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2021-22 NBA Thread: Bill Simmons furiously recording 2.5 hour long pod about how Boston is still better than Golden State (2 Viewers)

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Delete posts with "Simmons" and this thread loses 25% of it's pages.  Ditto with "Wolves" or "Brohans". 😁

Cue Capella thread title that would end this entirely... "Brohans, Simmons to the Wolves?!"
it's funny, but i think that can be applied to almost every national NBA media source out there too (except Wolves and Brohan). i look at news through my phone most of the time, and i swear every single day there is a new article on bleacher report about possible Ben Simmons trades. it is honestly like there is some kid at his house on the ESPN trade machine and runs a few through to write an article about

 
Delete posts with "Simmons" and this thread loses 25% of it's pages.  Ditto with "Wolves" or "Brohans". 😁

Cue Capella thread title that would end this entirely... "Brohans, Simmons to the Wolves?!"
that much awesomeness cant be constrained in one headline take that to the bank brohan

 
Sure he could be that player.... he just would be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy easier to guard on the perimeter.  Put a hand on his hip and shove him around like we used to.

So "couldn't play" is obviously too strong, but he isn't super durable and he would get out physical'd over the course of a season.
They didn't even thiink of guarding anyine until they got to the arc.  He'd be killing those guys out in space.

 
Love that people are pointing out that Curry would have dribbled around people.  No $h!+?  Half the people on this board could dribble around 1960s players.  The worst NBA player today is probably better than 99% of the NBA players in the 1960s.  And of course Curry can shoot better, cause 95% of players in the NBA today shoot better than those dudes in that era.  Watching a 1960s - 1970s game is like watching girls HS BBall.  I'm just saying Curry wouldn't even exist.  He'd be sort of like a Jerry West.  That's what he would have been taught to play like, and what a coach would have forced him to play like.  A few guys back then could bomb it.  And as soon as they missed a 30 foot 2 pointer, the bench would be their home the rest of the night.

 
Largest margin of victory in NBA history!


What that victory really points to is the incredibly depth that Memphis has created since Rich Cho took over their analytics staff.  Once the Grizzlies went to the 2nd and 3rd string in that blowout, it wasn't like a parade of janitors were left to clean up.

De'Anthony Melton was a 2nd round pick for the Rockets and got traded around a little bit before he ended up with the Grizzlies. Very underrated defender.

Jon Konchar, Xavier Tillman and Killian Tillie were all UDFAs.  In the 2020 draft, before his injuries sunk his stock, Tillie was seen by some as a late first round pick. Solid fundamental players with good heads on their shoulders. Not going to turn into All Stars but provide incredible 2nd and 3rd unit depth for their cost.

Brandon Clarke and Desmond Bane were also sleepers that many teams passed on but Cho saw their worth. When you have guys like Rich Cho and Troy Weaver and Brock Aller out there that are left alone to just do their jobs, the results for former "has been" teams can be pretty dramatic.

They had so much depth they basically gave Grayson Allen away for just about free for cap clearance.

Which leads the question on what could have been if Paul Allen ( Blazers) and Michael Jordan (Hornets) didn't meddle with Cho and just let him do his job as GM in the past?

 
What that victory really points to is the incredibly depth that Memphis has created since Rich Cho took over their analytics staff.  Once the Grizzlies went to the 2nd and 3rd string in that blowout, it wasn't like a parade of janitors were left to clean up.

De'Anthony Melton was a 2nd round pick for the Rockets and got traded around a little bit before he ended up with the Grizzlies. Very underrated defender.

Jon Konchar, Xavier Tillman and Killian Tillie were all UDFAs.  In the 2020 draft, before his injuries sunk his stock, Tillie was seen by some as a late first round pick. Solid fundamental players with good heads on their shoulders. Not going to turn into All Stars but provide incredible 2nd and 3rd unit depth for their cost.

Brandon Clarke and Desmond Bane were also sleepers that many teams passed on but Cho saw their worth. When you have guys like Rich Cho and Troy Weaver and Brock Aller out there that are left alone to just do their jobs, the results for former "has been" teams can be pretty dramatic.

They had so much depth they basically gave Grayson Allen away for just about free for cap clearance.

Which leads the question on what could have been if Paul Allen ( Blazers) and Michael Jordan (Hornets) didn't meddle with Cho and just let him do his job as GM in the past?


Doesn't change your overall point but Tillman was a 2nd round pick. 

 
Teams have figured out the Wizards weaknesses and are exploiting them.  A bit concerned.  They can't guard big men that operate in space moving to the rim (Allen) nor that can shoot (Valenciunis).  They have horrible defensive habits that need to get corrected.  On offense, the 3 pt shooting is killing them.  Nobody is consistent out there.  KCP and Kuzma have their days, but if they are off it's horrible  Unseld is trying to play Bertans to get it going, but he's off and the worst defensive player in the NBA.  Got some things to clean up.  They really need Thomas Bryant back so they can get Bertans entirely out of the rotation and send him back to Latvia.

 
They didn't even thiink of guarding anyine until they got to the arc.  He'd be killing those guys out in space.


Because they didn't think of shooting before the arc, because pre analytics those were bad shots, and taking bad shots was a great way to watch the rest of a game from the bench.

What you could do in space back then?  Hand check.  What you can't do in space today?  Hand check, or even touch the guy really.  Which is why he kills people in space.

 
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steph curry wouldnt be good in the 60s because he is too good at basketball would be worth like a billion dollars and we could all retire take that to the bank bromigos 

 
Brunell4MVP said:
Teams have figured out the Wizards weaknesses and are exploiting them.  A bit concerned.  They can't guard big men that operate in space moving to the rim (Allen) nor that can shoot (Valenciunis).  They have horrible defensive habits that need to get corrected.  On offense, the 3 pt shooting is killing them.  Nobody is consistent out there.  KCP and Kuzma have their days, but if they are off it's horrible  Unseld is trying to play Bertans to get it going, but he's off and the worst defensive player in the NBA.  Got some things to clean up.  They really need Thomas Bryant back so they can get Bertans entirely out of the rotation and send him back to Latvia.
Getting Rui back could also help a lot.  He seemed like he was really developing nicely towards the end of last season. 

 
matuski said:
Because they didn't think of shooting before the arc, because pre analytics those were bad shots, and taking bad shots was a great way to watch the rest of a game from the bench.

What you could do in space back then?  Hand check.  What you can't do in space today?  Hand check, or even touch the guy really.  Which is why he kills people in space.


This entire premise you are on is based on the idea that Steph Curry would make exactly zero adjustments in his game to play in a previous era.

In previous times, there was more compression around the rim. The modern game has three core positions now - floor spacing rim protecting pivot, 3 And D wing and lead guard/attack guard.  While there are some specialists, that's the practical core of the modern Space And Pace game. However in previous eras, there were a true five position breakdowns. There was a clear distinction between small forwards and shooting guards. Classic double doubles type power forwards had to battle through more hard contact and the game was designed to constantly contest for rebounds. There was a glaring lack of effective rim protection as well.

Curry does not have Tim Hardaway's classic UTEP two step crossover, however he would also not face a versatile wing like a Mikal Bridges in the previous era. Wardell would have a much easier time to get to the rim against slow lumbering enforcer type power forwards, slow burn small forwards and do better at the rim with a scarcity of effective pivots in the league. With more compression towards the rim, Curry wouldn't need to gun it from logo range. Logo range is a product of expanding the gravity around what is considered current league nominal floor spacing. Curry would be shooting closer to the three point line because he's not being driven further off of that line by widespread defensive strategy.

Curry is a high BBIQ player who is a good decision maker, a good ball handler, moves extremely well off the ball and is a generational level long range shooter. More than that, he's the best long range shooter in the league's entire history. He's proven he can keep burning other teams even with excessive hard contact used against him ( he doesn't flop and he doesn't cry for foul calls even though it's clear he's often entitled to both on many occasions)  He has lightning quick consistent release that can be unleashed even with double coverage draped all over him.

What's also not addressed is though Curry would be exposed to more aggressive abuse in the age of the tolerated enforcer types, he would also have enforcer types on his own team. If you hit Curry, this time around, in the past, someone like Rick Mahorn would forearm shiver someone into the ground for it. Could other teams savage Curry with physicality? For a while, until the counter beatdowns started to take effect. Your argument seems to rest on a one sided notion of Gretzky getting hammered without the reality that Marty McSorley also existed.

OK, so maybe Curry has to take a few more mid range jumpers. His shot is wet, why would that bother him. He's a generational level shooter and he just needs a little daylight to stab you in the heart.  Also today's jumbo wings have incredible length, which impacts all the passing lanes. In a previous era where players didn't have the same length/athleticism/recovery, Wardell could turn into a passing machine when he wasn't bombing other teams into oblivion.

Would fit matter? Probably. If Curry played for the first iteration of Nellieball then Don Nelson brought up Steve Alford for the express purpose of taking set shot three pointers on a fast break opportunity. Not attack the rim, but get his feet set and launch threes. Some teams would likely use Curry better than others but every team could use Curry. The current Warriors "motion offense" incorporates elements from all the major systems. Triangle, Four Out, Seven Seconds Or Less, Nellieball, Princeton, Wooden's 2/3 high set, etc, etc. There is no system where Curry would not eventually adapt and find a way to thrive.

To assess Curry in the same class as a Trent Tucker / Craig Hodges / Dale Ellis archetype just because he entered a slight time machine is actually bizarre and makes no sense.

Long range shooting always translates. And Curry is a gunner on an entirely different level than everyone else in NBA history. Maybe a Tyrone Hill or a Kevin Willis would need to do a little more bulldozing to clear Wardell a path, but I don't see why he wouldn't eventually adapt.

Spacing would compress some and that would impact some dynamics, but what changes the lethality of the greatest individual long range bomber in league history?

 
Getting Rui back could also help a lot.  He seemed like he was really developing nicely towards the end of last season. 


Washington has been in a bizarre position, mostly with Ernie Grunfeld, of drafting guys who are mostly interesting, but never for the actual Wizards.

I just don't see how Rui, Deni Avdija and Corey Kispert help that team long term. Some of the moves over time like trading Rubio for Randy Foye and Mike Miller and drafting Jan Vesley are completely indefensible.

But you can see how drafting Porter, Oubre and even JaVale McGee might make sense given the time and place when they were actually drafted. If Grunfeld was guilty of anything, it was ignoring the issue of BBIQ overall in his prospects.

Washington has turned itself into some kind of unintentional farm team where their draftees end up being somewhat useful to the rest of the league over time. They were bailed out of John Wall and then they were bailed out of Westbrook, that was pretty lucky. The return they got for RWB from the Lakers because LeGM is an idiot was a nice haul for an objectively bad contract.

The entire JaVale McGee story is completely 30 For 30 worthy. The guy's entire career and background is fascinating on some level. It's too bad his most egregiously self inflicted stupid time in the league came with the Wizards. There's a 2-3 year stretch where it looks like his career has finally flamed out and then he starts winning championships and ends up an Olympian.

 
He would be a spot up shooter in an era when they didnt shoot a lot of threes but he would not have been able to get past anyone. 
Curry would have been elite even in an era with more physicality allowed.  Look at one of the leagues best 3 point shooters in history—Reggie Miller—he did most of his damage hitting 3’s through his movement away from the ball.  Curry is not just lethal at hitting 3’s by creating and dribbling into them—but he’s definitely one of the best players in history in regards to his movement away from the ball. Sure—he doesn’t have the height that Reggie had—but he’s certainly quicker than Reggie and he does have an insanely quick release.   That speed, quick release on his shot, and his effective movement away from the ball would absolutely translate well into different eras.   The extra physicality would probably hurt his effectiveness in regards to driving to the basket—-but his midrange game is strong.  I think he’d still be a lethal player—but his field goal percentage could drop a bit if he ended up replacing some of his layups with pull up mid range jumpers. 

 
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Curry would have been elite even in an era with more physicality allowed.  Look at one of the leagues best 3 point shooters in history—Reggie Miller—he did most of his damage hitting 3’s through his movement away from the ball.  Curry is not just lethal at hitting 3’s by creating and dribbling into them—but he’s definitely one of the best players in history in regards to his movement away from the ball. Sure—he doesn’t have the height that Reggie had—but he’s certainly quicker than Reggie and he does have an insanely quick release.   That speed, quick release on his shot, and his effective movement away from the ball would absolutely translate well into different eras.   The extra physicality would probably hurt his effectiveness in regards to driving to the basket—-but his midrange game is strong.  I think he’d still be a lethal player—but his field goal percentage could drop a bit if he ended up replacing some of his layups with pull up mid range jumpers. 


You just described a spot up shooter. Exactly like his dad and Reggie Miller, only shorter. 

 
the key and era-translatability to Curry is the release time. i dont know if they've broken it down, but Steph's up on a trey has to be a half or third of the guys before him. a gen of copiers have dulled our eye to that difference. i remember not thinking it would translate to the pros when my eyes popped out like everybody's who watched his run in the NCAAs, but the release time ended up making the difference. before the zone, he would have just had a lot more fake&drives. he's a tough li'l SOB and still practices the lost art of driving into the body of bigs, so that would be no prob. different then, but as good - and, of course, the game would have learned that 3 is actually 1 more than 2 a LOT quicker.

 
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Also physicality or not...do you adjust for the fact that Steph is bigger and stronger than the guys in that era in many cases? I guess it depends how far back you go but Steph is listed at 10 lbs over Jerry West even though an inch shorter. 4 inches shorter than MJ but only 13 pounds lighter. I've played with Steph, and while I'm definitely no bodybuilder, Steph was freakin jacked. Dude could body me with some ease and I've got 10 pounds and an inch or two on him.

 
Also physicality or not...do you adjust for the fact that Steph is bigger and stronger than the guys in that era in many cases? I guess it depends how far back you go but Steph is listed at 10 lbs over Jerry West even though an inch shorter. 4 inches shorter than MJ but only 13 pounds lighter. I've played with Steph, and while I'm definitely no bodybuilder, Steph was freakin jacked. Dude could body me with some ease and I've got 10 pounds and an inch or two on him.
Don't know when you played with him but he is even more jacked now.  He obviously hit the weight room over the past two years.

 
Great posts thus far on Steph Curry going Marty McFly into NBA history.  I tend to agree that his game would largely translate in some way, but don't believe he'd be the top 15 player of all-time that he'll retire as.  My biggest concern are his ankles.  His career almost derailed with modern medicine circa 10 years ago...20+ years ago and I'm not sure his career lasts past that second contract.

Sure glad it did though, Steph Curry is not only the best all-time shooter in basketball history but one of the most entertaining players of all-time to watch.  A handful of players enter the league and offer you, as a fan of a team (or opponent?), their career ride and know in the moment that this player will be "that guy" for your franchise, in your lifetime.  Jordan in CHI, Duncan in SA, Dirk in DAL, Curry with GSW, Giannis in MIL...sometimes you just have to enjoy the ride while it's happening.

 
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A handful of players enter the league and offer you, as a fan of a team (or opponent?), their career ride and know in the moment that this player will be "that guy" for your franchise, in your lifetime.  Jordan in CHI, Duncan in SA, Dirk in DAL, Curry with GSW, Giannis in MIL...sometimes you just have to enjoy the ride while it's happening.


Edwards in Minnesota. 

 
Curry would have been elite even in an era with more physicality allowed.  Look at one of the leagues best 3 point shooters in history—Reggie Miller—he did most of his damage hitting 3’s through his movement away from the ball.  Curry is not just lethal at hitting 3’s by creating and dribbling into them—but he’s definitely one of the best players in history in regards to his movement away from the ball. Sure—he doesn’t have the height that Reggie had—but he’s certainly quicker than Reggie and he does have an insanely quick release.   That speed, quick release on his shot, and his effective movement away from the ball would absolutely translate well into different eras.   The extra physicality would probably hurt his effectiveness in regards to driving to the basket—-but his midrange game is strong.  I think he’d still be a lethal player—but his field goal percentage could drop a bit if he ended up replacing some of his layups with pull up mid range jumpers. 


You just described every shooter ever that relied on a play designed to get them the ball.  Off ball cuts or picks to get them the space they can't get dribbling.

ie the exact opposite of what makes steph great and so much fun to watch.

 
what's the point of comparing guys who have been honing their bodies, abilities, diet, psychology basically their entire lives strictly for the purpose of being good basketball players... that fly private from city to city, with world class rehab available 24 hours a day.... against guys who picked up basketball as an intramural hobby in HS, then went on to work 2 jobs the day after graduation only to get a letter in the mail one day saying "congratulations, you've been drafted by the Knicks in the 28th round". 

those guys took a bus 9 hours to play basketball the day after pulling a double shift at the machine shop and played games in a barn with a warped floor. they didn't tape ankles, take painkillers, sleep in hyperbaric chambers and have surgery paid for by the team.

of course modern.... anything.... is better than the version from 40-50+ years ago.

 
what's the point of comparing guys who have been honing their bodies, abilities, diet, psychology basically their entire lives strictly for the purpose of being good basketball players... that fly private from city to city, with world class rehab available 24 hours a day.... against guys who picked up basketball as an intramural hobby in HS, then went on to work 2 jobs the day after graduation only to get a letter in the mail one day saying "congratulations, you've been drafted by the Knicks in the 28th round". 

those guys took a bus 9 hours to play basketball the day after pulling a double shift at the machine shop and played games in a barn with a warped floor. they didn't tape ankles, take painkillers, sleep in hyperbaric chambers and have surgery paid for by the team.

of course modern.... anything.... is better than the version from 40-50+ years ago.
You mean the coddled and spoiled modern athlete who would cry if Bill Laimbeer looked at him versus the old school chain smoking, rusty nail eating tough guys from the old days who had to stab someone in order to make a basket?

 
Frostillicus said:
You mean the coddled and spoiled modern athlete who would cry if Bill Laimbeer looked at him versus the old school chain smoking, rusty nail eating tough guys from the old days who had to stab someone in order to make a basket?


i once went to a game and sat in the smoking section. watched old Haywood Johnson actually stab a guy to death on the court. no foul called.

that was when the game meant something.

 
Instinctive said:
Also physicality or not...do you adjust for the fact that Steph is bigger and stronger than the guys in that era in many cases? I guess it depends how far back you go but Steph is listed at 10 lbs over Jerry West even though an inch shorter. 4 inches shorter than MJ but only 13 pounds lighter. I've played with Steph, and while I'm definitely no bodybuilder, Steph was freakin jacked. Dude could body me with some ease and I've got 10 pounds and an inch or two on him.
He's basically the same size as Isiah Thomas, who managed to do OK for himself

 
Enes Kanter Freedom is a breath of fresh air on the NBA. No one is off limits. Today he called out Jeremy Lin for not speaking out the China Government Dictatorship and called him a traitor for leaving his people out to dry when he could be making a difference rather then stay silent. 

He's already gone after Lebron multiple times which IMHO is needed way too many people glad hand him instead of calling out his hypocrisy. Kanter has spoken to Adam Silver to make sure what he's doing is ok by league rules. Silver apparently told him he's free to make his comments and opinion known. 

WHAT I'M SURE SILVER DIDN"T SAY WAS WE'D AKA THE NBA WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO #### FOR CALLING US ALL OUT FOR THE HYPOCRITES WE ALL ARE AND MAKING EVERYONE LOOK BAD ESPECIALLY LEBRON. HE'S ALREADY HAD HIS FEELINGS HURT AS IS. 

 
mr. furley said:
what's the point of comparing guys who have been honing their bodies, abilities, diet, psychology basically their entire lives strictly for the purpose of being good basketball players... that fly private from city to city, with world class rehab available 24 hours a day.... against guys who picked up basketball as an intramural hobby in HS, then went on to work 2 jobs the day after graduation only to get a letter in the mail one day saying "congratulations, you've been drafted by the Knicks in the 28th round". 

those guys took a bus 9 hours to play basketball the day after pulling a double shift at the machine shop and played games in a barn with a warped floor. they didn't tape ankles, take painkillers, sleep in hyperbaric chambers and have surgery paid for by the team.

of course modern.... anything.... is better than the version from 40-50+ years ago.


I think the point is some people including players don't realize how much better they have today then they did prior. Be grateful for those who got you there and respect the game. Many of these players are spoiled entitled brats who are incredible soft and can't take any constructive criticism. The league is very conservative on helping players defend and pretty liberal with what they allow for more offense. The game physically is a lot easier and less physical. Can't even look at a guy wrong without ref blowing his whistle for a foul or Ting up a guy for some trash talking. What they should be Ting up is all the flopping going on (which IMHO should warrant an automatic ejection) as well as guys complaining about "fouls" not being called when a guy barely touches them. Guys taking possessions off and no accountability shown by anyone. 

The NBA really needs a lockout before things get totally out of hand. Players have way too much control impacting the league. Hopefully the owners grow their balls back and prepare for the next CBA which both Players and Owners can mutually opt out of after the next league season I believe. And Trust me if I'm the owners I'm looking to terminate Early and get some power back. There's a lot of stuff the NBA needs to fix and the last one just put band aids on things that needed stitches or a full reconstructive surgery. Now letting it linger it's not infected very poorly. 

 
Enes Kanter Freedom is a breath of fresh air on the NBA. No one is off limits. Today he called out Jeremy Lin for not speaking out the China Government Dictatorship and called him a traitor for leaving his people out to dry when he could be making a difference rather then stay silent. 

He's already gone after Lebron multiple times which IMHO is needed way too many people glad hand him instead of calling out his hypocrisy. Kanter has spoken to Adam Silver to make sure what he's doing is ok by league rules. Silver apparently told him he's free to make his comments and opinion known. 

WHAT I'M SURE SILVER DIDN"T SAY WAS WE'D AKA THE NBA WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO #### FOR CALLING US ALL OUT FOR THE HYPOCRITES WE ALL ARE AND MAKING EVERYONE LOOK BAD ESPECIALLY LEBRON. HE'S ALREADY HAD HIS FEELINGS HURT AS IS. 
So you're clearly enjoying Kanter calling out Lebron. How do you reconcile that with your love of Jordan who never, ever got involved in anyting political. Seems sort of picky choosy. 

 
I think the point is some people including players don't realize how much better they have today then they did prior. Be grateful for those who got you there and respect the game. Many of these players are spoiled entitled brats who are incredible soft and can't take any constructive criticism. The league is very conservative on helping players defend and pretty liberal with what they allow for more offense. The game physically is a lot easier and less physical. Can't even look at a guy wrong without ref blowing his whistle for a foul or Ting up a guy for some trash talking. What they should be Ting up is all the flopping going on (which IMHO should warrant an automatic ejection) as well as guys complaining about "fouls" not being called when a guy barely touches them. Guys taking possessions off and no accountability shown by anyone. 

The NBA really needs a lockout before things get totally out of hand. Players have way too much control impacting the league. Hopefully the owners grow their balls back and prepare for the next CBA which both Players and Owners can mutually opt out of after the next league season I believe. And Trust me if I'm the owners I'm looking to terminate Early and get some power back. There's a lot of stuff the NBA needs to fix and the last one just put band aids on things that needed stitches or a full reconstructive surgery. Now letting it linger it's not infected very poorly. 
You should just watch youtubes of 1970s college ball. The nba you think you remember never existed. 

 
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So you're clearly enjoying Kanter calling out Lebron. How do you reconcile that with your love of Jordan who never, ever got involved in anyting political. Seems sort of picky choosy. 


Not really game has involved and more stuff happens. Some guys aren't comfortable talking about stuff they don't understand. I'd rather some one be quiet instead of acting like they know stuff on something they clearly don't. 

 
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