floor. The problem with that, is there is only a very small number of such players, and they are all expensive. Of guys that can actually be full time power forwards, you have Ibaka, Porzingas (probably much better at center), KAT (better at center), Durant (probably better at SF), Green, and Millsap. I would be happy to have the Nuggets give a three year max deal to either Millsap or a little less than three year max deal to Ibaka, but the other guys would never come here.
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I do think that they could maybe navigate around having to target some of those big name 4's that you mentioned.  For example--if they went for a guy like Mo Speights (who is relatively cheap compared the guys that you mentioned)--but in turn used the money they saved to target a really legit PG and maybe a sharp shooter like Reddick or Korver..etc.   While I certainly agree that the guys you mentioned would be awesome--I don't think they are the only options.   I think the point is that replacing Nurk with a guy like Plumlee essentially duplicated the same roster problem that they have always had.   I think you were absolutely spot on with your assessment there. 

 
mr. furley said:
is there another sport where fans & teams give up on players faster than the NBA?

if you aren't a superstar inside 20 games, you're garbage
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How many of those do you ever recall working out though? Other than chauncey billups I can't think of one. 

 
Jayrod said:
Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread or not, but Korver looks like a nice pickup for the Cavs.  I just looked it up and he is shooting like 52% from 3 since being with them.  In 32 games with Atlanta, he only broke 20 points 1 time, but has done it 4 times with the Cavs in 20 games.  Just seems like a really good fit for both the team and player and gives them a slightly better chance of hanging with the W's.  Plus with Boston not making any major adds, they should have an easier road to the Finals than Golden State.
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62% from 3 in 9 February games so far. Silly.

 
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wikkidpissah said:
This. Spacing is everything now. It's the reason the Celts are in the conversation with weak ball talent at almost every position, the terms under which largely uncoachable athletes are able to play some form of defense and the focus of everyone who wants to win basketball games. Used to be you couldnt win with a perimeter offense, now you cant win with an interior offense. Now, you dont got the mix, you aint in the mix. Dual bigs can work if they get the spacing down. Lesser talents probably shouldnt try, uncoachable supreme talents shouldn't try (which makes BoogieBrow unlikely to work). Like gap-oriented defenses in fb, the first guy to figure out hi-lo posting in modern spacing schemes is gonna win for several years while everyone else is going to go out & get dual bigs and fail, just like they're doing in the 3&D game now. 
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You can win with an interior offense you just can't if you have a player that the defense doesn't have to honor.

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
I do think that they could maybe navigate around having to target some of those big name 4's that you mentioned.  For example--if they went for a guy like Mo Speights (who is relatively cheap compared the guys that you mentioned)--but in turn used the money they saved to target a really legit PG and maybe a sharp shooter like Reddick or Korver..etc.   While I certainly agree that the guys you mentioned would be awesome--I don't think they are the only options.   I think the point is that replacing Nurk with a guy like Plumlee essentially duplicated the same roster problem that they have always had.   I think you were absolutely spot on with your assessment there. 
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The problem they have going forward is Jokic will never been a plus defender and cannot play any position other than center because he is too slow. Offensively,  he thrives with an empty lane and guys that can space the floor. When they play with Gallo or Chandler at the 4 they are an elite offense, only Golden State can match. With guys like Nurkic and Plumlee, they are still at terrible defense and maybe even worse, but it also kills the offense. Other than point guard, they don't need to improve on their lineups offensively, they need to improve defensively while not clogging the lane. To do that they need players that can control perimeter penetration, which IMO is a bigger problem than rim defense, and also find a power forward that can protect the rim. Ideally, Murray and Harris would be the starting back court next year, but they need guys that can shoot AND defend at the forward spots.

 
mr. furley said:
is there another sport where fans & teams give up on players faster than the NBA?

if you aren't a superstar inside 20 games, you're garbage
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In a semi-related note, on NY radio last night one of the hosts made the point how the current 6-7-8 seeds (Pistons, Pacers, and Bulls) were all either sellers or tried to be sellers at the trade deadline. Three teams in the playoffs right now basically admitted they had no shot and were giving up. While it makes sense, it's just a weird little quirk of the NBA that doesn't really happen in other sports.

 
Capella said:
How many of those do you ever recall working out though? Other than chauncey billups I can't think of one. 
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you'd be far better equipped to answer that than me

i'm thinking of guys that come out with big expectations but aren't a-list players immediately. maybe they aren't ever going to be all-NBA but fans treat them like they should just be exiled from the league before the all-star break.

some of those guys go on to have long careers as useful bench or rotation players. just not as high-end superstars.

Noel and Okafor come to mind just because of recency but fans talk about them like they can't believe  and NBA team ever thought they could play basketball at all and they should be jettisoned to Turkey.  maybe they aren't #1 #1's but they'll probably be in the league for 10-12 years as solid, if not spectacular, players.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
Kyle Lowry?

but mostly true I think.
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just because this is how my mind works.. i think it would be interesting to analyze drafts going back, say, 30 years and figure out how all the top 15 picks fared.

hell, maybe just top 10 since the consensus seems to be if you're drafting outside the lottery you may as well not pick a player at all.

eta:  starting with the '89 draft :excited:

http://www.nba.com/history/draft/1989-draft/

 
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thecatch said:
CJ McCollum. Giannis. I think there's actually quite a few examples of good players taking awhile to develop, though the superstars usually show flashes right away. 
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Dirk was pretty bad for most of his rookie year.  I remember thinking he was going to be just a typical stiff

 
mr. furley said:
is there another sport where fans & teams give up on players faster than the NBA?

if you aren't a superstar inside 20 games, you're garbage
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This is exaggerated just a bit, off the top Steve Nash, Kawhi  Leonard, Tyson Chandler,  Ben Wallace, Isaiah Thomas  of the Celtics, Jeff Teague. 

 
msudaisy26 said:
This is exaggerated just a bit, off the top Steve Nash, Kawhi  Leonard, Tyson Chandler,  Ben Wallace, Isaiah Thomas  of the Celtics, Jeff Teague. 
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which is what i'm wondering. Nerlens Noel was picked #6 and iirc was expected to set the league on its ear with his defensive prowess. he's in his 3rd year, with the Sixers. they also selected Okafor and Embiid which made people say "we don't need Noel, he's not good anyways".

he's so poorly thought of in Philadelphia that they just sent him to Dallas for a sack of basketballs.. and that's with Okafor also considered a bust and Embiid, when he comes back from another injury, playing with one balsa leg.

is Noel so bad, after 2+ seasons with a horrible organization and nothing around him, that he can be given away?

maybe he is. i have no idea. but that seems to be how these young guys get treated now. if you're a big man not putting up 20 and 10 in your first season fans are looking around like "why is our GM so bad? why won't he cut this bum?"

there doesn't seem to be room for rotation type guys anymore. either you're a superstar or the team wants nothing to do with you... immediately.

 
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mr. furley said:
which is what i'm wondering. Nerlens Noel was picked #6 and iirc was expected to set the league on its ear with his defensive prowess. he's in his 3rd year, with the Sixers. they also selected Okafor and Embiid which made people say "we don't need Noel, he's not good anyways".

he's so poorly thought of in Philadelphia that they just sent him to Dallas for a sack of basketballs.. and that's with Okafor also considered a bust and Embiid, when he comes back from another injury, playing with one balsa leg.

is Noel so bad, after 2+ seasons with a horrible organization and nothing around him, that he can be given away?

maybe he is. i have no idea. but that seems to be how these young guys get treated now. if you're a big man not putting up 20 and 10 in your first season fans are looking around like "why is our GM so bad? why won't he cut this bum?"

there doesn't seem to be room for rotation type guys anymore. either you're a superstar or the team wants nothing to do with you... immediately.
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not sure who you mean by Philadelphia, but the Noel deal seems to have been roundly dismissed by everyone.

 
mr. furley said:
just because this is how my mind works.. i think it would be interesting to analyze drafts going back, say, 30 years and figure out how all the top 15 picks fared.

hell, maybe just top 10 since the consensus seems to be if you're drafting outside the lottery you may as well not pick a player at all.

eta:  starting with the '89 draft :excited:

http://www.nba.com/history/draft/1989-draft/
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Maybe you could create a slideshow about the top 21 draft busts and gems for us.

 
mr. furley said:
i've yet to hear anyone say "Nerlens Noel is a star/useful player/shouldn't be traded"
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Most people said it was a bad deal, what more do you want? The fact is Noel is a good and useful player, but he doesn't fit in for Philly. It is going to be difficult to pay your 3rd or 4th big roughly 15 to 20 million and compete. 

 
mr. furley said:
which is what i'm wondering. Nerlens Noel was picked #6 and iirc was expected to set the league on its ear with his defensive prowess. he's in his 3rd year, with the Sixers. they also selected Okafor and Embiid which made people say "we don't need Noel, he's not good anyways".

he's so poorly thought of in Philadelphia that they just sent him to Dallas for a sack of basketballs.. and that's with Okafor also considered a bust and Embiid, when he comes back from another injury, playing with one balsa leg.

is Noel so bad, after 2+ seasons with a horrible organization and nothing around him, that he can be given away?

maybe he is. i have no idea. but that seems to be how these young guys get treated now. if you're a big man not putting up 20 and 10 in your first season fans are looking around like "why is our GM so bad? why won't he cut this bum?"

there doesn't seem to be room for rotation type guys anymore. either you're a superstar or the team wants nothing to do with you... immediately.
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Yea fans in Philly are not happy at all giving up on Noel. Especially for what we got. Then we're being sold he was traded for a first rounder. A crock of ####.

 
mr. furley said:
which is what i'm wondering. Nerlens Noel was picked #6 and iirc was expected to set the league on its ear with his defensive prowess. he's in his 3rd year, with the Sixers. they also selected Okafor and Embiid which made people say "we don't need Noel, he's not good anyways".
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would have been 1.01 if they didnt already know he was missing his rookie yr with a knee. he was exACTly what i wanted for the Celts last draft day and they could have had him for the 2 #1 picks they used on those international guys. ten cent head & tude, which made the bigmanlogjam ugly in Philly and made his subtraction an addition (and dont overlook Anderson just yet), but a transcendent defensive talent who at least knows how to get out of the way on offense

 
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msudaisy26 said:
This is exaggerated just a bit, off the top Steve Nash, Kawhi  Leonard, Tyson Chandler,  Ben Wallace, Isaiah Thomas  of the Celtics, Jeff Teague. 
Click to expand...
It wasn't that long ago that most coaches wouldn't play most rookies much.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
not sure who you mean by Philadelphia, but the Noel deal seems to have been roundly dismissed by everyone.
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Agreed. I think most of Philly wanted Noel.

I also think the deal was panned because there was a thought (on sports radio) that the Sixers were going to try and sign either Noel or Ilyasova to a deal.  When Ilyasova was moved...I think people thought they made their choice with Noel.  

 
And the sixers players and Brett Brown didn't get the memo from management to tank. Up 22 against Washington in the 4th.

 
msudaisy26 said:
Most people said it was a bad deal, what more do you want? The fact is Noel is a good and useful player, but he doesn't fit in for Philly. It is going to be difficult to pay your 3rd or 4th big roughly 15 to 20 million and compete. 
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I think your last sentence is the key. Philly didn't want to pay Noel $20M a year. If he could play alongside Embiid it would be one thing, but they didn't have much success at that. They weren't going to pay him $20M a year to be a backup center.

 
The last 2 mins of this game are a ####### joke. 2 Technicals against the sixers and the weakest fouls given to Wall have made it a 4 pt game with 21 secs left.

 
There we go. Crybaby Wall didn't get a call and Sixers run it out.

Oh and now they foul for no reason. Eat it Washington.

 
GroveDiesel said:
I think your last sentence is the key. Philly didn't want to pay Noel $20M a year. If he could play alongside Embiid it would be one thing, but they didn't have much success at that. They weren't going to pay him $20M a year to be a backup center.
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:confused:  They played a total of 8 minutes together.  

Dario Saric looking really good this game.  Okafor is awful tho.

 
The Heat with an 18 point road win against the Hawks. Waiters with a +/- of +30. They had 30 assists and made 17 3s and played good D. The Golden State formula with Waiters, Dragic, Tyler Johnson, Babbitt, Reed and Whiteside. Winners in 15 of 17 games. 

 
Capella said:
How many of those do you ever recall working out though? Other than chauncey billups I can't think of one. 
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Kobe had a pretty rough rookie year and people were calling him a bust. 

He turned out ok. 

 
mr. furley said:
just because this is how my mind works.. i think it would be interesting to analyze drafts going back, say, 30 years and figure out how all the top 15 picks fared.

hell, maybe just top 10 since the consensus seems to be if you're drafting outside the lottery you may as well not pick a player at all.

eta:  starting with the '89 draft :excited:

http://www.nba.com/history/draft/1989-draft/
Click to expand...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/draft_finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=1989&year_max=2016&college_id=0&pick_overall_min=1&pick_overall_max=15&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=0&order_by=ws_per_48

 
Derrick Rose is not looking to get a buyout from the Knicks, as he still hopes to sign with New York long-term.
Rose was purportedly almost swapped for Ricky Rubio at the deadline, but the Knicks were asking for an extra piece and the Wolves declined. Rose now says he wants to re-sign with the Knicks this summer. "I hope so. They didn’t trade me,’’ Rose said. "That’s a good sign." From a fantasy perspective, Rose has exceeded modest expectations this season, due in large part because he has been able to stay healthy for the most of the year.

 
 
Source: New York Post

 
Craig_MiamiFL said:
Derrick Rose is not looking to get a buyout from the Knicks, as he still hopes to sign with New York long-term.
Rose was purportedly almost swapped for Ricky Rubio at the deadline, but the Knicks were asking for an extra piece and the Wolves declined. Rose now says he wants to re-sign with the Knicks this summer. "I hope so. They didn’t trade me,’’ Rose said. "That’s a good sign." From a fantasy perspective, Rose has exceeded modest expectations this season, due in large part because he has been able to stay healthy for the most of the year.

 
 
Source: New York Post
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I, for one, am shocked Rose is looking for the biggest payday possible. 

 
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Lonzo Ball is going to be a franchise player...he is one of the more talented players I have seen at his age...he is in full control of the whole game...have not seen Fultz play yet this year but if he is being touted as going ahead of Ball he most be very legit...I would love to see Ball in a Celtics uniform next year...I think he is going to be an excellent NBA player immediately...Ball and Jaylen Brown on the fast-break could be a deadly combo for years...

 
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