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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away

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wilked said:
I assume that means you would trade Fultz for Butler.

So far the list is 

1. Capella

2. MSUDaisy
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in a second, if Stevens thinks he can integrate a ready-made star. the priorities are coach>>>>>#2 option>>cap>>inside presence. i'm still hoping the Brow decides he'd rather have a Mr Outside than another Mr Inside and talks the bigdumboids into sending us Boogie for him.

here's my flimsy evidence on Fultz: dont think NCAA ball is much better than WNBA, so only watch Final Four & games w multiiple mockdraftees. got a phone call while watching TV one nite late last yr, so i switched the channel to just any game. Turned out to be UWash against nobody. knew the Huskies had the allthetalk player. watched the entire 1st half while chatting and couldnt figure out who the star of the team was and couldnt believe it when they said it was #20 when i got off the phone. not good. Fultz sat w a Boston media guy yesterday and saw a kid a lot more like John Wall than IT - all mybrand, millenial dulless of affect & no fire. Dunno about Paul George cuz i think he's on the path to becoming another 'Melo, but i'll ship this kid for Boogie or Butler in the time it takes a townie to soil a slewbangah

 
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I don't want to get into the fine arts of hot takery here, but it should be noted that Washington went 2-16 in the garbage Pac-10 with this guy. At least if we are discussing him on the terms of a transformative player.  

 
I wouldn't trade #1 for Butler mainly because I don't think we're a championship team with Butler.

That analysis might change if we bring in a big name FA.

 
Niles Standish said:
I wouldn't trade #1 for Butler mainly because I don't think we're a championship team with Butler.

That analysis might change if we bring in a big name FA.
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i dont think the pick is going anywhere and no longer believe Ainge had any intention of shipping it out ever. his scenario is IT, Hayward, Horford the maxies and his 3 Jerseypic boys on rookie contracts and maybe a breaktrough Euro rounding out a championship team. hope Fultz and whatever big they get next yr is better than trumphandsnocourtsense Brown....

 
I would love boogie still. Maybe #1 this and next year, along with Horford. Only assuming Boogie is willing to sign long term. Then just move Kelly into the starting 4.

 
SWC said:
i will smack anyone in the face who bee smirches cappys titles again those things are solid gold and i aint talkin about the tv dance phenomonon bromigos take that to the bank 
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Smack away.  It not only lacks the funny, it's pretty stupid.

 
GOB said:
I would trade Fultz for Butler if I was Boston.

Windows come and go, I would rather take my shot now. 
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With James and GS around, there's really no window right now. I'd deal Thomas now while he's hot and move the window out 3 years or so. Roll the dice on becoming what the Warriors are now right when the guys on top now start falling off.

 
Gr00vus said:
With James and GS around, there's really no window right now. I'd deal Thomas now while he's hot and move the window out 3 years or so. Roll the dice on becoming what the Warriors are now right when the guys on top now start falling off.
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I've thought about this a lot, cuz i been a Celts fan since Cousy and i got as much pleasure watching the Leprechaun (who is waaaay hurt/zonked right now - anyone who watched the whole season will tell you - which makes the Bullet win that much more amazing) this year as from any Bird or Russ season. If Brooks' players came close to doing what he asked them, that series dont go more than 5 games. IT plays hard even on D but, against any team where he has to defend, the Celts are in tough. Cant help but think that any team who pays $40mil/season for 5 yrs of any but 2 or 3 current players has mortgaged their chance at greatness, much as the Li'Fella has earned it. 

 
wikkidpissah said:
 IT plays hard even on D but, against any team where he has to defend, the Celts are in tough. Cant help but think that any team who pays $40mil/season for 5 yrs of any but 2 or 3 current players has mortgaged their chance at greatness, much as the Li'Fella has earned it. 
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Agreed. Granted the cap just keeps going up, so yesterday's awful contract becomes today's bad contract, but I don't see Thomas as a championship franchise centerpiece. You can't build your cap structure that way and have it lead to a long term dynasty. And (unfortunately for us Laker fans) if the C's play this right they have a real opportunity to put a dynasty type roster together with all the assets and flexibility they currently have.

 
While all the speculation and rumors are great whatever Ainge does I am onboard with...he has earned that...as for IT I will take a guy who averages close to 30 a game, has balls of steel in the fourth quarter and has turned into a team leader while also doing nothing but help his team improve since he got acquired...sure he has some limitations but once they acquire another legit scorer (and they will) than the opposing defense won't be able to zero in on him and he becomes that much more of a weapon...in a perfect world he would be 6'5" but Danny likes his scorers and right now IT is one of the better ones in the NBA....

 
Gr00vus said:
With James and GS around, there's really no window right now. I'd deal Thomas now while he's hot and move the window out 3 years or so. Roll the dice on becoming what the Warriors are now right when the guys on top now start falling off.
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I understand trying to wait out LeBron and the Warriors, but they would have a chance to beat those teams with Butler/George and a big free agent. 

Pushing the window out as you call it isn't guaranteed. Fultz might bust, Crowder, Brown the euro guys and next years pick have to not bust, then you have to pay those guys in a few years to keep them. 

I guess a great example is the early 2000 Pistons. It wasn't supposed to be their year in 04 and they were a 2nd tier contender until then. Not an actual threat to the Spurs, Lakers, T-Wolves, Nets and Pacers, but add a Rasheed Wallace and they won a title and almost another. The Celtics resemble that team. Go get your Rasheed Wallace. 

You can't move Thomas, he is a free agent and I am sure if they resign him he will have a no trade clause.

 
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Gr00vus said:
With James and GS around, there's really no window right now. I'd deal Thomas now while he's hot and move the window out 3 years or so. Roll the dice on becoming what the Warriors are now right when the guys on top now start falling off.
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That is loser talk. 

 
Boston said:
While all the speculation and rumors are great whatever Ainge does I am onboard with...he has earned that...as for IT I will take a guy who averages close to 30 a game, has balls of steel in the fourth quarter and has turned into a team leader while also doing nothing but help his team improve since he got acquired...sure he has some limitations but once they acquire another legit scorer (and they will) than the opposing defense won't be able to zero in on him and he becomes that much more of a weapon...in a perfect world he would be 6'5" but Danny likes his scorers and right now IT is one of the better ones in the NBA....
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Next yr will tell a lot, but if the Leprechaun (i wish Celtic Nation would stop worrying that it's somehow racist to call IT that because no athlete has embodied so obvious a moniker like he has this) comes close to duplicating this past season in '17-8, he has earned whatever he wants. That's where Ainge really earns his dough, talking IT into taking low-to-mid 30s on a 5yr for the well-being of the franchise or even doing like BB did with Hightower & others - convincing him he'll never get to play the quality of ball he will with Stevens and asking him to bring the best offer he gets on the open market back to them, But if the Li'l Guy matches this season in the next, he is the most unprecedented baller, outside of James, of the generation and i gotta give him what he asks as part of the fortune of sport.

 
wikkidpissah said:
Next yr will tell a lot, but if the Leprechaun (i wish Celtic Nation would stop worrying that it's somehow racist to call IT that because no athlete has embodied so obvious a moniker like he has this) comes close to duplicating this past season in '17-8, he has earned whatever he wants. That's where Ainge really earns his dough, talking IT into taking low-to-mid 30s on a 5yr for the well-being of the franchise or even doing like BB did with Hightower & others - convincing him he'll never get to play the quality of ball he will with Stevens and asking him to bring the best offer he gets on the open market back to them, But if the Li'l Guy matches this season in the next, he is the most unprecedented baller, outside of James, of the generation and i gotta give him what he asks as part of the fortune of sport.
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He is a great story, but this is going a little far.

 
Capella said:
BassNBrew said:
Smack away.  It not only lacks the funny, it's pretty stupid.
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You seem really angry. Are you Sam Hinkie or Dwight Howard?
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bassnbrew i like you man lets not have an internet fight cripes there is enough of that in the trump threads lets just all take up model railroading me you and cappy and we will call our new model railroad club the get along gang and northern and we can have meetings take that to the bank brochachos

 
i love everyone saying wait out the cavs and the dubs because right about the time you think bam we waited them out the bucks happen thats why brohans take that to the bank 

 
Gr00vus said:
Also their skill sets are very different. It's a really bad comparison.
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I wouldn't say "very" different, there are some distinct similarities, but there are also differences.  I've said before I think Rubio is Ball's floor, but he obviously has much more potential.

 
i would do whatever will make wilked get more worked up its funny like norm mcdonald in a big hat take that to the bank brohans 

 
wikkidpissah said:
stand by it - seen em all, this year was better than Zeke, AI, any small man has ever done on a basketball court
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I assume you left out John Stockton because he is clearly on a different level, right?  Better than both ITs combined.  

ps- Why do I see Lavar Ball's name on espn every single day?  Pretty sure it has become a joint venture.

 
Judge Smails said:
People are making too much out of the Dad.  Non issue.  On the court, Ball will bring free agents to LA.  EVERYONE wants to play with a great point guard.  Especially great shooters. Now you build around Ball and Ingram.  I still like Randle and think he's useful.  As are guys like Clarkson and Nance.  The big question is Russell.  If he gets a little killer attitude he can be a superstar.  Or he can be an underachiever.  I could see him being packaged in the right deal.  But the free agents will come back to LA.  Trust me on this.  Jim Buss gone.  Luke Walton in as coach.  Phenomenal young talent.  Now is the time.  Tonight was critical.  Very happy Laker fan here.
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I don't mean to poke at Lakers fans, but I read this on another team's site and it seems to be a little closer to what we can expect from the Lakers in the future. If it makes Lakers' fans feel better, i think the idea that Jaylen Brown in Boston showed tons of promise is even more silly then the idea that the Lakers have turned it all around:

from:  http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/5/17/15654022/why-la-will-be-horrible-next-year

First, we need to look at who the Lakers were this season. LA posted the WORST Net Rating in the entire NBA and by a solid margin. They actually over performed this year in winning 26 games, they have the statistical profile of a 22 win team. Much of this was thanks to a hot 10-10 start to the season. After that, they played at the pace of a 21 win team. Once things settled down, the Lakers played worse than anyone in the NBA. At least Brooklyn can say they only got 36 games of Jeremy Linn this year, arguably their best player, and he was stuck playing low minutes.

Furthermore, let's address where the little bit of success the Lakers had came from. LA got career years out of both Nick Young and Lou Williams, both of whom will not be on the team next year(Lou is already gone). These two were 3rd and 1st on the team in RPM respectively with Williams coming in as the NBA's 5th best SG and Young at 16. Without these two players on the court, LA played at the rate of a 7 win team! I personally find this to be the biggest takeaway here. That's just unbelievable, and an impending reality. They were the whole team, LA played like a 49 win team with the two of them on the court. That's how important these two guys were to their success, and neither will be there next year.

Simply put, going into this offseason LA is the worse team in the NBA by a long shot.

Now let's look at how the Lakers are supposed to improve.

Following the draft, their #2 and #28 picks will total ~$6.5mil in salary. With the cap at a projected $102mil, LA will only have ~$20mil in cap space and the days of that being worth much are long gone. They can in no way afford a max or even a real big name free agent, and at best can add two or three mediocre/poor vets off the bench. There is no way to magically improve in the realm of free agency really, and with Ball, Clarkson, Russell, Ingram, Randle, and Nance occupying the 1-4 and Magic's commitment to letting the young guys play, I don't see him rushing to spend cash anyway and tie up future cap space.

LA will not improve much, if at all, via free agency.

Next is the addition of Ball as a rookie, but how much of an impact do rookies ever really have? PG is the most loaded position in the NBA and PGs take time to adjust to the NBA game. Most rookies don't have a positive impact, how much better do you think Ball will really make LA? As I've pointed out throughout the year, and now the real writers at LB themselves have looked at, he struggles to create much of anything in the half court at this point, and I don't see him being much of a defensive presence either. The elite athletes that are NBA PGs will punish a rookie Lonzo Ball just like Fox did in the tournament, and given all the #### his dad's talked I'd bet they're going to be gunning for him. He'll also be stuck in a backcourt logjam with Russell and Clarkson. Obviously Ball is the guy they're going to go with, but the three guards will be fighting for minutes and who knows if they're compatible?

Maybe he'll be a superstar down the road, but don't expect any big team improvement out of the Lakers because of Lonzo Ball next season.

Another argument people bring up is the development of their young talent. This is a valid argument as I expect Ingram to definitely develop a bit, and I think Russell and Randle still have a bit more room for growth. That being said, I don't think anyone expects them to become stars next year. Looking at their RPMs, Ingram was the second worst SF in the NBA, Russell was 42nd among PGs, and Randle was 71st among PFs. Even if they improve, they'll probably still rate as poor/horrible players.

Will the combination of FAs, Lonzo Ball, and natural progression of players currently on the roster make up for the losses of Lou Williams and Nick Young? Probably not honestly. As explained earlier, the value these guys brought to the table was unbelievable, the team was 42 wins better with them both on the court compared to when they were both off of it. I don't see any real way to make up for that kind of production.

Let's be extremely generous and say that they do somehow make up for just straight up losing these two guys, they're just back to the status quo then. The analytical profile of the worst team in the NBA. Even if they were to improve, how much better would they get?

I'd put money on LA being one of the 5 worst teams in the NBA next year, if not in the bottom 3 again.

The only threat is the possibility of a Paul George trade.

That being said, if LA were to make such a trade it would require them to get rid of the #2 pick, Ingram, and extra young pieces as well. I personally don't see the team scrapping their whole young core for a player they can sign in FA.

Even if George were added, the team would be in shambles around him. With Myles Turner, Jeff Teague, and Thaddeus Young the Pacers were barely a 42 win team. After this trade, LA would be left surrounding him with the likes of Clarkson and maybe Randle. They would still be far from a playoff team in the West and probably in the 5-10 range of the lottery. If Indiana holds out until the deadline to move George, which is very possible and more likely than an offseason move I'd assume, LA will already be in the pits by the time they get him.

 
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Zigg said:
I assume you left out John Stockton because he is clearly on a different level, right?  Better than both ITs combined.  
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Switch out any 4 or 5 on the Celts for Mailman and i'll beat LeBron and maybe even the East Bay Cartel (and i'm pickin Cavs to sweep). One or both of the Jazz duo might not get the credit they deserve because they were so seamless, but i'll put the Leprechaun's '16-7 over any of Shortshorts's.

 
modogg said:
I don't mean to poke at Lakers fans,
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I think most of us are aware that this isn't getting turned around overnight. And just as I believe the C's are best served with a longer term window, the Lakers are in the same boat (without the same assets of course). The question of whether they come out of this tailspin sooner rather than later will be completely predicated on the development (or lack thereof) of the youngsters they're getting on the roster. We're not expecting any deep playoff runs any time soon, but if the guys they're picking up with these draft picks don't progress it's going to be a long, long dry spell to be sure. I'm not thrilled with what I've seen so far from Russell (though he really did improve over the course of last season) and Ingram, so I'm still a bit pessimistic. The Deng and Mozgov contracts are horrible, and we knew that when they happened. The only silver lining there is that the clowns who made those decisions are gone.

And whatever else happens, it's still much much better that they hung on to their 1st round picks the next 2 years than the alternative. As bleak as its been, there's actual reason for hope based on what happened yesterday. That's good enough for now.

 
Celtics owner Wyc responds to the chatter about trades. Capps going to be disappointed that he spoke about age...

"You don’t really want to necessarily trade a number one pick in a really good draft for somebody that’s halfway thru their career, already making max money,” the team’s governor and CEO stated. “That’s just a difficult trade to make. First of all, you have to match the money in the trade, so you’ve got to add significant additional players on our side to go just to sort of match the money, so it’s three or four guys going and one guy coming back. That guy better be pretty good because if you’re drafting No. 1 and you make the pick well – you do really draft a transcendent player – you’ve got that player for five or six years as they build up before the max money even kicks in."

 
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