22% of America is now Socialist (1 Viewer)

[Ministry of Pain]

Bill Maher made a good point that Sanders put a spotlight on Socialism in this country and that 22% of folks Maher included identify themselves as socialist.  

That's pretty much a 180 from Capitalism and I'm wondering if those numbers are going to grow. Rather than bash it, I'm trying to understand it better. The entitlement of it all seems to put me off. I believe it doesn't inspire folks to achieve but I also think Capitalism is failing when so many folks are unhappy and out of work or cannot find jobs that pay enough. 

Almost 1 in 4 Americans want some form of Socialism, what say you?

 

[Wrigley]

We are so ####ed

 

[Cjw_55106]

I guess it depends upon how you define socialism and frame the question. Obviously, we need some forms of it...but IMO, they should be as limited as possible. 

 

[Redwes25]

Bill Maher made a good point that Sanders put a spotlight on Socialism in this country and that 22% of folks Maher included identify themselves as socialist.  

That's pretty much a 180 from Capitalism and I'm wondering if those numbers are going to grow. Rather than bash it, I'm trying to understand it better. The entitlement of it all seems to put me off. I believe it doesn't inspire folks to achieve but I also think Capitalism is failing when so many folks are unhappy and out of work or cannot find jobs that pay enough. 

Almost 1 in 4 Americans want some form of Socialism, what say you?

Don't think it is pure socialist/communist system that people are looking towards but more of the Western European model. 

 

[TripItUp]

We are so ####ed

this...I don't know how many times we need to see socialism fail before we stop considering elements of it.

It's as if all logic leaves the room when people want free ####.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Bill Maher made a good point that Sanders put a spotlight on Socialism in this country and that 22% of folks Maher included identify themselves as socialist.  

That's pretty much a 180 from Capitalism and I'm wondering if those numbers are going to grow. Rather than bash it, I'm trying to understand it better. The entitlement of it all seems to put me off. I believe it doesn't inspire folks to achieve but I also think Capitalism is failing when so many folks are unhappy and out of work or cannot find jobs that pay enough. 

Almost 1 in 4 Americans want some form of Socialism, what say you?

Do you think that we actually have a capitalist system in the US?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I guess it depends upon how you define socialism and frame the question. Obviously, we need some forms of it...but IMO, they should be as limited as possible. 

A mix of both Cap/Soc?

We need to blend the two names...Capitalism + Socialism...let's try the 1st part of the 2nd and the last part of the 1st...Socialism, that's what we'll call this new idea. 

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Do you think that we actually have a capitalist system in the US?

Seems like some Socialist type programs exist and are they not causing budget nightmares for many?

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

A mix of both Cap/Soc?

We need to blend the two names...Capitalism + Socialism...let's try the 1st part of the 2nd and the last part of the 1st...Socialism, that's what we'll call this new idea. 

Check out The Zero Marginal Cost Society by Jeremy Rifken. 

He talks about a new economic model emerging call Collaborative Commons that (somewhat oversimplifying) is a hybrid economic form with elements of both capitalism and socialism. 

 

[timschochet]

A lot of people still seem to think it's the 1920s. 

Never since 1933, which is 83 years ago now, we have had entitlements and a safety net for the less fortunate. All the progressives like Sanders want to do is expand that a little. Sometimes that's necessary, sometimes it's a bad idea. At this point there's no set rule: it depends on the specifics. But either way we are not screwed. We are incredibly rich, incredibly productive, and that's only going to increase as time goes by. 

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Bill Maher made a good point that Sanders put a spotlight on Socialism in this country and that 22% of folks Maher included identify themselves as socialist.  

That's pretty much a 180 from Capitalism and I'm wondering if those numbers are going to grow. Rather than bash it, I'm trying to understand it better. The entitlement of it all seems to put me off. I believe it doesn't inspire folks to achieve but I also think Capitalism is failing when so many folks are unhappy and out of work or cannot find jobs that pay enough. 

Almost 1 in 4 Americans want some form of Socialism, what say you?

The terms and concepts are so vague and ill-defined its a near meaningless discussion.

"Almost 1 in 4 Americans want some form of Socialism, what say you?"  We've had "some form of socialism" in this country since the very beginning, as does most every country on earth. What do the other 3 want?

 

[GroveDiesel]

Seems like some Socialist type programs exist and are they not causing budget nightmares for many?

I'd argue that we have more than "some" socialist type programs. The US has been steadily falling in its ranking of free economies for over a decade. 

What's interesting is that there are numerous countries that have traditionally been more socialist than the US, that many US socialists/left leaning folks have pointed to as being worthy of emulation, that have been heading in the other direction and becoming more free. 

I think one only has to look at the disasters of the more socialist economies around the world to see how it plays out over time. When you look at the more socialist economies in the EU, they are struggling. When you look at the socialist economies in South America, they are struggling. 

Yes, capitalism is terrible. But it's also the least terrible system we have. But we certainly do jot have capitalism in the US, and for those on the left to point fingers and say that the US system is so bad because it's capitalist is pretty bold when they've spent the last 60 years taking it pretty solidly in the other direction. Any country with a top 3 highest corporate tax rate in the world and government spending that is 40% of GDP is not very capitalist.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

The terms and concepts are so vague and ill-defined its a near meaningless discussion.

"Almost 1 in 4 Americans want some form of Socialism, what say you?"  We've had "some form of socialism" in this country since the very beginning, as does most every country on earth. What do the other 3 want?

1 in 4 folks want to expand Socialism to a more dominant part of the landscape. 

Most folks are not met with cheers on welfare, most are looked down upon. Almost 1/4 of this country wants to expand these programs. 

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Specific social programs, to help elderly and disabled for example, are positive benefit to US society IMO. The Federal government is well placed to provide these programs, but has issues executing (VA for example).

Broad social programs to support the masses are negative to US society IMO. Able bodies citizens need to pull their weight, and pay their fair share of taxes. Federal government should stay out of the business of broad social welfare.

I'm sure this labels me a socialist to some, but I wouldn't classify myself as one.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

A lot of people still seem to think it's the 1920s. 

Never since 1933, which is 83 years ago now, we have had entitlements and a safety net for the less fortunate. All the progressives like Sanders want to do is expand that a little. Sometimes that's necessary, sometimes it's a bad idea. At this point there's no set rule: it depends on the specifics. But either way we are not screwed. We are incredibly rich, incredibly productive, and that's only going to increase as time goes by. 

You sound like Hilary. 

 

[Shutout]

I'd argue that we have more than "some" socialist type programs. The US has been steadily falling in its ranking of free economies for over a decade. 

What's interesting is that there are numerous countries that have traditionally been more socialist than the US, that many US socialists/left leaning folks have pointed to as being worthy of emulation, that have been heading in the other direction and becoming more free. 

I think one only has to look at the disasters of the more socialist economies around the world to see how it plays out over time. When you look at the more socialist economies in the EU, they are struggling. When you look at the socialist economies in South America, they are struggling. 

Yes, capitalism is terrible. But it's also the least terrible system we have. But we certainly do jot have capitalism in the US, and for those on the left to point fingers and say that the US system is so bad because it's capitalist is pretty bold when they've spent the last 60 years taking it pretty solidly in the other direction. Any country with a top 3 highest corporate tax rate in the world and government spending that is 40% of GDP is not very capitalist.

I think that number is relative and would have to be looked at in the context of other countries to get  a true meaning.

 

[Shutout]

Specific social programs, to help elderly and disabled for example, are positive benefit to US society IMO. The Federal government is well placed to provide these programs, but has issues executing (VA for example).

Broad social programs to support the masses are negative to US society IMO. Able bodies citizens need to pull their weight, and pay their fair share of taxes. Federal government should stay out of the business of broad social welfare.

I'm sure this labels me a socialist to some, but I wouldn't classify myself as one.

I can easily understand example of the "beneficial" socialist programs but what would be some good examples of "bad" socialist programs (just thinking it might be good for us to list specifics so that we can narrow it down to a degree because obviously, very few people are going to be extremists in either direction).

 

[gianmarco]

I think far more than 22% of America don't know what they are or what they want.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I can easily understand example of the "beneficial" socialist programs but what would be some good examples of "bad" socialist programs (just thinking it might be good for us to list specifics so that we can narrow it down to a degree because obviously, very few people are going to be extremists in either direction).

Let's start with Obamacare for bad programs.

 

[Shutout]

I think far more than 22% of America don't know what they are or what they want.

Might be true but that doesn't mean they are part of the 22% that reported they do. I think it is more likely that what a good portion of the 22% that reported truly think of as socialism is more in line with the current European markets and not necessarily what we tend to speak of as the traditional socialism concept.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I think far more than 22% of America don't know what they are or what they want.

We can add the 44% voting for Trump, that gives us 2/3 of the country pretty fed up with it all. 

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

I can easily understand example of the "beneficial" socialist programs but what would be some good examples of "bad" socialist programs (just thinking it might be good for us to list specifics so that we can narrow it down to a degree because obviously, very few people are going to be extremists in either direction).

The wording was "broad" social programs, and an example of a broad social program I would oppose would be a Basic Income Guarantee (BIG). Too much disincentive to not work and exploit the system in a program like that.

 

[Shutout]

Let's start with Obamacare for bad programs.

Sure.  Expand. But because we have a mega thread for Obamacare, can we put it into the context of how it is like or unlike models of healthcare in other countries?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Sure.  Expand. But because we have a mega thread for Obamacare, can we put it into the context of how it is like or unlike models of healthcare in other countries?

All I know is this....compared to pre-Obamacare I am now paying significantly more and getting significantly less. 

I'm middle class(no class if you ask some), probably encompasses an awful lot of folks. 

 

[Shutout]

The wording was "broad" social programs, and an example of a broad social program I would oppose would be a Basic Income Guarantee (BIG). Too much disincentive to not work and exploit the system in a program like that.

I've read "some" of the thread on that subject but that certainly qualifies as "broad".  So that is different in the regards that it is "tiered" and not stagnant across the spectrum but what if someone countered with a statement such as "it is a rising tides raise all boats" type of program? Sure, there will be people who will have less incentive but do we live in a country where there are always a good portion of people who want to have that little +1 over everyone else and would naturally counterbalance that portion, leaving us with a median?

 

[Galileo]

All I know is this....compared to pre-Obamacare I am now paying significantly more and getting significantly less. 

I'm middle class(no class if you ask some), probably encompasses an awful lot of folks. 

I am not an Obamacare fan, but would your situation be any different if Obamacare didn't exist?  It seems to me my premiums were headed up and benefits down before Obamacare hit the landscape.

 

[matuski]

Our country has included several Socialist ideas and programs for ... most of its history?

I would imagine we are and have always been somewhere in the middle of the pack versus other countries when it comes to levels of "Socialism".

Stupid people just react to the word in the way they have been told to.

 

[Redwes25]

Why is this a surprise to anyone?  This country is becoming more radicalized on both left and right every day.  I am only surprised the number isn't higher.  

 

[Shutout]

All I know is this....compared to pre-Obamacare I am now paying significantly more and getting significantly less. 

I'm middle class(no class if you ask some), probably encompasses an awful lot of folks. 

I pay more now too. I honestly don't know how much of that is attributed to the Healthcare industry issues in the country in general or the dogfights over Obamacare that have waged for five years but, yes, I pay more.

But I also think that its an issue where it takes time for the impact to be felt and for us to get to a point to where we can discuss Obamacare in personal and moral and humanitarian terms instead of just numbers. I'm sure your extra $100 or mine or whatever it is, is part of the foundation that saves people's lives who went without or under served in the past. 

I'll be honest. this is one I'm torn on because I can really spin it into layers upon layers of how it helps, hurts, etc, and in all cases it always comes back to whose ox is getting gored.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I pay more now too. I honestly don't know how much of that is attributed to the Healthcare industry issues in the country in general or the dogfights over Obamacare that have waged for five years but, yes, I pay more.

But I also think that its an issue where it takes time for the impact to be felt and for us to get to a point to where we can discuss Obamacare in personal and moral and humanitarian terms instead of just numbers. I'm sure your extra $100 or mine or whatever it is, is part of the foundation that saves people's lives who went without or under served in the past. 

I'll be honest. this is one I'm torn on because I can really spin it into layers upon layers of how it helps, hurts, etc, and in all cases it always comes back to whose ox is getting gored.

Per month...glad you're not looking out for my money. 

 

[Chadstroma]

I would say that 90% of the 22% have no idea what socialist means.

 

[TripItUp]

 All the progressives like Sanders want to do is expand that a little.

stating higher education and healthcare are rights, is not "expanding a little". 

That's straight up socialism.

 

[The Commish]

stating higher education and healthcare are rights, is not "expanding a little". 

That's straight up socialism.

For education, it's a relatively small expansion.  We are already ok with 13 years of education, but it's some significant social infringement to go to 17?  Give me a break.  As far as healthcare goes, I don't know where I land on this spectrum.  As one that believes our healthcare should not be a "for profit" enterprise I struggle with where to draw the line.  In a perfect world our government would protect us in the private market, but given the reality that in order to do that, they have to bite the hand that feeds them, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Shutout]

Per month...glad you're not looking out for my money. 

Yes, it's about $1400/year for me. 

 

[Ministry of Pain]

For education, it's a relatively small expansion.  We are already ok with 13 years of education, but it's some significant social infringement to go to 17?  Give me a break.  As far as healthcare goes, I don't know where I land on this spectrum.  As one that believes our healthcare should not be a "for profit" enterprise I struggle with where to draw the line.  In a perfect world our government would protect us in the private market, but given the reality that in order to do that, they have to bite the hand that feeds them, I'm not holding my breath.

How about we make better use of the 13 years we have now? Why stop at 17, why not forever thru life? Why limit it at that point?

 

[Jobber]

Broad socialist programs. Great. Now only women get the free ####.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

You can feel the cast iron pan heating up in here...

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Yes, it's about $1400/year for me. 

$2200 here

 

[The Commish]

For education, it's a relatively small expansion.  We are already ok with 13 years of education, but it's some significant social infringement to go to 17?  Give me a break.  As far as healthcare goes, I don't know where I land on this spectrum.  As one that believes our healthcare should not be a "for profit" enterprise I struggle with where to draw the line.  In a perfect world our government would protect us in the private market, but given the reality that in order to do that, they have to bite the hand that feeds them, I'm not holding my breath.

How about we make better use of the 13 years we have now? Why stop at 17, why not forever thru life? Why limit it at that point?

If your argument is that it's an arbitrary line at 17 years too, I'd agree.  It's arbitrary at pretty much any point you choose.  So the question you have to ask is what are you trying to accomplish with education and where does it make the most sense to pass the responsibility of from the government to the individual.  So we can answer your questions after we establish the goals of our education system.

 

[bud29]

How about we make better use of the 13 years we have now? Why stop at 17, why not forever thru life? Why limit it at that point?

Some ironclad logic here.

 

[wazoo11]

Four legs good, two legs bad! 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

That number is way too low. It's a much higher percentage of people that want other people's stuff - which is really what these people are saying when they want socialism. They don't care about the textbook mechanism.

 

[Zigg]

It will never cease to amaze me how much Americans love America, but don't really care for Americans.  The fact that free healthcare and some post secondary schooling is radical, is a touch sad in my opinion. 

 

[Shutout]

But it's not other people's stuff, it's OUR stuff (all of us), right?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

But it's not other people's stuff, it's OUR stuff (all of us), right?

Uh, no.

 

[IC FBGCav]

this...I don't know how many times we need to see socialism fail before we stop considering elements of it.

It's as if all logic leaves the room when people want free ####.

Why should McDonalds and Walmart get all the free ####?    They pay their workers so little that the US government has to subsidize their employees while they have record profits.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/walmart-government-subsidies-study#51652

Walmart is the beneficiary of billions of dollars per year in federal subsidies, according to a new report [PDF] from the non-partisan, progressive group Americans for Tax Fairness.

The report estimates that Walmart and the Walton family—which co-founded the company and still owns a majority share—collectively profit from nearly $7.8 billion per year in federal subsidies and tax breaks.

“This report shows that our current system is anything but fair – rather it provides special treatment to America’s biggest corporations and richest families leaving individual taxpayers and small businesses to pick up the tab,” the report concluded.

The $7.8 billion includes an estimated $6.2 billion in public assistance for low-wage Walmart employees, including programs like food stamps, subsidized housing, and Medicaid. It also includes an estimated $70 million per year in “economic development subsidies” from state and legal governments eager to host Walmart in their cities.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

$6.2b of the $7.8b goes to Wal-Mart employees and that's a benefit for...Wal-Mart?

 

[TripItUp]

Why should McDonalds and Walmart get all the free ####?    They pay their workers so little that the US government has to subsidize their employees while they have record profits.

perhaps mcdonalds and Walmart workers should give themselves in demand skillsets so they're not making subpar wages.

your worth what the free market says your worth.  If you didn't try hard in high school or pursue a higher education or trade thereafter, that's on you, not me.

It's amazing what people think is "owed" to them just because they were born in a country of wealth.  Wealth that was built on hard work, not socialistic principles.

 

[IC FBGCav]

perhaps mcdonalds and Walmart workers should give themselves in demand skillsets so they're not making subpar wages.

your worth what the free market says your worth.  If you didn't try hard in high school or pursue a higher education or trade thereafter, that's on you, not me.

It's amazing what people think is "owed" to them just because they were born in a country of wealth.  Wealth that was built on hard work, not socialistic principles.

Maybe a company making record profits should pay a wage where people could support themselves and not suck off the gov't.  

 

[IC FBGCav]

$6.2b of the $7.8b goes to Wal-Mart employees and that's a benefit for...Wal-Mart?

Yes.   If the employees are getting it from the govt they won't demand it from them.