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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (1 Viewer)

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Poke_4_Life said:
Say what?  Westbrook has always hit the boards.  Always in the right place at the right time for rebounds.  I'm not sure how the Thunder can be considered 'funneling rebounds to Westbrook'.  He's always been the best rebounding guard in the league, just because he's willing to put in the effort to get the rebounds.  

Oh, and Westbrook definitely sucks on D most of the time.  He can play D when he wants to, and used to play D regularly, but he does not give an F about D now.  I kinda of understand that given his usage rate and carrying the entire offensive load for the team.  Plus he just lets his man go by him and then trails him to get the rebound.  More 'stat padding'.
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Here is a good read about his uncontested rebounding and stat padding.

 
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i think what giannis anteaternintendo is about do to is pretty impressive too bromigos he is on pace to be the first player ever in the history of nba to be in the top 20 in points rebounds assists steals and blocks in the same season that right there is pretty bromazing if you ask me take that to the bank brohans

 
Cliff Clavin said:
Here is a good read
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I can't argue with the stats, but as a Thunder fan I think's it all a plan to get the ball in RW's hands faster, not to pad rebounding numbers.  RW runs the team and having him get the DREB speeds up the transition game and jump starts the offense.  

I really don't think RW cares about triple doubles as much as winning.  That may be fan-boy bias, but he works his ### off every game and is the sole reason the Thunder aren't tanking currently with the other half of the league.

 
Poke_4_Life said:
I can't argue with the stats, but as a Thunder fan I think's it all a plan to get the ball in RW's hands faster, not to pad rebounding numbers.  RW runs the team and having him get the DREB speeds up the transition game and jump starts the offense.  

I really don't think RW cares about triple doubles as much as winning.  That may be fan-boy bias, but he works his ### off every game and is the sole reason the Thunder aren't tanking currently with the other half of the league.
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Right, its just that they aren't nearly as impressive as they seem on the surface. It is a team scheme designed to get him the ball to initiate the offence, not to pad his stats... that just a nice by-product for your star player.

I kind of disagree that he doesn't care about his triple doubles. Completely unsubstantiated opinion: he knew damn well going into this season that OKC wasn't winning a thing so his goal was average a triple double... if the search function worked I'd link to where I said that at the start of the season. He absolutely works his ### off (on offence) and there is nothing wrong with settings goals like that.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
Right, its just that they aren't nearly as impressive as they seem on the surface. It is a team scheme designed to get him the ball to initiate the offence, not to pad his stats... that just a nice by-product for your star player.

I kind of disagree that he doesn't care about his triple doubles. Completely unsubstantiated opinion: he knew damn well going into this season that OKC wasn't winning a thing so his goal was average a triple double... if the search function worked I'd link to where I said that at the start of the season. He absolutely works his ### off (on offence) and there is nothing wrong with settings goals like that.
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I didn't say he doesn't care about triple doubles, I just think he cares about winning more.   :D

 
For as much attention as people are paying to the Westbrook triple-double thing, I think it's kind of weird that people are totally ignoring the fact that Harden is leading the league in assists while being second in the league in scoring.

I did a little googling trying to figure out if anyone in the last 30 years or so has been top three in both categories but couldn't find anyone (other than Westbrook of course, currently 3rd in assists), although I had to scroll through a lot of stories about Nate Archibald leading the league in both categories back in 72-73 and I got bored and lazy after about ten minutes.  Meanwhile Harden is first in one and second in the other.  

 
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also the bangos beat the celtics last night and i have decided that smart may be in the kevin garnett craposphere as far as being a cheapshot artists take that to the bank brohans 

 
They're both amazing. 

Westbrook's effort last night was so forceful. Incredible to watch. You'd think it was game 7 of the finals, not game 75 against some scrub ### team. 

 
Capella said:
They're both amazing. 

Westbrook's effort last night was so forceful. Incredible to watch. You'd think it was game 7 of the finals, not game 75 against some scrub ### team. 
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That's RW every single night.  Its a treat to watch over the season.  Until he shoots 4 for 50 and has 50 turnovers in the second night of a b2b.

 
i do not root for neckbeard because he is a flop artist of the first rank his numero uno move is to throw himself in to a guy near him and fake like he was really making that move while shooting but i respect what he has accomplished same for westbrook they are both stat beasts and this year i actually do feel like neckbeard has made others on his team better which i would not have said last year so who knows maybe he is a great guy and would be awesome to have a beer with or maybe when he was drinking the beer he would throw himself in to you when you were just sittin there and try to get the bartender to call a foul on you but hey it is what it is take that to the bank brohans 

 
SWC said:
i do not root for neckbeard because he is a flop artist of the first rank his numero uno move is to throw himself in to a guy near him and fake like he was really making that move while shooting but i respect what he has accomplished same for westbrook they are both stat beasts and this year i actually do feel like neckbeard has made others on his team better which i would not have said last year so who knows maybe he is a great guy and would be awesome to have a beer with or maybe when he was drinking the beer he would throw himself in to you when you were just sittin there and try to get the bartender to call a foul on you but hey it is what it is take that to the bank brohans 
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Not enough likes for this.

 
Poke_4_Life said:
I can't argue with the stats, but as a Thunder fan I think's it all a plan to get the ball in RW's hands faster, not to pad rebounding numbers.  RW runs the team and having him get the DREB speeds up the transition game and jump starts the offense.  

I really don't think RW cares about triple doubles as much as winning.  That may be fan-boy bias, but he works his ### off every game and is the sole reason the Thunder aren't tanking currently with the other half of the league.
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The link Cliff posted pretty much refutes this and explains that it results in only 0.5 ppg advantage for the Thunder. Did you gloss over the fact the Westbrook is the WORST perimeter defender in the league? He has the FEWEST total shots contested, he has the 3rd least 3 pt shots contested  (sandwiched between rim protecting bigs), and the worst FG% against. He flat out ignores defense to grab rebounds. If he paid attention to defense I'm sure that would more than make up for that 0.5 ppg they lose if he scaled back rebounds.

Like someone mentioned...there's 4 legit candidates...so we HAVE to split hairs. I used to be RUSS 4 MVP until I read the post Cliff linked....it confirmed a lot of what people thought about Russ's game. I'm not hating what he does on offense....because he has to, but his defensive effort is a detriment to his team.

1. Kawhi is an elite two way player. His defense isn't as good as last year? Maybe, but he's still a All-defense and DPOY candidate to go along with an MVP candidate.

2. Harden is having an all-time offensive season with better efficiency, but he's only averaging 8 rebounds, so 29/8/11 doesn't look as cool as 30/10/10.

3. Westbrook. 30/10/10. I'll give him his due.

4. LBJ one of his best seasons...crazy at 32, but the others have been just a bit better.

 
Things look bleak for the Lakers finishing in the bottom 2. Of games you could imagine a way for them to somehow win, they've got the Woves x2, the Pelicans and the Kings left on the schedule. Phoenix has the Wolves, the Mavs and the Kings left.

Nuts.

 
Charlie Harper said:
2. Harden is having an all-time offensive season with better efficiency, but he's only averaging 8 rebounds, so 29/8/11 doesn't look as cool as 30/10/10.
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Yup.  This is the part I think is silly- it's not like Westbrook is Dennis Rodman on the boards and Harden is Nick Young. They're not that different when it comes to rebounding, and Harden appears to be better in almost every other facet of the game: barely trailing him in PPG while scoring much more efficiently, passing better (although Westbrook turns it over a little less) by all accounts playing better defense, etc. while playing for the better team.

But then I remember that the primary ball handler in a D'Antoni offense almost always puts up absurd assist numbers, so maybe we should discount that.

And then eventually I just get tired and decide it doesn't matter because LeBron is the MVP every season until he retires.

 
TobiasFunke said:
For as much attention as people are paying to the Westbrook triple-double thing, I think it's kind of weird that people are totally ignoring the fact that Harden is leading the league in assists while being second in the league in scoring.

I did a little googling trying to figure out if anyone in the last 30 years or so has been top three in both categories but couldn't find anyone (other than Westbrook of course, currently 3rd in assists), although I had to scroll through a lot of stories about Nate Archibald leading the league in both categories back in 72-73 and I got bored and lazy after about ten minutes.  Meanwhile Harden is first in one and second in the other.  
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ESPN stole your idea...

ESPN Stats & Info‏Verified account @ESPNStatsInfo  3m3 minutes ago

James Harden: 2nd in #NBA in pts, 1st in ast Only players to rank top-2 in each in a season: Tiny Archibald, Oscar Robertson, Bob Cousy

 
Charlie Harper said:
1. Kawhi is an elite two way player. His defense isn't as good as last year? Maybe, but he's still a All-defense and DPOY candidate to go along with an MVP candidate.
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:no:

DPOY is a two horse race between Gobert and Draymond.

Defensive Real Plus/Minus  Gobert (1st), Green (2nd), Leonard (120th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: Green (1st), Gobert (3rd), Leonard (39th)

Defensive Points Saved: Green (1st), Gobert (2nd); Leonard (56th)

Defensive On/Off Swing: Gobert (7.9); Green(5.7); Leonard (-7.9)

 
Short Corner said:
:no:

DPOY is a two horse race between Gobert and Draymond.

Defensive Real Plus/Minus  Gobert (1st), Green (2nd), Leonard (120th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus: Green (1st), Gobert (3rd), Leonard (39th)

Defensive Points Saved: Green (1st), Gobert (2nd); Leonard (56th)

Defensive On/Off Swing: Gobert (7.9); Green(5.7); Leonard (-7.9)
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Yah there's something crazy with those on/off numbers for Kawhi, but he still passes the eye test and the Spurs are still a top defensive team. 

 
Gr00vus said:
Things look bleak for the Lakers finishing in the bottom 2. Of games you could imagine a way for them to somehow win, they've got the Woves x2, the Pelicans and the Kings left on the schedule. Phoenix has the Wolves, the Mavs and the Kings left.

Nuts.
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They also face GS last game of the year that is going to mean nothing to the Warriors.

Suns do not face Minnesota. Good chance Phoenix loses its next 5 (LAC, @POR, HOU, GSW, OKC). 

 
rodg12 said:
ESPN stole your idea...

ESPN Stats & Info‏Verified account @ESPNStatsInfo  3m3 minutes ago

James Harden: 2nd in #NBA in pts, 1st in ast Only players to rank top-2 in each in a season: Tiny Archibald, Oscar Robertson, Bob Cousy
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And only one player has averaged a triple double for the entire season, until this year.

 
Poke_4_Life said:
And only one player has averaged a triple double for the entire season, until this year.
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The flaw here is it attaches value to arbitrary benchmarks and particular statistics. As this Deadspin article points out, John Wall is likely going to be the first player in NBA history to average 20 points, 10 assists and 0.6 blocks per game (and he's also second in the league in steals).  But nobody's arguing that Wall deserves the MVP for doing something unprecedented from a statistical standpoint, even though chasedown blocks in transition (Wall's specialty) are probably more valuable than uncontested defensive rebounds that a team allows its PG to gather for strategic purposes.

I'm not arguing Westbrook doesn't deserve MVP, or that Wall does. I'm just saying there's nothing magical about a statistic just because it has an extra digit. If Westbrook were averaging 8 boards and Harden 6 instead of 10 vs 8 it would be exactly the same in terms of their value, but it would just a be a minor point in the debate instead of the main one.

 
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IMO (not that anyone cares), Westbrook ranks a clear #3 in the MVP race.

I feel like in today's NBA, it is much more valuable to be among the best in the league in both offense and defense rather than being the best in offense and merely good on defense.  I also feel that team record should matter, unless your team has multiple mvp candidates like GS.  So I'd rank them:

1. Kawhi -  amazing on both ends of the floor and the clear best player on a top two team

2. Harden - playing transcendent offense, defense ok but has improved, team has strong record

3. Westbrook - Also playing transcendent offense, similar defensive impact (I feel like his defensive stats are inflated by rebounds) and team record meaningfully worse than Harden.

4. James - The worst PER of the bunch, team record 3rd best despite being in easiest division, not having his best statistical season but, like Leonard, among the best at both ends of the floor (a notch below Kawhi on both imo)

Just my simplistic take on this.

 
My two local newspaper guys: Tim Kawakami and Marcus Thompson like Harden as MVP. They made many of the same points we've discussed, but a new one I heard is that more of Harden's teammates are having career seasons compared to Russ and Kahwi. Harden makes his teammates better while Russ and Kahwi are simply turning in monster individual seasons. Granted D'Antoni has something to do with it...but it's still up to the players to execute. I think that's a pretty strong argument I hadn't thought of before.

 
H

Charlie Harper said:
My two local newspaper guys: Tim Kawakami and Marcus Thompson like Harden as MVP. They made many of the same points we've discussed, but a new one I heard is that more of Harden's teammates are having career seasons compared to Russ and Kahwi. Harden makes his teammates better while Russ and Kahwi are simply turning in monster individual seasons. Granted D'Antoni has something to do with it...but it's still up to the players to execute. I think that's a pretty strong argument I hadn't thought of before.
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Big Kawakami fan but that seems like an especially subjective argument. I suppose they all are though. Those guys are just better at basketball than Westbrook's teammates. I'd vote for Harden but imo he and Westbrook are the top 2 going away. Kawhi is amazing but playing for the Spurs is cheating. 

 
Charlie Harper said:
My two local newspaper guys: Tim Kawakami and Marcus Thompson like Harden as MVP. They made many of the same points we've discussed, but a new one I heard is that more of Harden's teammates are having career seasons compared to Russ and Kahwi. Harden makes his teammates better while Russ and Kahwi are simply turning in monster individual seasons. Granted D'Antoni has something to do with it...but it's still up to the players to execute. I think that's a pretty strong argument I hadn't thought of before.
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Who is having a career year with the Rockets? Ariza, Gordon, Beverley, and Anderson are all about in line with career norms. You could say Capela, Harrell, and Dekker are having career years, but that is to be expected at 22 or 23 years old in their second and third years. That isn't really a fair comparison with Leonard who is mostly playing with a very veteran team, you wouldn't expect Gasol or Aldridge to have a career year post-30. Westbrook's teammates aren't really suffering from the loss of Kevin Durant and all of them are at about career norms other than Adams (steadily improving) and Jerami Grant (usage way down, efficiency way up), I think that probably says more for Westbrook than a few 22 year olds getting better with Harden.

 
The "teammate career year" argument gives me my second opportunity in 12 hours to throw John Wall into the mix.  Career years across the board.  Notable NBA dork Jason Smith is having a career year at 30, leads the NBA in midrange shooting while literally doubling his career total in made 3s.  Bogdanovic's eFG went up 40 points from his early season numbers w the Nets/his career numbers. Otto Porter is 5th in the NBA in eFG, behind four centers.  I don't think these are coincidences.

He won't and shouldn't win, I just wanted to post about how awesome he is.

BTW other fun facts I learned from looking at eFG among qualified players:

-The three other non-big men in the top 10 are Durant, LeBron and Gary Harris.

-Seth Curry (11th) is currently ahead of Steph Curry (12th).

-Not sure how I missed this but Pau Gasol is attempting 1.5 threes a game and hitting at a 53% clip, which bumps his 36 year old ### up to an amazing 24th in eFG.

-Moe Harkless is shooting 56% from two?

 
Good Posting Judge said:
Or maybe he just sucks.
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I know you're being sarcastic, but I looked into the numbers a bit more comparing to other starters (MIN 20 GP, starters,  amd/or > or = 28 mpg)...

DEFLECTIONS: 3.5 per game (7th)

LOOSE BALLS RECOVERED: 1.3 (5th)

CONTESTED SHOTS: 6.6 per game (71st/116)

FG% AGAINST: 44.8 (expected 45.7%), DIFFERENCE OF: -0.9%, so he does decrease FG%.

OPP FGA: 9.2 (136th/192)

Compared to others who shoulder the same load....

Kawhi: 6.6/9.2 = 71.7% CONTEST, 44.8% (45.7%) = - 0.9%, DFL: 3.5, LBR: 1.3

Lebron: 6.8/11.2 = 60.7% CONTEST, 41.9% (45.7%) = - 3.8%, DFL: 2.3, LBR: 1.1

Giannis: 10.2/11.9 = 85.7% CONTEST, 42.5% (46.3%) = -3.7%, DFL: 2.7, LBR: 1.3

George: 8.6/12 = 71.7% CONTEST, 45.7% (45.5%) = +0.2%, DFL: 3.1, LBR 1.3 

Butler: 5.4/10.2 = 52.9% CONTEST,  5.4, 43.4% (45.9%) = -2.6%, DFL 3.6, LBR 1.2

So individually his numbers still say he's a + defender though not as good as Lebron, Butler, and GIANNIS!! Despite the on/off numbers not looking good....overall Kahwi's  team is still #1 in DEF RTG.

With this info...I'll move Harden to my #1 MVP spot ahead of Kahwi.

 
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Charlie Harper said:
I know you're being sarcastic, but I looked into the numbers a bit more comparing to other starters (MIN 20 GP, starters,  amd/or > or = 28 mpg)...

DEFLECTIONS: 3.5 per game (7th)

LOOSE BALLS RECOVERED: 1.3 (5th)

CONTESTED SHOTS: 6.6 per game (71st/116)

FG% AGAINST: 44.8 (expected 45.7%), DIFFERENCE OF: -0.9%, so he does decrease FG%.

OPP FGA: 9.2 (136th/192)

Compared to others who shoulder the same load....

Kawhi: 6.6/9.2 = 71.7% CONTEST, 44.8% (45.7%) = - 0.9%, DFL: 3.5, LBR: 1.3

Lebron: 6.8/11.2 = 60.7% CONTEST, 41.9% (45.7%) = - 3.8%, DFL: 2.3, LBR: 1.1

Antetokounmpo: 10.2/11.9 = 85.7% CONTEST, 42.5% (46.3%) = -3.7%, DFL: 2.7, LBR: 1.3

Paul George: 8.6/12 = 71.7% CONTEST, 45.7% (45.5%) = +0.2%, DFL: 3.1, LBR 1.3 

Jimmy Butler: 5.4/10.2 = 52.9% CONTEST,  5.4, 43.4% (45.9%) = -2.6%, DFL 3.6, LBR 1.2

So individually his numbers still say he's a + defender though not as good as Lebron, Butler, and GIANNIS!! Despite the on/off numbers not looking good....overall Kahwi's  team is still #1 in DEF RTG.
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I was being silly. I think he's carrying a star-level load on offense, and it's near-impossible to do that and be a DPOY-level defender. He very may well consciously be dialing it down a couple notches during the regular season.

 
Only 7 players in NBA history had more CAREER triple-doubles than Westbrook has this season (Oscar, Magic, Kidd, Wilt, Bird, LeBron, Lever)

 
I agree that it is a little surprising, but he is 38th all time in MVP award shares.  All but one of the players in the top 40 is a hall of famer and most of the top 100 is.

 
A few weeks ago Denver seemed like the likely 8 seed in the West. Now Portland has a firm hold on it.

Still a pretty good race in the East between Chicago, Miami and Indiana. I'm guessing Indiana will be left out.

 
shadyridr said:
So not one person thinks Tracy mcgrady making the hof is an April fools joke?
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McGrady is a 7 time all-NBA player and had some truly ridiculous years from 2000-2005 (finishing top 10 in scoring for 6 straight years). Being one of the only 10 or so successful high school to the pros helps his case too, IMO. Definitely a HOF player to me

 
Jonathan Simmons is such a nice player. I'm a Spurs fan first, but I hope somebody comes along and gives this kid an offer that the Spurs won't match.

 
sports_fan said:
A few weeks ago Denver seemed like the likely 8 seed in the West. Now Portland has a firm hold on it.

Still a pretty good race in the East between Chicago, Miami and Indiana. I'm guessing Indiana will be left out.
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Might have to throw the Hawks in with those three. 

Doesn't feel like either team has missed a shot in the second overtime of this IND-CLE game. George had a chance to win it at the end of OT but could only make 1 of 2 FTs. Would have been a big win. 

 
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