2023-24 NBA (Playoffs!) Thread: Message board poster furiously types out one more horrible post before thread closes (2 Viewers)

[Deamon]

Why

If what happened? The Celtics add either Drummond, Wright or Olynyk? Seems like an odd thing to be super upset about.

I know Kelly and coached him for his 8th grade season. I hate the Celtics. Don't want him going back there and being forced to cheer for them.

 

[the moops]

Why

If what happened? The Celtics add either Drummond, Wright or Olynyk? Seems like an odd thing to be super upset about.

I know Kelly and coached him for his 8th grade season. I hate the Celtics. Don't want him going back there and being forced to cheer for them.

You should be excited for him to get a chance to win a championship if he goes to Boston

 

[Yo Mama]

Olynyk is in the unique situation where his salary falls right below the level where second apron teams (and possibly first apron teams) can’t sign players if they get bought out. That would seem like the main way he lands on the Celtics.

 

[msudaisy26]

I would be furious if this happens.

Why?

When I clicked the link I was expecting to read that Lebron asked the Lakers to buy him out and they agreed and he was signing for the vet. minimum with the Celtics.

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

Embiid has a torn meniscus. What a faker ducking all these upcoming games. Must have torn it ducking too fast in Denver.

Yes, the ducker narrative has been debunked. Now we all know he is just made of glass.

 

[Mister CIA]

If I were the Spurs GM, I would try to deal for Trae Young. Maybe trade back the three picks ATL dealt for Dejounte, and throw in Zach Collins and Keldon Johnson to help with matching salaries. 20 lobs per game from Young to Wemby might grow old after few years, but there are worse possible outcomes.

 

[msudaisy26]

If I were the Spurs GM, I would try to deal for Trae Young. Maybe trade back the three picks ATL dealt for Dejounte, and throw in Zach Collins and Keldon Johnson to help with matching salaries. 20 lobs per game from Young to Wemby might grow old after few years, but there are worse possible outcomes.

So now you hate the Spurs. This is quite the 180 you have done this year.

 

[Desert_Power]

Brandon Miller is good at basketball

 

[Mister CIA]

If I were the Spurs GM, I would try to deal for Trae Young. Maybe trade back the three picks ATL dealt for Dejounte, and throw in Zach Collins and Keldon Johnson to help with matching salaries. 20 lobs per game from Young to Wemby might grow old after few years, but there are worse possible outcomes.

So now you hate the Spurs. This is quite the 180 you have done this year.

I'm kind of hating a lot of the talent I see surrounding Wemby.

 

[msudaisy26]

If I were the Spurs GM, I would try to deal for Trae Young. Maybe trade back the three picks ATL dealt for Dejounte, and throw in Zach Collins and Keldon Johnson to help with matching salaries. 20 lobs per game from Young to Wemby might grow old after few years, but there are worse possible outcomes.

So now you hate the Spurs. This is quite the 180 you have done this year.

I'm kind of hating a lot of the talent I see surrounding Wemby.

He doesn't even have a season in yet. Have some patience.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

The Trae Young hatred is entirely reasonable IMO. If you want to understand why, peruse the PG statistical rankings for last season.

There are five PGs who shot 8+ free throws a game: SGA, Luka, Lillard, Ja, and our friend Trae. Nobody else took more than 6 a game.

Can you guess where Trae ranks among his peers in the FT Frequent Flyers Club in field goal attempts and in every single shooting efficiency statistic? I bet you can!
And can you guess where he ranks among those peers in the turnover/game category? I bet you can guess that one too!

This season Lillard is shooting 42.5% from the field, and 37.1% from 3pt land
This season Young is shooting 43.5% from the field, and 38.4% from 3pt land.
This season Young has been a more efficient scorer than Lillard—even though Lillard has the luxury of playing alongside Giannis. You put Giannis on the Hawks—you would see Young even averaging more assists, and I would bet you that his efficiency goes up. Over the duration of Young’s career—opponents have been allowed to focus solely on stopping him.

The other players you mentioned all have had the luxury of having better teammates around them. SGA now has Holmgren, has had the luxury of another playmaker in Giddey , and previously to that had CP3. Luka has had the luxury of having at least 3 teammates throughout his career that are better than anybody that Young has had. Luka has played with Brunson (an all star caliber player), Porzingis (definitely in the conversation of all star), and Kyrie (a former all star and a dude that possibly has some of the best handles the game has ever seen). Ja was playing alongside Jaren jackson, Desmond Bane, Dillon Brooks…etc. Look at the best teammates that the players you mentioned have over the course of time: Giannis, Jalen Brunson, Porzingis, Kyrie Irving, a younger CP3, Chet Holmgren, a young Lemarcus Aldridge, Desmond Bane, Jaren Jackson Jr, prime CJ McCollum, Anfernee Simons.

At this point, the most talented teammate that Young has played with has been Dejounte Murray for a small fraction of his career. Murray would be in the bottom tier of that list of names that I just mentioned.

If you want to look at career numbers:
Lillard is 43.8% from the field, 34.7% from 3 point line

Trae for his career is
43.7% from the field, 35.6% from the 3 point line.

Even over the course of their careers—Young is at least a Lillard caliber player and has far more playmaking responsibility—but without the talent of teammates that Lillard has had.

 

[Jayrod]

Trae Young is a very talented playmaker, probably in the top 5-10 in the league. He also hasn't had a lot of help in Atlanta (although I'd rank Capela at his peak right there with Dejounte). He has also had some playoff success in getting Atlanta to advance beyond their seeding and expectations.

But he is also perceived to be a volume scorer, a very poor defender and seems like he may have attitude or locker room issues. I think he needs to be with either a very strong coach and good surrounding cast or be in a 1A/1B situation with another superstar to overcome those problems.

As a Celtics fan, playing Trae Young in the playoffs makes me nervous. There is a short list of names that I would say that about and he's one of them. He has the ability to almost single handedly win a couple of games in a series and that is worth a lot in the NBA.

 

[TobiasFunke]

The Trae Young hatred is entirely reasonable IMO. If you want to understand why, peruse the PG statistical rankings for last season.

There are five PGs who shot 8+ free throws a game: SGA, Luka, Lillard, Ja, and our friend Trae. Nobody else took more than 6 a game.

Can you guess where Trae ranks among his peers in the FT Frequent Flyers Club in field goal attempts and in every single shooting efficiency statistic? I bet you can!
And can you guess where he ranks among those peers in the turnover/game category? I bet you can guess that one too!

This season Lillard is shooting 42.5% from the field, and 37.1% from 3pt land
This season Young is shooting 43.5% from the field, and 38.4% from 3pt land.
This season Young has been a more efficient scorer than Lillard—even though Lillard has the luxury of playing alongside Giannis. You put Giannis on the Hawks—you would see Young even averaging more assists, and I would bet you that his efficiency goes up. Over the duration of Young’s career—opponents have been allowed to focus solely on stopping him.

The other players you mentioned all have had the luxury of having better teammates around them. SGA now has Holmgren, has had the luxury of another playmaker in Giddey , and previously to that had CP3. Luka has had the luxury of having at least 3 teammates throughout his career that are better than anybody that Young has had. Luka has played with Brunson (an all star caliber player), Porzingis (definitely in the conversation of all star), and Kyrie (a former all star and a dude that possibly has some of the best handles the game has ever seen). Ja was playing alongside Jaren jackson, Desmond Bane, Dillon Brooks…etc. Look at the best teammates that the players you mentioned have over the course of time: Giannis, Jalen Brunson, Porzingis, Kyrie Irving, a younger CP3, Chet Holmgren, a young Lemarcus Aldridge, Desmond Bane, Jaren Jackson Jr, prime CJ McCollum, Anfernee Simons.

At this point, the most talented teammate that Young has played with has been Dejounte Murray for a small fraction of his career. Murray would be in the bottom tier of that list of names that I just mentioned.

If you want to look at career numbers:
Lillard is 43.8% from the field, 34.7% from 3 point line

Trae for his career is
43.7% from the field, 35.6% from the 3 point line.

Even over the course of their careers—Young is at least a Lillard caliber player and has far more playmaking responsibility—but without the talent of teammates that Lillard has had.

A good way to evaluate a player is to see how much cherry-picking the fans defending the player have to do.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

The Trae Young hatred is entirely reasonable IMO. If you want to understand why, peruse the PG statistical rankings for last season.

There are five PGs who shot 8+ free throws a game: SGA, Luka, Lillard, Ja, and our friend Trae. Nobody else took more than 6 a game.

Can you guess where Trae ranks among his peers in the FT Frequent Flyers Club in field goal attempts and in every single shooting efficiency statistic? I bet you can!
And can you guess where he ranks among those peers in the turnover/game category? I bet you can guess that one too!

This season Lillard is shooting 42.5% from the field, and 37.1% from 3pt land
This season Young is shooting 43.5% from the field, and 38.4% from 3pt land.
This season Young has been a more efficient scorer than Lillard—even though Lillard has the luxury of playing alongside Giannis. You put Giannis on the Hawks—you would see Young even averaging more assists, and I would bet you that his efficiency goes up. Over the duration of Young’s career—opponents have been allowed to focus solely on stopping him.

The other players you mentioned all have had the luxury of having better teammates around them. SGA now has Holmgren, has had the luxury of another playmaker in Giddey , and previously to that had CP3. Luka has had the luxury of having at least 3 teammates throughout his career that are better than anybody that Young has had. Luka has played with Brunson (an all star caliber player), Porzingis (definitely in the conversation of all star), and Kyrie (a former all star and a dude that possibly has some of the best handles the game has ever seen). Ja was playing alongside Jaren jackson, Desmond Bane, Dillon Brooks…etc. Look at the best teammates that the players you mentioned have over the course of time: Giannis, Jalen Brunson, Porzingis, Kyrie Irving, a younger CP3, Chet Holmgren, a young Lemarcus Aldridge, Desmond Bane, Jaren Jackson Jr, prime CJ McCollum, Anfernee Simons.

At this point, the most talented teammate that Young has played with has been Dejounte Murray for a small fraction of his career. Murray would be in the bottom tier of that list of names that I just mentioned.

If you want to look at career numbers:
Lillard is 43.8% from the field, 34.7% from 3 point line

Trae for his career is
43.7% from the field, 35.6% from the 3 point line.

Even over the course of their careers—Young is at least a Lillard caliber player and has far more playmaking responsibility—but without the talent of teammates that Lillard has had.

A good way to evaluate a player is to see how much cherry-picking the fans defending the player have to do.

What did I cherry pick? I’m a fan of all of the players that you mentioned. I‘m such a big fan of Shai that I started collecting his basketball cards when the Clippers drafted him and I root for the dude every day. I’d argue that the best way to spot a hater is when people refuse to accept a valid counterpoint and react with snark. Trae’s numbers historically are as good—if not better than Lillard— he’s done so with inferior teammates—and one of the dudes is praised as being elite—-and the other is labeled over rated?

There is nothing wrong with hating a really good player. However, hating a really good player is different than trying to call a player trash solely because you don’t like him. I see this dynamic all of the time with Trae, I see it all of the time with Lebron, I saw it all of the time with Kobe..etc. Trae is averaging 27 points, is leading the league in total assists even though he’s playing with mediocre talent, is top 10 in the league in steals, is shooting better than Lillard this year—but he’s trash and he’s overrated? If Trae is overrated—this would mean that Lillard is even more over rated.

 

[gruecd]

If the Bucks trade for Grant Williams, I swear to God that I'm giving up my season tickets...

He's literally the LAST guy that I'd want on my team.

 

[Softballguy]

If the Bucks trade for Grant Williams, I swear to God that I'm giving up my season tickets...

He's literally the LAST guy that I'd want on my team.

Doc Rivers was just about the last guy I wanted to coach the team. And now all this Grant Williams talk. All we would need then is to trade for Marcus Smart and my nightmare season would be complete.

 

[TobiasFunke]

The Trae Young hatred is entirely reasonable IMO. If you want to understand why, peruse the PG statistical rankings for last season.

There are five PGs who shot 8+ free throws a game: SGA, Luka, Lillard, Ja, and our friend Trae. Nobody else took more than 6 a game.

Can you guess where Trae ranks among his peers in the FT Frequent Flyers Club in field goal attempts and in every single shooting efficiency statistic? I bet you can!
And can you guess where he ranks among those peers in the turnover/game category? I bet you can guess that one too!

This season Lillard is shooting 42.5% from the field, and 37.1% from 3pt land
This season Young is shooting 43.5% from the field, and 38.4% from 3pt land.
This season Young has been a more efficient scorer than Lillard—even though Lillard has the luxury of playing alongside Giannis. You put Giannis on the Hawks—you would see Young even averaging more assists, and I would bet you that his efficiency goes up. Over the duration of Young’s career—opponents have been allowed to focus solely on stopping him.

The other players you mentioned all have had the luxury of having better teammates around them. SGA now has Holmgren, has had the luxury of another playmaker in Giddey , and previously to that had CP3. Luka has had the luxury of having at least 3 teammates throughout his career that are better than anybody that Young has had. Luka has played with Brunson (an all star caliber player), Porzingis (definitely in the conversation of all star), and Kyrie (a former all star and a dude that possibly has some of the best handles the game has ever seen). Ja was playing alongside Jaren jackson, Desmond Bane, Dillon Brooks…etc. Look at the best teammates that the players you mentioned have over the course of time: Giannis, Jalen Brunson, Porzingis, Kyrie Irving, a younger CP3, Chet Holmgren, a young Lemarcus Aldridge, Desmond Bane, Jaren Jackson Jr, prime CJ McCollum, Anfernee Simons.

At this point, the most talented teammate that Young has played with has been Dejounte Murray for a small fraction of his career. Murray would be in the bottom tier of that list of names that I just mentioned.

If you want to look at career numbers:
Lillard is 43.8% from the field, 34.7% from 3 point line

Trae for his career is
43.7% from the field, 35.6% from the 3 point line.

Even over the course of their careers—Young is at least a Lillard caliber player and has far more playmaking responsibility—but without the talent of teammates that Lillard has had.

A good way to evaluate a player is to see how much cherry-picking the fans defending the player have to do.

What did I cherry pick? I’m a fan of all of the players that you mentioned. I‘m such a big fan of Shai that I started collecting his basketball cards when the Clippers drafted him and I root for the dude every day. I’d argue that the best way to spot a hater is when people refuse to accept a valid counterpoint and react with snark. Trae’s numbers historically are as good—if not better than Lillard— he’s done so with inferior teammates—and one of the dudes is praised as being elite—-and the other is labeled over rated?

There is nothing wrong with hating a really good player. However, hating a really good player is different than trying to call a player trash solely because you don’t like him. I see this dynamic all of the time with Trae, I see it all of the time with Lebron, I saw it all of the time with Kobe..etc. Trae is averaging 27 points, is leading the league in total assists even though he’s playing with mediocre talent, is top 10 in the league in steals, is shooting better than Lillard this year—but he’s trash and he’s overrated? If Trae is overrated—this would mean that Lillard is even more over rated.

You picked the guy who was clearly the least efficient shooter of the group, and then cherry-picked their complementary players during the comparison.

But I should clarify- when I said the Trae Young hate was valid, I wasn't saying that he sucks. I was actually talking about the hatred because he goes to the FT line so much and fans (very reasonably) hate both flopping and offensive players who habitually seek out contact and fouls. That's why the first part of the comparison was other dudes with 8+ FTs/game. My point wasn't that he sucks or is overrated, but that his style of play is off-putting. FTs are boring, and watching guys try to make baskets is more fun than watching them try to absorb contact. Those other dudes by and large shoot more than Trae and are efficient enough to somewhat justify those extra trips.

 

[Anarchy99]

I get that the All-Star rosters are not picked from VORP rankings, but here's how valuable each guy has been so far this season:

EAST

C: Embiid - 4.1, Allen - 1.9, Porzingas - 1.8, Horford - 1.5, Adebayo - 1.3, Hartenstein - 1.3, Claxton - 1.2, Lopez - 1.2, Bidatze - 1.0, MWagner - 0.9
PF: Giannis - 4.5, Tatum - 3.0, Butler - 1.8, Siakem - 1.6, Randle - 1.5, Banchero - 1.4, Harris - 1.3, Love - 1.0, CJohnson - 0.8, Mobley - 0.8
SF: DeRozan - 1.4, FWagner - 1.3, JBrown - 1.1, JJohnson - 0.9, Bridges - 0.8, Middleton - 0.8, Nesmith - 0.8, Anunoby - 0.7, Hauser - 0.7, Hield - 0.7
SG: Mitchell - 3.2, Barnes - 2.6, DWhite - 2.1, DiVincenzo - 1.9, Caruso - 1.2, Quickley - 1.0, Rozier - 1.0, Murray - 1.0, Bogdonovic - 0.9, LeVert - 0.6
PG: Haliburton - 3.4, Brunson - 3.0, Maxey - 2.2, Young - 2.2, McCollum - 1.8, Lillard - 1.7, Holiday - 1.3, Ball - 0.9, CWhite - 0.9

WEST

C: Jokic - 6.9, Sabonis - 3.5, Davis - 3.1, Sengun - 2.8, Holmgren - 2.3, Gobert - 1.6, Wembanyama - 1.5, Valanciunas - 1.4, Olynyk - 1.2, Reid - 1.0
PF: KD - 3.2, LBJ - 3.1, Markkanen - 2.3, KAT - 2.0, George - 1.8, Zion - 1.7, JWilliams - 1.4, Gordon - 0.9, KAnderson - 0.8, Grant - 0.8
SF: Kawhi - 3.4, Ingram - 1.5, HJones - 0.8, Thybulle - 0.6, Porter - 0.5, AThompson - 0.4, Whitmore - 0.4, Konchar - 0.3, Murphy - 0.3, KMurray - 0.3
SG: Edwards - 2.1, Bane - 1.8, Kyrie - 1.8, Sexton - 1.3, GAllen - 1.0, Monk - 0.9, Giddey - 0.8, Reaves - 0.8, Joe - 0.7, Simons - 0.7
PG: SGA - 5.3, Doncic - 4.5, Curry - 2.7, Harden - 2.7, VanVleet - 2.3, Booker - 1.9, Murray - 1.8, Conley - 1.7, Fox - 1.5, Brogdon - 1.1

Off of that, the biggest snubs in the East were Barnes (2.6), Young (2.2), and DWhite (2.1). In the West, Sabonis (3.5), Sengun (2.8), Harden (2.7), Holmgren (2.3), Markennan (2.3), and VanVleet (2.3). Those were all the players with scores of 2.0 or better that didn't make the team (although someone might be picked as a fill-in for a guy that's injured).

 

[the moops]

EPM

Embiid 10.1, Porzingis 4.4, Hartenstein 3.7, Allen 2.8, Bitazde 2.8, Turner 2.3, Mobley 2.1 Bam 1.4
Giannis 7.6, Tatum 4.4, Butler 3.3, Jaylen 3.3, Franz 3.2, OG 3.0,Siakam 2.9, Barnes 2.5, Randle 2.1, Banchero 1.2
Halliburton 6.5, Mitchell 6.4, Brunson 4.8, White 4.3, Lillard 4.2, Maxey 4.0, Trae 3.7, LaMelo 2.9, Caruso 2.7

Jokic 7.0, AD 4.3, Wemby 3.8, Chet 3.5, Sengun 3.1, Sabonis 2.9, KAT 2.6, Gobert 2.2
Kawhi 6.4, Durant 5.2, PG 5.2, Lebron 5.1, Markkanen 4.6, Jalen Williams 3.7, Bane 3.1, Ingram 2.8
SGA 9.8, Luka 6.6, Booker 5.2, Harden 4.6, Steph 4.5, Kyrie 3.9, Ant 3.9, Fox 3.5, Conley 3.2, VanVleet 3.1, Murray 2.8

 

[Spartans Rule]

Some Trae vs. Lillard notes:

• Any comparison of career efficiency should account for the fact that there's been an unprecedented leaguewide offensive explosion since Young arrived. Dame has a career 106 TS%+ to Trae's 102. In TS% since Trae entered the league, Lillard leads .611 to .582.
• Trae has more playmaking responsibility, but he doesn't always use it for good. He averages 4 more assists per 100 possessions than Lillard, but also 2 more turnovers. That kinda evens out.
• Lillard is +7.8 on/off for his career vs. Trae's +3.0. On/off numbers have their flaws, but in theory if Trae is being held back by poor teammates, he should do really well in that stat.

The failure of the Young/Murray pairing is interesting. I know it's not a perfect match, but they haven't synergized at all. Playing with another PG, you'd think Trae could be really dangerous moving off the ball and getting 3-point looks like Curry, but that hasn't happened. He still just dominates the ball while Murray's game suffers. And then they're 28th in the league in DRating despite having Capela, Murray and some versatile wings.

Trae's a really interesting and skilled player but it kinda feels like he's just gonna put up gaudy stats on 45-win teams for the rest of his career. I don't know how you build a serious contender around a guy who doesn't add value off the ball or on defense.

 

[the moops]

I don't know how you build a serious contender around a guy who doesn't add value off the ball or on defense.

You pair that point guard with Giannis, that's how

 

[Major]

The Trae Young hatred is entirely reasonable IMO. If you want to understand why, peruse the PG statistical rankings for last season.

There are five PGs who shot 8+ free throws a game: SGA, Luka, Lillard, Ja, and our friend Trae. Nobody else took more than 6 a game.

Can you guess where Trae ranks among his peers in the FT Frequent Flyers Club in field goal attempts and in every single shooting efficiency statistic? I bet you can!
And can you guess where he ranks among those peers in the turnover/game category? I bet you can guess that one too!

This season Lillard is shooting 42.5% from the field, and 37.1% from 3pt land
This season Young is shooting 43.5% from the field, and 38.4% from 3pt land.
This season Young has been a more efficient scorer than Lillard—even though Lillard has the luxury of playing alongside Giannis. You put Giannis on the Hawks—you would see Young even averaging more assists, and I would bet you that his efficiency goes up. Over the duration of Young’s career—opponents have been allowed to focus solely on stopping him.

The other players you mentioned all have had the luxury of having better teammates around them. SGA now has Holmgren, has had the luxury of another playmaker in Giddey , and previously to that had CP3. Luka has had the luxury of having at least 3 teammates throughout his career that are better than anybody that Young has had. Luka has played with Brunson (an all star caliber player), Porzingis (definitely in the conversation of all star), and Kyrie (a former all star and a dude that possibly has some of the best handles the game has ever seen). Ja was playing alongside Jaren jackson, Desmond Bane, Dillon Brooks…etc. Look at the best teammates that the players you mentioned have over the course of time: Giannis, Jalen Brunson, Porzingis, Kyrie Irving, a younger CP3, Chet Holmgren, a young Lemarcus Aldridge, Desmond Bane, Jaren Jackson Jr, prime CJ McCollum, Anfernee Simons.

At this point, the most talented teammate that Young has played with has been Dejounte Murray for a small fraction of his career. Murray would be in the bottom tier of that list of names that I just mentioned.

If you want to look at career numbers:
Lillard is 43.8% from the field, 34.7% from 3 point line

Trae for his career is
43.7% from the field, 35.6% from the 3 point line.

Even over the course of their careers—Young is at least a Lillard caliber player and has far more playmaking responsibility—but without the talent of teammates that Lillard has had.

A good way to evaluate a player is to see how much cherry-picking the fans defending the player have to do.

What did I cherry pick? I’m a fan of all of the players that you mentioned. I‘m such a big fan of Shai that I started collecting his basketball cards when the Clippers drafted him and I root for the dude every day. I’d argue that the best way to spot a hater is when people refuse to accept a valid counterpoint and react with snark. Trae’s numbers historically are as good—if not better than Lillard— he’s done so with inferior teammates—and one of the dudes is praised as being elite—-and the other is labeled over rated?

There is nothing wrong with hating a really good player. However, hating a really good player is different than trying to call a player trash solely because you don’t like him. I see this dynamic all of the time with Trae, I see it all of the time with Lebron, I saw it all of the time with Kobe..etc. Trae is averaging 27 points, is leading the league in total assists even though he’s playing with mediocre talent, is top 10 in the league in steals, is shooting better than Lillard this year—but he’s trash and he’s overrated? If Trae is overrated—this would mean that Lillard is even more over rated.

I love watching Trae and get the lack of defense critiques but that's a lot of NBA guards in the current NBA. There must me something more why he's been getting blackballed. Not making the USA World Cup roster was more than just a snub. Seems like a nice guy and no real character issues. Curious what it is.

 

[Major]

If the Bucks trade for Grant Williams, I swear to God that I'm giving up my season tickets...

He's literally the LAST guy that I'd want on my team.

Doc Rivers was just about the last guy I wanted to coach the team. And now all this Grant Williams talk. All we would need then is to trade for Marcus Smart and my nightmare season would be complete.

It is funny how the Bucks were considered one of the best teams in the East and a worthy challenger to Boston before the Doc hire. Now it's just assumed they're out in the 1st or 2nd round

 

[Instinctive]

If the Bucks trade for Grant Williams, I swear to God that I'm giving up my season tickets...

He's literally the LAST guy that I'd want on my team.

But he's been so great for Dallas, right? You know you'd love to offload Portis for him...

 

[msudaisy26]

If the Bucks trade for Grant Williams, I swear to God that I'm giving up my season tickets...

He's literally the LAST guy that I'd want on my team.

You cheered for Grayson Allen, permission denied.

 

[thecatch]

The Trae Young hatred is entirely reasonable IMO. If you want to understand why, peruse the PG statistical rankings for last season.

There are five PGs who shot 8+ free throws a game: SGA, Luka, Lillard, Ja, and our friend Trae. Nobody else took more than 6 a game.

Can you guess where Trae ranks among his peers in the FT Frequent Flyers Club in field goal attempts and in every single shooting efficiency statistic? I bet you can!
And can you guess where he ranks among those peers in the turnover/game category? I bet you can guess that one too!

This season Lillard is shooting 42.5% from the field, and 37.1% from 3pt land
This season Young is shooting 43.5% from the field, and 38.4% from 3pt land.
This season Young has been a more efficient scorer than Lillard—even though Lillard has the luxury of playing alongside Giannis. You put Giannis on the Hawks—you would see Young even averaging more assists, and I would bet you that his efficiency goes up. Over the duration of Young’s career—opponents have been allowed to focus solely on stopping him.

The other players you mentioned all have had the luxury of having better teammates around them. SGA now has Holmgren, has had the luxury of another playmaker in Giddey , and previously to that had CP3. Luka has had the luxury of having at least 3 teammates throughout his career that are better than anybody that Young has had. Luka has played with Brunson (an all star caliber player), Porzingis (definitely in the conversation of all star), and Kyrie (a former all star and a dude that possibly has some of the best handles the game has ever seen). Ja was playing alongside Jaren jackson, Desmond Bane, Dillon Brooks…etc. Look at the best teammates that the players you mentioned have over the course of time: Giannis, Jalen Brunson, Porzingis, Kyrie Irving, a younger CP3, Chet Holmgren, a young Lemarcus Aldridge, Desmond Bane, Jaren Jackson Jr, prime CJ McCollum, Anfernee Simons.

At this point, the most talented teammate that Young has played with has been Dejounte Murray for a small fraction of his career. Murray would be in the bottom tier of that list of names that I just mentioned.

If you want to look at career numbers:
Lillard is 43.8% from the field, 34.7% from 3 point line

Trae for his career is
43.7% from the field, 35.6% from the 3 point line.

Even over the course of their careers—Young is at least a Lillard caliber player and has far more playmaking responsibility—but without the talent of teammates that Lillard has had.

A good way to evaluate a player is to see how much cherry-picking the fans defending the player have to do.

What did I cherry pick? I’m a fan of all of the players that you mentioned. I‘m such a big fan of Shai that I started collecting his basketball cards when the Clippers drafted him and I root for the dude every day. I’d argue that the best way to spot a hater is when people refuse to accept a valid counterpoint and react with snark. Trae’s numbers historically are as good—if not better than Lillard— he’s done so with inferior teammates—and one of the dudes is praised as being elite—-and the other is labeled over rated?

There is nothing wrong with hating a really good player. However, hating a really good player is different than trying to call a player trash solely because you don’t like him. I see this dynamic all of the time with Trae, I see it all of the time with Lebron, I saw it all of the time with Kobe..etc. Trae is averaging 27 points, is leading the league in total assists even though he’s playing with mediocre talent, is top 10 in the league in steals, is shooting better than Lillard this year—but he’s trash and he’s overrated? If Trae is overrated—this would mean that Lillard is even more over rated.

I love watching Trae and get the lack of defense critiques but that's a lot of NBA guards in the current NBA. There must me something more why he's been getting blackballed. Not making the USA World Cup roster was more than just a snub. Seems like a nice guy and no real character issues. Curious what it is.

The defensive critiques that apply to Trae don't apply in anywhere near the same force to just about anybody in his perceived peer group among top guards.

 

[Dan Lambskin]

The thread title

 

[Encyclopedia Brown]

Luka rocking a full facemask for some reason.

 

[Moe.]

The Trae Young hatred is entirely reasonable IMO. If you want to understand why, peruse the PG statistical rankings for last season.

There are five PGs who shot 8+ free throws a game: SGA, Luka, Lillard, Ja, and our friend Trae. Nobody else took more than 6 a game.

Can you guess where Trae ranks among his peers in the FT Frequent Flyers Club in field goal attempts and in every single shooting efficiency statistic? I bet you can!
And can you guess where he ranks among those peers in the turnover/game category? I bet you can guess that one too!

This season Lillard is shooting 42.5% from the field, and 37.1% from 3pt land
This season Young is shooting 43.5% from the field, and 38.4% from 3pt land.
This season Young has been a more efficient scorer than Lillard—even though Lillard has the luxury of playing alongside Giannis. You put Giannis on the Hawks—you would see Young even averaging more assists, and I would bet you that his efficiency goes up. Over the duration of Young’s career—opponents have been allowed to focus solely on stopping him.

The other players you mentioned all have had the luxury of having better teammates around them. SGA now has Holmgren, has had the luxury of another playmaker in Giddey , and previously to that had CP3. Luka has had the luxury of having at least 3 teammates throughout his career that are better than anybody that Young has had. Luka has played with Brunson (an all star caliber player), Porzingis (definitely in the conversation of all star), and Kyrie (a former all star and a dude that possibly has some of the best handles the game has ever seen). Ja was playing alongside Jaren jackson, Desmond Bane, Dillon Brooks…etc. Look at the best teammates that the players you mentioned have over the course of time: Giannis, Jalen Brunson, Porzingis, Kyrie Irving, a younger CP3, Chet Holmgren, a young Lemarcus Aldridge, Desmond Bane, Jaren Jackson Jr, prime CJ McCollum, Anfernee Simons.

At this point, the most talented teammate that Young has played with has been Dejounte Murray for a small fraction of his career. Murray would be in the bottom tier of that list of names that I just mentioned.

If you want to look at career numbers:
Lillard is 43.8% from the field, 34.7% from 3 point line

Trae for his career is
43.7% from the field, 35.6% from the 3 point line.

Even over the course of their careers—Young is at least a Lillard caliber player and has far more playmaking responsibility—but without the talent of teammates that Lillard has had.

A good way to evaluate a player is to see how much cherry-picking the fans defending the player have to do.

What did I cherry pick? I’m a fan of all of the players that you mentioned. I‘m such a big fan of Shai that I started collecting his basketball cards when the Clippers drafted him and I root for the dude every day. I’d argue that the best way to spot a hater is when people refuse to accept a valid counterpoint and react with snark. Trae’s numbers historically are as good—if not better than Lillard— he’s done so with inferior teammates—and one of the dudes is praised as being elite—-and the other is labeled over rated?

There is nothing wrong with hating a really good player. However, hating a really good player is different than trying to call a player trash solely because you don’t like him. I see this dynamic all of the time with Trae, I see it all of the time with Lebron, I saw it all of the time with Kobe..etc. Trae is averaging 27 points, is leading the league in total assists even though he’s playing with mediocre talent, is top 10 in the league in steals, is shooting better than Lillard this year—but he’s trash and he’s overrated? If Trae is overrated—this would mean that Lillard is even more over rated.

I love watching Trae and get the lack of defense critiques but that's a lot of NBA guards in the current NBA. There must me something more why he's been getting blackballed. Not making the USA World Cup roster was more than just a snub. Seems like a nice guy and no real character issues. Curious what it is.

It’s a combination of his hair and the audacity of some of the distance shots. Even in college opposing fans seemed to really really hate him at a level usually reserved for the Grayson Allen types.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Luka rocking a full facemask for some reason.

He has a nasal fracture, I believe

 

[General Malaise]

Luka rocking a full facemask for some reason.

He has a nasal fracture, I believe

Eating through his nose I see.....

 

[Instinctive]

Luka rocking a full facemask for some reason.

He has a nasal fracture, I believe

Eating through his nose I see.....

I think Maxi broke his nose too.

Dallas has been hurt so many ways for so many guys so many times this year. Absolutely brutal.

Great piece on the Ringer about the Mavs today

 

[gruecd]

If the Bucks trade for Grant Williams, I swear to God that I'm giving up my season tickets...

He's literally the LAST guy that I'd want on my team.

But he's been so great for Dallas, right? You know you'd love to offload Portis for him...

 

[gruecd]

If the Bucks trade for Grant Williams, I swear to God that I'm giving up my season tickets...

He's literally the LAST guy that I'd want on my team.

You cheered for Grayson Allen, permission denied.

I should've known I was making a deal with the devil...

 

[Major]

The Trae Young hatred is entirely reasonable IMO. If you want to understand why, peruse the PG statistical rankings for last season.

There are five PGs who shot 8+ free throws a game: SGA, Luka, Lillard, Ja, and our friend Trae. Nobody else took more than 6 a game.

Can you guess where Trae ranks among his peers in the FT Frequent Flyers Club in field goal attempts and in every single shooting efficiency statistic? I bet you can!
And can you guess where he ranks among those peers in the turnover/game category? I bet you can guess that one too!

This season Lillard is shooting 42.5% from the field, and 37.1% from 3pt land
This season Young is shooting 43.5% from the field, and 38.4% from 3pt land.
This season Young has been a more efficient scorer than Lillard—even though Lillard has the luxury of playing alongside Giannis. You put Giannis on the Hawks—you would see Young even averaging more assists, and I would bet you that his efficiency goes up. Over the duration of Young’s career—opponents have been allowed to focus solely on stopping him.

The other players you mentioned all have had the luxury of having better teammates around them. SGA now has Holmgren, has had the luxury of another playmaker in Giddey , and previously to that had CP3. Luka has had the luxury of having at least 3 teammates throughout his career that are better than anybody that Young has had. Luka has played with Brunson (an all star caliber player), Porzingis (definitely in the conversation of all star), and Kyrie (a former all star and a dude that possibly has some of the best handles the game has ever seen). Ja was playing alongside Jaren jackson, Desmond Bane, Dillon Brooks…etc. Look at the best teammates that the players you mentioned have over the course of time: Giannis, Jalen Brunson, Porzingis, Kyrie Irving, a younger CP3, Chet Holmgren, a young Lemarcus Aldridge, Desmond Bane, Jaren Jackson Jr, prime CJ McCollum, Anfernee Simons.

At this point, the most talented teammate that Young has played with has been Dejounte Murray for a small fraction of his career. Murray would be in the bottom tier of that list of names that I just mentioned.

If you want to look at career numbers:
Lillard is 43.8% from the field, 34.7% from 3 point line

Trae for his career is
43.7% from the field, 35.6% from the 3 point line.

Even over the course of their careers—Young is at least a Lillard caliber player and has far more playmaking responsibility—but without the talent of teammates that Lillard has had.

A good way to evaluate a player is to see how much cherry-picking the fans defending the player have to do.

What did I cherry pick? I’m a fan of all of the players that you mentioned. I‘m such a big fan of Shai that I started collecting his basketball cards when the Clippers drafted him and I root for the dude every day. I’d argue that the best way to spot a hater is when people refuse to accept a valid counterpoint and react with snark. Trae’s numbers historically are as good—if not better than Lillard— he’s done so with inferior teammates—and one of the dudes is praised as being elite—-and the other is labeled over rated?

There is nothing wrong with hating a really good player. However, hating a really good player is different than trying to call a player trash solely because you don’t like him. I see this dynamic all of the time with Trae, I see it all of the time with Lebron, I saw it all of the time with Kobe..etc. Trae is averaging 27 points, is leading the league in total assists even though he’s playing with mediocre talent, is top 10 in the league in steals, is shooting better than Lillard this year—but he’s trash and he’s overrated? If Trae is overrated—this would mean that Lillard is even more over rated.

I love watching Trae and get the lack of defense critiques but that's a lot of NBA guards in the current NBA. There must me something more why he's been getting blackballed. Not making the USA World Cup roster was more than just a snub. Seems like a nice guy and no real character issues. Curious what it is.

The defensive critiques that apply to Trae don't apply in anywhere near the same force to just about anybody in his perceived peer group among top guards.

Harden esque? I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a Hawks game outside of the great playoff run they made a few years ago. I think I have that version of Trae implanted in my mind.

 

[AAABatteries]

The Trae Young hatred is entirely reasonable IMO. If you want to understand why, peruse the PG statistical rankings for last season.

There are five PGs who shot 8+ free throws a game: SGA, Luka, Lillard, Ja, and our friend Trae. Nobody else took more than 6 a game.

Can you guess where Trae ranks among his peers in the FT Frequent Flyers Club in field goal attempts and in every single shooting efficiency statistic? I bet you can!
And can you guess where he ranks among those peers in the turnover/game category? I bet you can guess that one too!

This season Lillard is shooting 42.5% from the field, and 37.1% from 3pt land
This season Young is shooting 43.5% from the field, and 38.4% from 3pt land.
This season Young has been a more efficient scorer than Lillard—even though Lillard has the luxury of playing alongside Giannis. You put Giannis on the Hawks—you would see Young even averaging more assists, and I would bet you that his efficiency goes up. Over the duration of Young’s career—opponents have been allowed to focus solely on stopping him.

The other players you mentioned all have had the luxury of having better teammates around them. SGA now has Holmgren, has had the luxury of another playmaker in Giddey , and previously to that had CP3. Luka has had the luxury of having at least 3 teammates throughout his career that are better than anybody that Young has had. Luka has played with Brunson (an all star caliber player), Porzingis (definitely in the conversation of all star), and Kyrie (a former all star and a dude that possibly has some of the best handles the game has ever seen). Ja was playing alongside Jaren jackson, Desmond Bane, Dillon Brooks…etc. Look at the best teammates that the players you mentioned have over the course of time: Giannis, Jalen Brunson, Porzingis, Kyrie Irving, a younger CP3, Chet Holmgren, a young Lemarcus Aldridge, Desmond Bane, Jaren Jackson Jr, prime CJ McCollum, Anfernee Simons.

At this point, the most talented teammate that Young has played with has been Dejounte Murray for a small fraction of his career. Murray would be in the bottom tier of that list of names that I just mentioned.

If you want to look at career numbers:
Lillard is 43.8% from the field, 34.7% from 3 point line

Trae for his career is
43.7% from the field, 35.6% from the 3 point line.

Even over the course of their careers—Young is at least a Lillard caliber player and has far more playmaking responsibility—but without the talent of teammates that Lillard has had.

A good way to evaluate a player is to see how much cherry-picking the fans defending the player have to do.

I think I’m the only Hawks fan on the board - or at least who posts - and while Trae is entertaining and hasn’t had a ton of talent, we will never win anything with him as our best player. He’s such a liability on defense and he seems at least slightly more interested in making 35 foot shots than winning.*


*I admit this is a hot take but I’ve watched a lot of his games and I don’t think it’s a stretch.

 

[Frostillicus]

I hate my team now. Trade everyone (except Naz).

 

[Jayrod]

West standings are wild now.

Essentially a 4-way tie for first and only a 9.5 game spread from 1 thru 10.

Utah just won their 2nd in a row to get to .500, which currently gets them the 10 seed.

 

[Yo Mama]

Strange random stat: before tonight, the Bucks hadn’t lost on a Tuesday since 2021 (26 straight wins).

 

[NewlyRetired]

OptaSTATS
https://twitter.com/OptaSTATS
@OptaSTATS


Since conferences were formed in 1970-71, there have been 333 instances of an NBA team starting 3-7 or worse through 10 games of a season.

The 2023-24 @LAClippers are the only one of those to hold the best record in their conference at the end of any day later that same season

 

[Dr. Octopus]

If the Bucks trade for Grant Williams, I swear to God that I'm giving up my season tickets...

He's literally the LAST guy that I'd want on my team.

Doc Rivers was just about the last guy I wanted to coach the team. And now all this Grant Williams talk. All we would need then is to trade for Marcus Smart and my nightmare season would be complete.

It is funny how the Bucks were considered one of the best teams in the East and a worthy challenger to Boston before the Doc hire. Now it's just assumed they're out in the 1st or 2nd round

Instant Karma! (We All Shine On)

Provided to YouTube by Universal Music GroupInstant Karma! (We All Shine On) · John Lennon · Yoko OnoInstant Karma! (We All Shine On)â 2020 Calderstone Produ...

www.youtube.com

 

[msudaisy26]

You can look at whatever stats you want. If you can't see the difference between Lillard in his prime and Trae right now, then maybe basketball isn't for you.

 

[the moops]

The defensive critiques that apply to Trae don't apply in anywhere near the same force to just about anybody in his perceived peer group among top guards.

They should. I love Tyrese Halliburton, but that guy is the worst defensive guard I have ever seen play in the NBA. I honestly think Trae is better at defense then him. And Dame has always been as bad of a defender as Trae. CJ McCollum too, that guy sucks

 

[mr. furley]

Strange random stat: before tonight, the Bucks hadn’t lost on a Tuesday since 2021 (26 straight wins).

fire Doc

 

[Jayrod]

The defensive critiques that apply to Trae don't apply in anywhere near the same force to just about anybody in his perceived peer group among top guards.

They should. I love Tyrese Halliburton, but that guy is the worst defensive guard I have ever seen play in the NBA. I honestly think Trae is better at defense then him. And Dame has always been as bad of a defender as Trae. CJ McCollum too, that guy sucks

You can hate on their defense all you want, but offense > defense in the NBA and the rules are built that way.

Each of those guys (Trae included) are really good NBA players. Being able to score is a more valuable skill than being able to slow someone down (because honestly nobody "stops" their opponent for very long).

Defense is much more of a team related concept than offense because stopping an NBA player 1 vs 1 is nigh impossible.

Curry isn't a good defender and Jokic is just decent and yet they are on the top of the list of current NBA stars.

 

[thecatch]

The defensive critiques that apply to Trae don't apply in anywhere near the same force to just about anybody in his perceived peer group among top guards.

They should. I love Tyrese Halliburton, but that guy is the worst defensive guard I have ever seen play in the NBA. I honestly think Trae is better at defense then him. And Dame has always been as bad of a defender as Trae. CJ McCollum too, that guy sucks

Trae has the 7th worst defensive rating of players that have played 1000+ minutes this year, worse than the guys you mentioned. I've heard people say he's better this year on that end and of course defensive stats have significant flaws, but yeah, he still sucks.

 

[the moops]

The defensive critiques that apply to Trae don't apply in anywhere near the same force to just about anybody in his perceived peer group among top guards.

They should. I love Tyrese Halliburton, but that guy is the worst defensive guard I have ever seen play in the NBA. I honestly think Trae is better at defense then him. And Dame has always been as bad of a defender as Trae. CJ McCollum too, that guy sucks

Trae has the 7th worst defensive rating of players that have played 1000+ minutes this year, worse than the guys you mentioned. I've heard people say he's better this year on that end and of course defensive stats have significant flaws, but yeah, he still sucks.

Defensive EPM has Halliburton at -1.5, Trae at -0.7. Actually has Dame at a +0.5.

Trae does suck on defense, no doubt. Others do too though

 

[Kev4029]

The defensive critiques that apply to Trae don't apply in anywhere near the same force to just about anybody in his perceived peer group among top guards.

They should. I love Tyrese Halliburton, but that guy is the worst defensive guard I have ever seen play in the NBA. I honestly think Trae is better at defense then him. And Dame has always been as bad of a defender as Trae. CJ McCollum too, that guy sucks

Trae has the 7th worst defensive rating of players that have played 1000+ minutes this year, worse than the guys you mentioned. I've heard people say he's better this year on that end and of course defensive stats have significant flaws, but yeah, he still sucks.

Drtg is a team stat, I wouldn't rely on it for much of anything.

 

[thecatch]

The defensive critiques that apply to Trae don't apply in anywhere near the same force to just about anybody in his perceived peer group among top guards.

They should. I love Tyrese Halliburton, but that guy is the worst defensive guard I have ever seen play in the NBA. I honestly think Trae is better at defense then him. And Dame has always been as bad of a defender as Trae. CJ McCollum too, that guy sucks

Trae has the 7th worst defensive rating of players that have played 1000+ minutes this year, worse than the guys you mentioned. I've heard people say he's better this year on that end and of course defensive stats have significant flaws, but yeah, he still sucks.

Drtg is a team stat, I wouldn't rely on it for much of anything.

Fair. I don't love any of the defensive stats and I'm not even sure what EPM is. But you don't need to go too far looking for defensive stats over the last 5 or so years that put Trae at the very bottom of the league and that 100% lines up with the eye test.

 

[the moops]

The defensive critiques that apply to Trae don't apply in anywhere near the same force to just about anybody in his perceived peer group among top guards.

They should. I love Tyrese Halliburton, but that guy is the worst defensive guard I have ever seen play in the NBA. I honestly think Trae is better at defense then him. And Dame has always been as bad of a defender as Trae. CJ McCollum too, that guy sucks

Trae has the 7th worst defensive rating of players that have played 1000+ minutes this year, worse than the guys you mentioned. I've heard people say he's better this year on that end and of course defensive stats have significant flaws, but yeah, he still sucks.

Drtg is a team stat, I wouldn't rely on it for much of anything.

Fair. I don't love any of the defensive stats and I'm not even sure what EPM is. But you don't need to go too far looking for defensive stats over the last 5 or so years that put Trae at the very bottom of the league and that 100% lines up with the eye test.

He absolutely is in the very bottom. My point was so are a few other offense only guards - yet everyone seems to just bag on Trae