A Prayer Of Salvation (5 Viewers)

[Navin Johnson]

Would be so curious to see what biblical Jesus thinks of humanity these days. If I had to guess he'd be in therapy moaning about out how things went so sideways. I've never seen this many Christians acting the polar opposive of what He taught. How did empathy become a four letter word for so many?

If he existed today, he would immediately be written off as too woke.

Yep. The NFLX series "Messiah" is pretty indicative of how he would be received by his own followers.

Yep. That was a pretty interesting show.

There was an outcry in social media to have the show canceled because it depicted the main character as homosexual. I thought that was a little much to try and agitate the right so I watched it to see how far it went. I didn't get any homosexual vibe from the main character and it was obvious, the real reason that the right was trying to get it canceled. As an ex-christian, I feel the way that the establishment received him was an accurate portrayal. Bummed it got canceled, but I think people don't want to stop hating the people they were taught to hate

 

[Captain Cranks]

Would be so curious to see what biblical Jesus thinks of humanity these days. If I had to guess he'd be in therapy moaning about out how things went so sideways. I've never seen this many Christians acting the polar opposive of what He taught. How did empathy become a four letter word for so many?

To put things into context, Christians have been killing other Christians since before the Council of Nicaea. I think he's used to some unsavory behavior from his peeps.

 

[Dr. Manhattan]

Would be so curious to see what biblical Jesus thinks of humanity these days. If I had to guess he'd be in therapy moaning about out how things went so sideways. I've never seen this many Christians acting the polar opposive of what He taught. How did empathy become a four letter word for so many?

I tend to think it's mostly same as day 1, right? He didn't exactly come into a perfect situation.

Well, there's one massive difference isn't there? Back then there weren't millions who claimed to be devout followers of his teachings.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I tend to think it's mostly same as day 1, right? He didn't exactly come into a perfect situation.

And come judgment day God will have lots explaining to do as to how this could possibly have been his plan. Going to be an interesting discussion explaining the method for this madness. And there is lots of madness to wade through.

Today's sermon was about faith being enough. And not really much faith is needed as this was one of the "mustard seed" gospel weeks. It included that since everything starts with God that faith is a gift. Stuff that ties this to other posts, but for this one.

The Old Testament lesson was Habakkuk 1: 1-4; 2: 1-4 where the prophet Habakkuk demands answers from God and asserts that he would "stand his ground" until he gets those answers. In the sermon this was tied to faith in that it is faith in God, faith in grace that allows the freedom to question God. That and freedom to be people of God. The gift of faith, even a tiny bit.

Now I get that we'll have some non-believers looking for God's AMA thread and some believers saying that is what they have this kind of relationship with God and endless variety in of mystery in between.

 

[dgreen]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

I’m not sure I have any expectations. It’s not something I think about.

As a kid, though, I remember being scared by the idea of eternity; even an eternity in heaven. It just freaked me out to try to fathom eternity.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

I’m not sure I have any expectations. It’s not something I think about.

As a kid, though, I remember being scared by the idea of eternity; even an eternity in heaven. It just freaked me out to try to fathom eternity.

That's certainly fair. Eternity and what it looks like would seem important to the faith and the why dedicating one's life to it would be important. Ethics and morality don't really have a role imo. As a non Christian i can have both and more without trying to appease an intelligent designer, so what's the payoff for the dedication without expectations for an afterlife?

 

[Zow]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

I’m not sure I have any expectations. It’s not something I think about.

As a kid, though, I remember being scared by the idea of eternity; even an eternity in heaven. It just freaked me out to try to fathom eternity.

The bold was definitely me as well - though it was more the fear of eternity in Hell should I die with a mortal sin on my soul without having it forgiven via Reconciliation.

I recall literally shaking in class in 7th grade, doing everything I could to not think about the girl sitting next to me (who happened to be the prettiest girl in class) in the natural ways that a 7th grader going through puberty would, because I was so afraid that I very well may picture her naked, die in a car accident on the way home after school, and burn in Hell for a never-ending eternity. I remember, of course, picturing her naked (because when one tries so hard not to do something one inevitably fails), then desperately trying to find a priest in the school to give a confession to.

The older I get the more solace I have and am at peace with the notion that when I die probably nothing happens and I am good with that because I'll literally never know anyway.

 

[dgreen]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

I’m not sure I have any expectations. It’s not something I think about.

As a kid, though, I remember being scared by the idea of eternity; even an eternity in heaven. It just freaked me out to try to fathom eternity.

That's certainly fair. Eternity and what it looks like would seem important to the faith and the why dedicating one's life to it would be important. Ethics and morality don't really have a role imo. As a non Christian i can have both and more without trying to appease an intelligent designer, so what's the payoff for the dedication without expectations for an afterlife?

Just for clarification, I'm not saying that I don't believe in some kind of afterlife. I'm just saying I don't spend time thinking about it and I don't have expectations of what it will look like. It is important to a lot of believers, but I'm aligned with a school of thought that focuses more on this life and this world and how I might be able to help make it better for others. I guess there's a payoff in just knowing that I've done my part and I'm happy to be part of that mission. I certainly hope for an even bigger payoff for everything when this is all done, but it's not necessarily what drives my day-to-day.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

I’m not sure I have any expectations. It’s not something I think about.

As a kid, though, I remember being scared by the idea of eternity; even an eternity in heaven. It just freaked me out to try to fathom eternity.

That's certainly fair. Eternity and what it looks like would seem important to the faith and the why dedicating one's life to it would be important. Ethics and morality don't really have a role imo. As a non Christian i can have both and more without trying to appease an intelligent designer, so what's the payoff for the dedication without expectations for an afterlife?

Just for clarification, I'm not saying that I don't believe in some kind of afterlife. I'm just saying I don't spend time thinking about it and I don't have expectations of what it will look like. It is important to a lot of believers, but I'm aligned with a school of thought that focuses more on this life and this world and how I might be able to help make it better for others. I guess there's a payoff in just knowing that I've done my part and I'm happy to be part of that mission. I certainly hope for an even bigger payoff for everything when this is all done, but it's not necessarily what drives my day-to-day.

Yeah, i think I'm following what you're saying.

I guess my point is that you don't need to appease anyone or anything to do right and make the world a better place. I feel i do that with no accountability to anything or anyone other than myself as often as i can. I expect a Sopranos cut to black ending when my days are over and act as a good steward for the right thing without any expectation other than it being the right thing to do.

I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs, i simply don't have the sufficient information to say one way or another. I like your answer which I'm interpreting as doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do and if there's a bigger payoff that's a bonus.

When i hear salvation, heaven, saved it usually comes with an expectation of an afterlife, so I'm curious what that looks like, because there often comes sacrifice for that expectation, but I'm not sure I've ever heard an explanation for what that looks like and that would seem to be a very important factor that's mostly explained as vaguely as it can be when described. The hallmark movie view of heaven is what i typically see portrayed and expected by those in my life. Are pearly gates really what most Christians expect?

Eta. If I'm wrong and it's not a cut to black ending am i damned? Is doing right enough without belief to receive a Christian reward?

 

[dgreen]

Are pearly gates really what most Christians expect?

Probably not. My guess is most Christians don’t think too much about the specifics. But I also think there’s a ton of diversity amongst Christians so I wouldn’t be surprised if you might find quite a few who expect literal pearly gates or have some clear picture in their mind of what it might look like.

I think there’s an assumption that most Sunday morning services are focused on eternal heaven and hell…and homosexuals, of course. Yes, those churches are out there and many of you might have grown up in that church, but that hasn’t been my experience at all.

 

[Paddington]

That's not what the passage means. Yes we are to use our understand when making decisions in life unless or until:

1) God directs us to do otherwise

2) We end up in a situation that we cannot figure our way out of, that's out of our control

It is not saying to walk around blindly and don't think. Faith is about Trusting God, even when you don't understand His plan.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Are pearly gates really what most Christians expect?

Probably not. My guess is most Christians don’t think too much about the specifics. But I also think there’s a ton of diversity amongst Christians so I wouldn’t be surprised if you might find quite a few who expect literal pearly gates or have some clear picture in their mind of what it might look like.

I think there’s an assumption that most Sunday morning services are focused on eternal heaven and hell…and homosexuals, of course. Yes, those churches are out there and many of you might have grown up in that church, but that hasn’t been my experience at all.

Agreed. This has been my experience as well.

 

[Joe Bryant]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

I’m not sure I have any expectations. It’s not something I think about.

As a kid, though, I remember being scared by the idea of eternity; even an eternity in heaven. It just freaked me out to try to fathom eternity.

That's certainly fair. Eternity and what it looks like would seem important to the faith and the why dedicating one's life to it would be important. Ethics and morality don't really have a role imo. As a non Christian i can have both and more without trying to appease an intelligent designer, so what's the payoff for the dedication without expectations for an afterlife?

Just for clarification, I'm not saying that I don't believe in some kind of afterlife. I'm just saying I don't spend time thinking about it and I don't have expectations of what it will look like. It is important to a lot of believers, but I'm aligned with a school of thought that focuses more on this life and this world and how I might be able to help make it better for others. I guess there's a payoff in just knowing that I've done my part and I'm happy to be part of that mission. I certainly hope for an even bigger payoff for everything when this is all done, but it's not necessarily what drives my day-to-day.

One interesting thing from a socionomic angle I've found.

And this is purely anecdotal on my part and my experience.

I think a lot of how much time one spends thinking about heaven is related to how their life is here on Earth.

When I worked in a rural area with folks in a pretty low socioeconomic status, most of the churches there sing the older songs that often talk about heaven. "I'll Fly Away", "Beulah Land", "When We All Get To Heaven" and such.

My local church has a demographic with more income. We don't focus on those songs.

I think it's a lot to do with when you're not in a great situation here, it's more natural to look to something better.

And if your life is good here, it's easy to get complacent and not spend a lot of time thinking about heaven. At least that's true in my case.

I'll also add that this is purely my opinion and I've never heard others in person talk about this much at all. Just an observation.

And honestly, something to be embarrassed about for me as it demonstrates complacency.

 

[dgreen]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

I’m not sure I have any expectations. It’s not something I think about.

As a kid, though, I remember being scared by the idea of eternity; even an eternity in heaven. It just freaked me out to try to fathom eternity.

That's certainly fair. Eternity and what it looks like would seem important to the faith and the why dedicating one's life to it would be important. Ethics and morality don't really have a role imo. As a non Christian i can have both and more without trying to appease an intelligent designer, so what's the payoff for the dedication without expectations for an afterlife?

Just for clarification, I'm not saying that I don't believe in some kind of afterlife. I'm just saying I don't spend time thinking about it and I don't have expectations of what it will look like. It is important to a lot of believers, but I'm aligned with a school of thought that focuses more on this life and this world and how I might be able to help make it better for others. I guess there's a payoff in just knowing that I've done my part and I'm happy to be part of that mission. I certainly hope for an even bigger payoff for everything when this is all done, but it's not necessarily what drives my day-to-day.

One interesting thing from a socionomic angle I've found.

And this is purely anecdotal on my part and my experience.

I think a lot of how much time one spends thinking about heaven is related to how their life is here on Earth.

When I worked in a rural area with folks in a pretty low socioeconomic status, most of the churches there sing the older songs that often talk about heaven. "I'll Fly Away", "Beulah Land", "When We All Get To Heaven" and such.

My local church has a demographic with more income. We don't focus on those songs.

I think it's a lot to do with when you're not in a great situation here, it's more natural to look to something better.

And if your life is good here, it's easy to get complacent and not spend a lot of time thinking about heaven. At least that's true in my case.

I'll also add that this is purely my opinion and I've never heard others in person talk about this much at all. Just an observation.

And honestly, something to be embarrassed about for me as it demonstrates complacency.

I think that makes sense. The Biblical authors and original audiences were mostly oppressed people. They were writing from a perspective that can be hard for many of us to really connect with.

 

[Gally]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

I saw this really good documentary on the afterlife. It's called The Good Place. It's worth a watch. You might find it really helpful.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

I saw this really good documentary on the afterlife. It's called The Good Place. It's worth a watch. You might find it really helpful.

Ted Danson makes everything better, even the afterlife.

 

[dkp993]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

I saw this really good documentary on the afterlife. It's called The Good Place. It's worth a watch. You might find it really helpful.

Ted Danson makes everything better, even the afterlife.

I preferred Albert Brooks Defending Your Life.

 

[Captain Cranks]

All this talk about getting to heaven, but what does that actually look like when you get there? Eternity is a long time and human nature seems malcontent for even 80 years to be happy with what we've got. For all the sacrifice and persistence i would imagine there's a pretty clear expectation of what happens when you get there. Anything for eternity seems less like heaven and more like hell from what I've seen of human nature.

Follow up to that is, is there a shift in consciousness from what we experience here on earth or do we remain exactly the same flaws and all?

Genuinely curious to hear what practicing Christians expect eternity to look like and how such flawed beings as humans can expect to find contentment in eternity.

I’m not sure I have any expectations. It’s not something I think about.

As a kid, though, I remember being scared by the idea of eternity; even an eternity in heaven. It just freaked me out to try to fathom eternity.

That's certainly fair. Eternity and what it looks like would seem important to the faith and the why dedicating one's life to it would be important. Ethics and morality don't really have a role imo. As a non Christian i can have both and more without trying to appease an intelligent designer, so what's the payoff for the dedication without expectations for an afterlife?

Just for clarification, I'm not saying that I don't believe in some kind of afterlife. I'm just saying I don't spend time thinking about it and I don't have expectations of what it will look like. It is important to a lot of believers, but I'm aligned with a school of thought that focuses more on this life and this world and how I might be able to help make it better for others. I guess there's a payoff in just knowing that I've done my part and I'm happy to be part of that mission. I certainly hope for an even bigger payoff for everything when this is all done, but it's not necessarily what drives my day-to-day.

Yeah, i think I'm following what you're saying.

I guess my point is that you don't need to appease anyone or anything to do right and make the world a better place. I feel i do that with no accountability to anything or anyone other than myself as often as i can. I expect a Sopranos cut to black ending when my days are over and act as a good steward for the right thing without any expectation other than it being the right thing to do.

I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs, i simply don't have the sufficient information to say one way or another. I like your answer which I'm interpreting as doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do and if there's a bigger payoff that's a bonus.

When i hear salvation, heaven, saved it usually comes with an expectation of an afterlife, so I'm curious what that looks like, because there often comes sacrifice for that expectation, but I'm not sure I've ever heard an explanation for what that looks like and that would seem to be a very important factor that's mostly explained as vaguely as it can be when described. The hallmark movie view of heaven is what i typically see portrayed and expected by those in my life. Are pearly gates really what most Christians expect?

Eta. If I'm wrong and it's not a cut to black ending am i damned? Is doing right enough without belief to receive a Christian reward?

Hopefully God has figured out a way to make things less awkward for my Dad who remarried a few years after my mother passed away from cancer. Otherwise heaven is gonna be hell.

 

[Psychopav]

In the Catechism (starting with paragraph 123), the Catholic Church talks about Heaven this way:

1023 Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face:

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.

1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

1025 To live in heaven is "to be with Christ." the elect live "in Christ," but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.

1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. the life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father's house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him."

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man's immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. the Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory "the beatific vision":

How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God's friends.

1029 In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God's will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him "they shall reign for ever and ever."

It had already described the prominence of the beautific vision in the role of faith, starting with paragraph 161:

The necessity of faith

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please (God) " and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"]

Perseverance in faith

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith." To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

Faith - the beginning of eternal life

163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God "face to face", "as he is". So faith is already the beginning of eternal life: When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.

164 Now, however, "we walk by faith, not by sight"; we perceive God as "in a mirror, dimly" and only "in part". Even though enlightened by him in whom it believes, faith is often lived in darkness and can be put to the test. the world we live in often seems very far from the one promised us by faith. Our experiences of evil and suffering, injustice and death, seem to contradict the Good News; they can shake our faith and become a temptation against it.

165 It is then we must turn to the witnesses of faith: to Abraham, who "in hope... believed against hope"; to the Virgin Mary, who, in "her pilgrimage of faith", walked into the "night of faith" in sharing the darkness of her son's suffering and death; and to so many others: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith."

CS Lewis has one particular passage that really conveyed this idea of an infinite heaven in a relatable and exciting way, and that is at the end of The Last Battle. Summing up: Further up and further in! Much later, in Letters to Malcolm, he gives one example of what Heaven might be like but (more importantly to me anyway) he states that while he is certain that he is not entirely correct, he knows with utter certainty that the reality will be far better.

While the catechism helps explain what heaven is, these CS Lewis books opened up its potentiality. Heart faith vs. head faith, if you get my drift. And once the heart opens to one possible way that Heaven can work, it opens up much much more.

Heaven is so important to the faithful. It should not be underestimated. I agree that many do not think of heaven often; furthermore,I think it's probably true that it is good and profitable to consider heaven more often, especially as it helps to build hope.

 

[Northern Voice]

Heaven is so important to the faithful. It should not be underestimated. I agree that many do not think of heaven often; furthermore,I think it's probably true that it is good and profitable to consider heaven more often, especially as it helps to build hope.

Maybe they should have gone with the 77 virgins like that other religion that definitely isn't any more right/wrong/plausible/less plausible than Christianity.

 

[dkp993]

. I agree that many do not think of heaven often;

Simply my, possibly uninformed, opinion but I think this is the case for most Christians largely because they assume they are in already. Being they’ve been baptized (ie accepted Jesus as their savior) and know all they need to do is ask for forgiveness before they die and poof, off to heaven you go. This knowledge all being subconsciously (giving them the benefit of the doubt and not casting any aspersions). So you don’t worry about it if you’ve already got the vip invite.

 

[Paddington]

. I agree that many do not think of heaven often;

Simply my, possibly uninformed, opinion but I think this is the case for most Christians largely because they assume they are in already. Being they’ve been baptized (ie accepted Jesus as their savior) and know all they need to do is ask for forgiveness before they die and poof, off to heaven you go. This knowledge all being subconsciously (giving them the benefit of the doubt and not casting any aspersions). So you don’t worry about it if you’ve already got the vip invite.

Agreed that many Christians look at Salvation as a mere insurance policy abd don't care to progress any further. I can tell you that those who do persue a close relationship with Christ, experience the very meaning of life. He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

 

[Northern Voice]

. I agree that many do not think of heaven often;

Simply my, possibly uninformed, opinion but I think this is the case for most Christians largely because they assume they are in already. Being they’ve been baptized (ie accepted Jesus as their savior) and know all they need to do is ask for forgiveness before they die and poof, off to heaven you go. This knowledge all being subconsciously (giving them the benefit of the doubt and not casting any aspersions). So you don’t worry about it if you’ve already got the vip invite.

Agreed that many Christians look at Salvation as a mere insurance policy abd don't care to progress any further. I can tell you that those who do persue a close relationship with Christ, experience the very meaning of life. He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

Why do you have a void in your heart and no purpose?

 

[Gally]

He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

And what if you have no void and have a purpose? Then what?

 

[dkp993]

. I agree that many do not think of heaven often;

Simply my, possibly uninformed, opinion but I think this is the case for most Christians largely because they assume they are in already. Being they’ve been baptized (ie accepted Jesus as their savior) and know all they need to do is ask for forgiveness before they die and poof, off to heaven you go. This knowledge all being subconsciously (giving them the benefit of the doubt and not casting any aspersions). So you don’t worry about it if you’ve already got the vip invite.

Agreed that many Christians look at Salvation as a mere insurance policy abd don't care to progress any further. I can tell you that those who do persue a close relationship with Christ, experience the very meaning of life. He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

I feel sad for you @Paddington Maybe try some therapy?

I think the last few responses aimed at Paddington have been a bit harsh. While I don’t see eye to eye with him on much I do think it is a very normal human condition to seek purpose and fill voids in their lives, in my opinion it’s the reason organized religion was created.

My point is, his response was very reasonable, understandable and common with those who found something in their religion.

 

[Joe Bryant]

. I agree that many do not think of heaven often;

Simply my, possibly uninformed, opinion but I think this is the case for most Christians largely because they assume they are in already. Being they’ve been baptized (ie accepted Jesus as their savior) and know all they need to do is ask for forgiveness before they die and poof, off to heaven you go. This knowledge all being subconsciously (giving them the benefit of the doubt and not casting any aspersions). So you don’t worry about it if you’ve already got the vip invite.

Agreed that many Christians look at Salvation as a mere insurance policy abd don't care to progress any further. I can tell you that those who do persue a close relationship with Christ, experience the very meaning of life. He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

I feel sad for you @Paddington Maybe try some therapy?

Please be more cool to each other here than that.

 

[BassNBrew]

. I agree that many do not think of heaven often;

Simply my, possibly uninformed, opinion but I think this is the case for most Christians largely because they assume they are in already. Being they’ve been baptized (ie accepted Jesus as their savior) and know all they need to do is ask for forgiveness before they die and poof, off to heaven you go. This knowledge all being subconsciously (giving them the benefit of the doubt and not casting any aspersions). So you don’t worry about it if you’ve already got the vip invite.

Agreed that many Christians look at Salvation as a mere insurance policy abd don't care to progress any further. I can tell you that those who do persue a close relationship with Christ, experience the very meaning of life. He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

I feel sad for you @Paddington Maybe try some therapy?

Please be more cool to each other here than that.

Apologies. I stated I was sad for someone that had a void in their heart and didn't have purpose. Maybe I should have said genuinely sad for clarity. Therapy is definitely a good option for someone in that situation. I know if one of my kids said that I would be encouraging assistance.

 

[Navin Johnson]

. I agree that many do not think of heaven often;

Simply my, possibly uninformed, opinion but I think this is the case for most Christians largely because they assume they are in already. Being they’ve been baptized (ie accepted Jesus as their savior) and know all they need to do is ask for forgiveness before they die and poof, off to heaven you go. This knowledge all being subconsciously (giving them the benefit of the doubt and not casting any aspersions). So you don’t worry about it if you’ve already got the vip invite.

Agreed that many Christians look at Salvation as a mere insurance policy abd don't care to progress any further. I can tell you that those who do persue a close relationship with Christ, experience the very meaning of life. He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

I feel sad for you @Paddington Maybe try some therapy?

I think the last few responses aimed at Paddington have been a bit harsh. While I don’t see eye to eye with him on much I do think it is a very normal human condition to seek purpose and fill voids in their lives, in my opinion it’s the reason organized religion was created.

My point is, his response was very reasonable, understandable and common with those who found something in their religion.

It's the reason god was created

 

[Northern Voice]

. I agree that many do not think of heaven often;

Simply my, possibly uninformed, opinion but I think this is the case for most Christians largely because they assume they are in already. Being they’ve been baptized (ie accepted Jesus as their savior) and know all they need to do is ask for forgiveness before they die and poof, off to heaven you go. This knowledge all being subconsciously (giving them the benefit of the doubt and not casting any aspersions). So you don’t worry about it if you’ve already got the vip invite.

Agreed that many Christians look at Salvation as a mere insurance policy abd don't care to progress any further. I can tell you that those who do persue a close relationship with Christ, experience the very meaning of life. He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

I feel sad for you @Paddington Maybe try some therapy?

Please be more cool to each other here than that.

Apologies. I stated I was sad for someone that had a void in their heart and didn't have purpose. Maybe I should have said genuinely sad for clarity. Therapy is definitely a good option for someone in that situation. I know if one of my kids said that I would be encouraging assistance.

I had the same thought but didn't want to say too much. There is definitely a sadness to someone feeling their live lacks purpose and there is a void in their heart that can only be filled with something they'll never truly experience on earth.

I can see turning to the supernatural or hope for something greater beyond what we experience on earth in that situation if I felt there was something missing like that. More reason to be thankful for what I have and the joy, love and community I find every day in the living/here and now.

 

[Paddington]

He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

And what if you have no void and have a purpose? Then what?

Without God, you have no purpose, for God is the one who gives purpose. Does God give the unsaved purpose for a short time before physical death, yes. But in eternity, they waste away.

 

[Zow]

He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

And what if you have no void and have a purpose? Then what?

Without God, you have no purpose, for God is the one who gives purpose. Does God give the unsaved purpose for a short time before physical death, yes. But in eternity, they waste away.

When I used to believe in God, God was my only purpose and I felt scared and unfulfilled.

I now have multiple purposes and it is much more fulfilling.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Without God, you have no purpose, for God is the one who gives purpose. Does God give the unsaved purpose for a short time before physical death, yes. But in eternity, they waste away.

The correct sentence here is, "Without God, I'd have no purpose, for God is the one who gives me purpose."

 

[Joe Bryant]

Without God, you have no purpose, for God is the one who gives purpose. Does God give the unsaved purpose for a short time before physical death, yes. But in eternity, they waste away.

The correct sentence here is, "Without God, I'd have no purpose, for God is the one who gives me purpose."

Agreed. That's a better way to say it.

I think for all these discussions, it's a good think to add, "I believe" as a preface to our statements in general.

Or to make it personal as @Captain Cranks did above and make the statement clear this a personal belief about how you see it.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

And what if you have no void and have a purpose? Then what?

Without God, you have no purpose, for God is the one who gives purpose. Does God give the unsaved purpose for a short time before physical death, yes. But in eternity, they waste away.

Ok, this is the other side of the coin. From what I've gathered not as many Christians think about heaven as i thought, but maybe instead of salvation they might think more about damnation. What exactly does waste away for eternity look like?

This goes for anyone that would care to answer what an eternity of damnation and wasting away looks like. So to flip my previous question as to what the expectation of heaven is, what is the expectation for those that stray and end up in hell? Perhaps purgatory? What qualifies for purgatory vs hell?

 

[dkp993]

He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

And what if you have no void and have a purpose? Then what?

Without God, you have no purpose, for God is the one who gives purpose. Does God give the unsaved purpose for a short time before physical death, yes. But in eternity, they waste away.

And now you’ve lost me. But hey it was a good run, 24 whole hours….

 

[Psychopav]

He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

And what if you have no void and have a purpose? Then what?

Without God, you have no purpose, for God is the one who gives purpose. Does God give the unsaved purpose for a short time before physical death, yes. But in eternity, they waste away.

Ok, this is the other side of the coin. From what I've gathered not as many Christians think about heaven as i thought, but maybe instead of salvation they might think more about damnation. What exactly does waste away for eternity look like?

This goes for anyone that would care to answer what an eternity of damnation and wasting away looks like. So to flip my previous question as to what the expectation of heaven is, what is the expectation for those that stray and end up in hell? Perhaps purgatory? What qualifies for purgatory vs hell?

Briefly:

Heaven is full communion with God. It is eternal.
Hell is the complete absence of, or separation from God. It is eternal.

My perspective:

Two states which are not universally believed by all Christians are Purgatory and Limbo.

Purgatory is the state of purification in which souls exist after death when they are in a state of grace (i.e., open to the salvific grace of God) but not yet perfected. It could be thought of as cleansing and clothing a dirty body which is whole but not yet suitable to attend the wedding feast. All souls in Purgatory end up in Heaven. Any souls declared Saints by the Catholic Church are believed to be in Heaven (not in Purgatory). Although, like Hell, the Church is 100% silent on who, if anyone, is in Purgatory, it is a dogma of the Catholic Church (I'm not sure about the orthodox churches but I would assume they also believe in it) - that is, it is a requisite that a faithful Catholic believe in Purgatory.

Limbo is a state where souls who have never had access to salvific Grace exist after death. This includes the "Limbo of the Fathers" (where the souls of the holy ones from the OT - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. existed before the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ opened salvation to them) and what is sometimes referred to as simply "Limbo", where the souls of unbaptized infants who have passed exist. Catholics are not required to believe in Limbo as a matter of faith, they are free to believe or not as their consciences dictate. The reason that Limbo is a state where unbaptized babies and children who pass before the age of reason exist but not unbaptized adults or other believers is wrapped up in free will. No one is predestined for Hell, they choose it.

Now that I write this out, one good way of thinking about this imo is that Heaven is an outcome of God's perfect will for us. Hell is an outcome of asserting our will to separate ourselves from God's grace. The implication is that, regardless of our belief system, if we are open to the truth, pursue it continually until death, and hold ourselves accountable to being open to the idea that we might be wrong (aka forming and following our consciences), the Christian perspective gives a lot of cred to the idea that there are many paths to Heaven. At the same time, Christianity would assert that not all are the best path, which is the one that God has prepared for and opened to us all. We insist on taking our own way, and that always leads to pain - which, I think, is what Paddington is getting at when he talks about lacking meaning and purpose.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

The implication is that, regardless of our belief system, if we are open to the truth, pursue it continually until death, and hold ourselves accountable to being open to the idea that we might be wrong (aka forming and following our consciences), the Christian perspective gives a lot of cred to the idea that there are many paths to Heaven.

So from this perspective it's not required that a person believe in Christianity (Jesus) so much as it's required to live a moral and ethical life to receive full communion with god?

This is something that I've been at odds with in my life. I was raised Catholic and my impression was that no matter how well you live it's the requirement that you accept Jesus and all your sins, regardless of severity will be forgiven, but if you don't accept Jesus (not an outright rejection, but inability to have blind faith) regardless of how well you live and however many you may help along the way, that is an unforgivable sin.

 

[Psychopav]

The implication is that, regardless of our belief system, if we are open to the truth, pursue it continually until death, and hold ourselves accountable to being open to the idea that we might be wrong (aka forming and following our consciences), the Christian perspective gives a lot of cred to the idea that there are many paths to Heaven.

So from this perspective it's not required that a person believe in Christianity (Jesus) so much as it's required to live a moral and ethical life to receive full communion with god?

This is something that I've been at odds with in my life. I was raised Catholic and my impression was that no matter how well you live it's the requirement that you accept Jesus and all your sins, regardless of severity will be forgiven, but if you don't accept Jesus (not an outright rejection, but inability to have blind faith) regardless of how well you live and however many you may help along the way, that is an unforgivable sin.

You are right, the only salvation is through faith in Christ. That said, this is a complicated question that sometimes ends up being addressed in oversimplified ways.

There's a lot more to this of course, but from the Church's perspective, God wants to be reconciled with us, and sent His only begotten Son to make that possible. On the other hand, the individual's conscience is a key component here - all are required to sincerely follow their conscience, and the only unforgiveable sin is the sin against the Holy Spirit (which is complete rejection of the divine). Is there a higher standard for those who have been raised in the faith? Certainly knowledge raises the bar on expectation, and having knowledge of the faith means you also bear more responsibility for responding according to the will of God. If you have trouble believing, but are sincerely and continually forming and following your conscience, and striving to improve your efforts in both regards, then in my opinion you are doing what is required of you. The rest is up to the Spirit. Be patient since He works in His own time.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Dickies]

How do you explain the explosion of Christianity after His death and resurrection

After you attack a country, and murder its people, you get to install your religion. It's a really sweet side benefit.

Which then allows you to accumulate more faith, purchase additional military units and secure a domination victory

 

[Paddington]

He fills the void in your heart and gives purpose.

And what if you have no void and have a purpose? Then what?

Without God, you have no purpose, for God is the one who gives purpose. Does God give the unsaved purpose for a short time before physical death, yes. But in eternity, they waste away.

And now you’ve lost me. But hey it was a good run, 24 whole hours….

God intends for us all to have a puropse, but those who don't know Christ, won't have any purpose once they are dead because they have rejected God and therefore rejected His purpose for them. They end up in eternal punishment.

 

[fatness]

God intends for us all to have a puropse, but those who don't know Christ, won't have any purpose once they are dead because they have rejected God and therefore rejected His purpose for them. They end up in eternal punishment.

I believe they, and believers, end up dead, then gradually decomposing and disappearing.
I believe your need to believe in eternal punishment for those who do not believe as you do is kind of sad.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

God intends for us all to have a puropse, but those who don't know Christ, won't have any purpose once they are dead because they have rejected God and therefore rejected His purpose for them. They end up in eternal punishment.

I believe they, and believers, end up dead, then gradually decomposing and disappearing.
I believe your need to believe in eternal punishment for those who do not believe as you do is kind of sad.

I also find it a little alarming that people can look at others with differing beliefs with such disdain that they believe they should be punished for an eternity (as in forever, which is a concept in its own that's hard to fully grasp) not because they're bad people, but simply for disagreeing.

It's hate and for all the good the gets pointed out regarding religion it's a concept I find ugly, believe what i believe or suffer the ultimate torture. Great way to create a less than outgroup.

 

[Captain Cranks]

God intends for us all to have a puropse, but those who don't know Christ, won't have any purpose once they are dead because they have rejected God and therefore rejected His purpose for them. They end up in eternal punishment.

I believe they, and believers, end up dead, then gradually decomposing and disappearing.
I believe your need to believe in eternal punishment for those who do not believe as you do is kind of sad.

I also find it a little alarming that people can look at others with differing beliefs with such disdain that they believe they should be punished for an eternity (as in forever, which is a concept in its own that's hard to fully grasp) not because they're bad people, but simply for disagreeing.

It's hate and for all the good the gets pointed out regarding religion it's a concept I find ugly, believe what i believe or suffer the ultimate torture. Great way to create a less than outgroup.

To be fair, I don't think Paddington, or many Christians, are saying you should be punished. Just that you will be punished. The latter is a restatement of what they're taught while the former is an opinion.

That must be a tough one for believers to accept, honestly. Like if I were to ask my dad, a devout Christian, does it seem reasonable that I be punished for eternity for not accepting Christ as my Savior, can't imagine he'd say, "absolutely."

The punishment does not fit the crime and and is a big check in the "flawed, manmade concept of a creator" column.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

God intends for us all to have a puropse, but those who don't know Christ, won't have any purpose once they are dead because they have rejected God and therefore rejected His purpose for them. They end up in eternal punishment.

I believe they, and believers, end up dead, then gradually decomposing and disappearing.
I believe your need to believe in eternal punishment for those who do not believe as you do is kind of sad.

I also find it a little alarming that people can look at others with differing beliefs with such disdain that they believe they should be punished for an eternity (as in forever, which is a concept in its own that's hard to fully grasp) not because they're bad people, but simply for disagreeing.

It's hate and for all the good the gets pointed out regarding religion it's a concept I find ugly, believe what i believe or suffer the ultimate torture. Great way to create a less than outgroup.

To be fair, I don't think Paddington, or many Christians, are saying you should be punished. Just that you will be punished. The latter is a restatement of what they're taught while the former is an opinion.

That must be a tough one for believers to accept, honestly. Like if I were to ask my dad, a devout Christian, does it seem reasonable that I be punished for eternity for not accepting Christ as my Savior, can't imagine he'd say, "absolutely."

The punishment does not fit the crime and and is a big check in the "flawed, manmade concept of a creator" column.

That's fair and i should have been more clear to not blame individuals so much as the religion that teaches it. Knowing good people will suffer for simply not having blind faith is a hurdle i can't get over. It doesn't work if we're describing an all loving kind creator.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Here's an open ended question. Is Apocalypticism, defined as a religious belief system centered on the idea that the world as we know it will soon come to a decisive end, healthy for society?

I'd argue that it is not as it makes it easier for adherents to settle on inaction of real world problems and can help justify passivity. It also fosters an us vs them, good vs evil mindset.

 

[Caveman33]

Here's an open ended question. Is Apocalypticism, defined as a religious belief system centered on the idea that the world as we know it will soon come to a decisive end, healthy for society?

I'd argue that it is not as it makes it easier for adherents to settle on inaction of real world problems and can help justify passivity. It also fosters an us vs them, good vs evil mindset.

I agree that Apocalypticism has a negative effect on society. Religion itself is fine. It may reduce some crime, and the crime committed in its name may well have been committed for other reasons in religion's absence. But Apocalypticism leads to a helpless, selfish outlook on the environment without any societal benefit. Aside from clips like this from a doomsday cult: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW0CO2F-q60

 

[TwinTurbo]

I proposed a question earlier in the thread in relation to free will and choosing your religion. It went unanswered, but as someone raised in a Christian family and community i wasn't exposed to any other thoughts or ideologies. Like many others some my earliest memories are in church or at Christian cultural events. As a child i wasn't given options or taught any other possibility than Christianity. Indoctrination doesn't feel like the right word, but choice was never part of my religious experience in formative years. Curiosity and wanting to understand more made it pretty clear these ideas were decided for me, not by me.

The question of why Christianity (or any other religion) with so many other ideologies/philosophies always interests me. In my real life with family and friends I already know the answer, it's because it was chosen for them. I think that's a fair assessment.

Religion choosing you vs you choosing your religion doesn't disprove or prove anything, but for anyone steadfast in their religious beliefs, did you choose your religion based on comparing other options or was your religion chosen for you?

You could swap out the word religion for language. Over half the world's population is multilingual and around half of those learn during childhood vs later leaners. But even if you only spoke one language growing up, your language continues to evolve and you can of course learn more languages, dialects, even accents if you desire to.

Similarly using the linguistic analogy, religion has evolved like language over time. And even steadfast believers probably don't believe exactly the same as they did as a child. Or they may have adopted new beliefs entirely even if they were only exposed to a single ideology growing up.

And like any language, religions are not monolithic. I can't even tell you how many sects of Christianity exist. AI says its broadly 45000 globally. And each one of them speaks a slightly to vastly different "language". But they all originated from the same root.

I am a believer but also realize I understand very little and am but a grain of sand on the beach in a world of countless beaches. I do appreciate threads like this if it provides an opportunity to listen and learn and try to understand other points of view.

 

[dgreen]

Here's an open ended question. Is Apocalypticism, defined as a religious belief system centered on the idea that the world as we know it will soon come to a decisive end, healthy for society?

I'd argue that it is not as it makes it easier for adherents to settle on inaction of real world problems and can help justify passivity. It also fosters an us vs them, good vs evil mindset.

Agree. There are several theologies (incorrect ones, IMO) that lead to inaction. When we combined this type of apocalypticism with a soteriology (belief of salvation) that says this life is all about "going to Heaven after we die" and the way to get there is by agreeing in your mind with a particular belief system, a large segment of Christianity is left not seeing the importance of doing good works.

 

[Paddington]

God intends for us all to have a puropse, but those who don't know Christ, won't have any purpose once they are dead because they have rejected God and therefore rejected His purpose for them. They end up in eternal punishment.

I believe they, and believers, end up dead, then gradually decomposing and disappearing.
I believe your need to believe in eternal punishment for those who do not believe as you do is kind of sad.

It's not need I have. It's a truth I know. I know God because when I placed my Faith in Christ and His death and resurrection to save me, I was born again in the Spirit. God communes with those in Christ in a way that Non belivers can't understand.