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2021 New York football Giants (3 Viewers)

need2know said:
What took so long to get rid of Judge?   He was so bad.  He should have been canned long ago.   
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the double QB sneak at 4-12, that was it too a lot of us.   down 3-0 with nothing to lose.   you take your balls out and go double qb sneak.    agree it should have been earlier.      be shocked if he gets another NFL job.

 
kodycutter said:
the double QB sneak at 4-12, that was it too a lot of us.   down 3-0 with nothing to lose.   you take your balls out and go double qb sneak.    agree it should have been earlier.      be shocked if he gets another NFL job.
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He wasnt fired sooner because he is an incredbly good bull####ter ... and that is why I will not be shocked if he lands another NFL job 

 
Giants fired Joe Judge.

Chalk up another loss for Bill Belichick's coaching tree. Responsible for New York's fourth and fifth consecutive losing seasons over the last two years, Judge's tenure comes to a comical end with an embarrassing 10-23 record and far more bark than bite including zero 30-point games, 16 contests in which the Giants failed to reach 300 yards of total offense, and a Week 18 3rd-and-9 white flag with a quarterback sneak from the team's own five-yard line. It's truly up in the air whether Judge will land anywhere in the NFL since he was severely outclassed in every aspect of game planning and in-game coaching weekly. The Giants will thus overhaul its general manager, head coach, and perhaps quarterback positions ahead of the 2022 season.

In a statement released Tuesday, Giants owner John Mara said that “We will hire a general manager and that person will lead the effort to hire a new head coach.”

The Giants let go of both head coach Joe Judge and GM Dave Gettleman – who technically "retired" – after Week 18, and they will evidently find a new general manager before they start looking for a new coach. Mara went on to acknowledge that it was difficult to be optimistic about the direction the Giants were headed in under the previous regime, but he went on to express that he hopes the next coach and general manager will lead the G-Men to the success ownership is hoping for.

- ProFootballTalk
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It's going to be interesting to see if Mara will finally learn and get it right or if he's going to continue to force senior leaders on whoever he hires as GM and HC.  Abrams, Chris Mara and McDonnell are all terrible and are all in senior leadership positions.  I don't expect Mara and McDonnell to go anywhere since they're family.  Abrams, however, is one of the people primarily responsible for the current state of the team.  He's in charge of the salary cap and contract negotiations.  He had a primary role in handing out those idiotic contracts and as a result the team has no talent but is in cap hell anyway.  Forcing these people on the new GM won't turn out well IMO.  

With the HC, will Mara do the same thing he did to Judge when he forced him to hire/keep Garrett?  Graham is the only assistant coach I wouldn't complain about keeping around. 

Mara is clearly the main problem with this franchise.

 
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Mara really owned up to a lot, this was a tough presser for him. I think if Judge doesn't lose his mind with the QB sneak stuff he would have stayed on as Giants coach.

Ralph Vacchiano @RVacchianoSNY

Why should Giants fans trust John Mara will get things right this time? Said Mara: "Well, I haven’t given them any reason to believe that. It’s up to Steve and I to make the right choices going forward to earn back their trust. That is not going to be an overnight process."
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EDIT: I'll say this: there's no way you bring back Daniel Jones now. The GM/coach arguably lost their jobs because of Jones, can't keep him around now. Get a vet QB who knows what he's doing as a 1-year stopgap and let the new regime draft a QB.

 
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The Frankman said:
Mara really owned up to a lot, this was a tough presser for him. I think if Judge doesn't lose his mind with the QB sneak stuff he would have stayed on as Giants coach.

EDIT: I'll say this: there's no way you bring back Daniel Jones now. The GM/coach arguably lost their jobs because of Jones, can't keep him around now. Get a vet QB who knows what he's doing as a 1-year stopgap and let the new regime draft a QB.
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I don’t see how they move off DJ now considering their cap situation. I understand not signing the 5th year option though.

His cap hit and dead cap hit are almost equal, both slightly over 8M.

Obviously, they need to sign a better backup one who is not an immobile statue.

 
I think you keep Jones next season. Build from the inside out. Use the draft capital to get O-linemen and an edge rusher. Bring in real coaches who can teach and give Jones another year to develop. You're tearing the building down,build the foundation,next season is a rebuilding year anyway,keep Jones one more year,build the line,then go get your QB the year after,this year's class is mediocre at best. Be happy with 4 wins next year,if we're the youngest team in the league I can live with that.

 
Jones will be the QB next year, unless the neck "thing" is like David Wilson's.      we may have a better schedule next year but this is not a roster that gets 5+ wins easily. (all the nfc east teams look improved but us).  

really need to nail this year's draft and get a qb in the 2023 draft.

 
The Frankman said:
Mara really owned up to a lot, this was a tough presser for him. I think if Judge doesn't lose his mind with the QB sneak stuff he would have stayed on as Giants coach.

EDIT: I'll say this: there's no way you bring back Daniel Jones now. The GM/coach arguably lost their jobs because of Jones, can't keep him around now. Get a vet QB who knows what he's doing as a 1-year stopgap and let the new regime draft a QB.
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Stop with your hardon for Jones  ... He's not going anywhere next year and justifiably so. The Guy had one of the best rookie QB season in NFL history and has been the only positive on this #### team for the past 2 seasons.  A veteran stop gap makes zero sense with Jones already under contract on a favorable rookie deal and there are no QBs woth drafting in the first 8 picks this season. 

Not to be rude but dont forget that you were a huge Haskins and Darnold pumper which kinda kills your QB evaluating credibility.    

 
monk said:
Stop with your hardon for Jones  ... He's not going anywhere next year and justifiably so. The Guy had one of the best rookie QB season in NFL history and has been the only positive on this #### team for the past 2 seasons.  A veteran stop gap makes zero sense with Jones already under contract on a favorable rookie deal and there are no QBs woth drafting in the first 8 picks this season. 

Not to be rude but dont forget that you were a huge Haskins and Darnold pumper which kinda kills your QB evaluating credibility.    
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Haskins made sense in that at least he was more proven than Jones in college. He got swallowed up by immaturity and y'know ... actually being in Washington. Darnold was legit good but any shred of talent in him was killed on the Jets and he's possibly irrevocably broken... which is why some young QBs have a shelf life (aka the David Carr scenario). Jones (as I said on draft night) is dangerously close to early Ryan Tannehill: tease you by showing flashes but ultimately not a franchise QB. He's nowhere close to showing NFL intelligence and doesn't make his teammates better. He's still prone to those godawful mistakes/INTs and the idea that Jones is a good QBs and it was really everyone around him that was the real problem is laughable.

I get that it may not be cost-effective to let him go now/may not be a vet QB around as cheap as Jones so Giants have to keep him around for a year.

 
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If you can't effectively evaluate a player who's been a starter for 3 years, I think you have your answer.  I agree with @The Frankman - he has no football intelligence.  He makes the same mistakes over and over.  He's been injured and missed games every year.  He's played in 38 games and has thrown 29 INTs and fumbled the ball 36 times.  He's a lot like Darnold - he has physical talent, but he can't read a defense or stop turning the ball over.  Hopefully the Giants can trade him for what the NYJ got for Darnold.  

 
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The Frankman said:
Haskins made sense in that at least he was more proven than Jones in college. He got swallowed up by immaturity and y'know ... actually being in Washington. Darnold was legit good but any shred of talent in him was killed on the Jets and he's possibly irrevocably broken... which is why some young QBs have a shelf life (aka the David Carr scenario). Jones (as I said on draft night) is dangerously close to early Ryan Tannehill: tease you by showing flashes but ultimately not a franchise QB. He's nowhere close to showing NFL intelligence and doesn't make his teammates better. He's still prone to those godawful mistakes/INTs and the idea that Jones is a good QBs and it was really everyone around him that was the real problem is laughable.

I get that it may not be cost-effective to let him go now/may not be a vet QB around as cheap as Jones so Giants have to keep him around for a year.
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Both Haskins and Darnold were in the same or better situations than Jones and failed miserably 

Jones does not have INT problem he has a Fumble problem. He has improved upon both year over year 

  • 19 fum 11 lost (2019) Ints 12 (23 - Tied for 4th  with Rivers and Mayfield) 
  • 11 fum 6 lost (2020) Ints 10 (16 - tied for 10th with Murray and Josh Allen) 
  • 7 fum 3 lost (2021) Ints  7  (10 - Not even in the top 25  QBs )
Last time I looked Ryan Tannehill was the QB on the #1 Seed in the AFC and has a Bye this week 

 
monk said:
Both Haskins and Darnold were in the same or better situations than Jones and failed miserably 

Jones does not have INT problem he has a Fumble problem. He has improved upon both year over year 

  • 19 fum 11 lost (2019) Ints 12 (23 - Tied for 4th  with Rivers and Mayfield) 
  • 11 fum 6 lost (2020) Ints 10 (16 - tied for 10th with Murray and Josh Allen) 
  • 7 fum 3 lost (2021) Ints  7  (10 - Not even in the top 25  QBs )
Last time I looked Ryan Tannehill was the QB on the #1 Seed in the AFC and has a Bye this week 
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Okay he did make a significant improvement from Year 1 to Year 2, but the improvement in year 3 was fairly small  if you factor in games played: 16 TO's in 14 games in year 2, 10 turnovers in 11 games in year 3

 
RC94 said:
If you can't effectively evaluate a player who's been a starter for 3 years, I think you have your answer.  I agree with @The Frankman - he has no football intelligence.  He makes the same mistakes over and over.  He's been injured and missed games every year.  He's played in 38 games and has thrown 29 INTs and fumbled the ball 36 times.  He's a lot like Darnold - he has physical talent, but he can't read a defense or stop turning the ball over.  Hopefully the Giants can trade him for what the NYJ got for Darnold.  
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  • Josh Allen had 29 Int in his first 38 games
  • Kyler Murray had 28 in his first 38 games (31 in his first 40 games)
  • Darnold had 39 ints in his first 38 games
  • Peyton had 28 in his 1st season 
  • The GOAT had 33 in his first 38 Starts 
29 INT is not bad for a first 3 seasons especially when you consider the circumstances and that he has improved sidgnifcantly each year 

 
dhockster said:
Okay he did make a significant improvement from Year 1 to Year 2, but the improvement in year 3 was fairly small  if you factor in games played: 16 TO's in 14 games in year 2, 10 turnovers in 11 games in year 3
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This team was very easily the worst team in the NFL ... but Jones  improved. The only other player on this team who improved was Andrew Thomas and he was injured for 5 of the 11 games that Jones played ... including Jones worst game of the season following a concusion in which he threw 3 of his 7 ints. Jones only threw Ints in 4 of 11 games

 
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monk said:
  • Josh Allen had 29 Int in his first 38 games
  • Kyler Murray had 28 in his first 38 games (31 in his first 40 games)
  • Darnold had 39 ints in his first 38 games
  • Peyton had 28 in his 1st season 
  • The GOAT had 33 in his first 38 Starts 
29 INT is not bad for a first 3 seasons especially when you consider the circumstances and that he has improved sidgnifcantly each year 
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He hasn't improve at all each year, let alone significantly.  His best year was his rookie year.  It's time to move on from him.

 
RC94 said:
He hasn't improve at all each year, let alone significantly.  His best year was his rookie year.  It's time to move on from him.
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Great analysis ! I know you put a lot into it but let's go with what the New GM and coach decide

Are you saying that you would use one of the Giants 1st rd picks on a QB in a QB weak Draft?

 
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kodycutter said:
Hakeem Nicks turned 34 today.
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It's amazing how many really good receivers got hurt/couldn't finish their career in Eli Manning's tenure: Plaxico Burress, Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz...

EDIT:

SNY.tv's Ralph Vacchiano reports Brian Flores and Brian Daboll are the frontrunner to land the Giants head coaching job. 

[...] The Dolphins are pursuing Daboll -- the team is reportedly flying to Buffalo to interview the Bills' offensive coordinator -- and Flores is in the running for the Texans and Bears head coaching jobs. The Giants, according to Vacchiano, should decide on their next general manager by the end of this week. The new GM will have an outsized role in selecting the team's next head coach after Joe Judge was dismissed following a disastrous 2021 season. If Daboll gets the Giants job, look for offseason chatter about Daboll doing for Daniel Jones what he did for Josh Allen in Buffalo.

- SNYtv.com
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The Athletic - ‘This place is . . . messed up’: Under Maras’ hands-on ownership, Giants slide from model franchise to dysfunction

Excellent piece. For those w/o an Athletic sub, I'll copy/paste the whole article

On a picturesque late-September day in the swamplands of New Jersey, the New York Giants paid homage to Eli Manning. It was supposed to be a moment of pure adulation and nostalgia as the team retired the quarterback’s No. 10 jersey at halftime of their game against the Falcons.

But the vibe changed abruptly when co-owner John Mara took the microphone. Boos rained down from Giants fans, who have had little to celebrate since Manning — a player Mara revered deeply — led the team to a Super Bowl title 10 years ago.

Standing behind Mara, Manning gestured for the crowd to stop. And the boos transformed into thunderous ovation when the beloved Manning, who won two Super Bowl MVPs during 16 seasons as the Giants’ starting quarterback, addressed the crowd.

But the fans’ message to Mara reverberated.

Just as he is today, Mara was president of the Giants when the franchise won Super Bowls in 2007 and 2011. But he has drawn fans’ ire for steering the Giants back into the dark days.

With a 4-13 record in 2021, New York posted double-digit losses for the fifth straight season and the seventh in the past eight years. Responsibility for the team’s decline extends to every corner of the organization. And now, as Mara and co-owner Steve Tisch begin another quest to return to prominence after general manager Dave Gettleman’s retirement and coach Joe Judge’s firing, they do so with current and former employees eager to share the dysfunction within the organization, ex-players disgusted by the product on the field and a fan base that has transitioned from outraged to apathetic.

“It’s hard to have confidence in anything the organization is doing,” said Chris Canty, who played defensive line for the Giants from 2009 to 2012. “The reality is this team has been really, really bad. But once the organization recognizes that they are dysfunctional, I think that’s the beginning of when they can get things turned around.”

The Giants have been the Mara family business since Tim Mara, John’s grandfather, invested $500 to found the club in 1925. A flagship franchise that enjoyed stretches as a model organization (six NFL championship game appearances between 1956 and 1963, including a title in 1956), the Giants have also endured a period bleaker than this current malaise.

Things got so bad that in 1978, amid a playoff drought that stretched from 1964 to 1981, fans rented an airplane to fly over Giants Stadium during a game towing a banner that read: “15 years of lousy football — we’ve had enough.”

The Giants were more of a mess off the field, with co-owners Wellington Mara (Tim’s son and John’s father) and Tim Mara (the franchise founder’s grandson and Wellington’s nephew) engaged in a bitter feud. The conflict came to a head after the 1978 season as the Giants searched for a general manager and a head coach.

Wellington Mara had long run the football side of the family business with a penchant for hiring familiar faces, such as former Giants greats Andy Robustelli as GM and Alex Webster as coach.

“It always seemed like Well wanted to hire from within,” said Whitey Walsh, whose 38-year career as a Giants scout began in 1973. “We really had no general manager. Wellington Mara made all the decisions.”

Robustelli was fired after the franchise hit rock bottom with an infamous fumble by quarterback Joe Pisarcik to blow a game against the Eagles late in the 1978 season, and the dueling Maras couldn’t agree on a replacement. NFL commissioner Pete Rozelle was forced to intercede, presenting an outsider, Dolphins director of player personnel George Young, as a compromise candidate.

When Young took over, Wellington relinquished control of football operations.

“At last, the Giants have installed an ‘ability’ concept and abandoned the ‘family’ concept,” wrote the New York Times.

It wasn’t always easy for Wellington to cede authority. He called it “a day of overwhelming sadness” when Young cut Super Bowl-winning quarterback Phil Simms in 1994. But despite his misgivings, the owner didn’t interfere with the decision.

Young guided the Giants to Super Bowl titles in 1986 and 1990. After the second Super Bowl, Tim Mara sold his 50 percent share of the team to Bob Tisch, the billionaire owner of the Loews Corporation.

Young retired after the 1997 season and was succeeded by assistant general manager Ernie Accorsi, who led the Giants to a Super Bowl appearance in 2000. Wellington Mara died in October 2005, with John, his oldest child, taking over as leader of the franchise. Bob Tisch died a month later, and his oldest son, Steve, an Oscar-winning producer, became the head of his family’s share of the team.

John Mara has been immersed in the family business his entire life, but he officially joined the Giants as general counsel in 1991. When he took control after Wellington’s death 14 years later, John’s leadership style mirrored his father’s.

“He mostly deferred to whoever was running the show,” Walsh said.

Mara had a few major decisions early in his tenure as team president. Despite contemplating a change after the 2006 season, he and Tisch stuck with coach Tom Coughlin, hired two years prior. Ownership faced a far more complicated decision after Accorsi’s retirement that offseason.

There were four strong internal candidates to succeed him as GM: Gettleman, the director of pro personnel; director of player personnel Jerry Reese; assistant general manager Kevin Abrams and vice president of player evaluation Chris Mara, John’s younger brother.

Chris Mara’s candidacy was tricky. Sure, he was a part-owner, but he paid his dues, becoming a Giants scout in 1979 and spending 14 years combing the country for draft prospects. “He was one of the best scouts,” said Jerry Shay, a Giants scout from 1973 to 2011. “I just think he had a great knack for recognizing talent.”

When Young blocked Chris’ ascension to head of player personnel — “We can’t have any fire-proof heads of player personnel,” Young said, according to Accorsi’s biography — Chris left in 1994 to start an independent scouting service that evaluated free agents for NFL teams. He did that for eight years before a two-year stint as general manager of the Arena League’s New Jersey Gladiators. The Gladiators moved to Las Vegas in 2003, and, with Wellington aging, Chris returned to the Giants as VP of player evaluation.

Four years later, he desperately wanted to run the team.

“I thought he could be the one that could have taken over (as GM),” Walsh said. “But you have to understand, there’s two owners. The Tisches didn’t want the Maras to get too far ahead of them and the Maras didn’t want the Tisches to get too far ahead of them. So they couldn’t have another Mara after John took over. That wouldn’t sit well with the Tisch family.”

With the Tisches blocking Chris’ hire, the Giants turned to Reese, who had been in the organization since 1994 and played a key role in drafting the core of future Super Bowl rosters. According to Accorsi’s biography, a crestfallen Chris Mara did not attend Reese’s introductory news conference, but John Mara made clear his brother would remain an influential figure.

“He has an important role right now,” John Mara said then, “and he will probably have a more important role going forward.”

Whatever friction existed in the front office after Reese’s hiring didn’t prevent the Giants from going on an inspired run to Super Bowl 42, where they captured the franchise’s third title by upsetting the previously undefeated Patriots.

Chris Mara interviewed for the Falcons’ GM job in 2008 — with Accorsi serving as an advisor on the search — but withdrew from consideration. He was promoted to senior vice president of player personnel in 2011 before the Giants’ second title under Reese.

There was no scrutiny of Chris Mara’s role when the Giants were winning Super Bowls. Perhaps best known as the father of movie-star daughters Kate and Rooney, Chris was viewed as a bright football mind who contributed to championship teams, earning specific credit for the team’s 2007 seventh-round selection of productive running back Ahmad Bradshaw.

But there has been significant turnover during the Giants’ decline, while he maintains his lofty title.

It’s nearly impossible to trace any personnel decision to an individual member of a front office. A former Giants scout explained the layered process for evaluating top draft prospects: Reports are generated by the primary area scout, another area scout, a regional scout, the director of college scouting, the general manager, the position coach, the coordinator, the head coach and, oftentimes, Chris Mara, who a former scout said mostly focuses on the top 100 prospects.

Rarely is there 100 percent agreement within those evaluations, so a consensus is reached through a series of meetings leading up to the draft. The general manager has final say, with John Mara signing off on major decisions.

It’s challenging to quantify if one voice carries more weight in that collaborative process. And even Chris Mara’s critics concede that he’s not an overpowering presence in personnel meetings. But former employees also said his opinions implicitly carry more weight.

“You can’t treat him the same as a scout or a coach,” said a former member of the Giants front office. “If the owner says something, you’re going to have to take that into account more so than someone else. I know this guy owns the team, so we have to sort of navigate around what he wants.”

Considering he is one of the three people conducting GM interviews, along with John Mara and Steve Tisch, it’s understandable why that feeling would exist — Chris Mara has a hand in hiring the person he will report to.

John Mara, who wasn’t made available for an interview for this story, said in a news conference last week that “Chris is a very skilled evaluator, but he does not have any authority here other than the fact that I will go to him on occasion and ask him about players.”

“It doesn’t matter what you talk about in the meetings when they go home for dinner and they’re brothers and they’re family,” a former front-office member said. “It’s just a whole dynamic that you can’t fight.”

An executive of a rival NFL team with no family members in the personnel department understood how the Giants’ structure could create problems.

“You’re inviting more dysfunction when someone has a direct line to ownership and you don’t. There’s maybe a little bit of distrust there,” the executive said. “If your voice is being heard simply because of who you are, but you’re not necessarily putting the work in, there’s all sorts of things that could derive from that.”

It didn’t sit well with some colleagues when Chris Mara, a partner in Starlight Racing, left the Giants’ war room during the third day of the 2015 draft to watch his horse run in the Kentucky Derby. New York made one pick during Mara’s flight to Louisville and another after he arrived at Churchill Downs. “Look, if we were in the first or second round today, I probably wouldn’t be here,” Mara told a Sports Illustrated reporter chronicling his double duty.

“Is that really your priority over what we’re doing here in the draft?” a former member of the front office said. “It’s something that all the other guys just couldn’t do.”

Chris doesn’t go on the road to scout college games during the fall. His in-person scouting is typically limited to postseason all-star games, the scouting combine and college pro days. According to multiple current members of the organization, he has been less hands-on in recent years.

“I think he figures, ‘#### it, I’ll come around when I want to,'” a former Giants coach said. “He’s not answering to anybody.”

While Chris’ influence in the scouting process is nebulous, there’s less ambiguity about his role in other major organizational decisions. John Mara said his brother’s input would be “very crucial” in the 2017 GM search that led to Gettleman’s hiring. Chris then joined John, Gettleman and Abrams in composing the list of head coaching candidates in 2020, when Judge was hired. And, as noted, Chris is currently interviewing GM candidates. Those duties belie John Mara’s claim that his brother “spends most of his time doing evaluation of college players.”

The objections raised by former employees aren’t that Chris Mara has responsibilities that extend beyond others in the front office; the Maras own the team, they’re free to run it how they see fit. The problem critics have is the lack of accountability with how the Giants operate.

“(Cowboys owner) Jerry Jones is out there, like, ‘Yeah, I’m doing this.’ He’s not hiding. He’s not in the shadows,” a former front-office employee said. “He’s like, ‘Me and (son) Stephen are doing this. We messed up? OK, here we are.’ It’s different where they’re up front about it and they’re accountable for their decisions.”

Chris Mara put in the work as a scout to advance to his position, but while there have been changes throughout the front office, he has remained. It’s the very thing Young was guarding against decades ago.

Tim McDonnell grew up around the Giants and always wanted to work for the team. But after playing wide receiver at Holy Cross, McDonnell, whose mother Susan is the second oldest of Wellington Mara’s 11 children, was told to go prove himself elsewhere.

Working for another NFL team would be awkward, so McDonnell got a job on Charlie Weis’ staff at Notre Dame in 2005. He began at the lowest level, doing everything from work as a quality control coach to picking up Weis’ son from school. McDonnell was promoted to director of personnel in 2009 and maintained that role after Weis was replaced by Brian Kelly the next year. After four years organizing Notre Dame’s recruiting efforts, McDonnell returned to the family business as a pro scout.

“Tim is probably the most respected guy we have in this building,” said John Mara. “The coaches, front-office staff, the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator. He’s worked his way up from the bottom and he’s earned his stripes.”

McDonnell earns universal praise for his work ethic. And a former member of the coaching staff supported Mara’s claim about the respect for McDonnell within the organization. “I think Tim is the best of the personnel people in there,” the former coach said. “He wants to change things and get it right.”

But McDonnell’s ascension has raised eyebrows. He spent six years as a pro scout before getting promoted by Gettleman to assistant director of player personnel in 2019. Two years later, he was named co-director of player personnel. For perspective on where that title ranks in the hierarchy of an NFL front office, three of the nine candidates for the Giants GM job are currently directors of player personnel for their teams.

“He hasn’t cut his teeth long enough to be co-director of player personnel,” said a former Giants scout.

John Mara insisted last week that McDonnell “does not have any authority.” But his prominence undoubtedly has grown. When war rooms for the 2021 draft were limited to 10 people due to COVID-19 restrictions, McDonnell had a spot among the Giants’ top decision-makers.

Current and former employees say McDonnell is close to director of college scouting Chris Pettit, who has also climbed the ladder during the team’s tailspin. An area scout for 13 years before getting promoted by Gettleman in 2018, Pettit’s job could be in jeopardy with a new GM given the Giants’ poor draft record, but some wonder if he’ll be spared due to his relationship with McDonnell.

“There’s a core group in the protected class in that building,” a former front-office member said.

As with Chris Mara, McDonnell’s family ties will likely work against him if he ever wants to become the Giants’ GM. Instead, he’s viewed by many as the heir apparent to John Mara.

Unlike some NFL owners, such as Tisch, John Mara doesn’t have outside business interests, so most days he’s in meetings and on the practice fields at the team’s headquarters.

Despite his presence, Mara said last week that the general manager and head coach make all of the personnel decisions. A former employee called Mara “the final gavel,” and the owner said he approves “99.99 percent” of decisions, with his only objections occurring “if there’s a conduct issue.”

“No decision is ever really finalized without asking John, ‘You OK with this?'” a former front-office employee said. “Does he tell people how to scout? No. But he’s always involved.”

Mara isn’t a passive observer. He disclosed that during the 2017 season he approached Reese and said, “Don’t you think it’s time that we start to get a look at these other quarterbacks at some point during the games?”

With that, he put into motion the controversial plan to bench Manning. It became a seminal moment in a decade of despair. The backlash from fans, former players and the media was so severe that Reese and coach Ben McAdoo were abruptly fired the day after Geno Smith started in place of the 36-year-old Manning, who was immediately reinserted into the lineup.

Gettleman was hired three weeks later and promptly declared that he would “just keep moving” with Manning as long as the quarterback’s 434-yard passing performance in a loss late in the 2017 season wasn’t a “mirage.” Mara said that Manning was “a significant part of the discussion” during Gettleman’s interview.

Mara has forcefully dismissed the notion that there was a mandate from ownership to stick with Manning, calling it “absolute nonsense.” Still, it would be understandable if prospective GM and head coach candidates read the room after Reese and McAdoo were fired following Manning’s benching.

Rather than taking a quarterback with the second pick in the 2018 draft — Giants brass didn’t view Josh Allen or any of the other top quarterbacks in that class as being worthy of the No. 2 pick — Gettleman selected running back Saquon Barkley. An attempt to win with Manning while rebuilding predictably failed as the Giants went 5-11.

The Giants finally pulled the plug on Manning in 2019 when they took Daniel Jones with the No. 6 pick. Jones took over as the starter three weeks into his rookie season and Manning retired at the conclusion of his 16th year with the Giants.

Three years later, Jones has not established himself as a worthy successor to Manning so questions persist about how the Giants prepared to replace him. Sources close to Mara insist he was antsy to find a successor beginning as early as 2014 or 2015. But a former front-office member contends there was resistance within the organization to move on from Manning despite his declining play behind a compromised offensive line.

“People would be mad after every game and during games about how bad he played,” the former employee said. “Then Monday morning it was like, ‘He’s still Eli.’ Like, did we not just have all these people pissed off about this guy? It was bizarre.”

Whatever debates were happening behind the scenes, the Giants gave Manning a four-year, $84 million extension in 2015, the salary cap implications of which made it unfeasible for the Giants to cut ties with him before 2019.

After consecutive 6-10 seasons, McAdoo was promoted from offensive coordinator to replace Coughlin in 2016, and the Giants went 11-5, mostly carried by a defense bought in free agency.

In the 2017 draft, McAdoo coveted Texas Tech quarterback Patrick Mahomes — “I’d love to get my ####### hands on him,” a front-office source recalled McAdoo saying in a pre-draft meeting after attending Mahomes’ pro day workout — but the Giants stuck with the 23rd pick and took tight end Evan Engram.

The 2016 season proved to be fool’s gold, and the Giants imploded with a 3-13 record the next year. They drafted Davis Webb in the third round of the 2017 draft and Kyle Lauletta in the fourth of the 2018 draft, but neither was a legitimate option to succeed Manning.

“I think it really started to go left when the Giants had a 13-loss season in 2017 and they decided that they wanted to try to hang onto Eli Manning and try to retool it around him rather than tearing the whole thing down and rebuilding,” Canty said. “The Giants weren’t willing to be realistic at a time that was absolutely critical.”

Tisch said after the 2017 season that “there were some things that were mishandled” regarding Manning’s benching, but he didn’t elaborate.

Spending most of his time in Los Angeles, Tisch isn’t involved with the team’s day-to-day operations, according to multiple current and former employees. His brother Jonathan is the team’s treasurer. Jonathan’s son Charles, a low-level football operations assistant since 2018, is the only member of the family involved in the personnel department.

Steve Tisch has participated in this year’s general manager interviews, but that has not always been the case. Tisch often has met with head coach and GM candidates only after they’ve interviewed with John Mara and others involved in searches, such as Gettleman, Abrams and Accorsi. Tisch met with Judge in a boardroom at T.F. Green Airport in Providence, R.I., to rubberstamp the coach’s hire after Judge’s interview with John Mara, Gettleman and Abrams the previous day at the team’s headquarters in New Jersey.

Even if the Tisches aren’t as involved as the Maras, the Giants are the only 50/50 partnership in the NFL, so Steve Tisch can make his voice heard on high-level decisions. Sources said he wanted a total house-cleaning after the 2019 season, but the Giants fired coach Pat Shurmur and retained Gettleman. In a statement announcing Gettleman’s retirement last week, Tisch’s displeasure with the state of the team was palpable.

“It is an understatement to say John and I are disappointed by the lack of success we have had on the field,” Tisch said.

There have been reports that Tisch pushed for a total reset this offseason. That’s what happened after two days of deliberation on Judge’s fate.

By no means are Chris Mara, Tim McDonnell or any other family members solely responsible for the state of the Giants. But with the team firing four coaches, replacing two general managers, wiping out most of their scouting department and flipping their roster multiple times over the past decade, a closer examination of all corners of the once-proud franchise is warranted.

“Their solution forever has been hire a new coach and he’ll solve all the ills, but they didn’t change anything else,” said a former member of the coaching staff. “They didn’t change their personnel department, they didn’t change how they do things, they didn’t change any of that stuff.

“If you want to make a real organizational change, you’ve got to change everybody. You’ve got to change the people who are in charge of the personnel. You’ve got to get new ideas in there.”

Simply changing the general manager and head coach may not be enough to fix a franchise that is tied with the Jets for the worst record in the NFL over the past five seasons. In discussions with current and former employees about the root of the Giants’ problems, poor communication and a lack of accountability were pervasive themes. “Dysfunctional at best,” was how one former coach described the organization’s process for personnel decisions.

“Legitimately two weeks on the job, not knowing what life was like working in the NFL, I’m like, ‘This place is ####### messed up,'” said a former staffer who worked for high-level college programs before joining the Giants. “There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”

Ownership has been resistant to overhauling its operations. There are four Lombardi Trophies in a case in the lobby of the team’s headquarters that validate its way of doing business; only the Patriots have more titles in the past 35 years. But the 100 losses in the past 10 seasons — only the Jets, Browns and Jaguars have more — suggest it’s time for changes.

“They still hold onto ’07, ’11, LT, Phil Simms — at some point you’ve got to say, ‘That was awesome. You’ll always have that,'” the former staffer said. “But you have to realize football has changed a lot even in the past couple of years.”

No one questions how much John Mara cares. The Giants and his family are his world. He openly wears the anguish of his team’s failures and self-flagellates during his annual news conferences after yet another losing season.

The question is how Mara and Tisch will lead the Giants out of this decade-long tailspin.

“I don’t think they really understand what they want other than wins,” a former coach said. “They want wins, but I don’t think they understand the importance of everything you do in the building. I don’t know that they had a vision, so I think everything’s been disjointed.”

That lack of vision made Judge such an appealing candidate in 2020. Despite having no head coaching experience, he had a plan for every facet of his program. But he couldn’t produce wins, so he became the third straight coach who was fired within two years.

There are early signs of encouragement with the general manager search because ownership hasn’t turned to familiar faces. Accorsi isn’t serving as a consultant and Abrams, who was being groomed to succeed Gettleman, didn’t even get an interview.

But it could be a long process to restore faith in the franchise. Tickets for this season’s finale were selling for just $6 on the secondary market, and some fans in the sparse crowd wore paper bags over their heads.

Former players were back for various events this season — Manning’s jersey retirement, defensive end Michael Strahan’s jersey retirement, the 10-year anniversary of Super Bowl 46 — as nostalgia was preferable to focusing on the current product. Mara didn’t speak during the two celebrations that followed Manning’s ceremony, but he was booed again when mentioned by Strahan. And much of the buzz for the 2011 team’s reunion was dulled by the Giants’ 28-3 halftime deficit to the Rams.

“I’ll still go to games and I’ll do appearances, but I can’t really watch. I get frustrated,” said former Pro Bowl guard Chris Snee. “I want to see this team do well so badly. It’s been very hard.”

Mara can take a measure of solace from the fact that the franchise was in worse shape in 1979. Young turned the Giants around by performing an organizational cleanse. Last summer, Mara spoke glowingly about how Young brought the Giants “up to date, not just with the acquisition of player talent but also the acquisition of coaching and scouting and personnel talent, as well.”

“We had been doing things a certain way for many, many years and had fallen behind the rest of the league,” Mara said, unaware that in a few months he would attempt a similar revival.
Click to expand...

 
Film Talk Football

@FilmTalkFB

Report: The #Giants are expected to fly out #Bills Joe Schoen, #Ravens Joe Hortiz, #Titans Monti Ossenfort, #Chiefs Ryan Poles, And #49ers Adam Peters for an in person meeting with Mara & Tisch

********

NYPost

Schoen, 42, was the first of nine candidates to interview with the Giants, all via Zoom. The second round will all be in-person interviews and Schoen’s is Tuesday morning.

 
kodycutter said:
Film Talk Football

@FilmTalkFB

Report: The #Giants are expected to fly out #Bills Joe Schoen, #Ravens Joe Hortiz, #Titans Monti Ossenfort, #Chiefs Ryan Poles, And #49ers Adam Peters for an in person meeting with Mara & Tisch

********

NYPost

Schoen, 42, was the first of nine candidates to interview with the Giants, all via Zoom. The second round will all be in-person interviews and Schoen’s is Tuesday morning.
Click to expand...
So they cut the field from 9 down to 5

 
Tom Pelissero
@TomPelissero
The #Giants are scheduled to conduct a second interview with #49ers assistant general manager Adam Peters for their GM job Thursday, per source.

Peters is the third known finalist in New York, joining Buffalo’s Joe Schoen and Kansas City’s Ryan Poles.

******************

Jordan Raanan

@JordanRaanan

The most encouraging thing to take from this Giants GM search: From what I've heard, they are offering carte blanche to candidates to reshape the organization. The Giants way of operating is about to change drastically no matter who is hired.

 
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I highly doubt the Giants' way of operating is going to change dramatically, as Raanan is saying.  The only way for that to happen is if Mara and the rest of his family step away from the day to day operations.  With so many family members employed by the team, including senior leadership like McDonnell and Chris Mara, unless they also leave their positions it's not really going to change (in addition to John Mara stepping away entirely).  That's not going to happen.  Mara is going to tell everyone things are changing, but I'll believe it when I see it and so far I haven't seen any family members step away from the business.  The only "change" is that they are finally open to hiring a GM who isn't part of their inner circle. 

 
Pat Leonard
@PLeonardNYDN

There are no more GM interviews on the schedule for the Giants at this time. So three finalists for now: Joe Schoen, Ryan Poles and Adam Peters, who is here in NJ today

Hopefully decision later tonight or tomorrow morning.

 
Ralph Vacchiano
✔
@RVacchianoSNY
The Giants are finalizing a deal to make Joe Schoen their new GM.

***********

edit: official

"It is an honor to accept the position of general manager of the New York Giants," said Schoen. "I want to thank John Mara and Steve Tisch and their families for this tremendous opportunity. And obviously I am grateful to Brandon and the Bills for the experience I have had in Buffalo.

"Now, the work begins. My immediate focus is to hire a head coach, with who I will work in lockstep with to create a collaborative environment for our football operations. We will cast a wide net, it can be former head coaches, first-time head coaches but, more importantly, it has to be a person who possesses the ability to lead an organization and the ability to motivate and develop players. On the personnel side, we will begin to evaluate our roster and prepare for the draft and free agency. Our goal is to build a roster that will be competitive, have depth, and most importantly, win football games."

 
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dhockster said:
Looks like it could be a really good hire. Giant fans could use a win.
Click to expand...
They went with someone with zero previous ties to the organization, this is a good 1st step if they are really serious about changing the “Giant way”

I'm guessing that Dabol is high on this guy's list of HC candidates

 
Yenrub said:
They went with someone with zero previous ties to the organization, this is a good 1st step if they are really serious about changing the “Giant way”

I'm guessing that Dabol is high on this guy's list of HC candidates
Click to expand...
Hear Flores and Daboll are the favorites 

 
NBCSportsEDGE take:
 

Giants hired former Bills assistant GM Joe Schoen as general manager. 

Schoen was always the frontrunner for the Giants general manager job as the organization tries to wash itself of the failed Gettleman-Judge regime. Schoen, 42, has helped create one of the league's best, most well-rounded rosters in Buffalo, and will now be tasked with revamping a Giants roster with some promise, including Daniel Jones, Saquon Barkley, Kadarius Toney, and Kenny Golladay. Next up will be the Giants' search for a head coach. Look for the team to pursue Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, though there's reportedly not a "package deal" in place alongside Schoen.
Click to expand...
ESPN's Adam Schefter reports the Giants have requested permission to interview former Dolphins head coach Brian Flores for the team's head coaching vacancy. 

Schefter added that Flores -- from Brooklyn -- would have something of a homecoming if hired by the Giants. The organization on Friday hired former Bills executive Joe Schoen as their general manager, and the team's head coaching search is now underway. Flores, whose firing from Miami was a stunner, is in contention for head coaching positions in Chicago, Houston, and now New York. The team's head coaching search will likely come down to Flores and Buffalo offensive coordinator Brian Daboll. 

- Adam Schefter
Click to expand...
Interesting that Dan Quinn is even in the convo.

 
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Dabol please. Quinn is good. head coaching experience. that SB loss to the Pats lies at Shanahan's feet, so many questionable calls up a bunch of points. the defense got winded because they were always out there. you see shades of Falcons' shanahan in the play calling in SF with the Niners . they nearly gave that dallas game away, up big early, faded the  entire 2nd half. mind-numbing stupid calls that nearly brought the house down.expect to see m0re of the same in GB. Quinn is a quality HC , so much better than Flores its not funny. or any of the other people being interviewed for HC jobs. 

 
Tanner9919 said:
Dabol please. Quinn is good. head coaching experience. that SB loss to the Pats lies at Shanahan's feet, so many questionable calls up a bunch of points. the defense got winded because they were always out there. you see shades of Falcons' shanahan in the play calling in SF with the Niners . they nearly gave that dallas game away, up big early, faded the  entire 2nd half. mind-numbing stupid calls that nearly brought the house down.expect to see m0re of the same in GB. Quinn is a quality HC , so much better than Flores its not funny. or any of the other people being interviewed for HC jobs. 
Click to expand...
It would be pretty risky to hire a coach without HC experience after what the Giants have been through with Judge and McAdoo

 
monk said:
It would be pretty risky to hire a coach without HC experience after what the Giants have been through with Judge and McAdoo
Click to expand...
Not disagreeing with you, but who are the previous NFL HC's you think would have a good chance of bringing the Giants a winning team based on their previous performance as head coach? Someone like a Reid or a Coughlin. I can't think of any that are out there right now. Zimmer? Not a very inspirational guy. Flores probably fits what you are looking for, although his success window is pretty small. But he has shown he can have winning teams, and keeping a team playing hard after starting out 1-7 says something. Flores also might help the Giants get Deshaun Watson, if they want to go that route.

 
dhockster said:
Not disagreeing with you, but who are the previous NFL HC's you think would have a good chance of bringing the Giants a winning team based on their previous performance as head coach? Someone like a Reid or a Coughlin. I can't think of any that are out there right now. Zimmer? Not a very inspirational guy. Flores probably fits what you are looking for, although his success window is pretty small. But he has shown he can have winning teams, and keeping a team playing hard after starting out 1-7 says something. Flores also might help the Giants get Deshaun Watson, if they want to go that route.
Click to expand...
  • Harbaugh - Took the 49ers to the SB - But that's not going to happen 
  • Dan Quinn - Took the Falcons to the SuperBowl in year 2 - This could happen
  • Doug Peterson - Won SB with Eagles against Pats - And he lives in  Jersey 
  • I like Flores but he had problems with previous GM and not sure if he can deal with NY media. Deshaun Watson would get killed by the media in New York ... That would be a disaster after giving up all that draft stock and giving up on Jones   
 
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I'm optimistic about this hire.  Parcells' comments certainly adds value to that.  If they get Daball, I would assume they have a good working relationship, which will be great.  They can better collaborate on who to draft and sign.  Also, especially for this year since they have salary cap issues, who to cut.

 
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