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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (1 Viewer)

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Kev4029 said:
Wiggins is making 35.6% of his threes and the league average is 35.8%. He's not somebody with a ton of gravity but he's taking 3.5 threes a game and making them at a high enough percentage to have his defender respect his ability. The bigger issue is Rubio or Dunn's man sagging way off and clogging the lane and the other perimeter players mostly being terrible (LaVine excluded).
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So in sum, he's made a big leap this year to be a league average three point shooter, has a 16.5 PER on 29% usage, is allergic to passing, and is a bad defender?  Sign me up. 

 
Long Ball Larry said:
Apparently Ben Simmons has grown 2 inches this year.  Pretty nifty.
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So supposedly the source for this was that World B. Free saw Simmons and thought that he looked 2 inches taller.  Somehow, that got to a local radio host and he tweeted it out, which then became a Yahoo story.

Greatest story ever.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
Don't think so but I'm not 100% sure. I think winning % vs the teams tied and the Cavs owned both Toronto and Boston this year. Toronto does have the tiebreak vs Boston. 
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only thing I wonder about though is how they do a three-way tie now that divisions don't matter.  Or if they would still break the division tie first, then go to the TOR-CLE tiebreaker.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
only thing I wonder about though is how they do a three-way tie now that divisions don't matter.  Or if they would still break the division tie first, then go to the TOR-CLE tiebreaker.
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Cavs are 3-1 vs Boston and 3-0 vs Toronto.

b. More Than Two Teams Tied

(1) Better winning percentage in all games among the tied teams.

(2) Better winning percentage against teams in own division (only if all tied teams are in the same division).

(3) Better winning percentage against teams in own conference.

(4) Better winning percentage against teams eligible for playoffs in own conference (including teams that finished the regular season tied for a playoff position).

(5) Better net result of total points scored less total points allowed against all opponents ("point differential").

 
Cavs are the biggest Jekyll/Hyde team ever.  No clue what I'm seeing night in and night out.

Making the Finals would be a miracle at this point.

 
wadegarrett said:
Cavs are the biggest Jekyll/Hyde team ever.  No clue what I'm seeing night in and night out.

Making the Finals would be a miracle at this point.
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:no:  Come on!  LeBron has made the finals what 6 straight seasons now?  And it's not like there's a legit challenger in the East this season.

 
Niles Standish said:
:no:  Come on!  LeBron has made the finals what 6 straight seasons now?  And it's not like there's a legit challenger in the East this season.
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toronto and boston are reasonable especially considering the way that Cleveland's defense has been this year, but yes, to say making the finals would be a miracle is pretty outlandish.

 
Insein said:
Anyway, Westbrook breaking the triple double record. That's pretty good. 
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My gut feeling is that Westbrook's season is being overrated.

Westbrook is averaging 31.0 ppg, 10.4 apg, 10.7 rpg, 1.7 spg, 0.4 bpg, and 5.5 topg. He is shooting .424 while leading the NBA in FGAs by a huge margin (almost 25%). His eFG% is .475. The shooting and turnovers have to negate his triple double stats to some degree.

However, Harden has similar flaws, shooting .440 and averaging 5.7 topg. And, while I think Lebron and Leonard are better, it seems hard to make the case for either of them over Westbrook based on numbers.

 
Just Win Baby said:
My gut feeling is that Westbrook's season is being overrated.

Westbrook is averaging 31.0 ppg, 10.4 apg, 10.7 rpg, 1.7 spg, 0.4 bpg, and 5.5 topg. He is shooting .424 while leading the NBA in FGAs by a huge margin (almost 25%). His eFG% is .475. The shooting and turnovers have to negate his triple double stats to some degree.

However, Harden has similar flaws, shooting .440 and averaging 5.7 topg. And, while I think Lebron and Leonard are better, it seems hard to make the case for either of them over Westbrook based on numbers.
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The best case for Westbrook is one that I hardly ever see made: He's dragged what would be one of the worst offenses in the NBA to league-average, pretty much by himself. His percentages aren't great, but that's because his usage is ridiculously sky-high, which is because, well, the rest of his team is butt on offense.

That said, he's giving some of that back on the other end of the floor.

 
Just Win Baby said:
My gut feeling is that Westbrook's season is being overrated.

Westbrook is averaging 31.0 ppg, 10.4 apg, 10.7 rpg, 1.7 spg, 0.4 bpg, and 5.5 topg. He is shooting .424 while leading the NBA in FGAs by a huge margin (almost 25%). His eFG% is .475. The shooting and turnovers have to negate his triple double stats to some degree.

However, Harden has similar flaws, shooting .440 and averaging 5.7 topg. And, while I think Lebron and Leonard are better, it seems hard to make the case for either of them over Westbrook based on numbers.
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The record for turnovers was set this year by Harden with 455, beating his NBA record of 374 (the ABA had a LOT of turnovers, McGinnis holds their record with 422). Westbrook isn't far behind with 434.

One thing you missed in your Westbrook bashing is that his TS% is .555, which is a career high for him and also above league average. The rest of the team has a TS% of .535. He is dragging a 20 win team to the 6th seed in a competitive Western Conference.

 
Kev4029 said:
The record for turnovers was set this year by Harden with 455, beating his NBA record of 374 (the ABA had a LOT of turnovers, McGinnis holds their record with 422). Westbrook isn't far behind with 434.

One thing you missed in your Westbrook bashing is that his TS% is .555, which is a career high for him and also above league average. The rest of the team has a TS% of .535. He is dragging a 20 win team to the 6th seed in a competitive Western Conference.
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I can remember a time not long ago when everyone from Zach Lowe to every poster in the FFA would tell me that there was no way that Durant would leave OKC for DC (or any other non-contender) because the talent surrounding him in OKC was vastly superior.  Then they completed a trade that in retrospect they clearly won. But that rock-solid foundation is now apparently just Russell Westbrook and twelve bums.

If I had a vote I'd probably vote Westbrook, but I think people are getting a little carried away with the "he carried an otherwise terrible team to the 6 seed and 46+ wins" argument.  The talent isn't that bad.  Eleven months ago Oladipo was the leading scorer on the Magic and Enes Kanter and Steven Adams were both high ceiling young big guys having huge postseasons.

Also I generally don't like the "where would they be without him" argument. I think pretty much every great player- including some not even under serious consideration for MVP- would give a similar lift if you added them to an otherwise weak roster.

 
TobiasFunke said:
I can remember a time not long ago when everyone from Zach Lowe to every poster in the FFA would tell me that there was no way that Durant would leave OKC for DC (or any other non-contender) because the talent surrounding him in OKC was vastly superior.  Then they completed a trade that in retrospect they clearly won. But that rock-solid foundation is now apparently just Russell Westbrook and twelve bums.

If I had a vote I'd probably vote Westbrook, but I think people are getting a little carried away with the "he carried an otherwise terrible team to the 6 seed and 46+ wins" argument.  The talent isn't that bad.  Eleven months ago Oladipo was the leading scorer on the Magic and Enes Kanter and Steven Adams were both high ceiling young big guys having huge postseasons.

Also I generally don't like the "where would they be without him" argument. I think pretty much every great player- including some not even under serious consideration for MVP- would give a similar lift if you added them to an otherwise weak roster.
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The Oladipo trade was not done to give them more talent in 2016-17. Ibaka is a vastly superior player to Oladipo and Sabonis (who sucks). They just didn't want to pay him a max contract when he was in decline and he might actually be in his 30's.

And the team around Durant was awesome, especially when you had two elite scorers. Adams is a nice defensive big who can score a little when things are open for him. Roberson is a premier defender, but can't score. Ibaka was a great complement to the rest of the team with his defense and jump shooting (I'm on record in bashing Oladipo, that trade was a downgrade for OKC done so they didn't have to pay Ibaka a max contract when he might actually already be in his 30's). Nobody ever though much of Kanter because he may be the worst defender in the NBA but the Thunder were forced to overpay him because they didn't have the means to find a replacement.The bench was an issue, but that starting 5 was as good as anybody's.

Once they lost arguably the best scorer in the NBA and Ibaka, they went from a great team to Westbrook and a bunch of trash, because the whole team was built around having two premier scorers and a stretch big man that could defend. They replaced those two with Oladipo and Sabonis. That is a HUGE step down from a top 5 player to an inefficient should-be-6th-Man and a top 10-12 power forward to a player who shouldn't have received any playing time. The rest of the team good as the complements to the second or third best trio in the NBA, but when relied upon more heavily, they are a bad group of supporting players.

 
TobiasFunke said:
I can remember a time not long ago when everyone from Zach Lowe to every poster in the FFA would tell me that there was no way that Durant would leave OKC for DC (or any other non-contender) because the talent surrounding him in OKC was vastly superior.
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A couple things here.

1) The talent in OKC surrounding him was Russell Westbrook. I mean, Ibaka was nice and all, but the reason the talent around him was so good was because of Russell.

2) Your Bullet persecution complex is raging these days good buddy. Enjoy the fact that Wall is playing awesome and there is a decent chance your team makes it to the ECF.

 
Kev4029 said:
The Oladipo trade was not done to give them more talent in 2016-17. Ibaka is a vastly superior player to Oladipo and Sabonis (who sucks). They just didn't want to pay him a max contract when he was in decline and he might actually be in his 30's.

And the team around Durant was awesome, especially when you had two elite scorers. Adams is a nice defensive big who can score a little when things are open for him. Roberson is a premier defender, but can't score. Ibaka was a great complement to the rest of the team with his defense and jump shooting (I'm on record in bashing Oladipo, that trade was a downgrade for OKC done so they didn't have to pay Ibaka a max contract when he might actually already be in his 30's). Nobody ever though much of Kanter because he may be the worst defender in the NBA but the Thunder were forced to overpay him because they didn't have the means to find a replacement.The bench was an issue, but that starting 5 was as good as anybody's.

Once they lost arguably the best scorer in the NBA and Ibaka, they went from a great team to Westbrook and a bunch of trash, because the whole team was built around having two premier scorers and a stretch big man that could defend. They replaced those two with Oladipo and Sabonis. That is a HUGE step down from a top 5 player to an inefficient should-be-6th-Man and a top 10-12 power forward to a player who shouldn't have received any playing time. The rest of the team good as the complements to the second or third best trio in the NBA, but when relied upon more heavily, they are a bad group of supporting players.
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I dunno, this just strikes me as a post hoc justification. Talented role players are talented role players.  If they couldn't adapt and find a way to offer solid contributions with just one superstar on the roster, how is that a positive attribute for the superstar?

Also like I said I'm generally not a fan of the "where would they be without him" argument for teams that end up where the Thunder are going to end up. I don't approve of any criteria that would conclude that Jimmy Butler, Anthony Davis, John Wall and Paul George have been more valuable over the last few seasons than Kevin Durant and Steph Curry.

ETA: I should clarify again that I'm totally good with Westbrook as MVP.  Just not sure I buy some of the arguments in favor.  Don't like the "dragged an otherwise terrible team" argument, don't like the "OMG triple double!" argument.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka (2012) --> Westbrook-Oladipo-Adams-Kanter (2017)

Kendrick Perkins (2017) Out of League. Will forever amaze me.

 
It's tough enough being a Clipper fan without the FFA piling on. BTW, they'll be eliminated in the 2nd round via simultaneous femur fractures... yes, the whole team.

 
TobiasFunke said:
I dunno, this just strikes me as a post hoc justification. Talented role players are talented role players.  If they couldn't adapt and find a way to offer solid contributions with just one superstar on the roster, how is that a positive attribute for the superstar?

Also like I said I'm generally not a fan of the "where would they be without him" argument for teams that end up where the Thunder are going to end up. I don't approve of any criteria that would conclude that Jimmy Butler, Anthony Davis, John Wall and Paul George have been more valuable over the last few seasons than Kevin Durant and Steph Curry.

ETA: I should clarify again that I'm totally good with Westbrook as MVP.  Just not sure I buy some of the arguments in favor.  Don't like the "dragged an otherwise terrible team" argument, don't like the "OMG triple double!" argument.
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The point isn't that they aren't talented role players now, its that they are no long role players because their role has expanded. If they had replaced Durant and Ibaka with legitimate second and third options that played D, the supporting cast would still be fine. But they replaced Kevin Durant, consensus top 3 player in the NBA, and Serge Ibaka, with Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis, and somehow it is Westbrook's fault that Anthony Morrow or Jerami Grant didn't pick up the slack?

 
ESPN has an excerpt of the McMenamin/Windhorst book Return of the King up for free.  It's the chapter on his summer 2015 free agency. Great lunchtime read.

link

 
Kev4029 said:
The point isn't that they aren't talented role players now, its that they are no long role players because their role has expanded. If they had replaced Durant and Ibaka with legitimate second and third options that played D, the supporting cast would still be fine. But they replaced Kevin Durant, consensus top 3 player in the NBA, and Serge Ibaka, with Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis, and somehow it is Westbrook's fault that Anthony Morrow or Jerami Grant didn't pick up the slack?
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I wouldn't say that. I would say Westbrook deserves a little blame for Oladipo and others not really improving their numbers significantly.  Theoretically an all-world PG who doubles as the league's leading scorer and who rebounds and immediately transitions into running the break should be generating wide open looks for everyone, but Oladipo is shooting the same percentages he did when he was the #1 option in Orlando.

But that's a nit, and I could pick them about every player. I love Westbrook and if I had an MVP vote he'd get it.  Even if you set aside the statistical debate, he's the most compelling player in the league this regular season by far, and that matters. I was more criticizing the "where would this team be without him" argument.  Yeah, I'm sure they'd suck.  But so would [insert playoff team other than the Warriors] if they didn't have [insert best player].

 
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