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2017-18 NBA (Playoffs): A gasping, wheezing thread begs message board poster arguing how Jordan never lost a Finals to just let it die in peace (2 Viewers)

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msudaisy26 said:
I am happy for you, but you have no way of knowing that. Even if you did know that, what is the difference between feeling the pain of watching 60+ lose teams and being even more happy then the bandwagon fan now vs. not feeling the pain and enjoying other hobbies and being slightly less happy when the Dubs are great? I would take option B
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Imagine being married to a really hot dude that has always been hot, compared to being married to a dude that weighed 800 lbs and ate entire bags of cheetos. Not just the cheetos in the bag, but the entire bag. And he was so massive that they had to remove a wall of your house and use a crane to get him out. But then he started working out and eating right and then boom, after a few years he was a hot dude.

Assume both dudes end up equally hot, but with scenario B its even more amazing because you could never in your wildest dreams imagine that this fat sack of garbage was ever going to get off the couch, much less become a very handsome dude.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
Imagine being married to a really hot dude that has always been hot, compared to being married to a dude that weighed 800 lbs and ate entire bags of cheetos. Not just the cheetos in the bag, but the entire bag. And he was so massive that they had to remove a wall of your house and use a crane to get him out. But then he started working out and eating right and then boom, after a few years he was a hot dude.

Assume both dudes end up equally hot, but with scenario B its even more amazing because you could never in your wildest dreams imagine that this fat sack of garbage was ever going to get off the couch, much less become a very handsome dude.
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I guess, but hard to make a comparison. 

 
SoCalBroncoFan said:
No, he has one for the second scenario spelled out. If you sign a two year deal and the second year is a player option, and you would have Bitd rights if you opt out after the first year, you have a no trade clause. Not sure exactly why, but the second scenario spells out how. That is why most no trades fall under that umbrella. 
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It is confusing, I still think both guys are eligible for a no trade if they want it and can get it. 

I also think if the Clippers signed Blake to the max and then traded him shortly after, without Blake asking for a trade, it would hurt their chances for future free agents. No one would want to commit to an organization just to be shipped out shortly after. Especially if they did it to a guy that has played his whole career there. 

 
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msudaisy26 said:
It is confusing, I still think both guys are eligible for a no trade if they want it and can get it. 

I also think if the Clippers signed Blake to the max and then traded him shortly after, without Blake asking for a trade, it would hurt their chances for future free agents. No one would want to go to a place be there year and be shipped out. Especially if they did it to a guy that has played his whole career there. 
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Both are eligible for a no trade clause, but it isn't just given, it has to be negotiated. And we all know that on a negotiation you have to give something to get something. Would Blake take less money to get a no trade clause? 

And it's not like he can get one from another team, either.

 
The real question for the Clippers is do you want to resign these guys and give it another couple years of early exits from the playoffs, maybe get lucky and make the conference finals, kind of like the Pistons did at the end of their run or blow it up and try to start over?

 
SoCalBroncoFan said:
Both are eligible for a no trade clause, but it isn't just given, it has to be negotiated. And we all know that on a negotiation you have to give something to get something. Would Blake take less money to get a no trade clause? 

And it's not like he can get one from another team, either.
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I doubt he will take less money or years. 

 
msudaisy26 said:
The real question for the Clippers is do you want to resign these guys and give it another couple years of early exits from the playoffs, maybe get lucky and make the conference finals, kind of like the Pistons did at the end of their run or blow it up and try to start over?
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Think I said this up top, but I say re-sign Paul, let Griffin go. Windhorst made the solid point on the most recent Lowe Post that the extra money that Paul can get by signing with LAC is much more significant to him than it'd be to an eventual billionaire like LeBron.

I also think that even though he's fairly small, Paul's going to age pretty well. Even if he doesn't, I think that's a bullet you have to bite. You can re-build and keep your franchise dude imo, something that the Bulls fail to grasp.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
Think I said this up top, but I say re-sign Paul, let Griffin go. Windhorst made the solid point on the most recent Lowe Post that the extra money that Paul can get by signing with LAC is much more significant to him than it'd be to an eventual billionaire like LeBron.

I also think that even though he's fairly small, Paul's going to age pretty well. Even if he doesn't, I think that's a bullet you have to bite. You can re-build and keep your franchise dude imo, something that the Bulls fail to grasp.
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I think he will age well too, if he has some talent around him to help him age well. Paul is a very smart ball player and very competitive.  He knows when to differ and when he has to do it himself. If he doesn't have the talent around him I think he will try to do too much himself. 

 
msudaisy26 said:
I think he will age well too, if he has some talent around him to help him age well. Paul is a very smart ball player and very competitive.  He knows when to differ and when he has to do it himself. If he doesn't have the talent around him I think he will try to do too much himself. 
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This is why they need to re-sign Blake. If you re-sign him, you have a player of his talent and caliber. You just have to hope for good health. If you don't re-sign him, and you re-sign Paul, then you don't have enough cap room to sign another big player without gutting the rest of the team. It's the dirty little catch 22 of the NBA. If you don't re-sign your own guys to max contracts then it's nearly impossible to sign someone else's, because they don't Kerberos gen get away. Ask the Lakers, Celrics and Knicks, the 3 biggest franchises in the NBA, how enticing big name free agents to a team with little chance to win the title has worked out. 

 
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thecatch said:
They are hoping Fox turns into a star. Skal has some low percentage star potential, but they need him and Hield to develop into at least good starters. Cauley Stein and Bogdan have some low-mid level starter potential. Giles is another guy who might turn into an above average starter if the stars align. The plan is to get Joerger to get them to overachieve and then add a star at the top of the 2018 lottery or down the line during FA. 

Or they all bust and they keep taking stabs in the lottery for the next several years (sans 2019). The front office does have a whiff of competence though, which is the first time I could say that probably since the Maloofs went broke during the recession. 
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Cauley Stein reminds me of a more authentic Joakim Noah. if he's Noah then that's good enough. Noah with Athleticism is kind of scary though. 

 
msudaisy26 said:
The real question for the Clippers is do you want to resign these guys and give it another couple years of early exits from the playoffs, maybe get lucky and make the conference finals, kind of like the Pistons did at the end of their run or blow it up and try to start over?
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Yep. They haven't gotten too sloppy by trading their 1st round draft picks (IIRC). If they resign CP3 and Griffin it's playoffs with a chance at the WCF every year, but they can easily rebuild if they choose.

If I were the Clips I would let Paul walk or facilitate a sign and trade and resign Griffin with the aim of trading after December or next off-season. Between the Griffin, DeAndre, and CP3 they should be able to get solid assets is they choose to rebuild. 

 
SoCalBroncoFan said:
This is why they need to re-sign Blake. If you re-sign him, you have a player of his talent and caliber. You just have to hope for good health. If you don't re-sign him, and you re-sign Paul, then you don't have enough cap room to sign another big player without gutting the rest of the team. It's the dirty little catch 22 of the NBA. If you don't re-sign your own guys to max contracts then it's nearly impossible to sign someone else's, because they don't Kerberos gen get away. Ask the Lakers, Celrics and Knicks, the 3 biggest franchises in the NBA, how enticing big name free agents to a team with little chance to win the title has worked out. 
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if they could get off crawford, which doesn't seem that hard for 1 year at $14 million, how much could they free up?

maybe then they could have enough for a top FA and Paul and let go of Blake?

 
Just Win Baby said:
So the easiest path to the next super team to challenge GS seems to be the Clippers resigning Paul, Redick, and Griffin, and Lebron signing with LAC for whatever minimum contract the rules allow next offseason. Paul, Redick, Lebron, Griffin, and Jordan would be the instant favorite if they could stay healthy.

Or Paul could go to the Spurs and Lebron could follow next offseason. Paul, Lebron, Leonard, and Pop would be the instant favorite if they could stay healthy.

But there doesn't seem to be much that any team can do to really challenge GS in 2017-18.
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Would LeBron buy into Pop though? Dude seems to go by the beat of his own drum and not much of I'm listening to some coach type? Maybe with Pop that changes but I see LeBron doing him and his own thing. 

 
Charlie Harper said:
Yep. They haven't gotten too sloppy by trading their 1st round draft picks (IIRC). If they resign CP3 and Griffin it's playoffs with a chance at the WCF every year, but they can easily rebuild if they choose.

If I were the Clips I would let Paul walk or facilitate a sign and trade and resign Griffin with the aim of trading after December or next off-season. Between the Griffin, DeAndre, and CP3 they should be able to get solid assets is they choose to rebuild. 
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They are in a no win spot, if they keep the team together they could easily end up like the Pistons or several other teams that tried to hang on too long. The Piston rebuild is going on the better part of a decade. If they rebuild/tank they risk losing the fan base they have gained since these players and ownership took over, but the rebuild would be quicker. They would have the ability to take on salary and could get deals like Brooklyn just got with Russell, trade Jordan and then have money to spend when they started coming back.

I would blow it up and it isn't even because I dislike the Clippers. They aren't winning anything with this core. Trade Jordan, and start taking bad contracts from teams starting next year for future 1sts, and take gambles like Brooklyn just did, but what do I know I am just a fan.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
if they could get off crawford, which doesn't seem that hard for 1 year at $14 million, how much could they free up?

maybe then they could have enough for a top FA and Paul and let go of Blake?
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But who? George has already said he will only play for the Lakers. Do you take him at his word? 

I heard someone say once that if you are going to make any kind of move, you should already have some viable backup plans in place. Without knowing who was available, and whether or not you had a legitimate shot at signing them, it would be foolish to let Blakewalk and just hope for someone to take his place. We saw how well that worked out for the Thunder. What are the odds that the Thunder will be able to sign a big name free agent? It's situations like that when you end up signing Greg Monroe to a big contract and are regretting it a year later.

 
So, looking at early sports handicapping I think the Timberwolves are going to be decent fade material to begin with.

Every book knows the public is going to want to bet the point spread and they're going to make that line just one or two points too many while still attracting every Joe Schmoe to bet on it.

Then again, Butler has played for Thibs so maybe he'll gel quicker. Know that guy loved playing in Chicago.

 
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...and I've thought about the Bulls trade a little bit more and I believe that part of the trade was a thank you to Butler and Thibs.

You don't want to trade Butler to someone in the East and Thibs was a good man for us in Chicago who has a rapport with Butler.

I think a little bit more than "value" was in play here. If the Bulls had to trade Butler, he went to exactly the right place.

 
Eminence said:
So, looking at early sports handicapping I think the Timberwolves are going to be decent fade material to begin with.

Every book knows the public is going to want to bet the point spread and they're going to make that line just one or two points too many while still attracting every Joe Schmoe to bet on it.

Then again, Butler has played for Thibs so maybe he'll gel quicker. Know that guy loved playing in Chicago.
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How dare you

 
Eminence said:
...and I've thought about the Bulls trade a little bit more and I believe that part of the trade was a thank you to Butler and Thibs.

You don't want to trade Butler to someone in the East and Thibs was a good man for us in Chicago who has a rapport with Butler.

I think a little bit more than "value" was in play here. If the Bulls had to trade Butler, he went to exactly the right place.
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I could buy the value part if they had similar offers from an East team and a West team, but there is no way they did Thibs and Butler a solid that makes their rebuild more difficult. It isn't like they won a title or Butler is an aging vet looking for one more ring run. The panicked and made a bad deal, nothing more or less. 

 
Frostillicus said:
How dare you
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There's gonna be a bunch of Frosty's out there stretching out the point spread, lol.

I never said they'll be losing games, just not covering spreads. I think you guys are a solid 6-8 seed.

Warriors, Spurs, Rockets will make it and be seeded above Minnesota. So your ceiling is 4th.

Jazz lose Heyward and they're not in the Playoffs. Grizzlies are due for a down year. Clippers will be interesting to see what happens, even if they lose pieces they can still land 6-8 instead of 4th. Thunder should only get better with all that triple-double crap behind them.

The real wildcard are the Blazers who I can see finish as high as the 4th if enough of last years contenders team's struggle next year.

Pelicans are gonna play spoiler but miss playoffs. Cousins is just one of those guys I don't see ever being a consistent winner.

 
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msudaisy26 said:
I could buy the value part if they had similar offers from an East team and a West team, but there is no way they did Thibs and Butler a solid that makes their rebuild more difficult. It isn't like they won a title or Butler is an aging vet looking for one more ring run. The panicked and made a bad deal, nothing more or less. 
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We made a bad deal to the right people. You can't find one person in Chicago that has a bad thing to say about Thibs.

 
Eminence said:
There's gonna be a bunch of Frosty's out the stretching out the point spread, lol.

I never said they'll be losing games, just not covering spreads. I think you guys are a solid 6-8 seed.

Warriors, Spurs, Rockets will make it.

Jazz lose Heyward and they're not in the Playoffs. Grizzlies are due for a down year. Clippers will be interesting to see what happens, even if they lose pieces they can still land 6-8 instead of 4th. Thunder should only get better with all that triple-double crap behind them.

The real wildcard are the Blazers who I can see finish as high as the 4th if enough of last years contenders team's struggle next year.

Pelicans are gonna play spoiler but miss playoffs. Cousins is just one of those guys I don't see ever being a consistent winner.
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Do you have any idea how stoked I am for a six seed?

 
Eminence said:
We made a bad deal to the right people. You can't find one person in Chicago that has a bad thing to say about Thibs.
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The old NBA thread is gone, but I am pretty sure the Chicago fans on this board complained about him quite a bit when he was the Bulls coach. I remember them complaining about the minutes and offensive play calling. 

 
msudaisy26 said:
The old NBA thread is gone, but I am pretty sure the Chicago fans on this board complained about him quite a bit when he was the Bulls coach. I remember them complaining about the minutes and offensive play calling. 
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Compared to what we've had since he left, he was a saint.

 
bananafish said:
I've heard some silly things over the last few days but the Bulls wanting to do Thibs a "solid" is the cherry on top of the stupid sundae. 
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Your only other option is to believe that nobody else had interest in a 3rd team All-Pro but the Twolves.

Because that was highway robbery.

 
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Some interesting dialogue about the state of the Clippers in here.  Definitely some solid and well thought out opinions from many different points of views.   While my two favorite teams are the Pacers and the Lakers ( Uggh)--I do root for all of the local Cali teams to do well.  My opinion for the Clippers in regards to what they should do is that it really makes no difference.  What Golden State did this last season with the addition of Durant drastically changed the outlook for teams that were considered "on the brink" or "one solid piece" away from being a contender.  Even if the Clips maintained Paul, Jordan, Blake--and let's say somehow managed to land a superstar like Paul George--Golden State would still be the favorites.   I think the problem with the Clippers core is that two of their star players (Blake and Deandre) aren't true long range threats.  This makes the Clippers far easier to defend against than teams like the Warriors, Cavs, Spurs or even the Rockets.  Those teams that were once on the brink--are now very far from the edge--and may have to re-consider how they move forward.  

Also--if you look at what happened towards the latter part of the regular season this past year--teams like Denver and Portland, really turned things on.  I think Minnesota really got better with the addition of Butler as well.   I'm not sure that bringing the same Clippers team back this season puts them definitely ahead of the teams that I just mentioned.   With that being said--I do like Ballmer as an owner. I do like that he went out and got Jerry West as I feel like organizations are built and create culture from the top down.   I do think that they could build around CP3 and Deandre if they wanted to--but I also wouldn't call it tragic if they took a wrecking ball to the current roster and built the thing from the ground up.   

 
bananafish said:
The Bulls' front office is a bunch of vindictive jerks who bad mouthed Thibs before running him out of town. Butler's trainer said he knew drug dealers with better morality. 

Don't mistake incompetence for beneficence.
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You might be right but the whole thing seems as fishy as when the Bulls happened to win the lottery to draft homegrown talent Derrick Rose.

 
I know the Clippers just hired Jerry West, but I feel like you can already see his fingerprints on the draft. Golden State has been praised as being smart and forward-thinking by buying a second round pick to acquire talent at a cheap price. Well, not having a first round pick this year, the Clippers bought two second round picks. With the first one, they drafted Sindarius Thornwell, a 6'5" guard who plays outstanding defense and averaged 21 points a game last at. Everything I have read says he has real upside. With the second pick they drafted Jawin Evans, a 6'1" guard who graded out as having a high basketball IQ and thrives at running the pick and roll. Not saying they are going to be stars, but might be useful rotation and these seem like smart, calculated picks. Definitely sounds like Jerry West to me.

 
+1600 for ROY On a team that desperately needs somebody to score, and should have a decent record? Lonzo looms large in the ROY race, but otherwise, I'm not sure there's a better investment if you feel like making a few easy racks.

 
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What I can't seem to wrap my head around on the Butler trade was Chicago tossing in #16 overall as well. That's what really comes across as poor negotiating and seeing who blinks first. Does anyone think Minny actually passes on that deal if Chicago absolutely refuses to part with it until the very last second (which they didn't even take a chance at)? Of course not.

 
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