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2025 Detroit Lions: 0-0 Rags retires before camp. (14 Viewers)
- Thread starter Da Guru
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah and Goff is perfect for his role. We won't overachieve with him but he's also a solid professional QB who will be able to keep morale up, bring good experience and allow young players to develop. We want to lose with dignity. Competitive losses.
You keep repeating this. The LA Rams receivers were average, nothing great. Tyrell Williams is a legitimate WR2/marginal WR1. Every year half of the top WR come out of nowhere to be studs. The Lions have several good prospects who have potential to step up. It is the easiest spot to fill in the NFL.
Deamon
Footballguy
Average? I'd say the Rams wrs were definitely better than average. But if you say their WR's and Detroit's are similar, then we will see how good goff's numbers are this year. I'm saying he's not a top 20qb. We'll check back end of season.
Deamon
Footballguy
Haha dude, I've done nothing but say how I like your team, I love their draft and what they're doing, I'm rooting for them, I just don't think Jared Goff is a good quarterback. Which I think is a good thing for you as it will help you get your future star QB next year. I've had nothing but good things to say about your team, organization, and their direction... not sure how that makes me pedantic but okay.
Deamon
Footballguy
Agree with everything here. I think it's fantastic that he's starting for you this year so you can have competitive loses and develop players. You guys are creating an argument where there isn't one.... You made a great trade and I'm hoping you guys get a nice top 5 pick and get your franchise QB next year. Goff will help you achieve that as he isn't very good.
Moonlight
Footballguy
You have a strong opinion on Goff I do not know too much about him and saw him play only a couple of times.
What type of QB coaching did Goff have with Rams? From what I can tell Goff had a new QB coach each year he was with the Rams
Looked up new Lions QB coach Mark Brunell's resume and this is his first coaching gig. He had a long pro career though, so its going to be interesting to see what happens.
Deamon
Footballguy
Not overly strong opinion. I just think he's a bottom 10 starting qb in the nfl like he has been the last 2 years. Not every qb can be in the top 20.
I'm not exactly sure on the QB coach of the Rams over the years. I think his head coach is brilliant though and had a lot of influence over him.
Unlike most people outside of this board, I think Goff is a below average placeholder qb until they draft a franchise qb. There's nothing wrong with that and If I was a Lions fan I'd be totally fine with that.
We will see how he looks this year. From the eye-test I personally feel he's lost his touch and isn't going to be a quality starter in this league once Detroit drafts their franchise qb.
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Shawnky
Footballguy
Moonlight
Footballguy
Lions dump 3 scouting staff members.
Lions informed college scouting coordinator Ron Miles, area scout Jay Muraco and pro scout Charles Brensinger they weren't being retained.
Holmes putting in his own people.
Also Dolphins cut their team Captaln safety Bobby McCain. He was ranked 48th out of top 64 safeties.
Lions informed college scouting coordinator Ron Miles, area scout Jay Muraco and pro scout Charles Brensinger they weren't being retained.
Holmes putting in his own people.
Also Dolphins cut their team Captaln safety Bobby McCain. He was ranked 48th out of top 64 safeties.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I saw the Tweets that came out of that, but it was pretty low key in context.
Okudah Media Zoom 5/7/21
I'll preface this by saying he was flat awful last year and maybe should let his play do the talking in 2021.
Started off the year with a hamstring injury that caused him to miss Week 1, first assignment was man coverage on Davante Adams. His core muscle injury went back to his OSU days - he was mulling over surgery last summer - and he re-injured it midseason. Also played through a shoulder injury. He had groin surgery after his season ended in mid-December. He's fully recovered.
No rookie camp, no OTAs, weird TC and no PS are probably a suboptimal way to start your rookie year.
But he has to play better in 2021.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
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Deamon
Footballguy
Yes, I've been very complimentary about your team. I think acquiring Goff was great, but I don't see him as a future franchise qb in the league and I don't think many NFL teams do. I think he will look how he did the last 2 years.... below average.
Let's see how he does this year and we can chat then about it then. I'll be happy to be wrong, I like the Lions.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Yeah, it's going to be very challenging getting much back on Goff if they try to move him after 2023. He'll be a cap casualty if he is not the guy they want.
Do people actually think we got two firsts and a third because Stafford is that much better of a quarterback? That was a one off situation, Carolina and Denver didn't come nearly as strong.
We got the draft pick haul bc the back half of the contract is obscene. We also made the Rams pay this year's signing bonus, which delayed the trade becoming official for several weeks. But the Dead Money goes down significantly from 31.5M 2022 to 12M in 2023 8M in 2024 and 4M the final year. They converted $15M of the bonus to salary in a restructure bc they had to make room for this year. Of course they also added $5M to his cap hit for each of the next three seasons.
He's basically a two year bridge. Even if they take a franchise QB in next year's draft, he is the likely starter for the next two seasons. Which is fine because I don't think anyone believes they'll be competitive before 2023.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
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Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Interesting YouTube video here on why the Rams problems were not Goff. It shows Goff constantly under pressure and states that Goff had the 6th best passer rating in the NFL when given a clean pocket.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Darnold is one of the worst QBs in the league - it's way too simple to blame Gase for his struggles if you watched him each week. He makes some of the dumbest decisions you'd ever see. He is in a great situation now though, so I will admit you can't bury him yet but I'm not hopeful for him lasting long as the starter in Carolina.
I really think the Goff fade was the result of numerous factors, not simply him no longer being average to good. The Ram's OLine had fallen off, Gurley lost a lot and then was replaced, the relationship between McVay and Goff had soured, the league had adjusted to the scheme and was handling the motion/sweeps better just to name a few.
McVay made adjustments himself last year, but I get the impression that relationship between Goff and McVay had become irreparable. With the control McVay has over the offense, if he and the QB no longer see eye to eye, it's not fertile ground for a QB to excel.
Again, I'm definitely not in the camp of Goff > Stafford. I wasn't a fan of Goff being part of the trade initially, until I really understood what why it went the way it did. All of that said, I think there is some unfair criticism of Goff. He's not going to carry your team, but he's not going to be the single thing stopping your team from winning either. He's one of many QB's in the league that the team would love to upgrade from, but it's not easy finding QB's that are better than average.
McVay made adjustments himself last year, but I get the impression that relationship between Goff and McVay had become irreparable. With the control McVay has over the offense, if he and the QB no longer see eye to eye, it's not fertile ground for a QB to excel.
Again, I'm definitely not in the camp of Goff > Stafford. I wasn't a fan of Goff being part of the trade initially, until I really understood what why it went the way it did. All of that said, I think there is some unfair criticism of Goff. He's not going to carry your team, but he's not going to be the single thing stopping your team from winning either. He's one of many QB's in the league that the team would love to upgrade from, but it's not easy finding QB's that are better than average.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I've been trying to better understand why Goff 2017-2018 morphed into a guy who stopped taking deep shots in 2020. Losing Brandin Cooks is part of the story. But the biggest thing was his deteriorating relationship with McVay. The guy who built him up, was most responsible for his development, became the guy who started calling him out in team meetings and in postgame press conferences.
Five quarterback coaches in five years. Biggest role for the QB coach on the LAR was to be the buffer between the QB and the HC. He didn't hire an OC until his 4th year. Once McVay started dropping into the QB room meetings (bc he was spending as much time game planning) things started to go south soon after. Obviously he is a great offensive genius - or at least he was before Gurley lost his mojo - but he handled the communication poorly. Devolved into constantly tearing him down without building him back up.
(aside - gonna be interesting to see how Stafford responds to the micromanagement.)
The other thing that happened with the NFL figuring out McVay is they stopped showing their defensive look so early. In his Pro Bowl years, McVay was giving him the hot read in the headset before the 15 second cutoff. Once word got out, they started disguising their looks and shifting after the mic cut out. The biggest frustration the HC had with his QB was him not being able to read defenses well and check out of the play call.
Dan Lambskin
Footballguy
I often wonder if it could have worked with a group of players that weren’t a bunch of career losers and only had exposure to Caldwell Country Club style of coaching
And despite their roster limitations, Detroit should have a good offensive line and running game to maximize what Goff is good at. I expect the offense will rely heavily on the short passing game - leaning on Hock and Swift, with occasional deep shots to Williams and Perriman. If the new slot guy can get open reliably, Goff could lead this offense pretty effectively. He's very accurate with a clean pocket.
Foosball God
Foos
The reason, imo, that Belichick proteges don't work is because they try to instill Patriots culture from the start and it just doesn't work that way. It's been a slow build to get to where Belichick is, and the OCs and DCs that come out of there don't have same respect level.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Amon-Ra should lead the team in WR targets & receptions. He doesn’t get much separation but he should be great at siting down in the seams between coverage. Not really a twitchy YAC guy but I expect him to excel at curl, dig & slant routes. If he gains Goff’s trust I could see him having a 110 target 85-874-4 type season.
FTR I’m hoping Hock sees a bump to 130+ targets & Swift catches 80-90 balls. They s/b the focal points.
Keep in [mind] I’m buying Honolulu blue Kool-Aid by the case off Amazon Fresh.
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Balco
Footballguy
Goff can be the qb on a playoff team - he has shown that. He is in the Alex Smith/Chad Pennington mold - keep the score close and they can be very effective managers. Ask them to lead a comeback down two scores by passing? Not going to work out.
Hockenson is going to be peppered with targets and Swift should be heavily involved in pass game. Issue is where is the other tight end and slot receiver?
Hockenson is going to be peppered with targets and Swift should be heavily involved in pass game. Issue is where is the other tight end and slot receiver?
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Patricia, Daniels and BOB are different personalities with varying overarching philosophies, but each managed to create very toxic cultures. Pretty arrogant dudes.
Charlie Weiss and his “we’re going to have a schematic advantage every single week” worked for about two years at ND.
Players will still buy into that when you’re winning. It’s a tougher sell when it looks like you’re not putting your players into a position that will allow them to succeed.
Quintricia completely turned over the roster from the Caldwell era. 2017 Lions who were still there at the end: Staff, Kenny, MJJ, Dahl, Decker, Jarrad, Agnew, Killebrew, Muhlbach, & Prater. 5 on offense, 1 defensive, 3 STers. I don’t know what the norm is for roster turnover for 3 years but 81% seems high. Those were the guys Matty wanted.
I doubt they’ll be many left by the of 2023: Hock, Swift, 3 O-linemen, the Okwaras, Okudah and Fox.
Patricia was an absolute jerk. Here the Darius Clay-Patricia saga:
Two incidents between Lions coach Matt Patricia and cornerback Darius Slay early in Patricia's tenure in Detroit began a rift between the two that might have contributed to Slay being traded, the player told ESPN on Thursday.
Slay, who on Thursday was dealt to the Philadelphia Eagles for two draft picks, talked about his respect for Lions owner Martha Ford, his teammates and the city of Detroit. But he told ESPN he didn't see "eye-to-eye a lot" with one person in the organization: Patricia.
The discord stems from two instances in 2018, before Patricia had coached his first game. One had Slay questioning what Patricia thought of him as a player and the other led him to lose respect for Patricia as a person, Slay said.
The first was a one-on-one meeting with Patricia after Slay had returned from working out with Richard Sherman, Aqib Talib and Xavier Rhodes, he said. Slay had just come off his first Pro Bowl appearance and an All-Pro nod after leading the NFL with eight interceptions in 2017.
In the meeting, Slay said, Patricia told him he wasn't "elite."
"I'm like, 'Huh?' I said, 'Huh.' I'm trying to see where he's coming at. He said I wasn't an elite corner and that I'm not in their category. I was coming off an All-Pro year, eight picks," Slay said. "That told me right there that he didn't have no respect for me. He told me I was a good player, but then to tell me what I'm not, so I said, OK. I just took that to the chin and said, 'OK, that's cool.'
"Then I bounced back to two back-to-back Pro Bowlers on him. Let him know how elite I was."
The incident that bothered Slay more, he said, happened later during a team meeting after a training camp practice that led them to "never see eye-to-eye" from then on. A player whom Slay declined to name caught a couple of passes on him.
After practice, Slay posted a picture on social media about him and the receiver. At the start of the meeting later that night, Patricia used the social media photo at the start of the meeting along with a small highlight tape of said player on the board before addressing Slay.
Slay, 29, said Patricia put the picture on the team board, with Patricia essentially telling him to stop kissing up to another player, although the coach used a more profane analogy. (Sucking his 'rooster').
Two incidents between Lions coach Matt Patricia and cornerback Darius Slay early in Patricia's tenure in Detroit began a rift between the two that might have contributed to Slay being traded, the player told ESPN on Thursday.
Slay, who on Thursday was dealt to the Philadelphia Eagles for two draft picks, talked about his respect for Lions owner Martha Ford, his teammates and the city of Detroit. But he told ESPN he didn't see "eye-to-eye a lot" with one person in the organization: Patricia.
The discord stems from two instances in 2018, before Patricia had coached his first game. One had Slay questioning what Patricia thought of him as a player and the other led him to lose respect for Patricia as a person, Slay said.
The first was a one-on-one meeting with Patricia after Slay had returned from working out with Richard Sherman, Aqib Talib and Xavier Rhodes, he said. Slay had just come off his first Pro Bowl appearance and an All-Pro nod after leading the NFL with eight interceptions in 2017.
In the meeting, Slay said, Patricia told him he wasn't "elite."
"I'm like, 'Huh?' I said, 'Huh.' I'm trying to see where he's coming at. He said I wasn't an elite corner and that I'm not in their category. I was coming off an All-Pro year, eight picks," Slay said. "That told me right there that he didn't have no respect for me. He told me I was a good player, but then to tell me what I'm not, so I said, OK. I just took that to the chin and said, 'OK, that's cool.'
"Then I bounced back to two back-to-back Pro Bowlers on him. Let him know how elite I was."
The incident that bothered Slay more, he said, happened later during a team meeting after a training camp practice that led them to "never see eye-to-eye" from then on. A player whom Slay declined to name caught a couple of passes on him.
After practice, Slay posted a picture on social media about him and the receiver. At the start of the meeting later that night, Patricia used the social media photo at the start of the meeting along with a small highlight tape of said player on the board before addressing Slay.
Slay, 29, said Patricia put the picture on the team board, with Patricia essentially telling him to stop kissing up to another player, although the coach used a more profane analogy. (Sucking his 'rooster').
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Patricia was the worst from several different angles. I'm just glad he's no longer there to poison the team. The new coach & GM are automatically better people to lead things going forward.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Deamon
Footballguy
facook
Footballguy
This does not bode well for Goff and Detroit. He can't read defenses = Lions are screwed. As a Hockenson owner I am hopeful he catches 120 balls this year, but I'm concerned.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
back after a long hiatus.
Have to say I like the lions draft. nothing wrong with building in the trenches, the only thing is when you pass on Fields and he ends up in your division, look out.
And keep tanking, play Goff, if he sucks, good, if he is good, so be it. Hes like a yo yo.
This rebuild wont be done in a single off season. That previous regime is the worst in club history, and thats saying something
Have to say I like the lions draft. nothing wrong with building in the trenches, the only thing is when you pass on Fields and he ends up in your division, look out.
And keep tanking, play Goff, if he sucks, good, if he is good, so be it. Hes like a yo yo.
This rebuild wont be done in a single off season. That previous regime is the worst in club history, and thats saying something
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Agree 100%. I was torn on Fields at 7 but once he was there I would have been okay with the pick. Their draft selections seemed to have been made with intention and a plan. I am cautiously optimistic (classic Lion’s fan). In regimes past they probably would have extended Kenny Golladay and drafted Devonta Smith at seven. I am glad neither of those things happened and am excited about a different approach. I just want a group that competes week in and week out for an entire game. That would be a victory for this fan.
Moonlight
Footballguy
Pistons are doing this type of thing. Competitive losses with some vets showing the young guys how to be pros.Ilov80s said:
Lions are at the bottom of most every power ranking. Not favored to win any game next year. We may have to be content watching the rookies develop and seeing if any of the FAs are keepers and if Okudah can show improvement.
But the biggest thing will be getting a read on whether Goff can be their long term QB.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
You think Hock is breaking the NFL record for TE receptions this year?facook said:
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Unfortunately, I think that will be tough to given the WRs we have. The line will give him time but Detroit has the worst WR group in the league by a wide margin. That is why I would have liked to see them draft Terrace Marshall in round 2 (and ARSB in round 4) just so we could maybe get a better beat on Goff. I think not adding the weapons for Goff means they aren't very attached to him and don't much care if he succeeds or not.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
It’s not about Goff.
If Matthew had not requested a trade, the draft might have gone that way. Caldwell got the job in part bc he came into the interview having evaluated all 665 pass attempts (or whatever the number was) from the year before. Think about all the years the off-season machinations (correctly) centered around #9: does he have enough weapons, does he need a QB coach, is this the right OC, would simplifying the game plan make it easier for him to succeed, et al.
For the first time in 12 years the needs of the team outweighed the comfort of the one player. That’s not a bad thing.
Staff was the most important individual, it was justified, bc the position is highly valued. He provided very good leadership. But it’s a different mindset rn.
This year is important for Goff but in my mind it’s a 2 year audition. Doesn’t make economic sense to part ways with him after one year. Since it’s not #winnow it makes sense to focus on the linemen first.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Only issue with that in regards to the idea of evaluating Goff is ok so next year we get 1 or 2 more significant rookie WRs. They will just be rookies and that still leaves uncertainty.
IMHO, the WR are more than good enough. Tyrell Williams only year as a #1 WR he posted 69-1059-7....which is not bad. His other years in San Diego, Rivers focused heavily on Keenan Allen. Tyrell had decent years for the Raiders, but was banged up most of the time which impacted his numbers. Last year missing the season with a shoulder injury. He had a $44 million, 4-year deal with the Raiders, so he was well coveted. Assuming Tyrell is healthy, he is a legitimate #1 WR. I also like St. Brown to be very productive this year. Pair that with a pro-bowler at TE and a couple great options out of the backfield, the Lions can have a very productive passing game. Give Goff good protection, and I see no reason he can not get his QB rating up around 100 again. Probably drinking Kool-aid, but I am not overly concerned with the WR position. It is going to be a ball control offense featuring the running game and short passes with the deep threat sprinkled on top. This WR group is more than capable at handling the task and are fast enough to create mismatches and burn you.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
That is a really optimistic outlook for a WR who hasn't caught more than 43 passes in a season in 4 years.
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4 seasons. One as a distant WR#2 behind Keenan. Two banged up with ankle injuries and last season missed completely with a shoulder injury. His numbers when he plays are decent. He has good hands and good speed, although he did piss Rivers off with a game-winning drop. Of course the same thing happened to Swift in game #1, but that is forgotten.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Other than missing the entire 2020 year, were his injuries really that significant? Besides 2020, he has appeared on the injury report for only 5 games and only missed 2 games. He's got size and speed but I just don't see anything more than a complementary WR3 at this point. He did have that 1000 yard season when Keenan missed the whole year and the Chargers followed it up by draftng Mike Williams in the top 10. Tyrell barely out targeted Travis Benjamin the next year.
Moonlight
Footballguy
With the speed at WR with play action you can as you said burn the opposition. Lions must have a threatening ground game to do this which would be a new experience for Lions fans.
If the Lions offensive line is a top notch unit and the defensive line becomes an attacking, penetrating unit and Goff is average Lions will do better than they are currently being pegged. Lots of ifs but possible.
Moonlight
Footballguy
I think this is a good read on him. Both Perriman and Williams were signed to one year show me what you can do deals. Perriman has trouble staying healthy. Both guys are capable of the big play and I think Lions will have some as teams focus on Hock, Amon-Ra and our two good receiving RBs underneath.
facook
Footballguy
Hyperbole. I am hoping for a really good year, but I'm concerned Goff won't be nearly as good as many in here seem to think he will be, without McVay reading defenses for him presnap.
Apple Juice
Footballguy
It would take a lot of best case scenarios for the Lions offense to even be middle of the pack. They may put up some numbers in garbage time. For the most part I see them doing their best to run the ball and not make mistakes. The receivers are indeed the worst in the NFL, and on top of that it'd be a miracle if Perriman and Williams make it through the season. There will be WRs no has ever heard of playing significant time this year I would guess.
The silver lining for Goff could be the offensive line gelling quickly. If the run game can put him in third and short and give him time at least he won't be getting creamed back there. A successful season for Goff would be a lot of 210 yard 1-2 td games with 1 or fewer ints, with the Lions losing by ten or fewer points.
The silver lining for Goff could be the offensive line gelling quickly. If the run game can put him in third and short and give him time at least he won't be getting creamed back there. A successful season for Goff would be a lot of 210 yard 1-2 td games with 1 or fewer ints, with the Lions losing by ten or fewer points.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
This type of move I would only entertain if Rodgers left the division....
With the Jets signing Corey Davis, having Mims, and drafting Moore....Jamison Crowder may be on his way out. He could be a decent one year option at the slot and give Goff a short area target if could be had for a 7th rounder or so. I am not considering any cap impact however.
With the Jets signing Corey Davis, having Mims, and drafting Moore....Jamison Crowder may be on his way out. He could be a decent one year option at the slot and give Goff a short area target if could be had for a 7th rounder or so. I am not considering any cap impact however.
Apple Juice
Footballguy
Crowder would be a great pick-up. I'm guessing a lot of teams would be interested though. I'm guessing the Titans end up with him.
