A Prayer Of Salvation (3 Viewers)

[Navin Johnson]

know it is common for Christians to accuse atheists of not having a moral compass. And I'll admit I held that belief at one point

I just can’t fathom this mindset. For obviously smart reasonable people (like yourself) to not see that people can want to just be a good human beings just for the sake of it without needed to do it for some God or “reward” afterwards makes no sense to me.

I assume there are things you used to believe that you look back at and can't believe you used to believe that.

Christianity for me

 

[WDIK2]

You want to see what a politics forum would look like now just dip your toe into the geek club. 30 seconds in you feel like you need a shower. It would be nonstop deleting posts.

You weren't kidding. I haven't visited that site in years. It's shocking and sad because of the familiar names I'm seeing.

 

[fruity pebbles]

You want to see what a politics forum would look like now just dip your toe into the geek club. 30 seconds in you feel like you need a shower. It would be nonstop deleting posts.

You weren't kidding. I haven't visited that site in years. It's shocking and sad because of the familiar names I'm seeing.

Exactly. A lot of them posted here.

 

[Zow]

So if someone takes these steps and learns what we can call the "historical facts" around other religions and their own religion, then they'll be more aligned with reality. Now what? From your earlier post, you said that returning to reality will provide "a much better understanding of our existence and appreciation for our life here on earth." Is that the goal? Or does this understanding and appreciation bring someone to some other goal? "Understanding and appreciation" sounds to be on par with the religious idea of simply believing the right things.

I framed that example in a way to be closer to Paddington's mindset than my own. I have no interest in changing anyone's mind and don't have any goals for others.

I do believe that a person who did those things would have a better appreciation for other religions and perhaps be more open-minded.

I also worry that a religious person's focus on the afterlife and view that the world is evil leads to worse outcomes here on earth.

I know it is common for Christians to accuse atheists of not having a moral compass. And I'll admit I held that belief at one point before getting to "know" so many of you here on FBG (and obviously some IRL). But, there is clearly a desire by you, and others, for things to be better. That's all I really meant by a "goal". I assumed your original post was more of a rhetorical response to Paddington than an actual presentation of a better way, but I do wonder if there's something that can be presented from the non-religious side that aims to transform us into better humans. I thought maybe this idea of understanding and appreciating could be discussed as a way to get humans to love each other more and care for this world we live in.

I always thought this was telling on yourself.

"How can you have a moral compass if not for god/religion?"

They are essentially saying "if God were proven to be fake there'd be no reason for me not to kill/assault/steal etc"

I know that as a Christian, I don't think that. And @dgreen does not think that. It would seem obvious. Clearly there are zillions of non Christian people who are "good people" or would be said to have a strong "moral compass".

Do you employ the argument of "how can you have a moral compass if you are an athiest"?

Zow's comments above were interesting. The Catholic Church teaches that there is a natural law giving everyone a baseline moral compass, whether they are fellow believers or not.

Right. To clarify, my teenage mental process above was unique to me and it was my belief at the time - not a lesson some priest taught me from the Catechism or something - that non-believers lack some moral compass.

 

[Phil Elliott]

What would be the steps that you'd lay out for a return to reality?

Step 1. Do some LSD
Step 2. .....

Just joking (kind of)

I'd recommend that most religious people educate themselves on other religions. Understand their histories, their ethics, traditions, how they were derived and why. Also do a deeper dive on the historical context of their own religion. Who created it? Why did they create it? How has it changed over time? Does it borrow from other religions that predate it? Finally, and perhaps most importantly, adjust for confirmation bias.

I know there are many churches that include visiting other religion church's worship services as part of the confirmation process. The students may go into it with an already bias perception but they get to experience the other religions.

 

[fatness]

Honestly, I think I'd have a really hard time imagining what it would be like to have a secular hat on so it's hard to say.

I think there's a lot of overlap in what secular culture cares about and what Christianity cares about.

There's a great overlap in what secular culture and Christian culture care about. People are people, and most of us have similar instincts and senses of right and wrong. The main difference I see is that Christian culture in general is more desirous of controlling the actions and thoughts of others than is secular culture in general. I'm not talking philosophically by the way; I'm talking about the way people behave.

As for being religious and imagining what having a secular hat on is like, I've been through that. I was raised very religiously (I don't think Christianly is a word) for the first 17 years of my life, and from ages 12 to 17 wanted to become a minister. Church, Sunday school, youth fellowship, religious retreats, writing to seminaries for application information, that was me, what I believed in, what I wanted to do. And then suddenly my belief in god was gone. There was no precipitating event, it just wasn't there any more. So I was left looking at blowing up my entire life plan of becoming a minister, or lying to myself to get through it and maybe grow back some belief or something. So there was really only one choice there, at age 17 and knowing what was right and what was wrong. I walked away from what I believed in, because I no longer believed in it.

And besides having to change what colleges I was applying to, this change I thought would be so drastic made little difference in my life. I still went by my own sense of right and wrong, and still followed what I wanted to do, and I didn't change at all as a person, didn't treat other people differently.

Living on both sides of the Christian/secular fence has been mostly the same for me. I can't advise you "hey, just don't believe at all for a year or 2, and then turn it back on, to see what it's like" because it doesn't work like that. Belief comes honestly from within. Nonbelief comes honestly from within.

 

[dgreen]

The main difference I see is that Christian culture in general is more desirous of controlling the actions and thoughts of others than is secular culture in general. I'm not talking philosophically by the way; I'm talking about the way people behave.

Or do both Christian and secular culture want to control the actions and thoughts of others, they just differ in what they consider big/important enough to try and control? For example, both cultures want to control other people's actions of murder. However, some Christians want to control people's sexuality and gender while secular culture doesn't. But, I don't think that's because secular culture lacks the same desire to control; I think it's because they don't think sexuality and gender is something that is wrong and should be controlled.

Yes, I agree that many Christians have a longer list of things they want to control. I am struggling to think of an example that secularists want to control that Christians don't, but I'd guess it's out there somewhere. Christians aren't a monolith, but secularists even less so, so it is hard to apply a single generalization to the larger group.

And thanks for the background on your life. I hadn't heard that before. I wish I went to seminary. Maybe something I'll consider in retirement.

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Some of the stories in here remind me that I think we expose children to religion at far too young of an age

Not sure how you could realistically enforce it but I’d love to see some legislation passed that limits exposure until kids are 13+ or 18+ (similar to movies, social media, porn, etc)

Would also be nice if parents exposed children to other religions than their own so kids would know they have alternate paths to follow

Unfortunately I think far too many people end up blindly following their parents religion just because that’s all they know and all they have known (I mean some of these kids are taken to church before they can even walk).

I realize this is likely to be an unpopular opinion but I think it would do more good than harm to our society

 

[dgreen]

Some of the stories in here remind me that I think we expose children to religion at far too young of an age

Not sure how you could realistically enforce it but I’d love to see some legislation passed that limits exposure until kids are 13+ or 18+ (similar to movies, social media, porn, etc)

Would also be nice if parents exposed children to other religions than their own so kids would know they have alternate paths to follow

Unfortunately I think far too many people end up blindly following their parents religion just because that’s all they know and all they have known (I mean some of these kids are taken to church before they can even walk).

I realize this is likely to be an unpopular opinion but I think it would do more good than harm to our society

@fatness Well, I said " I am struggling to think of an example that secularists want to control that Christians don't". Of course, Dan admits this is an unpopular opinion and I'd assume most secularists would disagree with forcing this on religious families, although I wouldn't be surprised if many secularists are sympathetic to the sentiment.

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Some of the stories in here remind me that I think we expose children to religion at far too young of an age

Not sure how you could realistically enforce it but I’d love to see some legislation passed that limits exposure until kids are 13+ or 18+ (similar to movies, social media, porn, etc)

Would also be nice if parents exposed children to other religions than their own so kids would know they have alternate paths to follow

Unfortunately I think far too many people end up blindly following their parents religion just because that’s all they know and all they have known (I mean some of these kids are taken to church before they can even walk).

I realize this is likely to be an unpopular opinion but I think it would do more good than harm to our society

@fatness Well, I said " I am struggling to think of an example that secularists want to control that Christians don't". Of course, Dan admits this is an unpopular opinion and I'd assume most secularists would disagree with forcing this on religious families, although I wouldn't be surprised if many secularists are sympathetic to the sentiment.

I’m looking at it from the perspective that so many laws we have in this country are ultimately driven by religious morality

Marijuana and sports gambling are only now becoming decriminalized at a state level

Abortion rights took a step backwards

Assisted suicide is still taboo

I just think if we had less people indoctrinated at such a young age there’d be a different attitude with some of this stuff

How about this for an example. If I told my kids at a young age it was acceptable to eat cats and dogs, they’d grow up eating cats and dogs (and there is really nothing inherently wrong with eating cats and dogs vs cows and chickens, but culturally we decided to draw a line there). Now if as teenagers i suddenly brought home dog and cat meat for dinner, I think they would likely not be so supportive of eating it

Make sense?

 

[Sullie]

I'm not a guy that gets in the weeds and argues, nothing against it, just not my thing. I haven't read all the responses and don't plan to (I know where these things usually end up unfortunately) but I do support the thread and the notion of the salvation of souls, so I'll just add my own prayer if anyone want to pray it with me. If not that's okay too. We can agree to disagree without hatred or anger towards one another and without making fun of each other's beliefs or non-beliefs.

Linkage

Prayer for the Salvation of the World.​

Father, hear our prayers for the salvation of the world. Grant Mercy to all souls that turned away from You. Open their hearts and minds with Your light.
Gather Your children from the east and the west, from the north and the south.

Have mercy O God on those who do not know You. Bring them out of darkness into Your light. You are our saving God Who leads us in our salvation. Protect us from evil.
Bless and praise You O Lord, hear our prayers and answer us. You, our Savior, are the hope of all the ends of the Earth and the distant seas. May Your way be known upon Earth; among all nations Your salvation.

We put the world in Your hands; fill us with Your love. Grant us peace through Christ, our Lord.

Amen


Peace everyone!

 

[Zow]

Some of the stories in here remind me that I think we expose children to religion at far too young of an age

Not sure how you could realistically enforce it but I’d love to see some legislation passed that limits exposure until kids are 13+ or 18+ (similar to movies, social media, porn, etc)

Would also be nice if parents exposed children to other religions than their own so kids would know they have alternate paths to follow

Unfortunately I think far too many people end up blindly following their parents religion just because that’s all they know and all they have known (I mean some of these kids are taken to church before they can even walk).

I realize this is likely to be an unpopular opinion but I think it would do more good than harm to our society

Any such legislation would almost certainly be unconstitutional. There is a fundamental right to exercise religion in the Bill of Rights whereas there is no such right to view a movie, view pornography, etc. There is also a fundamental right to procreate and parent one's children.

 

[Zow]

I'm not a guy that gets in the weeds and argues, nothing against it, just not my thing. I haven't read all the responses and don't plan to (I know where these things usually end up unfortunately) but I do support the thread and the notion of the salvation of souls, so I'll just add my own prayer if anyone want to pray it with me. If not that's okay too. We can agree to disagree without hatred or anger towards one another and without making fun of each other's beliefs or non-beliefs.

Linkage

Prayer for the Salvation of the World.​

Father, hear our prayers for the salvation of the world. Grant Mercy to all souls that turned away from You. Open their hearts and minds with Your light.
Gather Your children from the east and the west, from the north and the south.

Have mercy O God on those who do not know You. Bring them out of darkness into Your light. You are our saving God Who leads us in our salvation. Protect us from evil.
Bless and praise You O Lord, hear our prayers and answer us. You, our Savior, are the hope of all the ends of the Earth and the distant seas. May Your way be known upon Earth; among all nations Your salvation.

We put the world in Your hands; fill us with Your love. Grant us peace through Christ, our Lord.

Amen


Peace everyone!

You mean save us from the eternal damnation H/he created and chooses to send us when we don't do exactly what we want within H/his rules despite giving us the ability to exercise free will and critical thinking meaning much of us may deduce in good faith not to follow said rules?

If so, such a nice guy, that G/god.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

Would also be nice if parents exposed children to other religions than their own so kids would know they have alternate paths to follow

Unfortunately I think far too many people end up blindly following their parents religion just because that’s all they know and all they have known (I mean some of these kids are taken to church before they can even walk).

This is something I've thought about for a very long time. Not so much as indoctrination, but limiting options.

I asked this before in one of these threads, but how can Christians be so confident they're getting it right unless they've truly explored atleast a few of the other major religions, ancient religions, lesser known religions, ect with the same objectivity and open minded approach they take to Christianity?

I often ask myself if a person were exposed equally to all and also no religion what would they choose without cultural, societal, familial influences.

 

[Psychopav]

I'm not a guy that gets in the weeds and argues, nothing against it, just not my thing. I haven't read all the responses and don't plan to (I know where these things usually end up unfortunately) but I do support the thread and the notion of the salvation of souls, so I'll just add my own prayer if anyone want to pray it with me. If not that's okay too. We can agree to disagree without hatred or anger towards one another and without making fun of each other's beliefs or non-beliefs.

Linkage

Prayer for the Salvation of the World.​

Father, hear our prayers for the salvation of the world. Grant Mercy to all souls that turned away from You. Open their hearts and minds with Your light.
Gather Your children from the east and the west, from the north and the south.

Have mercy O God on those who do not know You. Bring them out of darkness into Your light. You are our saving God Who leads us in our salvation. Protect us from evil.
Bless and praise You O Lord, hear our prayers and answer us. You, our Savior, are the hope of all the ends of the Earth and the distant seas. May Your way be known upon Earth; among all nations Your salvation.

We put the world in Your hands; fill us with Your love. Grant us peace through Christ, our Lord.

Amen


Peace everyone!

You mean save us from the eternal damnation H/he created and chooses to send us when we don't do exactly what we want within H/his rules despite giving us the ability to exercise free will and critical thinking meaning much of us may deduce in good faith not to follow said rules?

If so, such a nice guy, that G/god.

This is a bit beyond and also misstates the Christian perspective in several key ways:

• He created free will. The damnation is separation from Him, which mankind chose. The good faith you mentioned is in operation, but it must come with sincerity of heart and a commitment to a well formed conscience.
• The starting point for all humans born today is estrangement from Him, and He is constantly working to bring us to union with Him. That becomes eternal if we never become reconciled. He doesn't "choose" to send us anywhere any more than the wind "chooses" not to move us when we choose to stand still and not be moved by it.
• The way we become reconciled with Him is to turn our hearts to Him and let Him work in us. What you refer to as rules are most likely a misunderstanding of how that works - not necessarily on your part but on the part of those who preach it or put it into practice.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Honestly, I think I'd have a really hard time imagining what it would be like to have a secular hat on so it's hard to say.

I think a good starting point you could use is simply strip out the theological part of Christianity. Would it be fair to assume you know the difference between right and wrong, good and bad for the vast majority of things, without them being explicitly stated in the Bible?

 

[dgreen]

Honestly, I think I'd have a really hard time imagining what it would be like to have a secular hat on so it's hard to say.

I think a good starting point you could use is simply strip out the theological part of Christianity. Would it be fair to assume you know the difference between right and wrong, good and bad for the vast majority of things, without them being explicitly stated in the Bible?

Yes, I think without the Bible I'd still know basic right and wrong. But I also don't think that's what the Bible is trying to do. I don't see it as a rulebook for all people throughout all time.

 

[dkp993]

wind "chooses" not to move us when we choose to stand still and not be moved by it.

Moved by the wind? So the wind… a story about something that (possibly) happened 2000 years ago that I have to have been born in the right part of the world to have possibly heard and then I’m expected to blindly believe completely despite the other stories with similar thread lines out there. And if I don’t, my soul is damned to torture for eternity.
That’s not so much a wind as it is a gentle desktop fan in the next room, and I’m expected to act like it’s knocked me down and carrying me across the world.
Sure doesn’t sound like a caring God, especially since he created the eternal damnation too.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Yes, I think without the Bible I'd still know basic right and wrong. But I also don't think that's what the Bible is trying to do. I don't see it as a rulebook for all people throughout all time.

That's fine. I'm just trying to address your question, " but I do wonder if there's something that can be presented from the non-religious side that aims to transform us into better humans. I thought maybe this idea of understanding and appreciating could be discussed as a way to get humans to love each other more and care for this world we live in."

If we agree that many right vs wrong, good vs bad determinations can be made outside of the Bible (or any theology), then we can develop a list of attributes and behaviors that make for better humans and a better society. My guiding principle would be the outcomes of our behaviors. For example, I feel better when I forgive. I feel better when I'm forgiven. I feel better when I am accepting of others. I feel better when I'm accepted. Thus forgiveness and acceptance are behaviors that I should aspire to. We can expand that personal experience to what's best for society.

If we can agree that morality is best measured by the outcomes of our individual actions, then we can build a framework for human behavior that is rooted in shared experience. Forgiveness, acceptance, honesty, compassion, and fairness create tangible benefits for ourselves and society. When practiced consistently, they break cycles of resentment, foster trust, and promote cooperation.

 

[dgreen]

Yes, I think without the Bible I'd still know basic right and wrong. But I also don't think that's what the Bible is trying to do. I don't see it as a rulebook for all people throughout all time.

That's fine. I'm just trying to address your question, " but I do wonder if there's something that can be presented from the non-religious side that aims to transform us into better humans. I thought maybe this idea of understanding and appreciating could be discussed as a way to get humans to love each other more and care for this world we live in."

If we agree that many right vs wrong, good vs bad determinations can be made outside of the Bible (or any theology), then we can develop a list of attributes and behaviors that make for better humans and a better society. My guiding principle would be the outcomes of our behaviors. For example, I feel better when I forgive. I feel better when I'm forgiven. I feel better when I am accepting of others. I feel better when I'm accepted. Thus forgiveness and acceptance are behaviors that I should aspire to. We can expand that personal experience to what's best for society.

If we can agree that morality is best measured by the outcomes of our individual actions, then we can build a framework for human behavior that is rooted in shared experience. Forgiveness, acceptance, honesty, compassion, and fairness create tangible benefits for ourselves and society. When practiced consistently, they break cycles of resentment, foster trust, and promote cooperation.

Thanks. I think I lost track of what we were discussing.

So how does this approach go about making that change in people? Does it rely on individuals practicing consistently? If so, how does secular society help make that happen?

 

[Captain Cranks]

I know there are many churches that include visiting other religion church's worship services as part of the confirmation process. The students may go into it with an already bias perception but they get to experience the other religions.

That's good to hear although it differs from my own experience. I remember going to my parent's adult Sunday School class when I was in college where the discussion was about cults. Buddhism was identified by the class as a cult.

 

[Captain Cranks]

So how does this approach go about making that change in people? Does it rely on individuals practicing consistently? If so, how does secular society help make that happen?

Admittedly, this is where the secular movement is lacking. While there are atheist and humanist churches, they're few and far between.

That said, you prompted me to see if there's anything around me and to my surprise there's a Unitarian church down the street. UU Humanist of Tampa

I'll also add that while Buddism is considered a religion, it's more of a philosophy which teaches great values without the need for a deity.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Yes, I think without the Bible I'd still know basic right and wrong. But I also don't think that's what the Bible is trying to do. I don't see it as a rulebook for all people throughout all time.

That's fine. I'm just trying to address your question, " but I do wonder if there's something that can be presented from the non-religious side that aims to transform us into better humans. I thought maybe this idea of understanding and appreciating could be discussed as a way to get humans to love each other more and care for this world we live in."

If we agree that many right vs wrong, good vs bad determinations can be made outside of the Bible (or any theology), then we can develop a list of attributes and behaviors that make for better humans and a better society. My guiding principle would be the outcomes of our behaviors. For example, I feel better when I forgive. I feel better when I'm forgiven. I feel better when I am accepting of others. I feel better when I'm accepted. Thus forgiveness and acceptance are behaviors that I should aspire to. We can expand that personal experience to what's best for society.

If we can agree that morality is best measured by the outcomes of our individual actions, then we can build a framework for human behavior that is rooted in shared experience. Forgiveness, acceptance, honesty, compassion, and fairness create tangible benefits for ourselves and society. When practiced consistently, they break cycles of resentment, foster trust, and promote cooperation.

Thanks. I think I lost track of what we were discussing.

So how does this approach go about making that change in people? Does it rely on individuals practicing consistently? If so, how does secular society help make that happen?

Here's the UU's principles. How do you feel about them?

Our Seven UU Principles:

1st Principle: The inherent worth and dignity of every person.

2nd Principle: Justice, equity, and compassion in human relations.

3rd Principle: Acceptance of one another and encouragement of spiritual growth in our congregations.

4th Principle: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning.

5th Principle: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large.

6th Principle: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all.

7th Principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

 

[dgreen]

I know there are many churches that include visiting other religion church's worship services as part of the confirmation process. The students may go into it with an already bias perception but they get to experience the other religions.

That's good to hear although it differs from my own experience. I remember going to my parent's adult Sunday School class when I was in college where the discussion was about cults. Buddhism was identified by the class as a cult.

I remember being in adult classes at my church where other religions would be discussed. The teacher would say, "They believe X" and then a bunch of people would laugh. And I'd think, "You realize we believe a man rose from the dead? And I'm guessing many of you probably believe there was literally a snake talking to the only two humans on earth about 6000 years ago."

 

[dgreen]

Yes, I think without the Bible I'd still know basic right and wrong. But I also don't think that's what the Bible is trying to do. I don't see it as a rulebook for all people throughout all time.

That's fine. I'm just trying to address your question, " but I do wonder if there's something that can be presented from the non-religious side that aims to transform us into better humans. I thought maybe this idea of understanding and appreciating could be discussed as a way to get humans to love each other more and care for this world we live in."

If we agree that many right vs wrong, good vs bad determinations can be made outside of the Bible (or any theology), then we can develop a list of attributes and behaviors that make for better humans and a better society. My guiding principle would be the outcomes of our behaviors. For example, I feel better when I forgive. I feel better when I'm forgiven. I feel better when I am accepting of others. I feel better when I'm accepted. Thus forgiveness and acceptance are behaviors that I should aspire to. We can expand that personal experience to what's best for society.

If we can agree that morality is best measured by the outcomes of our individual actions, then we can build a framework for human behavior that is rooted in shared experience. Forgiveness, acceptance, honesty, compassion, and fairness create tangible benefits for ourselves and society. When practiced consistently, they break cycles of resentment, foster trust, and promote cooperation.

Thanks. I think I lost track of what we were discussing.

So how does this approach go about making that change in people? Does it rely on individuals practicing consistently? If so, how does secular society help make that happen?

Here's the UU's principles. How do you feel about them?

Our Seven UU Principles:

1st Principle: The inherent worth and dignity of every person.

2nd Principle: Justice, equity, and compassion in human relations.

3rd Principle: Acceptance of one another and encouragement of spiritual growth in our congregations.

4th Principle: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning.

5th Principle: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large.

6th Principle: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all.

7th Principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

I don't know what some of them mean (ok, maybe just #7), but overall sounds like nice principles. The focus on democracy is interesting.

A big part of what should be the story Christians tell is God's mission to repair the world and his desire to partner with us in doing that. The 6th principle might be similar to the idea of repairing the world (tikkun olam in Judaism), so it's nice to see that.

BTW, I recently stumbled upon Jason Staples. He was student of Bart Ehrman. (Staples has guest blogged on Ehrman's blog. Pretty sure you've mentioned reading Ehrman, but I could be wrong.) Here's a 40-minute sermon where he hits on the Christian answer to my question above about how do people change. Short answer: God's Spirit dwelling in us changes us into the type of people we're supposed to be.

 

[massraider]

I remember going to my parent's adult Sunday School class when I was in college where the discussion was about cults. Buddhism was identified by the class as a cult

The church i grew up in was pretty mainstream, no one would call them extreme.

And in that church, we had traveling speakers that would point out all the OBVIOUS Satanism in rock music. KISS were dedicated servers of the dark lord, that wasn't even debatable.

Faith healing was considered real, I don't remember anyone warning us about scammers.

And I must have missed the day in church when they admitted the whole Satan in popular music thing was false.

 

[Paddington]

If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven

It's not possible to doubt whether or not I'm going to a fictitious place.

I also don't have doubts about whether or not I'll ever go to Narnia, Westeros or the Upside Down since those are also fictitious locations.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was an actual, historical person?

 

[Paddington]

Dude I’m all for what you’re preaching but don’t you already have a thread?

Multiple.

I can bearly keep up with them.

They have all been closed

 

[Paddington]

I don't think some religious folks understand how implicitly offensive their calling to "save" the rest of us is. Many of us have a set of values and beliefs that we feel comfortable with and confident in. When those values or beliefs are different than that of the religious person, we're told we're lost or missing something in our lives. Implicit in that is that our beliefs are wrong and should change.

Let's flip Paddington's post on its head to illustrate my point. Imagine if I routinely started a thread titled "A Return to Reality". In it I describe how religious people's sense of truth has been clouded by their indoctrination in a flawed, fictional belief system. I then lay out steps for them to emerge from their deception and see things for how they truly are, the result of which will be a much better understanding of our existence and appreciation for our life here on earth.

Would that land on religious people as attempting to have a civil discussion? My guess is it would feel more as an attack on their beliefs.

But you weren't forced to click on this thread if you don't want to. Simply move on to a different discussion. Others are still free to discuss it if they want.

 

[Paddington]

I don't think some religious folks understand how implicitly offensive their calling to "save" the rest of us are. Many of us have a set of values and beliefs that we feel comfortable with and confident in. When those values or beliefs are different than that of the religious person, we're told we're lost or missing something in our lives. Implicit in that is that our beliefs are wrong and should change.

Let's flip Paddington's post on its head to illustrate my point. Imagine if I routinely started a thread titled "A Return to Reality". In it I describe how religious people's sense of truth has been clouded by their indoctrination in a flawed, fictional belief system. I then lay out steps for them to emerge from their deception and see things for how they truly are, the result of which will be a much better understanding of our existence and appreciation for our life here on earth.

Would that land on religious people as attempting to have a civil discussion? My guess is it would feel more as an attack on their beliefs.

Great post. My thoughts on religion threads here is similar to girls in yoga pants. Plenty of other places on the internet for that, I don’t need to see it here

When I see threads like this pop up it feels like when I get a knock on the door by someone peddling their religion (or trying to sell me siding or cable TV).

Sure I don’t have to answer, but I think similar to politics it’s best to just not allow that kind of stuff around here

Then don't answer the door, aka click on the thread.

 

[Zow]

I'm not a guy that gets in the weeds and argues, nothing against it, just not my thing. I haven't read all the responses and don't plan to (I know where these things usually end up unfortunately) but I do support the thread and the notion of the salvation of souls, so I'll just add my own prayer if anyone want to pray it with me. If not that's okay too. We can agree to disagree without hatred or anger towards one another and without making fun of each other's beliefs or non-beliefs.

Linkage

Prayer for the Salvation of the World.​

Father, hear our prayers for the salvation of the world. Grant Mercy to all souls that turned away from You. Open their hearts and minds with Your light.
Gather Your children from the east and the west, from the north and the south.

Have mercy O God on those who do not know You. Bring them out of darkness into Your light. You are our saving God Who leads us in our salvation. Protect us from evil.
Bless and praise You O Lord, hear our prayers and answer us. You, our Savior, are the hope of all the ends of the Earth and the distant seas. May Your way be known upon Earth; among all nations Your salvation.

We put the world in Your hands; fill us with Your love. Grant us peace through Christ, our Lord.

Amen


Peace everyone!

You mean save us from the eternal damnation H/he created and chooses to send us when we don't do exactly what we want within H/his rules despite giving us the ability to exercise free will and critical thinking meaning much of us may deduce in good faith not to follow said rules?

If so, such a nice guy, that G/god.

This is a bit beyond and also misstates the Christian perspective in several key ways:

• He created free will. The damnation is separation from Him, which mankind chose. The good faith you mentioned is in operation, but it must come with sincerity of heart and a commitment to a well formed conscience.
• The starting point for all humans born today is estrangement from Him, and He is constantly working to bring us to union with Him. That becomes eternal if we never become reconciled. He doesn't "choose" to send us anywhere any more than the wind "chooses" not to move us when we choose to stand still and not be moved by it.
• The way we become reconciled with Him is to turn our hearts to Him and let Him work in us. What you refer to as rules are most likely a misunderstanding of how that works - not necessarily on your part but on the part of those who preach it or put it into practice.

Did God create damnation?

 

[Paddington]

I don't think some religious folks understand how implicitly offensive their calling to "save" the rest of us are. Many of us have a set of values and beliefs that we feel comfortable with and confident in. When those values or beliefs are different than that of the religious person, we're told we're lost or missing something in our lives. Implicit in that is that our beliefs are wrong and should change.

Let's flip Paddington's post on its head to illustrate my point. Imagine if I routinely started a thread titled "A Return to Reality". In it I describe how religious people's sense of truth has been clouded by their indoctrination in a flawed, fictional belief system. I then lay out steps for them to emerge from their deception and see things for how they truly are, the result of which will be a much better understanding of our existence and appreciation for our life here on earth.

Would that land on religious people as attempting to have a civil discussion? My guess is it would feel more as an attack on their beliefs.

I don't find Paddington to be so much offensive but, instead, incredibly arrogant to think that one human has all the answers to very difficult questions and others don't.

Of course, the counterpoint to mine is that if a person like Paddington truly believes that God is that wretched that God would send us to eternal damnation simply for a human choosing in good faith not to follow God's narrow rules, then it could be perceived as a kind thing whereby he is trying to help others out to avoid to wrath of a certainly vengeful, spiteful God.

I believe what the Bible says about these things. Jesus believed the Bible amd expected us to believe it, why wouldn't I?

 

[Paddington]

Some of the stories in here remind me that I think we expose children to religion at far too young of an age

Not sure how you could realistically enforce it but I’d love to see some legislation passed that limits exposure until kids are 13+ or 18+ (similar to movies, social media, porn, etc)

Would also be nice if parents exposed children to other religions than their own so kids would know they have alternate paths to follow

Unfortunately I think far too many people end up blindly following their parents religion just because that’s all they know and all they have known (I mean some of these kids are taken to church before they can even walk).

I realize this is likely to be an unpopular opinion but I think it would do more good than harm to our society

@fatness Well, I said " I am struggling to think of an example that secularists want to control that Christians don't". Of course, Dan admits this is an unpopular opinion and I'd assume most secularists would disagree with forcing this on religious families, although I wouldn't be surprised if many secularists are sympathetic to the sentiment.

I’m looking at it from the perspective that so many laws we have in this country are ultimately driven by religious morality

Marijuana and sports gambling are only now becoming decriminalized at a state level

Abortion rights took a step backwards

Assisted suicide is still taboo

I just think if we had less people indoctrinated at such a young age there’d be a different attitude with some of this stuff

How about this for an example. If I told my kids at a young age it was acceptable to eat cats and dogs, they’d grow up eating cats and dogs (and there is really nothing inherently wrong with eating cats and dogs vs cows and chickens, but culturally we decided to draw a line there). Now if as teenagers i suddenly brought home dog and cat meat for dinner, I think they would likely not be so supportive of eating it

Make sense?

Personal.views dictate those things no matter what persuasion you are from

 

[Northern Voice]

Some of the stories in here remind me that I think we expose children to religion at far too young of an age

Not sure how you could realistically enforce it but I’d love to see some legislation passed that limits exposure until kids are 13+ or 18+ (similar to movies, social media, porn, etc)

Would also be nice if parents exposed children to other religions than their own so kids would know they have alternate paths to follow

Unfortunately I think far too many people end up blindly following their parents religion just because that’s all they know and all they have known (I mean some of these kids are taken to church before they can even walk).

I realize this is likely to be an unpopular opinion but I think it would do more good than harm to our society

@fatness Well, I said " I am struggling to think of an example that secularists want to control that Christians don't". Of course, Dan admits this is an unpopular opinion and I'd assume most secularists would disagree with forcing this on religious families, although I wouldn't be surprised if many secularists are sympathetic to the sentiment.

I’m looking at it from the perspective that so many laws we have in this country are ultimately driven by religious morality

Marijuana and sports gambling are only now becoming decriminalized at a state level

Abortion rights took a step backwards

Assisted suicide is still taboo

I just think if we had less people indoctrinated at such a young age there’d be a different attitude with some of this stuff

How about this for an example. If I told my kids at a young age it was acceptable to eat cats and dogs, they’d grow up eating cats and dogs (and there is really nothing inherently wrong with eating cats and dogs vs cows and chickens, but culturally we decided to draw a line there). Now if as teenagers i suddenly brought home dog and cat meat for dinner, I think they would likely not be so supportive of eating it

Make sense?

Personal.views dictate those things no matter what persuasion you are from

They're not naturally learned personal views though, they're indoctrinated views.

Outside the context of religion, if someone came to you and said they were worshipping a theoretical being who rose from the dead 2000 years ago and told you to behave a certain way, the obvious deduction would be mental illness.

 

[ChiefD]

Then don't answer the door, aka click on the thread.

Do you believe that gay couples should be allowed to marry?

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

He created free will

I often hear this, but i wonder how true it really is. I don't think we're like a marionette controlled by outside forces, but i wonder about things like a cycle of abuse and what that means for free will. An AI search has this to say about the cycle of abuse in children and i have to wonder how much free will some of them really have.

"The "cycle of abuse" in the context of childhood trauma refers to the intergenerational transmission of abuse, where individuals who experienced maltreatment as children may repeat these patterns in their own adult relationships, becoming either abusers or attracting abusive relationships, which are often characterized by phases of tension-building, acute violence, and reconciliation. Childhood trauma, such as physical, emotional, or sexual abuse and neglect, can increase the risk of developing mental health conditions, substance use disorders, and experiencing relationship difficulties as an adult, though it does not guarantee these outcomes. Breaking this cycle involves gaining awareness of the problem, receiving support, and engaging in interventions to change these learned
behaviors and foster healthy relationships."

The damnation is separation from Him, which mankind chose.

I struggle with this point aswell. Who chose? 2000 years ago a decision was made for me? I would be interested to hear what that looked like and why we still have to pay such a high price for decisions made by what would have been an isolated population in comparison to the entire population of the world and all the other cultures before, during, and after. Or is this a reference to Adam and Eve in the garden of eden?

 

[Mitchie]

I don't think some religious folks understand how implicitly offensive their calling to "save" the rest of us is. Many of us have a set of values and beliefs that we feel comfortable with and confident in. When those values or beliefs are different than that of the religious person, we're told we're lost or missing something in our lives. Implicit in that is that our beliefs are wrong and should change.

Let's flip Paddington's post on its head to illustrate my point. Imagine if I routinely started a thread titled "A Return to Reality". In it I describe how religious people's sense of truth has been clouded by their indoctrination in a flawed, fictional belief system. I then lay out steps for them to emerge from their deception and see things for how they truly are, the result of which will be a much better understanding of our existence and appreciation for our life here on earth.

Would that land on religious people as attempting to have a civil discussion? My guess is it would feel more as an attack on their beliefs.

But you weren't forced to click on this thread if you don't want to. Simply move on to a different discussion. Others are still free to discuss it if they want.

I guess this is true technically but think his point is still a good one. People would get offended if the script was flipped.

 

[massraider]

Then don't answer the door, aka click on the thread

Sorry, "don't read the thread if you don't like it" doesn't fly here. We have hundreds of locked threads to prove it.

You would know that if you were a regular contributor, rather than a copy/paste spammer.

Do you believe that gay couples should be allowed to marry?

It says it's an abomination in the Bible, so why would Paddington think otherwise?

Of course, he should speak for himself, I am sure he is dying to clue everyone in on homosexuals.


How about a bit of Christopher Hitchens as a palate cleanser??

 

[Captain Cranks]

But you weren't forced to click on this thread if you don't want to. Simply move on to a different discussion. Others are still free to discuss it if they want.

Where did I say you shouldn't post or it shouldn't be discussed? I'm expressing my reaction. You can either ignore it or show some consideration to the thoughts I expressed. WWJD?

 

[Captain Cranks]

I often hear this, but i wonder how true it really is. I don't think we're like a marionette controlled by outside forces, but i wonder about things like a cycle of abuse and what that means for free will. An AI search has this to say about the cycle of abuse in children and i have to wonder how much free will some of them really have.

"The "cycle of abuse" in the context of childhood trauma refers to the intergenerational transmission of abuse, where individuals who experienced maltreatment as children may repeat these patterns in their own adult relationships, becoming either abusers or attracting abusive relationships, which are often characterized by phases of tension-building, acute violence, and reconciliation. Childhood trauma, such as physical, emotional, or sexual abuse and neglect, can increase the risk of developing mental health conditions, substance use disorders, and experiencing relationship difficulties as an adult, though it does not guarantee these outcomes. Breaking this cycle involves gaining awareness of the problem, receiving support, and engaging in interventions to change these learned
behaviors and foster healthy relationships."

I'm of the opinion we don't have free will. Rather, we respond to stimuli in the same way any living organism responds, albeit in a far more complex manner. Our responses are a result of genetics and experiences, which is why, in your example, abused children are more likely to abuse others.

 

[Northern Voice]

Then don't answer the door, aka click on the thread

Sorry, "don't read the thread if you don't like it" doesn't fly here. We have hundreds of locked threads to prove it.

You would know that if you were a regular contributor, rather than a copy/paste spammer.

Wow. I didn't realize this. It's their entire post history.

Paddington

forums.footballguys.com

This is yet another feather in the cap of "there's no way this would fly here if it was any other topic". It's literally all religious spam.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Then don't answer the door, aka click on the thread

Sorry, "don't read the thread if you don't like it" doesn't fly here. We have hundreds of locked threads to prove it.

You would know that if you were a regular contributor, rather than a copy/paste spammer.

Wow. I didn't realize this. It's their entire post history.

Paddington

forums.footballguys.com

This is yet another feather in the cap of "there's no way this would fly here if it was any other topic". It's literally all religious spam.

That's been addressed and why I told him to stop and not do the copy paste.

 

[Joe Bryant]

We've had a good discussion here for a few pages. Thanks for that and thanks to folks for keeping it civil.

 

[Psychopav]

I'm not a guy that gets in the weeds and argues, nothing against it, just not my thing. I haven't read all the responses and don't plan to (I know where these things usually end up unfortunately) but I do support the thread and the notion of the salvation of souls, so I'll just add my own prayer if anyone want to pray it with me. If not that's okay too. We can agree to disagree without hatred or anger towards one another and without making fun of each other's beliefs or non-beliefs.

Linkage

Prayer for the Salvation of the World.​

Father, hear our prayers for the salvation of the world. Grant Mercy to all souls that turned away from You. Open their hearts and minds with Your light.
Gather Your children from the east and the west, from the north and the south.

Have mercy O God on those who do not know You. Bring them out of darkness into Your light. You are our saving God Who leads us in our salvation. Protect us from evil.
Bless and praise You O Lord, hear our prayers and answer us. You, our Savior, are the hope of all the ends of the Earth and the distant seas. May Your way be known upon Earth; among all nations Your salvation.

We put the world in Your hands; fill us with Your love. Grant us peace through Christ, our Lord.

Amen


Peace everyone!

You mean save us from the eternal damnation H/he created and chooses to send us when we don't do exactly what we want within H/his rules despite giving us the ability to exercise free will and critical thinking meaning much of us may deduce in good faith not to follow said rules?

If so, such a nice guy, that G/god.

This is a bit beyond and also misstates the Christian perspective in several key ways:

• He created free will. The damnation is separation from Him, which mankind chose. The good faith you mentioned is in operation, but it must come with sincerity of heart and a commitment to a well formed conscience.
• The starting point for all humans born today is estrangement from Him, and He is constantly working to bring us to union with Him. That becomes eternal if we never become reconciled. He doesn't "choose" to send us anywhere any more than the wind "chooses" not to move us when we choose to stand still and not be moved by it.
• The way we become reconciled with Him is to turn our hearts to Him and let Him work in us. What you refer to as rules are most likely a misunderstanding of how that works - not necessarily on your part but on the part of those who preach it or put it into practice.

Did God create damnation?

He created free will

 

[Psychopav]

Some of the stories in here remind me that I think we expose children to religion at far too young of an age

Not sure how you could realistically enforce it but I’d love to see some legislation passed that limits exposure until kids are 13+ or 18+ (similar to movies, social media, porn, etc)

Would also be nice if parents exposed children to other religions than their own so kids would know they have alternate paths to follow

Unfortunately I think far too many people end up blindly following their parents religion just because that’s all they know and all they have known (I mean some of these kids are taken to church before they can even walk).

I realize this is likely to be an unpopular opinion but I think it would do more good than harm to our society

@fatness Well, I said " I am struggling to think of an example that secularists want to control that Christians don't". Of course, Dan admits this is an unpopular opinion and I'd assume most secularists would disagree with forcing this on religious families, although I wouldn't be surprised if many secularists are sympathetic to the sentiment.

I’m looking at it from the perspective that so many laws we have in this country are ultimately driven by religious morality

Marijuana and sports gambling are only now becoming decriminalized at a state level

Abortion rights took a step backwards

Assisted suicide is still taboo

I just think if we had less people indoctrinated at such a young age there’d be a different attitude with some of this stuff

How about this for an example. If I told my kids at a young age it was acceptable to eat cats and dogs, they’d grow up eating cats and dogs (and there is really nothing inherently wrong with eating cats and dogs vs cows and chickens, but culturally we decided to draw a line there). Now if as teenagers i suddenly brought home dog and cat meat for dinner, I think they would likely not be so supportive of eating it

Make sense?

Personal.views dictate those things no matter what persuasion you are from

They're not naturally learned personal views though, they're indoctrinated views.

Outside the context of religion, if someone came to you and said they were worshipping a theoretical being who rose from the dead 2000 years ago and told you to behave a certain way, the obvious deduction would be mental illness.

That's true.

I often hear this, but i wonder how true it really is. I don't think we're like a marionette controlled by outside forces, but i wonder about things like a cycle of abuse and what that means for free will. An AI search has this to say about the cycle of abuse in children and i have to wonder how much free will some of them really have.

"The "cycle of abuse" in the context of childhood trauma refers to the intergenerational transmission of abuse, where individuals who experienced maltreatment as children may repeat these patterns in their own adult relationships, becoming either abusers or attracting abusive relationships, which are often characterized by phases of tension-building, acute violence, and reconciliation. Childhood trauma, such as physical, emotional, or sexual abuse and neglect, can increase the risk of developing mental health conditions, substance use disorders, and experiencing relationship difficulties as an adult, though it does not guarantee these outcomes. Breaking this cycle involves gaining awareness of the problem, receiving support, and engaging in interventions to change these learned
behaviors and foster healthy relationships."

I'm of the opinion we don't have free will. Rather, we respond to stimuli in the same way any living organism responds, albeit in a far more complex manner. Our responses are a result of genetics and experiences, which is why, in your example, abused children are more likely to abuse others.

Where does free will (or the lack of it really) fit within your decision to engage in this thread? I'm sincerely curious.

 

[Psychopav]

The damnation is separation from Him, which mankind chose.

I struggle with this point aswell. Who chose? 2000 years ago a decision was made for me? I would be interested to hear what that looked like and why we still have to pay such a high price for decisions made by what would have been an isolated population in comparison to the entire population of the world and all the other cultures before, during, and after. Or is this a reference to Adam and Eve in the garden of eden?

This is a great question and one that I think Christians are all called to struggle with. Here's some of what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say on the topic:

Paragraph 403
Based on the teachings of St. Paul, the Church asserts that human suffering, inclination to evil, and death are linked to Adam's sin. This original sin, described as the "death of the soul," is transmitted to all people from birth. Consequently, the Church practices infant baptism for the remission of sins, even for those who have not committed personal sin.

Paragraph 404
The transmission of Adam's sin to all his descendants is understood through the "unity of the human race," where all are implicated in Adam's sin just as all are implicated in Christ's justice. While the transmission is a mystery, Revelation teaches that Adam received original holiness and justice for all of human nature. By sinning, Adam and Eve transmitted human nature in a fallen state, deprived of original holiness and justice. Original sin is therefore considered "sin" in an analogical sense – it is "contracted" rather than "committed," a state rather than an act.

Paragraph 405
While original sin is unique to each individual, it is not a personal fault of Adam's descendants. It is a lack of original holiness and justice, though human nature is not completely corrupted. Human nature is weakened, subject to ignorance, suffering, and death, and prone to sin, an inclination known as "concupiscence". Baptism removes original sin through Christ's grace and reorients individuals toward God, but the weakened nature and inclination to evil remain, calling for ongoing spiritual struggle.

There are a few key points to my mind:

•Origin sin is a mystery, which means it cannot be fully understood by us at least in our present age. This calls to my mind the importance of revealed truth and by extension the importance of obedience in exercising our faith.
•It's inherited just like our ability to be redeemed. This prompts me to consider if natural law can be similarly considered to be inherited. Through a Christian lens there may be something to this thought
It's interesting and I want to think further on this.
•It's not particular to an individual. This means while we are all naturally inclined to sin (concupiscence) it does not necessarily condemn us. For one example, as Catholics we are free to believe in a state called "limbo". For another, as Catholics we believe that so-called damnation (the eternal separation from God) is a consequence of intentional, fully understood, turning away from God at the time of death. (This can be explored further with a google search of the term mortal sin. Be sure to include the Catechism of the Catholic Church in your query if you're looking for the Church's official teaching vs someone's opinion.)

It's worth noting here that the Catholic Church asserts many people who have gone before us and are now in the divine presence of God. It specifically does not make a similar claim that there is anyone in Hell. There are even theologians who have argued that no one is in Hell.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Where does free will (or the lack of it really) fit within your decision to engage in this thread? I'm sincerely curious.

There was no actual decision. There's an illusion of a decision, but in reality I'm simply responding to stimuli in a manner that's been determined by a culmination of genetics and experiences. Specifically, I played fantasy football so that led me to these forums. I grew up in a Christian home and have an interest in religious history so I am attracted to conversations like this.

To put it crudely, we're all just highly complex billiard balls bouncing off each other. If you knew the physics behind our interactions, you'd be able to forecast which cushion or ball you'd hit next. Everything else in the universe operates this way. I don't think humans are any different.

 

[Psychopav]

Where does free will (or the lack of it really) fit within your decision to engage in this thread? I'm sincerely curious.

There was no actual decision. There's an illusion of a decision, but in reality I'm simply responding to stimuli in a manner that's been determined by a culmination of genetics and experiences. Specifically, I played fantasy football so that led me to these forums. I grew up in a Christian home and have an interest in religious history so I am attracted to conversations like this.

To put it crudely, we're all just highly complex billiard balls bouncing off each other. If you knew the physics behind our interactions, you'd be able to forecast which cushion or ball you'd hit next. Everything else in the universe operates this way. I don't think humans are any different.

I don't come from this worldview so please take this as genuine inquiry, not an attempt to argue or sway you from your position. I'm trying to put myself in your frame of reference to understand it better.

I have thought about this mindset in the past, and it had occurred to me that it is an oversimplification to assume that bolded bit. I certainly agree that science has improved our ability to predict outcomes as it has been studied and refined over time, but I don't think we're anywhere near a point that you describe. Where do you get your confidence that progress leads to a certainty that everything in the universe behaves this way? It seems like today especially with what we are learning about quantum mechanics and chaos theory that there are very much things we do not understand and maybe even the unpredictability is the rule in some respects.

As a person of faith, I respect the the leap of faith entailed in the idea that steady progress implies there must be a determinationalistic conclusion, but I don't expect you're talking about faith here.

 

[Zow]

I'm not a guy that gets in the weeds and argues, nothing against it, just not my thing. I haven't read all the responses and don't plan to (I know where these things usually end up unfortunately) but I do support the thread and the notion of the salvation of souls, so I'll just add my own prayer if anyone want to pray it with me. If not that's okay too. We can agree to disagree without hatred or anger towards one another and without making fun of each other's beliefs or non-beliefs.

Linkage

Prayer for the Salvation of the World.​

Father, hear our prayers for the salvation of the world. Grant Mercy to all souls that turned away from You. Open their hearts and minds with Your light.
Gather Your children from the east and the west, from the north and the south.

Have mercy O God on those who do not know You. Bring them out of darkness into Your light. You are our saving God Who leads us in our salvation. Protect us from evil.
Bless and praise You O Lord, hear our prayers and answer us. You, our Savior, are the hope of all the ends of the Earth and the distant seas. May Your way be known upon Earth; among all nations Your salvation.

We put the world in Your hands; fill us with Your love. Grant us peace through Christ, our Lord.

Amen


Peace everyone!

You mean save us from the eternal damnation H/he created and chooses to send us when we don't do exactly what we want within H/his rules despite giving us the ability to exercise free will and critical thinking meaning much of us may deduce in good faith not to follow said rules?

If so, such a nice guy, that G/god.

This is a bit beyond and also misstates the Christian perspective in several key ways:

• He created free will. The damnation is separation from Him, which mankind chose. The good faith you mentioned is in operation, but it must come with sincerity of heart and a commitment to a well formed conscience.
• The starting point for all humans born today is estrangement from Him, and He is constantly working to bring us to union with Him. That becomes eternal if we never become reconciled. He doesn't "choose" to send us anywhere any more than the wind "chooses" not to move us when we choose to stand still and not be moved by it.
• The way we become reconciled with Him is to turn our hearts to Him and let Him work in us. What you refer to as rules are most likely a misunderstanding of how that works - not necessarily on your part but on the part of those who preach it or put it into practice.

Did God create damnation?

He created free will

Okay. Did he create Hell/damnation?

 

[dgreen]

Where does free will (or the lack of it really) fit within your decision to engage in this thread? I'm sincerely curious.

There was no actual decision. There's an illusion of a decision, but in reality I'm simply responding to stimuli in a manner that's been determined by a culmination of genetics and experiences. Specifically, I played fantasy football so that led me to these forums. I grew up in a Christian home and have an interest in religious history so I am attracted to conversations like this.

To put it crudely, we're all just highly complex billiard balls bouncing off each other. If you knew the physics behind our interactions, you'd be able to forecast which cushion or ball you'd hit next. Everything else in the universe operates this way. I don't think humans are any different.

Sorry if I’m misinterpreting you, but this sounds like “because there are some things that I don’t choose then it must be true that I don’t choose anything.”

I’ve never understood the argument FOR free will to mean that I choose everything. It’s not all encompassing. But it seems the argument AGAINST free will is an all or nothing proposition.