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2017-18 NBA (Playoffs): A gasping, wheezing thread begs message board poster arguing how Jordan never lost a Finals to just let it die in peace (2 Viewers)

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modogg said:
i went nutty (no pun intended :))when the Sixers had the 3rd pick reading up on the possible 3-4 guys they may grab around there. It seemed like many thought Tatum was maybe the one most ready to come in and play, but his ceiling was lower then everybody else in the top 10. They made it sound like what you see is what you will get. which can be good with his offensive skillset, i think the main knock was he won't be growing much past what he is now
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possibly.  i don't know much about ceilings other than the obvious that if someone is very raw, then they clearly have a lot of room to grow as well when i guy has an obvious deficiency like jackson has with his jumper.   i do know that there have been many times this year watching tatum where i thought to myself that was an nba level move.   some of that is just him being more athletic than his opponent which happens a lot at the college level but many time his mechanics were just way ahead of his age.   the big knock i had on him is that he had a tendency to not go all out unlike a guy like jackson who has a huge motor.  when he did put the pedal down, he was very hard to stop.  

 
NutterButter said:
possibly.  i don't know much about ceilings other than the obvious that if someone is very raw, then they clearly have a lot of room to grow as well when i guy has an obvious deficiency like jackson has with his jumper.   i do know that there have been many times this year watching tatum where i thought to myself that was an nba level move.   some of that is just him being more athletic than his opponent which happens a lot at the college level but many time his mechanics were just way ahead of his age.   the big knock i had on him is that he had a tendency to not go all out unlike a guy like jackson who has a huge motor.  when he did put the pedal down, he was very hard to stop.  
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yeah i don't know squat about what he will be either, just what i read. I remember most of the Sixers bloggers, etc. thought he would be the worst for the Sixers to take at 3. Not sure if it was the fit with the Sixers or if it was the player (i think it was little of both)

 
Niles Standish said:
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some silicon valley money promised to Durant under the table.  This might be the biggest pay-cut we have ever seen in any sport.  Brady has done it but not to this extent.  James has too, although again not to this extent.  Not sure why he did it either since it sounds like he could have been signed at much closer to max it just would have increased the billionaire owner's tax bill but not changed the Warriors at all.
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Percentage-wise I'm sure Brady's discount would be more.  Arguably the best an in the league should be making $20 and he has been making 50-60% of that for years.

 
i think the Celtics playing Jaylen Brown all game is good insurance for them if G. Heyward signs somewhere else. "We didn't get Heyward but Jaylen had 29+ points!!"

 
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Niles Standish said:
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some silicon valley money promised to Durant under the table.  This might be the biggest pay-cut we have ever seen in any sport.  Brady has done it but not to this extent.  James has too, although again not to this extent.  Not sure why he did it either since it sounds like he could have been signed at much closer to max it just would have increased the billionaire owner's tax bill but not changed the Warriors at all.
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Brady's discount is by far the biggest. He is making about 14 million last year and this year, if I read his contract right, and if he was paid as the top qb in the league he would be north of 26 million. So a 12 million a year discount or about 54 percent of what he could make. I don't think the discount James gave Miami was really that much, I think the league max was around 17 million and he made 14.5 million his first year.

 
NutterButter said:
i watched a lot of duke bball this year.  tatum had an nba level offensive repertoire as a college freshman.   i don't remember the last time I saw a college freshman with some a refined offensive game.   
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I remember a few, Kyrie in a limited sample size, Carmelo, Tim Duncan, Lillard, Durant

 
msudaisy26 said:
I remember a few, Kyrie in a limited sample size, Carmelo, Tim Duncan, Lillard, Durant
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Ah Kyrie.  What could've been if he didn't get hurt.  He could just blow past people.   Carmelo is a very good comparison and who I could envision Tatum becoming if he continues to progress.  

 
wikkid's Bos/Phil summer league scouting report:

2nd year players Trumphands Brown & WooWooCabaret impressed but Jaylen had a half-dozen "watch me do thi...oops" plays that were all benchable offenses. what a candyass! Fultz has a lightning release - Curry/Harden quality - passes well on the move but not in sets and, as he was criticized for in school, missed both his clutchers at the end. Tatum has poor court sense but finds seams on the dribble and is a ballsy iso guy (made BOTH his clutchers). do NOT like his stroke, however. Itchy Icicic is Valenciunas Lite, less physically imposing but better court sense. decent feet & hustle but no hops at all. the real eyecatcher was Philly's Euro 2nd rounder Jonah Bolden. ALL the measurables and a very nice stroke for a big guy. reminds me of LNanceJr when LNJ is on, but better D already. not much of a game for as many good players as were on the floor for a summer league

 
Collison with 2/20 from Indy with a partial guarantee on the second year. Perfect for a team looking for 30-35 win pergatory like the Pacers.

 
msudaisy26 said:
Brady's discount is by far the biggest. He is making about 14 million last year and this year, if I  and if he was paid as the top qb in the league he would be north of 26 million. So a 12 million a year discount or about 54 percent of what he could make. I don't think the discount James gave Miami was really that much, I think the league max was around 17 million and he made 14.5 million his first year.
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Even Carr with his big new contract is getting 25 million a year max (only 8/year guaranteed).  The highest ever paid to a QB is 24 million.  Brady made 14 million.  He also played 12 games.  On a per game basis he was paid 1.16 million.  Which works out to 17.5 million over 16 games (not much lower than Rodgers 19 million).

So if he should be paid the most in the NFL (at his age he'd have a hard time arguing that IMO) we're talking a $10 million discount.  Not sure if he'd be able to get most QB money in the league on the open market.  But for arguments sake we'll say he could.  So he's taking a $10 million discount (40% or so) but improving his team around him since they have $10 million more to spend.  So probably some of that $10 million comes back in endorsements since he's winning.

Durant is taking a 8 million discount (25% or so).  Which is lower than Brady's yes.  But he's also not getting any benefit on team success/marketing because of it.  Since he didn't have to take that large of a discount for any team building reasons.  It just saved his owner a large tax bill.  That's if the article I read was correct.  I guess that's why the discount seems so dissimilar to Brady's.  Brady gets a better team (or at least more money to theoretically have a better team) which helps his legacy and his endorsements.  Durant a multi-millionaire takes a cut and his owner a billionaire gets a tax break.  It doesn't change the team at all.

 
Niles Standish said:
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some silicon valley money promised to Durant under the table.  This might be the biggest pay-cut we have ever seen in any sport.  Brady has done it but not to this extent.  James has too, although again not to this extent.  Not sure why he did it either since it sounds like he could have been signed at much closer to max it just would have increased the billionaire owner's tax bill but not changed the Warriors at all.
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I mean how many hundreds of millions do you need, really.

 
Capella said:
#### me is he insane?
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I won't be surprised if the next CBA has something in it that counts All-NBA guys signing new contracts as max-guys for salary cap purposes.  They already do it to some extent with rookie deals, so it's not that big a leap to just saying any FA who was All-NBA counts as the max they are entitled to.  

 
FWIW, Parker had better moves as a freshman than Tatum at Duke.  Melo>>>>>>Tatum as a freshman and Duncan was still a work in progress.

 
Sammy3469 said:
I won't be surprised if the next CBA has something in it that counts All-NBA guys signing new contracts as max-guys for salary cap purposes.  They already do it to some extent with rookie deals, so it's not that big a leap to just saying any FA who was All-NBA counts as the max they are entitled to.  
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It would keep everyone on a level playing field.  Not sure if anything fishy is going on with Durant.  It's just not a paycut that makes any sense.  I understand taking a paycut if it helps get a better team around you because that benefits you.  I don't understand taking a paycut to help your owner avoid luxury tax.  Maybe Durant is just a very generous guy.

 
Comparing how far below what a NBA star should get vs what an NFL star should get is impossible.

NFL stars have no max per year once they get past their first contract, outside of the overall team max salary cap.  A cap that has to be split between 53 players.

NBA stars salaries are artificially limited to a % of the total cap.  It's why so many of the mid to high level players are just given the max and almost no holdouts in the NBA.

If anyone wants to talk about true underpayment, it has to absolutely be Lebron, and really any of the top 5 of so NBA stars.  I bet Lebron on an open market, not restricted by individual player % of the cap, would be offered up 90 million if an owner knew he could get him and fill the rest with vet mins, exceptions, and draft picks.

 
Niles Standish said:
Considering the point of the pay cut is for Kevin Durant to give up millions of dollars so his billionaire owner can gain millions of extra dollars.  Your post doesn't make sense.
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It didn't make sense to you because you it's a joke.

PS: His billionaire owner? Real nice.

PPS: I have some questions about gear.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
Jahlil okafor?
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Okafor was a one trick pony in college. I remember a huge knock on him was he lacked versatility and wasn't great defensively. I remember thinking he was the worst possible player being talked up in the top 3. I really liked Cauley Stein and Justice Winslow for the 76ers. Going back to Okafor, I remember reading people thinking he was just another one of those players could dominate College players but once got to the NBA would be overwhelmed and overmatched considering his very lack of skill set and versatility. Taytum has a lot of the versatility tools in the NBA from scoring outside and inside with some solid defense as displayed tonight. 

 
DJackson10 said:
Okafor was a one trick pony in college. I remember a huge knock on him was he lacked versatility and wasn't great defensively. I remember thinking he was the worst possible player being talked up in the top 3. I really liked Cauley Stein and Justice Winslow for the 76ers. Going back to Okafor, I remember reading people thinking he was just another one of those players could dominate College players but once got to the NBA would be overwhelmed and overmatched considering his very lack of skill set and versatility. Taytum has a lot of the versatility tools in the NBA from scoring outside and inside with some solid defense as displayed tonight. 
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I don't think I ever saw Okafor take a jump shot.   

 
DJackson10 said:
Okafor was a one trick pony in college. I remember a huge knock on him was he lacked versatility and wasn't great defensively. I remember thinking he was the worst possible player being talked up in the top 3. I really liked Cauley Stein and Justice Winslow for the 76ers. Going back to Okafor, I remember reading people thinking he was just another one of those players could dominate College players but once got to the NBA would be overwhelmed and overmatched considering his very lack of skill set and versatility. Taytum has a lot of the versatility tools in the NBA from scoring outside and inside with some solid defense as displayed tonight. 
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:lmao:  it's summer league. Wait until these guys pay some NBA level players. Was surprised him and Brown both got 30+ minutes, but i guess Celtics are looking to work these guys hard in summer league or something.  But yeah, i will wait until at least his 1st game in a regular season NBA game before drawing any conclusions

 
flranger said:
Comparing how far below what a NBA star should get vs what an NFL star should get is impossible.

NFL stars have no max per year once they get past their first contract, outside of the overall team max salary cap.  A cap that has to be split between 53 players.

NBA stars salaries are artificially limited to a % of the total cap.  It's why so many of the mid to high level players are just given the max and almost no holdouts in the NBA.

If anyone wants to talk about true underpayment, it has to absolutely be Lebron, and really any of the top 5 of so NBA stars.  I bet Lebron on an open market, not restricted by individual player % of the cap, would be offered up 90 million if an owner knew he could get him and fill the rest with vet mins, exceptions, and draft picks.
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You could argue NFL guys should get more then NBA guys. Football players put their bodies on the line more so then what Basketball guys do. Injury risk is there in basketball but not at the extenstivity as NFL players. Compared to NBA players NFL players get ***** for pay

 
DJackson10 said:
You could argue NFL guys should get more then NBA guys. Football players put their bodies on the line more so then what Basketball guys do. Injury risk is there in basketball but not at the extenstivity as NFL players. Compared to NBA players NFL players get ***** for pay
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4 times as many players and less than twice the available salary.  How's that gonna work?

 
Would be kinda cool to see 5 superstars take the league minimum so they make a SUPER TEAM.    Lebron James, Paul George, Russell Westbrook, James Harden and Blake Griffin take the league minimum.  Hypothetical :lol: all the backups would be getting paid more money.

 
NutterButter said:
I don't think I ever saw Okafor take a jump shot.   
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Me either. All I saw was a guy score 15ft or less and dominate college guys. I never was a huge fan of his in college and laughed when the 76ers took him considering they had Noel already. I just thought maybe Hinkie didn't think highly of the other prospects and couldn't find a trade partner to move back so he picked the one guy he knew would suck the most in the NBA to help them tank again even more. Okafor is a great example of many guys who dominate college guys but are overwhelmed in the NBA. Plus a perfect reason I think College guys should stay in school at least 3 yrs. I think 3 yrs weeds the pretenders from the contenders for the next level and better helps develop these guys. 

 
Sammy3469 said:
I won't be surprised if the next CBA has something in it that counts All-NBA guys signing new contracts as max-guys for salary cap purposes.  They already do it to some extent with rookie deals, so it's not that big a leap to just saying any FA who was All-NBA counts as the max they are entitled to.  
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Who would push for that? It's not going to be the owners, and it would severely affect all but a small handful of the players. At some point or another it would have negatively affected Duncan, Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Durant, and probably some other guys that I can't remember off the top of my head because they wouldn't have had the freedom to pick their teammates. There are other guys that maybe made an All-NBA team right as they hit free agency that is either too old to be considered a max player or some other circumstance and he would make a little more money but be forced from his current team because of the rule and forced to take a max deal from some #### franchise. 

It may help keep these super teams from assembling, but it would be a huge burden to stop the 2010 Heat from forming and 2017 Warriors from retaining their 6th man in the future.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
4 times as many players and less than twice the available salary.  How's that gonna work?
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Owners take a pay cut. CEOs and owners make way too much money plus the idiot we have as a commissioner I could get a 2 yr old Chimp to run the NFL better then him and I think I accidentally insulted the chimp right there. 

 
NutterButter said:
i guess he's the opposite of Tatum and Brown in that he'll get better once he's going against some nba level players.
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:lmao:  let's hope the next month or 2 is filled with analysis like this about summer league. Watch the game and you gets a better idea if something is there or not.

all i care about, or what i will deem as success is simple = no injuries to the guys who will make the roster!!  that is all i want from summer league

 
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modogg said:
:lmao:  let's hope the next month or 2 is filled with analysis like this about summer league. Watch the game and you gets a better idea if something is there or not.

all i care about, or what i will deem as success is simple = no injuries to the guys who will make the roster!!  that is all i want from summer league
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With the Sixers roster of seasoned vets, I can see why none of them would see any need to waste time in Summer League.

 
Niles Standish said:
Even Carr with his big new contract is getting 25 million a year max (only 8/year guaranteed).  The highest ever paid to a QB is 24 million.  Brady made 14 million.  He also played 12 games.  On a per game basis he was paid 1.16 million.  Which works out to 17.5 million over 16 games (not much lower than Rodgers 19 million).

So if he should be paid the most in the NFL (at his age he'd have a hard time arguing that IMO) we're talking a $10 million discount.  Not sure if he'd be able to get most QB money in the league on the open market.  But for arguments sake we'll say he could.  So he's taking a $10 million discount (40% or so) but improving his team around him since they have $10 million more to spend.  So probably some of that $10 million comes back in endorsements since he's winning.

Durant is taking a 8 million discount (25% or so).  Which is lower than Brady's yes.  But he's also not getting any benefit on team success/marketing because of it.  Since he didn't have to take that large of a discount for any team building reasons.  It just saved his owner a large tax bill.  That's if the article I read was correct.  I guess that's why the discount seems so dissimilar to Brady's.  Brady gets a better team (or at least more money to theoretically have a better team) which helps his legacy and his endorsements.  Durant a multi-millionaire takes a cut and his owner a billionaire gets a tax break.  It doesn't change the team at all.
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Where are you getting those numbers? I see Brady's cap hit as 14 million, I didn't think they gave cap relief if a player is suspended and his 2017 number is also 14 million. I see Rodgers at 22 million. The guaranteed isn't the number, Carr will be on the Raiders this year and get 25 million, Stafford is about to sign an extension and it is believed to be more than Carr.

 
msudaisy26 said:
Where are you getting those numbers? I see Brady's cap hit as 14 million, I didn't think they gave cap relief if a player is suspended and his 2017 number is also 14 million. I see Rodgers at 22 million. The guaranteed isn't the number, Carr will be on the Raiders this year and get 25 million, Stafford is about to sign an extension and it is believed to be more than Carr.
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http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2016/cap-hit/quarterback/

The numbers I gave are what players were actually paid last season.  Since NFL contracts are dependent on a lot of factors you really don't know what a player will be paid in the future.  Carr will make somewhere between 8 million and 25 million.  Probably towards the higher end.  But to just assume that all players make the most their contract could possibly pay is incorrect.

The Patriots changed Brady's salary after the suspension to almost all roster bonus.  I'm not sure if that was to keep him from losing money during the suspension (his salary was actually 1 million last season) or if it was just a happy coincidence.

 
modogg said:
:lmao:  it's summer league. Wait until these guys pay some NBA level players. Was surprised him and Brown both got 30+ minutes, but i guess Celtics are looking to work these guys hard in summer league or something.  But yeah, i will wait until at least his 1st game in a regular season NBA game before drawing any conclusions
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Wonder if the Celtics have idea where Hayward is going? Trying to see what guy will start this year?

 
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