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It's not because we look at them with disdain. It's because we believe God's Word the Bible. You obviously believe that the God of the Bible is hateful after He sent His only Son to Die, so that you wouldn't have to go there. That's not hate, it's love. If it were hate, God would have already sent His enemies there. But He wants to save them and is giving them a huge chance at Salvation. Why would anyone say no?
For the same reason you say no to Ahura Mazda and Vishnu.
How does God commune with you? Be specific please.
He’s mentioned it many times before. He believes he’s had direct conversations with God.
Then let him just save them! Have some faith that God's love, his forgiveness, his grave is just that.
Apocalypticism was the answer to how God's chosen people could still suffer even when they keep to God's laws. It made sense during the times of the prophets for Jews to suffer because they kept turning their back to God, but not in this age. So, a century or two before Jesus the idea that forces of evil had taken control of earth, but sometime soon God would re-exert himself and take control back. In a not so pleasant cosmic event for the enemies of God. With someone called "Son of Man".
I was hoping for something better than just a condescending pat on the head and a "you aren't capable of understanding this", but alas. You believe you're in direct contact with god, and that gives you the right to be demeaning. I don't believe you will convince many people to believe as you do with an attitude like that. You're not discussing things respectfully with others with different beliefs. You're talking down to them, and not listening, and as I said before I believe that's sad. You're missing out on communicating with fellow humans.
I can't/shouldn't say gods or individuals are hateful, but i can say the notion that people employing critical thought and not having blind faith as the ultimate and most serious of offenses is. To me it isn't a very loving message, "conform or face the ultimate eternal torture".
I honestly don't see the difference and, if anything, the poster that you admonished was the far less offensive in the exchange. They poster he was responding to is perpetually enabled to repeat the same condescending tone. Thread after thread after thread. This is just the same thread as the others with slightly different branding
Yes. Less of this please.
I honestly don't see the difference and, if anything, the poster that you admonished was the far less offensive in the exchange. They poster he was responding to is perpetually enabled to repeat the same condescending tone. Thread after thread after thread. This is just the same thread as the others with slightly different branding
Yes. Less of this please.
For what it's worth, Joe sent me a kind message explaining why he deleted it. My inference is that we are to stay away from any suggestions about mental health in this thread even if it is drawing a parallel to anecdotal experiences working with individuals in a professional setting who suffer from some sort of psychosis or similar mental health issue in the context as to whether meaningful discussion can be had. It's Joe's board and I respect him for running it so I will say nothing further after this post about it.
I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in and around me. Sometimes it happens wnen I focus on His presence and sometimes when it is far from my mind. Sometimes I feel His disapproval when I sin, and His approval when I do His will. I have experienced miracles. I have had God speak to me both audibly and sometimes in my Spirit in a Way I can understand. He has given me visions. My family has experienced true miracles. His Word jumps off of the page at me at times. Many other things. Jesus is Real. Jesus is God. Trust Him.
I have never experienced any of those things. Shouldn't my natural reaction then be to believe that god is not real? In fact, it seems like that is my only reasonable reaction.
I was a Christian for about 30 years and experienced all of those things, minus god speaking to me audibly, then I realized it was just my conscience
Well you’re clearly forgetting the 2000 year old book(s) written in a different language full of parables, some real, some just stories, that you must determine the difference between somehow, not actually written by God but by multiple random people decades after the fact that lays out the fate of every human soul for all of eternity. Isn’t that enough for you?
open.substack.com
I look back on that catechism and call it “dead center” because it was so unreflective. I had not investigated the factual validity of any of those propositions. They were part of the received wisdom of most Western intellectuals throughout the 20th century. I accepted them without thinking.
Some eminent thinkers have argued that the question about existence is meaningless; others, that the universe did not require an act of creation. I couldn’t buy either answer. I decided that the existence of something rather than nothing is a mystery with a capital M.
Overview
The First Doubts
The Question That Changed Everything
Rethinking God
Influence of His Wife
Key Takeaways
My takeaway is that this is a better argument for spirituality than theology. I could be wrong, but I think most here would agree that the feelings and experiences we can get from being spiritual are real, albeit not something you can show or prove to others. When we start to attach that spirituality to a specific theology is where we become disconnected on our view of things.
Growing up, I heard the ant analogy. That we are like ants to God and can't understand him. This seems similar, but raises us to a higher position than an ant, which I like. As a dog, there can be some understanding of the owner.
Pete Enns is someone who talks a lot about certainty. His book The Sin of Certainty was helpful to me as my doubts began to mount a couple years ago. Valuing certainty can be a religion of its own.And an AI summary
Here’s a polished, one-page reading-group or newsletter-style summary of Charles Murray’s essay. It’s written to feel like a thoughtful, shareable takeaway sheet.
By Charles Murray — The Free Press, October 14, 2025
Political scientist Charles Murray—long known for his secular rationalism—reflects on how his certainty about unbelief slowly unraveled. In this excerpt from his new book Taking Religion Seriously, he traces the “series of nudges” that led him to humility and wonder rather than disbelief.
- Raised in post-war rationalism, Murray accepted a simple creed: science disproves God, consciousness ends with the brain, and religion is a human invention.
- He later realized those views were “dead center—so unreflective”; they were assumptions he’d never tested.
- His curiosity began with a strange sense of design:
Hearing a friend ask, “Why is there something rather than nothing?” jolted him.
Murray adopted Aristotle’s idea of the “unmoved mover”—a creative force beyond human comprehension.
Watching Catherine, a devoted Quaker, changed how he viewed believers.
- Certainty can be its own faith. Unquestioned disbelief is still belief in something.
- Spiritual awareness is a kind of perception. Some feel what others can’t—yet both can live rational, honest lives.
- Modern distractions dull transcendence. Comfort makes it easy to ignore the deeper ache for meaning.
- Wonder is the doorway to belief. Faith may begin not in answers but in awe that there is anything at all.
Adapted from Charles Murray’s Taking Religion Seriously (Encounter Books, 2025).
Would you like me to format this as a downloadable PDF (with clean typography and pull-quote styling for print or sharing)?
I don't care for that analogy at all. It might work if we assume that god does, in fact, exist. My dog absolutely knows that I exist. My dog may not understand my motivations, my feelings, my desires, my goals, or my whims, but my dog knows without doubt that I exist.
If I’m understanding Murray, the analogy assumes God’s existence and isn’t trying to prove it.
Most of the athiests I've talked to don't make any claims with 100% certainty about the possible existence of anything. I mean there could be a rock formation that looks exactly like Richard Nixon floating in space somewhere, and I'm more than willing to admit the possibility. But, like my opinion on gods, and with no evidence I find compelling, I couldn't begin to care. As the aforementioned Penn Jilette once opined "Atheism is a belief like not collecting stamps is a hobby."Pete Enns is someone who talks a lot about certainty. His book The Sin of Certainty was helpful to me as my doubts began to mount a couple years ago. Valuing certainty can be a religion of its own.And an AI summary
Here’s a polished, one-page reading-group or newsletter-style summary of Charles Murray’s essay. It’s written to feel like a thoughtful, shareable takeaway sheet.
By Charles Murray — The Free Press, October 14, 2025
Political scientist Charles Murray—long known for his secular rationalism—reflects on how his certainty about unbelief slowly unraveled. In this excerpt from his new book Taking Religion Seriously, he traces the “series of nudges” that led him to humility and wonder rather than disbelief.
- Raised in post-war rationalism, Murray accepted a simple creed: science disproves God, consciousness ends with the brain, and religion is a human invention.
- He later realized those views were “dead center—so unreflective”; they were assumptions he’d never tested.
- His curiosity began with a strange sense of design:
Hearing a friend ask, “Why is there something rather than nothing?” jolted him.
Murray adopted Aristotle’s idea of the “unmoved mover”—a creative force beyond human comprehension.
Watching Catherine, a devoted Quaker, changed how he viewed believers.
- Certainty can be its own faith. Unquestioned disbelief is still belief in something.
- Spiritual awareness is a kind of perception. Some feel what others can’t—yet both can live rational, honest lives.
- Modern distractions dull transcendence. Comfort makes it easy to ignore the deeper ache for meaning.
- Wonder is the doorway to belief. Faith may begin not in answers but in awe that there is anything at all.
Adapted from Charles Murray’s Taking Religion Seriously (Encounter Books, 2025).
Would you like me to format this as a downloadable PDF (with clean typography and pull-quote styling for print or sharing)?
I agree. And if someone provides an analogy based on an assumption, then I would need to accept that assumption if I want to have a conversation about what that person is claiming. If I challenge the assumption, then I'm changing the topic.
I studied the prime mover theory intently when studying apologetics in high school and college. My understanding of the logic is that everything has a beginning. In the case of the universe, since math and science show things in harmony and intelligent beings exist, the logical extension is that some being had to intend for this to happen. This "prime mover" is by definition God. Further, the theory is then oftentimes coupled with the idea that something created cannot be greater than its creator, so we are all lesser than God and his intelligent design - hence the dog to human analogy Murray makes when he appears to find mental peace with the notion that God is so much greater than we can comprehend so we should stop trying.
Sure, but that only works for someone who already agrees with the base assumption, that God exists. If we can’t agree on that then it doesn’t work. And if you’re not trying to reach the people who aren’t convinced God exists then who is the “argument” or “here’s a way to think of this” for?
Yeah it's akin to the abortion debate where, generally, pro-choice people do not believe the zygote is a human where as pro-lifers do so the argument over whether it is murder is useless given that the two sides cannot agree on a pivotal base fact.*
But it's not just your concience and who do you think put your concience there? I can tell the difference between my conscience and the Holy Spirit. Many times He will speak to me when I'm not even thinking about it. Also, sometimes before God speaks to me I will feel his presence hovering over me. Sometimes if He's convicting me I will feel strong anxiety beforehand and then after he speaks to me and I submit to his will the anxiety goes away. That does not come from me
You've mentioned a very personal relationship to God, so much so that you believe he's talking directly to you. What is this like? Is it direct almost like a phone call? You say "if he's convicting me I will feel strong anxiety beforehand and then after he speaks to me and I submit to his will the anxiety goes away". Can you give an example of what that looks/feels/sounds like?
No, I think that is atypical. I also have an inner monologue and God may put things into my thinking but discernment is generally needed to know what is of God and what is not.
There isn't scientific evidence of any relationship. You can't prove that your mother loves you, but I bet you believe it. Faith is similar to that. It's largely a mountain of circumstantial evidence that substantiates your belief. Not that there aren't things that aren't explainable, but it's easier to accept those things as having a divine explanation if you first believe in the divine.
Thanks. I assumed that was the case for most and I can understand that little intuition we get and how it feels like a guiding force. I'm sure we all feel it regardless of beliefs and how we interpret that can reinforce them. I don't pooh pooh this idea as God or other unexplained force, there's still plenty of mystery in the universe. I was curious what this felt like from the Christian perspective after reading what Paddington says he experiences. I know plenty of people that speak to God, but i don't think I know any that get a direct answer.
I'm talking about Paddington actually hearing voices. I can definitely hear my mother talking to me but God has never said a word.
Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.
