2022-23 NBA Thread: “you’ll never let me down like the Heat did”, Miami fan says to giant pile of cocaine (1 Viewer)

[msudaisy26]

Nobody is passing Lebron for best player of this era. It’s not even really debatable. 

Probably not, but if Curry had the year he just had for the next 3 or 4 years all with rings there would be a discussion. I think the same could be said about Durant especially if he adds another MVP or 2. 

 

[Navin Johnson]

That was a weird year for the cap when Durant went to GSW.  Durant went to Brooklyn  on a sign and trade for D. Russell. 

Durant was signing under cap space with the Nets.  It was only a sign and trade after GSW offered to take Russsel off their hands/clear cap space for other signings.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Probably not, but if Curry had the year he just had for the next 3 or 4 years all with rings there would be a discussion. I think the same could be said about Durant especially if he adds another MVP or 2. 

I'm one of the bigger Curry fans in here and he will never be in the same discussion as LBJ.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Yea, I confused the GSW with the BRK deal.

This argument seems silly anyway. Nearly every contender goes into the offseason over the cap. Teams rarely try and duck below enough to have max cap space. 

I agree with this part.  As a GSW fan, it really hamstrings the team in terms of FA signings unless you get a diamond in the rough (GP2), ring hunter, someone looking to up their value (Otto).  Sign and trades are bad long term as you have to give up assets that could otherwise be cost controlled in the short term.  I can't think of a contending team that got significantly better thru sign and trade, although I'm sure there is a case or two, in the past several years.

 

[Desert_Power]

Probably not, but if Curry had the year he just had for the next 3 or 4 years all with rings there would be a discussion. I think the same could be said about Durant especially if he adds another MVP or 2. 

Curry gets up to 7 or 8 rings like this example and the only company would by Robert Horry and the great Celtics dynasty before most of us were born. He would absolutely be in the conversation (should he be would depend on the level he played at). It's just such rare air.

 

[Desert_Power]

I know our Suns fans here are down on him, but I'm pretty surprised there hasn't been more movement for Ayton. Only 23 and he has been very productive in the league.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I know our Suns fans here are down on him, but I'm pretty surprised there hasn't been more movement for Ayton. Only 23 and he has been very productive in the league.

Part of that is because he's restricted.  Teams have been less likely to tie up their budget while they wait to see if offer sheets are matched the past couple years.

 

[msudaisy26]

Durant was signing under cap space with the Nets.  It was only a sign and trade after GSW offered to take Russsel off their hands/clear cap space for other signings.

So a sign and trade?

 

[Navin Johnson]

So a sign and trade?

The argument was that they were over the cap and he was able to be acquired because of a sign and trade which is not the case.  They were under the cap and were going to sign him with cap space.  

 

[Capella]

Probably not, but if Curry had the year he just had for the next 3 or 4 years all with rings there would be a discussion. I think the same could be said about Durant especially if he adds another MVP or 2. 

Nah 

I mean just looking at titles is too simplistic of an approach. Lebron is way way way ahead of both.  

 

[ShamrockPride]

Nobody is passing Lebron for best player of this era. It’s not even really debatable. 

Meh. Are they even if Steph ends up with 6?

 

[ShamrockPride]

Probably not, but if Curry had the year he just had for the next 3 or 4 years all with rings there would be a discussion. I think the same could be said about Durant especially if he adds another MVP or 2. 

This is craziness to me. A player needs 7-8 rings to be in a conversation with LeBron? The pumping up and defenses of this guy's on court legacy are getting ridiculous.

 

[msudaisy26]

Nah 

I mean just looking at titles is too simplistic of an approach. Lebron is way way way ahead of both.  

But it wouldnt be just that.  In a perfect world say he won another MVP to go along with this. 7 titles, 3 MVPs, call it 2 finals MVP and changed the game. He isn't only in the conversation for best of his era, but of all time. 

Although all this is highly unlikely. Right now it is Lebron big gap, Curry, small gap Durant. 

 

[msudaisy26]

The argument was that they were over the cap and he was able to be acquired because of a sign and trade which is not the case.  They were under the cap and were going to sign him with cap space.  

Actually it isn't. It started with Shamrock saying the Celtics would have a ton of money to spend after Horford's deal was up and then myself and others said it depended on how close they were to the hard cap and it would have to likely be sign and trades. You brought here. 

 

[Navin Johnson]

Actually it isn't. It started with Shamrock saying the Celtics would have a ton of money to spend after Horford's deal was up and then myself and others said it depended on how close they were to the hard cap and it would have to likely be sign and trades. You brought here. 

No, I responded that they were still over the cap when Horford expires.

Try and keep up with the conversation.

 

[Capella]

This is craziness to me. A player needs 7-8 rings to be in a conversation with LeBron? The pumping up and defenses of this guy's on court legacy are getting ridiculous.

Chris Webber, who is ranked 61st, is closer to Steph Curry in career PER than Steph is Lebron James. 

 

[msudaisy26]

This is craziness to me. A player needs 7-8 rings to be in a conversation with LeBron? The pumping up and defenses of this guy's on court legacy are getting ridiculous.

I think part of it is style of play. Lebron is so physically dominant and I can't think of anyone as physically gifted as LeBron to ever play in the NBA. That is hard to compete with especially a 6 foot 2ish point guard that looks like he is in slow motion when he dribble drives and can't dunk on anyone. 

 

[msudaisy26]

No, I responded that they were still over the cap when Horford expires.

Try and keep up with the conversation.

After we all responded. Take your own advice. 

 

[Navin Johnson]

Donnie?

They'll still be over the cap when Horford expires

Over the cap is irrelevant. Nearly zero contenders act as under the cap teams. Luxury threshold is the only number that matters. 

It matters when you are trying to sign free agents.

Well yes. But sign and trades are far more prevalent than straight up free agent signings. There are almost zero contenders making space below the cap to sign free agents outright. Thats just not how things are done these days

Disagree. Sign and trades are done more as cap filler when salaries don't match than to necessitate the signing of a free agent. 

Every year, there are only a couple teams that have max cap space available. And every year we see free agents go where they want to go, regardless of team's cap space. And they go there via sign and trades. They can be smaller deals, like Lonzo to CHI, or larger ones like Durant to GSW. But in both cases, the preferred method of building a championship roster is not to create max cap space and hope you can sign a superstar, but rather stay over the cap and make a trade.

Durant didn't go to GSW  in a sign and trade he was signed while GSW was operating under the cap, just as he later went to BKL who was operatiing under the cap.  Ball, otoh, while was acquired via sign and trade, was restricted, and had zero leverage unless NOP wasn't already planning on not matching a max offer sheet.

That was a weird year for the cap when Durant went to GSW.  Durant went to Brooklyn  on a sign and trade for D. Russell. 

Durant was signing under cap space with the Nets.  It was only a sign and trade after GSW offered to take Russsel off their hands/clear cap space for other signings.

So a sign and trade?

Actually it isn't. It started with Shamrock saying the Celtics would have a ton of money to spend after Horford's deal was up and then myself and others said it depended on how close they were to the hard cap and it would have to likely be sign and trades. You brought here. 

After we all responded. Take your own advice. 

 

[identikit]

Nufced?

 

[gruecd]

Lebron is so physically dominant and I can't think of anyone as physically gifted as LeBron to ever play in the NBA. 

Giannis would like a word.

 

[ShamrockPride]

Chris Webber, who is ranked 61st, is closer to Steph Curry on the career PER rankings than Steph is Lebron James. 

So you're a stats guy then, huh?

 

[ShamrockPride]

I think part of it is style of play. Lebron is so physically dominant and I can't think of anyone as physically gifted as LeBron to ever play in the NBA. That is hard to compete with especially a 6 foot 2ish point guard that looks like he is in slow motion when he dribble drives and can't dunk on anyone. 

Still an insane take to me that somebody gotta win twice as much as him to just even enter that convo. Especially when you've already acknowledged that he changed how the game is played today, probably even more so than LeBron in some regards.

 

[Yo Mama]

Dragic to the Bulls for 1 year $2.9 mil to the Bulls?  Thought he’d go to the Mavs once they lost Brunson. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

No major changes in the Bulls roster.

12 players remain from last year. Otherwise…

In: Drummond, Dragic, rookie Dalen Terry

Out: Tristan Thompson, Troy Brown, Matt Thomas

$1.5 million under luxury tax line

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I disagree, because every team in the league was trying to hand him the same deal. 

He shows bad form for many, many other reasons though. 

It doesn’t matter how many teams showed faith in him and were willing to part with millions of dollars, it is still a betrayal nonetheless. It’s not like the Nets did things against his will and put a crap team around him — they were the favorites!

 

[nysfl2]

Still an insane take to me that somebody gotta win twice as much as him to just even enter that convo. Especially when you've already acknowledged that he changed how the game is played today, probably even more so than LeBron in some regards.

The two Durant titles don't really count towards his 'best player of his era' ledger. Have to be the best player on your team first.

 

[Navin Johnson]

The two Durant titles don't really count towards his 'best player of his era' ledger. Have to be the best player on your team first.

He was the best player on both of those squads.

 

[ShamrockPride]

The two Durant titles don't really count towards his 'best player of his era' ledger. Have to be the best player on your team first.

Well, you can roll one of two way with that.

Yes, KD was the best player on those teams.

But (I believe) that's because Steph was willing to step to the side and let him be.

It's almost like we penalize a player's standing or discredit winning for their lack of an ego.

I'll say to that point, their first title...Iggy's FMVP, was earned by Iggy. He slowed Bron down enough to win, well deserved.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Chris Webber, who is ranked 61st, is closer to Steph Curry on the career PER rankings than Steph is Lebron James. 

This is actually all I need to see as evidence that PER is interesting but flawed

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Zion Williamson has signed his five-year extension. To me, the Pelicans have sufficient pieces to get to that 55+ win level right now. Trading for Durant would gut the team and tear apart the culture being built.

Sharing this back-and-forth from a local Pelicans board:

I think the Pelicans and Willie Green finished last season strong—but the majority of their success came when starting Herb Jones and after the McCollum trade.  They were under performing before that. With that said—I don’t disagree with you about them being a potentially 55 win team with a full season of healthy Zion. However—what I think lacks in that foresight is that it relies on a huge assumption that Zion will be healthy all season.   I’m glad the dude has brought his weight down—but this is after some major foot/leg issues. He’s still not a “lightweight” player and he still plays very explosively—which will test his body. If he gets hurt—as much as I like Ingram, McCollum, Jonas and Herb—that will be a first or second round exit.  You replace Ingram with Durant in that scenario—-and I think the Pelicans are still contenders to come out of the west even if Zion were to get hurt.  Also—it seems to me like KD has also had to deal with some pretty wild teammates.  He had Westbrook and Harden to deal with in OKC, then he was doing well in Golden State until the whole confrontation with Draymond, and then a combination of Kyrie and Harden again in Brooklyn.  I don’t see any of those types of potentially toxic personalities for him to deal with in New Orleans. 

 

[Capella]

So you're a stats guy then, huh?

Sure, to illustrate how far the gulf is. 

 

[Capella]

This is actually all I need to see as evidence that PER is interesting but flawed

Nothing is perfect but most front offices use it and it’s pretty commonly accepted as a tool to show player efficiency. 

 

[ShamrockPride]

Giannis would like a word.

Cappy to Lebron's rescue

Edit: now that I've reflected however...Gruecd would absolutely do the same if someone spoke questionably of Giannis. So whatever I guess. Everybody's a Stan for someone.

 

[Capella]

Cappy to Lebron's rescue

Edit: now that I've reflected however...Gruecd would absolutely do the same if someone spoke questionably of Giannis. So whatever I guess. Everybody's a Stan for someone.

I mean sure you can sit here and say oh you’re just a stan of this guy or you can come off using some lame washed old man Eminem term from 20 years ago and provide literally any statistical evidence yourself that suggests Curry is even close to as dominant as Lebron has been. 

 

[Capella]

This is actually all I need to see as evidence that PER is interesting but flawed

Career NBA win shares: 

2. Lebron James 249.52

…

50. Steph Curry 120.23

Would you like some more numbers to dismiss because it doesn’t fit your narrative?

 

[Capella]

Steph is only 4 away from Shawn Marion though so that’s nice. 

 

[Capella]

Please do not continue to make me seem like a Steph hater. I love Steph, he’s one of my favorite players in the league. But career-wise he’s not even close to Lebron and it’s laughable to suggest he is. 

 

[Frostillicus]

Nobody is passing Lebron for best player of this era. It’s not even really debatable. 

Agreed. Ant is just too young. 

 

[Frostillicus]

I love when this thread is dumb.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It doesn’t matter how many teams showed faith in him and were willing to part with millions of dollars, it is still a betrayal nonetheless. It’s not like the Nets did things against his will and put a crap team around him — they were the favorites!

Yes. Of course there was a line of teams willing to do it. Whichever team ultimately did it for him still showed a commitment to him and there should be at least a small sense of loyalty that comes with it. By no means is this the worst thing ever but I’m not sure how it doesn’t make Durant look weak - especially when he narrows his list down to two teams.

 

[Major]

Probably not, but if Curry had the year he just had for the next 3 or 4 years all with rings there would be a discussion. I think the same could be said about Durant especially if he adds another MVP or 2. 

Nah.  I'll always put an asterisk by those rings.  I really want to see him build something instead of latching onto another championship team.  Judging by his latest trade requests,  we'll never get that.  Great player but not the leader Lebron or Curry is.  

 

[AAABatteries]

I love when this thread is dumb.

I love it all the time too.

 

[Ghost Rider]

He was the best player on both of those squads.

I don't think he was (Curry's unselfishness was a big part of why Durant was able to take the lead and be the finals MVP twice, which is a massive credit to Steph), and Durant has never really been the best player in the league.  It was LeBron for like a decade, and once he stopped playing almost every game the last few years due to older age and injuries, it has been Giannis. 

 

[Desert_Power]

Hadn’t noticed Scottie Pippen Jr signed a two way with the Lakers. 

 

[Yo Mama]

Hadn’t noticed Scottie Pippen Jr signed a two way with the Lakers. 

Yeah, I thought he was mainly a scorer, but he’s been doing a good job as a distributor so far in the summer league. Lakers got two more nice 2-way guys in Pippen and Swider this year. 

 

[ShamrockPride]

I don't think he was (Curry's unselfishness was a big part of why Durant was able to take the lead and be the finals MVP twice, which is a massive credit to Steph), and Durant has never really been the best player in the league.  It was LeBron for like a decade, and once he stopped playing almost every game the last few years due to older age and injuries, it has been Giannis. 

How the NBA goes. It's a real interesting time period for the NBA right now. Almost has a 70s vibe to it without a clear face of the league megastar (yeah yeah Kareem. Kareem didn't win rings back then).

Magic/Bird > Jordan > Kobe > Bron > ???

Giannis is going to 28 halfway thru next season. There's no clear 20 year old heir apparent. Could have been Zion, but his body's not gonna hold up.

 

[ShamrockPride]

I mean sure you can sit here and say oh you’re just a stan of this guy or you can come off using some lame washed old man Eminem term from 20 years ago and provide literally any statistical evidence yourself that suggests Curry is even close to as dominant as Lebron has been. 

Don't get so triggered my guy. FTR, Stan is in the dictionary now. It's an actual word HTH   

I just said Bron isn't twice as good as Steph (ie needing 7-8 rings to be in that conversation), and I stand by that. Stats are only part of the story, and Steph is going to be closing that gap (however large you think it is) in the coming years.

 

[Capella]

Don't get so triggered my guy. FTR, Stan is in the dictionary now. It's an actual word HTH   

I just said Bron isn't twice as good as Steph (ie needing 7-8 rings to be in that conversation), and I stand by that. Stats are only part of the story, and Steph is going to be closing that gap (however large you think it is) in the coming years.

Lol nobody is being triggered by your extremely lazy argument that basically amounts to ‘what if Steph won the next 19 titles would he be as good as Lebron then?’

If you have anything to suggest Steph is even close to Lebron other than omg rings then please feel free to bring it up. 

 

[ShamrockPride]

Lol nobody is being triggered by your extremely lazy argument that basically amounts to ‘what if Steph won the next 19 titles would he be as good as Lebron then?’

If you have anything to suggest Steph is even close to Lebron other than omg rings then please feel free to bring it up. 

That wasn't my argument at all, you may read if you choose. But go off.