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2017-18 NBA (Playoffs): A gasping, wheezing thread begs message board poster arguing how Jordan never lost a Finals to just let it die in peace (1 Viewer)

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NutterButter said:
you're certainly trading defense for offense with those moves and I can't speak for what schemes they'd use to slow down the cavs, but offensively, they'll be really tough to defend.    spread the floor with hortford, hayward, tatum, george and thomas driving.   that would be fun to watch.   
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I have felt the x-factor with the C's going forward is IT and the addition of more offensive firepower...if he can handle playing with other studs that opens up a lot of things (if he can't then it becomes a big issue)...right now he is by far their top offensive threat...it is not even close...add in a Hayward and George (and a developing Brown and Tatum) and how are teams going to defend him...there will be no more double teams and if you put a bigger player on him then others will kill you...he could go for 50 points or 20 assists any given night in that scenario...

 
Sammy3469 said:
You'd have to see what other parts they could come up with, but I don't see how they'd deal with the LeBron/Irving combo on defense and they'd have even less places to hide IT in general since that roster (as proposed) doesn't have anyone that can really stop PG penetration or a pick and roll.  

That's one of the things that never made much sense with the Tatum pick/trade.  If they pull this off, they are most likely short a combo-ish guard and no real salary to match up for a third move though I guess they can move Brown or Tatum for that need and they'd also have the mid level exception.
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Brown is a 2/3, so he pretty much fits that role.  I think Tatum is supposed to be more of a 3/4.  If you add George/Hayward (which I think is unlikely) you're looking at Horford/George/Hayward/Brown/IT as the starters and Tatum + whatever is left on the bench.  Smart would be a nice keep because he can play 1-3 against most teams.

 
Boston said:
I have felt the x-factor with the C's going forward is IT and the addition of more offensive firepower...if he can handle playing with other studs that opens up a lot of things (if he can't then it becomes a big issue)...right now he is by far their top offensive threat...it is not even close...add in a Hayward and George (and a developing Brown and Tatum) and how are teams going to defend him...there will be no more double teams and if you put a bigger player on him then others will kill you...he could go for 50 points or 20 assists any given night in that scenario...
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that's a lot of offensive firepower they'd be adding.  you're talking 3 6'8 guys that are athletic, can shoot and can put the ball on the deck.    

 
Sammy3469 said:
FWIW, Marks' has the roster under Hayward-PG scenario as:

which is Smart for Zizic and Yabusele.  There's also no real way to give PG an extension since they'd be at the cap and he'd presumably want to renegotiate his salary up to 120% of what he's currently making.  So if they want to extend him, it basically will cost them one of Smart, Tatum, or Brown.  
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No one really has touched on my inquiries about how they could go about extending George (and when). Once the C's acquired him, could they go beyond the cap by way of the Bird Exception? I assume he would qualify (having at least a 3 year contract with Bird rights traded to BOS).

Basketball capology is not my thing, but if they were able to exceed the cap to keep George and IT around, does that matter in terms of how they calculate the luxury tax? Or is over the cap a universal penalty no matter what the situation?

If they were to get to the point where they had Horford, IT, George, and Hayward all on the same roster, could they offer max or super max deals to all of them and jump leaps and bounds over the cap? They would be $20 million over the cap just on those 4 guys. I never fully grasped the soft salary cap rules.

 
Anarchy99 said:
No one really has touched on my inquiries about how they could go about extending George (and when). Once the C's acquired him, could they go beyond the cap by way of the Bird Exception? I assume he would qualify (having at least a 3 year contract with Bird rights traded to BOS).

Basketball capology is not my thing, but if they were able to exceed the cap to keep George and IT around, does that matter in terms of how they calculate the luxury tax? Or is over the cap a universal penalty no matter what the situation?

If they were to get to the point where they had Horford, IT, George, and Hayward all on the same roster, could they offer max or super max deals to all of them and jump leaps and bounds over the cap? They would be $20 million over the cap just on those 4 guys. I never fully grasped the soft salary cap rules.
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Well they can extend him off his current base...only problem is no player who is a max player, but isn't getting paid like one will do that.  So if they want to extend him and he wants to boost his starting salary the maximum allowed (120% of his current 2017-18 salary) they need to be the extra 20% under the salary cap.  Net-net, they need to shed about 18.5 million to trade for and then give him an extension (if he even wants an extension) after they sign Hayward.  

If he plays out his contract (or IT for that matter), they can go over the cap to re-sign them, but they both would be FAs.

 
Sammy3469 said:
Well they can extend him off his current base...only problem is no player who is a max player, but isn't getting paid like one will do that.  So if they want to extend him and he wants to boost his starting salary the maximum allowed (120% of his current 2017-18 salary) they need to be the extra 20% under the salary cap.  Net-net, they need to shed about 18.5 million to trade for and then give him an extension (if he even wants an extension) after they sign Hayward.  

If he plays out his contract (or IT for that matter), they can go over the cap to re-sign them, but they both would be FAs.
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cbafaq says:

A player cannot be traded in an extend-and-trade after the season (for example, on draft day) in the last season of his contract, or in any season that might be the last season due to an option or ETO.
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So would that not make this impossible?  I know that Duncan discussed it last week, but I forget the conclusion.  I thought they said it was not possible, though they also made your point about George not accepting it because it wouldn't be enough of a raise.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q94

 
So local Boston radio host is stating the offer to Indy fro Boston for George is  LAL/SAC pic, either MEM or LAC 1sr round pick, Crowder and $ filler. It is all contingent on Celtics signing Hayward. 

I'm still skeptical 

 
Just Win Baby said:
Can you cite some of those advanced stats? I looked at DWS and DBPM, and Bradley was better than the rest in those. What are the metrics that show him to be a "pretty terrible" defender?

He was 1st team All Defense just last year; are you suggesting he didn't deserve that? Or his 2012-13 2nd team All Defense selection?

It is anecdotal, but a lot of non-Celtics players reacted with surprise that he didn't make it... a lot of guys that he matches up with.
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First, I think he is better than his advanced stats, I'm not saying he is a bad defender.

ESPN RPM had him at -1.72. They have him as a PG, but if you move that -1.72 to SGs, he slides in at 80th out of 101 SGs.

His Drtg of 108 (I don't think this stat is fair to compare between players of different teams, it's mostly a team stat) didn't stand out on the Celtics either way, so I don't think there is much to get from that.

His DBPM was -0.4. That's really not good.

His DWS (WS are a nice stat, I don't think the breakout between OWS and DWS is accurate) of 2.0 puts him between 106th and 112th in the NBA.

I heard all of the players coming out in support of him, and it makes sense. If you are an opposing guard and he is on you, he is very difficult to score against because he is an elite 1-on-1 defender. But as I mentioned, he is an overrated team defender.

 
Baloney Sandwich said:
So local Boston radio host is stating the offer to Indy fro Boston for George is  LAL/SAC pic, either MEM or LAC 1sr round pick, Crowder and $ filler. It is all contingent on Celtics signing Hayward. 

I'm still skeptical 
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Sounds like more value than the Bulls got for a better player on a longer contract. The Celtics would have to include some more salary filler to make it work.

 
Baloney Sandwich said:
So local Boston radio host is stating the offer to Indy fro Boston for George is  LAL/SAC pic, either MEM or LAC 1sr round pick, Crowder and $ filler. It is all contingent on Celtics signing Hayward. 

I'm still skeptical 
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It has to be more than that as the salaries wouldn't come close to matching. I was listening to the same discussion and I believe Bradley and Crowder were the players and the picks involved were the LAL//SAC/PHI pick and the MEM pick the following year. 

 
Kev4029 said:
First, I think he is better than his advanced stats, I'm not saying he is a bad defender.

ESPN RPM had him at -1.72. They have him as a PG, but if you move that -1.72 to SGs, he slides in at 80th out of 101 SGs.

His Drtg of 108 (I don't think this stat is fair to compare between players of different teams, it's mostly a team stat) didn't stand out on the Celtics either way, so I don't think there is much to get from that.

His DBPM was -0.4. That's really not good.

His DWS (WS are a nice stat, I don't think the breakout between OWS and DWS is accurate) of 2.0 puts him between 106th and 112th in the NBA.

I heard all of the players coming out in support of him, and it makes sense. If you are an opposing guard and he is on you, he is very difficult to score against because he is an elite 1-on-1 defender. But as I mentioned, he is an overrated team defender.
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Well, I must admit that I must have confused his DBPM and DWS with one of the others, because I thought they were better than that. I am still surprised, but good info.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
cbafaq says:

So would that not make this impossible?  I know that Duncan discussed it last week, but I forget the conclusion.  I thought they said it was not possible, though they also made your point about George not accepting it because it wouldn't be enough of a raise.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q94
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Only way George gets extended after the trade is if he goes to a team $12M or more under the cap.  In that scenario, he can get extended for the same as what his Max as a FA would be using the available cap money.  Otherwise, he'd not getting extended.  The Lakers can do this, which is another reason PG would like to go to the Lakers.

ETA:  Looked up more information on this.  What allows this is the ability to re-negotiate the 2017-2018 contract of George by being under the cap.

 
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modogg said:
lol Brogden winning the ROY. If that isn't complete bull####, i am not sure what is. Should have just given it to Ingram or J. Brown instead then if they want to make a mockery of the whole thing.

Dude was rookie of the month for 0 months...
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Not really a huge deal. MCW won the award and look where he's at. Only reason MCW won was because he padded his stats on a team that consisted of mostly D Leaguers and the rookie class was awful plus Giannis wasn't that good yet. Embiid didn't play enough games to garner the serious votes and both he and Saric kind of stole votes from each other. You could also argue Saric's last few months was contributed to more playing time do to injury, wasn't started and he was the only real scoring option outside of injuries. I don't put much into Monthly awards either. 

 
Let's assume the Cavs stay pretty much the same and the Cetlics get PG13, and Hayward. Offensively they can keep pace with the Cavs, but they still have a monster rebounding problem against LeBron, Thompson and Love, and a huge problem with rim protection against Irving and LeBron. 

I still think the Cetlics lose in 6 with the additions of George and Hayward and then have to worry about George walking. 

I think they need to go get George or Hayward, then go get Porzingis(if he is truly even available) or Ibaka or Millsap. 

 
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Anarchy99 said:
No one really has touched on my inquiries about how they could go about extending George (and when). Once the C's acquired him, could they go beyond the cap by way of the Bird Exception? I assume he would qualify (having at least a 3 year contract with Bird rights traded to BOS).

Basketball capology is not my thing, but if they were able to exceed the cap to keep George and IT around, does that matter in terms of how they calculate the luxury tax? Or is over the cap a universal penalty no matter what the situation?

If they were to get to the point where they had Horford, IT, George, and Hayward all on the same roster, could they offer max or super max deals to all of them and jump leaps and bounds over the cap? They would be $20 million over the cap just on those 4 guys. I never fully grasped the soft salary cap rules.
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Here's my understanding of the NBA salary cap.

There's two cap numbers to remember...

1) Salary Cap = $99 million

2) Luxury Tax = $119 million (I think this is the latest, can change)

So when you look at a team's salary situation you look at theory their total salary heading into the season with contracts and cap holds for rookies and free agents. Where they are impacts how much the roster costs the owner(s), how they can sign FAs, and what exceptions they have.

ROSTER COST: Teams have to spend 90% of the salary cap. Anything below that the difference is spilt amongst the players on the roster. Any roster UP TO the luxury tax is the actual cost. So NBA rosters can cost between $90-$118,999,999. Any roster ABOVE the luxury tax pays a graduated tax for every dollar over that ranges from 1.5:1 to 3.75+:1. If a team is over the luxury tax in 3/4 previous seasons then they pay the repeater tax rate that stars at 2.5:1-4.75+:1.

FREE AGENTS: A team under the cap has that much space to sign free agents. A team over the cap can go over the cap if they: resign their own free agents with Bird Rights (2 years service), use a mid level exception, or sign a minimum deal.

EXCEPTIONS: Used to sign free agents to non-minimum deals. Teams get 1 per off-season. Previous CBA levels (these were upped in the new CBA)....

- Over the cap, but under luxury tax: 5 millionish

- Over the cap, over the luxury tax: 3 millionish

- Under the cap, but signing will go over: 2 millionish

So that's my rough understanding. So that's why Boston needs to sign Hayward and any free agents first and then trade for George (who would exercise his player option for next year and then the Celtics can resign to a max with Bird Rights in 2 years). It's also why it was huge Durant will take a little less via extension (vs GSW clearing cap space for a max), so they can have the middle level exception AND Bird Rights to Igoudala, Livingston, and the rest. It's also why Twolves swapped Levine for Butler and will chase a big FA this year because they won't have anymore room with Wiggins and KAT extensions looming. Simple right?

 
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bananafish said:
In other news, part one of the Dunc'd On Mock Offseason pod is up: http://nateduncannba.com/podcast-episodes/duncd-mock-offseason-part-1/

This, along with part two tomorrow, are some of the best podcasts of the year imo. I won't spoil anything except to say it's worth listening to.

eta: the beginning of part 2 is up as well if you are a Patreon subsrciber (which you should be).
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Am I the only one not entertained by any of this? Feels like I'm listening to a bunch of nerds RP and rarely, if ever, get anything right.

 
Too bad nobody was able to shake Porzingis free before they fired this moron. 

It's two totally different jobs but definitely changed my opinion of him as a coach even. He just wasn't that great, he just had some of the greatest play for him. 

 
Capella said:
Too bad nobody was able to shake Porzingis free before they fired this moron. 

It's two totally different jobs but definitely changed my opinion of him as a coach even. He just wasn't that great, he just had some of the greatest play for him. 
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To be fair nba head coaches are just motivators who occasionally draw up good time out plays.

 
Capella said:
Too bad nobody was able to shake Porzingis free before they fired this moron. 

It's two totally different jobs but definitely changed my opinion of him as a coach even. He just wasn't that great, he just had some of the greatest play for him. 
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I've always felt Jackson was a bit overrated as a coach, probably the Celtic fan in me. I still thought he was a great coach just not better than Red. His abject failure with the Knicks doesn't nothing to change my opinion of him as a coach though, as you said two totally different jobs.

 
Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @WojVerticalNBA 1m1 minute ago

Knicks owner James Dolan is targeting Toronto's Masai Ujiri to replace Phil Jackson as N.Y.'s President, league sources tell @TheVertical.
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What a disappointment this would be to everyone but Knicks fans.  Although if they make a great hire are they really even the Knicks any more?

 
Good thing they just drafted a kid in the top 10 because of how well he fits into a system that has gone the way of the dodo bird.

 
TobiasFunke said:
What a disappointment this would be to everyone but Knicks fans.  Although if they make a great hire are they really even the Knicks any more?
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DOLAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111111

I'll believe he's hired Ujiri when I see Ujiri in MSG.

 
RUSF18 said:
Good thing they just drafted a kid in the top 10 because of how well he fits into a system that has gone the way of the dodo bird.
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Glad if Phil is out, but why let him control the draft pick? Maybe that was the last straw. Or it could be Carmelo won the loyalty battle. It's confusing, of course.

 
thecatch said:
Woj is brining Bobby Marks with him to ESPN. Marks must have been one heck of a source back in the day. 
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Marks does all the salary/CBA stuff for him which is one of the big weaknesses at ESPN currently.  The fact that you go to Yahoo (or hoopshype or if you pay for Duncan's stuff) for that stuff over ESPN was a huge problem for ESPN

 
Grace Under Pressure said:
Glad if Phil is out, but why let him control the draft pick? Maybe that was the last straw. Or it could be Carmelo won the loyalty battle. It's confusing, of course.
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It was Melo...basically Dolan told him he isn't buying Melo out which Phil didn't like since he would only have been doing this for two more years.  Of course, that also means whoever takes over still has Melo for two years more.  

As for the pick, it was really Frank versus Smith and arguably Frank has the bigger upside (also the bigger downside).  Granted they wouldn't have run this with Phil, but good luck trying to guard a Ntilikina-KP pick and roll with their size-length and ability to roll to the rim.  

 
Sammy3469 said:
It was Melo...basically Dolan told him he isn't buying Melo out which Phil didn't like since he would only have been doing this for two more years.  Of course, that also means whoever takes over still has Melo for two years more.  

As for the pick, it was really Frank versus Smith and arguably Frank has the bigger upside (also the bigger downside).  Granted they wouldn't have run this with Phil, but good luck trying to guard a Ntilikina-KP pick and roll with their size-length and ability to roll to the rim.  
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Agreed, and I don't mind the pick actually.

 
Capella said:
Too bad nobody was able to shake Porzingis free before they fired this moron. 

It's two totally different jobs but definitely changed my opinion of him as a coach even. He just wasn't that great, he just had some of the greatest play for him. 
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He was also a lot older, and falling asleep during draftee workouts.  Kind of like comparing the Jordan that couldn't carry that Wizards team when he came out of retirement to the Jordan that was tearing up the league 10 years earlier.

Plus, the motivation thing.  If I were a Bulls coach from that era, there would always be that voice in my head telling me to submarine the Knicks, kinda like being a sleeper agent for the Bulls, payback for some Oakley and Mason elbows.

 
HellToupee said:
The Ante Zizic era in Boston begins today  :thumbup:
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I'm anticipating this more than seeing how Jayson Tatum looks.  In 20 Euro League games he was 9.0 ppg and 6.7 rpg.

Even in the NBA I think he would have outperformed Amir Johnson.

Is he going to fail this year?  Or is he going to be a productive bench player?  Or is he ultimately going to be a 9-11 rpg? 

 
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