A Prayer Of Salvation (7 Viewers)

[Joe Bryant]

I'll also say, while I haven't experienced God talking to me audibly, I don't mock or denigrate anyone who has. I'm not saying anyone here is doing that but as I've gotten older, I've found myself more accepting of things I haven't experienced or don't understand.

 

[dgreen]

I don't tend to think of my inner voice/conscience as being God speaking to me. However, I do think there have been a few times in my life that I'd say God was "calling" me to something. It was an inner voice that just wouldn't go away.

The first was when I finally decided to be baptized. In my church tradition, baptism is highly valued and is seen as the mark of salvation. Tons of people will make this decision/commitment in their teen years. There were a lot of things about how it was taught that just didn't make sense to me, so I got all the way through my church youth group years without being baptized. At my church, we take communion every week (which is heavily linked with baptism in my church tradition) and a lot of sermons would end with an invitation for anyone to come down front who wanted to be baptized. During both those portions of the worship service each week for about a year, I felt like every eye in the auditorium was on me. It was extremely uncomfortable. Of course, nobody was actually looking at me, but it was like a voice was screaming at me, "Good grief, just get baptized already!" My stubbornness fought that voice for a long time until I finally decided to be baptized.

The second scenario was related to a constant voice in me saying that I should confess my porn addiction to my wife. I fought that voice even longer than the baptism voice, for obvious reasons. That was probably a few years from the point of "the voice" starting until I finally told her. Soon after, a couple of my guy friends shared their experiences and we had a small group of men who tried to be accountable to each other. The confession and finally obeying that voice was temporarily very helpful to me. However, it was the start of a very difficult time for my wife. It was a strain on our marriage for a while.

Lastly, a few years ago, I binged 200+ episodes of a podcast that was recommended to me which resulted in actually being interested in reading and studying the Bible for the first time in my life. I quickly recognized a voice repeatedly saying that I need to do something with what I learned and have been teaching classes at my church and have continued my own learning. I was nervous about becoming a teacher, but this time I didn't ignore that calling for very long. Within a few weeks of the idea popping into my mind, I was meeting with one of my preachers to discuss this journey and how to share it with others.

I look at those three instances as God talking to me is some way; a "calling" so to speak. There was no bright light. The voice in my head didn't sound different than my own voice. It was just a voice that I couldn't escape. The first was to commit myself to God through baptism. The second was to deal with my sin and the damage it causes in my relationships (still working on that 20+ years since confessing). The third was to help others start their journey to find a more loving God than the one they might have heard about so that they can become more loving themselves.

I'd like to be better at acting quickly on this voice/conscience. So many times I see a person who is obviously in need and I don't offer to help. At times, I have gone back to where that person was to offer help after thinking about it (sometimes even just a few minutes later) and I can't find them.

 

[Captain Cranks]

I don't tend to think of my inner voice/conscience as being God speaking to me. However, I do think there have been a few times in my life that I'd say God was "calling" me to something. It was an inner voice that just wouldn't go away.

The first was when I finally decided to be baptized. In my church tradition, baptism is highly valued and is seen as the mark of salvation. Tons of people will make this decision/commitment in their teen years. There were a lot of things about how it was taught that just didn't make sense to me, so I got all the way through my church youth group years without being baptized. At my church, we take communion every week (which is heavily linked with baptism in my church tradition) and a lot of sermons would end with an invitation for anyone to come down front who wanted to be baptized. During both those portions of the worship service each week for about a year, I felt like every eye in the auditorium was on me. It was extremely uncomfortable. Of course, nobody was actually looking at me, but it was like a voice was screaming at me, "Good grief, just get baptized already!" My stubbornness fought that voice for a long time until I finally decided to be baptized.

The second scenario was related to a constant voice in me saying that I should confess my porn addiction to my wife. I fought that voice even longer than the baptism voice, for obvious reasons. That was probably a few years from the point of "the voice" starting until I finally told her. Soon after, a couple of my guy friends shared their experiences and we had a small group of men who tried to be accountable to each other. The confession and finally obeying that voice was temporarily very helpful to me. However, it was the start of a very difficult time for my wife. It was a strain on our marriage for a while.

Lastly, a few years ago, I binged 200+ episodes of a podcast that was recommended to me which resulted in actually being interested in reading and studying the Bible for the first time in my life. I quickly recognized a voice repeatedly saying that I need to do something with what I learned and have been teaching classes at my church and have continued my own learning. I was nervous about becoming a teacher, but this time I didn't ignore that calling for very long. Within a few weeks of the idea popping into my mind, I was meeting with one of my preachers to discuss this journey and how to share it with others.

I look at those three instances as God talking to me is some way; a "calling" so to speak. There was no bright light. The voice in my head didn't sound different than my own voice. It was just a voice that I couldn't escape. The first was to commit myself to God through baptism. The second was to deal with my sin and the damage it causes in my relationships (still working on that 20+ years since confessing). The third was to help others start their journey to find a more loving God than the one they might have heard about so that they can become more loving themselves.

I'd like to be better at acting quickly on this voice/conscience. So many times I see a person who is obviously in need and I don't offer to help. At times, I have gone back to where that person was to offer help after thinking about it (sometimes even just a few minutes later) and I can't find them.

Apologies if I've asked this before, but do you feel there are a myriad of ways to have a relationship with God or is Christianity the only correct route?

 

[Joe Bryant]

I don't tend to think of my inner voice/conscience as being God speaking to me. However, I do think there have been a few times in my life that I'd say God was "calling" me to something. It was an inner voice that just wouldn't go away.

The first was when I finally decided to be baptized. In my church tradition, baptism is highly valued and is seen as the mark of salvation. Tons of people will make this decision/commitment in their teen years. There were a lot of things about how it was taught that just didn't make sense to me, so I got all the way through my church youth group years without being baptized. At my church, we take communion every week (which is heavily linked with baptism in my church tradition) and a lot of sermons would end with an invitation for anyone to come down front who wanted to be baptized. During both those portions of the worship service each week for about a year, I felt like every eye in the auditorium was on me. It was extremely uncomfortable. Of course, nobody was actually looking at me, but it was like a voice was screaming at me, "Good grief, just get baptized already!" My stubbornness fought that voice for a long time until I finally decided to be baptized.

The second scenario was related to a constant voice in me saying that I should confess my porn addiction to my wife. I fought that voice even longer than the baptism voice, for obvious reasons. That was probably a few years from the point of "the voice" starting until I finally told her. Soon after, a couple of my guy friends shared their experiences and we had a small group of men who tried to be accountable to each other. The confession and finally obeying that voice was temporarily very helpful to me. However, it was the start of a very difficult time for my wife. It was a strain on our marriage for a while.

Lastly, a few years ago, I binged 200+ episodes of a podcast that was recommended to me which resulted in actually being interested in reading and studying the Bible for the first time in my life. I quickly recognized a voice repeatedly saying that I need to do something with what I learned and have been teaching classes at my church and have continued my own learning. I was nervous about becoming a teacher, but this time I didn't ignore that calling for very long. Within a few weeks of the idea popping into my mind, I was meeting with one of my preachers to discuss this journey and how to share it with others.

I look at those three instances as God talking to me is some way; a "calling" so to speak. There was no bright light. The voice in my head didn't sound different than my own voice. It was just a voice that I couldn't escape. The first was to commit myself to God through baptism. The second was to deal with my sin and the damage it causes in my relationships (still working on that 20+ years since confessing). The third was to help others start their journey to find a more loving God than the one they might have heard about so that they can become more loving themselves.

I'd like to be better at acting quickly on this voice/conscience. So many times I see a person who is obviously in need and I don't offer to help. At times, I have gone back to where that person was to offer help after thinking about it (sometimes even just a few minutes later) and I can't find them.

Apologies if I've asked this before, but do you feel there are a myriad of ways to have a relationship with God or is Christianity the only correct route?

No need to apologize and I know you weren't asking me but I have a pretty strong feeling on it.

I know there are passages in the scripture that say Jesus is the only way. And I choose Jesus.

But I also asked a Christian pastor one day who has studed scripture and theology for 40 plus years if there will be people from other religions in heaven.

He said, "We'll see".

I think that's a much more mature and useful way to look at it. Yes, I think Jesus is the way. And it's the way I follow. But I don't see a lot of upside in trying to tell people of other faiths that they're wrong.

And some Christians know, we even do that amongst ourselves. Baptists arguing with Catholics arguing with Methodists etc. And don't even get started with Mormons. LOL. All that seems kind of like a waste to me. Seems to me like we'd be more effective trying to reflect Jesus more and arguing less.

 

[dgreen]

I don't tend to think of my inner voice/conscience as being God speaking to me. However, I do think there have been a few times in my life that I'd say God was "calling" me to something. It was an inner voice that just wouldn't go away.

The first was when I finally decided to be baptized. In my church tradition, baptism is highly valued and is seen as the mark of salvation. Tons of people will make this decision/commitment in their teen years. There were a lot of things about how it was taught that just didn't make sense to me, so I got all the way through my church youth group years without being baptized. At my church, we take communion every week (which is heavily linked with baptism in my church tradition) and a lot of sermons would end with an invitation for anyone to come down front who wanted to be baptized. During both those portions of the worship service each week for about a year, I felt like every eye in the auditorium was on me. It was extremely uncomfortable. Of course, nobody was actually looking at me, but it was like a voice was screaming at me, "Good grief, just get baptized already!" My stubbornness fought that voice for a long time until I finally decided to be baptized.

The second scenario was related to a constant voice in me saying that I should confess my porn addiction to my wife. I fought that voice even longer than the baptism voice, for obvious reasons. That was probably a few years from the point of "the voice" starting until I finally told her. Soon after, a couple of my guy friends shared their experiences and we had a small group of men who tried to be accountable to each other. The confession and finally obeying that voice was temporarily very helpful to me. However, it was the start of a very difficult time for my wife. It was a strain on our marriage for a while.

Lastly, a few years ago, I binged 200+ episodes of a podcast that was recommended to me which resulted in actually being interested in reading and studying the Bible for the first time in my life. I quickly recognized a voice repeatedly saying that I need to do something with what I learned and have been teaching classes at my church and have continued my own learning. I was nervous about becoming a teacher, but this time I didn't ignore that calling for very long. Within a few weeks of the idea popping into my mind, I was meeting with one of my preachers to discuss this journey and how to share it with others.

I look at those three instances as God talking to me is some way; a "calling" so to speak. There was no bright light. The voice in my head didn't sound different than my own voice. It was just a voice that I couldn't escape. The first was to commit myself to God through baptism. The second was to deal with my sin and the damage it causes in my relationships (still working on that 20+ years since confessing). The third was to help others start their journey to find a more loving God than the one they might have heard about so that they can become more loving themselves.

I'd like to be better at acting quickly on this voice/conscience. So many times I see a person who is obviously in need and I don't offer to help. At times, I have gone back to where that person was to offer help after thinking about it (sometimes even just a few minutes later) and I can't find them.

Apologies if I've asked this before, but do you feel there are a myriad of ways to have a relationship with God or is Christianity the only correct route?

I know you're borrowing our language of "relationship with God", but I'm really not sure what most Christians mean when they say that. I'm not sure if you have a particular meaning you are thinking of here.

I guess I'd say that Christianity is the only correct route into a particular covenant relationship with God. It wouldn't make sense to me for there to be a myriad of ways into that covenant relationship because one must knowingly join that mission. But, maybe there are other types of relationships with God? I assume that people who never hear about this particular Christian covenant relationship with God can feel God's presence and have some sort of relationship. I mean, what's discussed in the Bible covers a tiny part of the world in a relatively small amount of time. I'd hate to think that someone living in South America in 40 AD couldn't have any type of relationship with God just because they hadn't heard of this Jesus movement on the other side of the Earth.

 

[Paddington]

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

 

[dkp993]

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

Ah….. um….. what?

 

[RCon]

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

Got a link?

 

[Captain Cranks]

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

Got a link?

Gemini response:

"It does not appear that there has been a mainstream, academic, or scientific "study" that has conclusively proven that invoking the name of Christ stops alien abductions.

However, the idea you are asking about is a notable claim within certain communities, particularly those who interpret the alien abduction phenomenon through a Christian or spiritual warfare lens:

• Anecdotal Reports and Theological Interpretations: There are numerous anecdotal reports and books, often from a Christian apologetics perspective, that collect testimonies of people who claim their alien abduction experience abruptly ended when they verbally invoked the name of Jesus Christ.
• Specific Groups/Books: For example, the CE4 Research Group and the book Unholy Communion: The Alien Abduction Phenomenon, Where It Originates and How It Stops by David Ruffino and Joseph Jordan, claim to have documented case studies suggesting this connection, interpreting the entities as demonic rather than extraterrestrial.
• Mainstream Scientific View: Mainstream scientists and researchers who study the abduction phenomenon generally approach it from a psychological, neurological, or cultural perspective (e.g., false memory, sleep paralysis, psychological factors) and do not typically conduct studies on the effect of religious invocation on the alleged events.
  

 

[Dan Lambskin]

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

So god will stop an alien abduction but turns a blind eye to altar boys being sexually abused by priests?

 

[Northern Voice]

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

So god will stop an alien abduction but turns a blind eye to altar boys being sexually abused by priests?

The idea of a God who actively participates in humanity on a day to day basis is quite an interesting one.

If he's communicating with people in this thread and with aliens, why hasn't he done the same to stop the hundreds of millions of deaths in his name. He should be speaking to someone in the various conflicts shouldn't he. Or is all the death and destruction in his name his will.

If he is communicating and acting in society, by speaking to Paddington, stopping alien abductions, willing others in here to act a certain way, helping Kirk Cousins find the end zone etc... why stop there?

Or maybe none of it is happening at all.

 

[Scoresman]

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

So god will stop an alien abduction but turns a blind eye to altar boys being sexually abused by priests?

The idea of a God who actively participates in humanity on a day to day basis is quite an interesting one.

If he's communicating with people in this thread and with aliens, why hasn't he done the same to stop the hundreds of millions of deaths in his name. He should be speaking to someone in the various conflicts shouldn't he. Or is all the death and destruction in his name his will.

If he is communicating and acting in society, by speaking to Paddington, stopping alien abductions, willing others in here to act a certain way, helping Kirk Cousins find the end zone etc... why stop there?

Or maybe none of it is happening at all.

It goes back to the saying, "either he's all powerful and not all good, or not all powerful, but good." It's pretty clear both cant be the case.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

Do you think when people talk about "aliens" they're talking about angels and demons? I think from your statement here you do believe in aliens and their tech just not that they're a separate biological species, but spiritual beings fighting for souls, yes?

So in today's world when people see crafts or beings is that the same as the bright stars and apparitions described in the Bible in your opinion? It's an interesting thought that what people describe as UFOs might be religious deities. Did people see unexplained things in the sky and attach religion to it? I think that's the case throughout most cultures.

If you go back to Gobekli Tepe and that region, since to my knowledge that's the earliest known "settlements" of the pre pottery Neolithic astrological alignments were apparently very important and we see that across cultures. It does make you wonder what did they see, was it more than just timing of the seasons and harvests and the like? I'm not sure, but looking up has been an important part of human history.

 

[Zow]

Oh come on

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

Do you think when people talk about "aliens" they're talking about angels and demons? I think from your statement here you do believe in aliens and their tech just not that they're a separate biological species, but spiritual beings fighting for souls, yes?

So in today's world when people see crafts or beings is that the same as the bright stars and apparitions described in the Bible in your opinion? It's an interesting thought that what people describe as UFOs might be religious deities. Did people see unexplained things in the sky and attach religion to it? I think that's the case throughout most cultures.

If you go back to Gobekli Tepe and that region, since to my knowledge that's the earliest known "settlements" of the pre pottery Neolithic astrological alignments were apparently very important and we see that across cultures. It does make you wonder what did they see, was it more than just timing of the seasons and harvests and the like? I'm not sure, but looking up has been an important part of human history.

I read this in Graham Hancock's voice.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

Oh come on

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

Do you think when people talk about "aliens" they're talking about angels and demons? I think from your statement here you do believe in aliens and their tech just not that they're a separate biological species, but spiritual beings fighting for souls, yes?

So in today's world when people see crafts or beings is that the same as the bright stars and apparitions described in the Bible in your opinion? It's an interesting thought that what people describe as UFOs might be religious deities. Did people see unexplained things in the sky and attach religion to it? I think that's the case throughout most cultures.

If you go back to Gobekli Tepe and that region, since to my knowledge that's the earliest known "settlements" of the pre pottery Neolithic astrological alignments were apparently very important and we see that across cultures. It does make you wonder what did they see, was it more than just timing of the seasons and harvests and the like? I'm not sure, but looking up has been an important part of human history.

I read this in Graham Hancock's voice.

I wrote it in Graham Hancock's voice

I'm really not trying to troll with that, but I'm hoping to hear what he thinks from his particular version of Christianity. He mentioned UFOs as demons and not to get all ancient aliens with it, but i do want to hear his thoughts if he wants to offer them.

 

[BassNBrew]

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

My understanding is that's God's will and they are in a better place with God because of it.

No need to apologize and I know you weren't asking me but I have a pretty strong feeling on it.

I know there are passages in the scripture that say Jesus is the only way. And I choose Jesus.

But I also asked a Christian pastor one day who has studed scripture and theology for 40 plus years if there will be people from other religions in heaven.

He said, "We'll see".

I think that's a much more mature and useful way to look at it. Yes, I think Jesus is the way. And it's the way I follow. But I don't see a lot of upside in trying to tell people of other faiths that they're wrong.

And some Christians know, we even do that amongst ourselves. Baptists arguing with Catholics arguing with Methodists etc. And don't even get started with Mormons. LOL. All that seems kind of like a waste to me. Seems to me like we'd be more effective trying to reflect Jesus more and arguing less.

Honestly after 40 years I would hope for a better answer than we'll see. IMO that would be similar to subscriber asking Robinson or Chase the rest of the year and you say we'll see. I think the mature answer is I don't have all the answers and can't predict the future, but IMO the greater probability based on what I know is that they won't be in heaven. It's also possible that God is a segregationist and their are multiple heavens to keep us separated. Someone earlier talked about multiple after life landing spots outside of heaven and hell. If that's the case then multiple heavens could be in play.

I suspect most Christians would discount it, but just like their being Coke and Pepsi, their could be more than one God in play.

 

[Psychopav]

I'll also say, while I haven't experienced God talking to me audibly, I don't mock or denigrate anyone who has. I'm not saying anyone here is doing that but as I've gotten older, I've found myself more accepting of things I haven't experienced or don't understand.

I agree, and there is a long and strong history of mysticism in the Christian church. While the vast majority of believers do not experience this, tradition tells us that some, in fact, do experience the faith in more palpable ways like this. Saint Francis not heard God speaking to him, after all, and I think most agree that he went on to do some pretty good stuff.

 

[Joe Bryant]

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

My understanding is that's God's will and they are in a better place with God because of it.

No need to apologize and I know you weren't asking me but I have a pretty strong feeling on it.

I know there are passages in the scripture that say Jesus is the only way. And I choose Jesus.

But I also asked a Christian pastor one day who has studed scripture and theology for 40 plus years if there will be people from other religions in heaven.

He said, "We'll see".

I think that's a much more mature and useful way to look at it. Yes, I think Jesus is the way. And it's the way I follow. But I don't see a lot of upside in trying to tell people of other faiths that they're wrong.

And some Christians know, we even do that amongst ourselves. Baptists arguing with Catholics arguing with Methodists etc. And don't even get started with Mormons. LOL. All that seems kind of like a waste to me. Seems to me like we'd be more effective trying to reflect Jesus more and arguing less.

Honestly after 40 years I would hope for a better answer than we'll see. IMO that would be similar to subscriber asking Robinson or Chase the rest of the year and you say we'll see. I think the mature answer is I don't have all the answers and can't predict the future, but IMO the greater probability based on what I know is that they won't be in heaven. It's also possible that God is a segregationist and their are multiple heavens to keep us separated. Someone earlier talked about multiple after life landing spots outside of heaven and hell. If that's the case then multiple heavens could be in play.

I suspect most Christians would discount it, but just like their being Coke and Pepsi, their could be more than one God in play.

No worries. We can differ there as I do think "we'll see" and acknowledging one may not know everything is a good way to see it.

And I fully understand plenty will disagree.

 

[Joe Bryant]

For sure, the question of how can God and Evil both exist is a huge question. And one that's been discussed forever it seems. Many credit Epicurus with "If God is all-powerful and all-good, why does evil exist?”

I wrestle with it too. I am regularly heartbroken by awful things I see happen in the world. From a Christian view, God gave us freedom of will, and freedom means people can choose evil. If He stopped every bad thing, He’d be taking away our ability to love or choose good at all. It's allowing free will. But it's painful.

The Christian belief isn’t that God just sits back. It’s that He steps into the suffering Himself when He sent Jesus.

I don’t always understand the why. I also understand I likely don't understand the full and complete picture.

But I totally get the questions. I wrestle with them too.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

For sure, the question of how can God and Evil both exist is a huge question. And one that's been discussed forever it seems. Many credit Epicurus with "If God is all-powerful and all-good, why does evil exist?”

I wrestle with it too. I am regularly heartbroken by awful things I see happen in the world. From a Christian view, God gave us freedom of will, and freedom means people can choose evil. If He stopped every bad thing, He’d be taking away our ability to love or choose good at all. It's allowing free will. But it's painful.

The Christian belief isn’t that God just sits back. It’s that He steps into the suffering Himself when He sent Jesus.

I don’t always understand the why. I also understand I likely don't understand the full and complete picture.

But I totally get the questions. I wrestle with them too.

My outside interpretation is the bolded and it makes sense to me.

Also it would seem to me we can't fully appreciate good without the bad (evil). To borrow from another belief, yin and yang. Without the evil of Satan you can't fully appreciate the good of God. Can you understand love without hate? Maybe, but I'm not sure many have had the luxury to try. From a philosophical view without the theocracy it still makes sense. Probably simplistic, but i don't know if it needs to be complicated.

 

[Captain Cranks]

For sure, the question of how can God and Evil both exist is a huge question. And one that's been discussed forever it seems. Many credit Epicurus with "If God is all-powerful and all-good, why does evil exist?”

I wrestle with it too. I am regularly heartbroken by awful things I see happen in the world. From a Christian view, God gave us freedom of will, and freedom means people can choose evil. If He stopped every bad thing, He’d be taking away our ability to love or choose good at all. It's allowing free will. But it's painful.

The Christian belief isn’t that God just sits back. It’s that He steps into the suffering Himself when He sent Jesus.

I don’t always understand the why. I also understand I likely don't understand the full and complete picture.

But I totally get the questions. I wrestle with them too.

My outside interpretation is the bolded and it makes sense to me.

Also it would seem to me we can't fully appreciate good without the bad (evil). To borrow from another belief, yin and yang. Without the evil of Satan you can't fully appreciate the good of God. Can you understand love without hate? Maybe, but I'm not sure many have had the luxury to try. From a philosophical view without the theocracy it still makes sense. Probably simplistic, but i don't know if it needs to be complicated.

So what happens when you're in heaven? It seems something has to give in the equation you've laid out. I assume you believe there's no evil in heaven. Thus we're no longer tempted by evil so does free will disappear? Is my appreciation for God now dependent on my memories of what evil was before I got to heaven?

 

[Joe Bryant]

For sure, the question of how can God and Evil both exist is a huge question. And one that's been discussed forever it seems. Many credit Epicurus with "If God is all-powerful and all-good, why does evil exist?”

I wrestle with it too. I am regularly heartbroken by awful things I see happen in the world. From a Christian view, God gave us freedom of will, and freedom means people can choose evil. If He stopped every bad thing, He’d be taking away our ability to love or choose good at all. It's allowing free will. But it's painful.

The Christian belief isn’t that God just sits back. It’s that He steps into the suffering Himself when He sent Jesus.

I don’t always understand the why. I also understand I likely don't understand the full and complete picture.

But I totally get the questions. I wrestle with them too.

My outside interpretation is the bolded and it makes sense to me.

Also it would seem to me we can't fully appreciate good without the bad (evil). To borrow from another belief, yin and yang. Without the evil of Satan you can't fully appreciate the good of God. Can you understand love without hate? Maybe, but I'm not sure many have had the luxury to try. From a philosophical view without the theocracy it still makes sense. Probably simplistic, but i don't know if it needs to be complicated.

So what happens when you're in heaven? It seems something has to give in the equation you've laid out. I assume you believe there's no evil in heaven. Thus we're no longer tempted by evil so does free will disappear? Is my appreciation for God now dependent on my memories of what evil was before I got to heaven?

I don't know.

Revelation 21:3–4 says:​

“He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

I would think that means we remember or understand what pain and suffering were like, but it's no longer present.

But I don't really know.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

For sure, the question of how can God and Evil both exist is a huge question. And one that's been discussed forever it seems. Many credit Epicurus with "If God is all-powerful and all-good, why does evil exist?”

I wrestle with it too. I am regularly heartbroken by awful things I see happen in the world. From a Christian view, God gave us freedom of will, and freedom means people can choose evil. If He stopped every bad thing, He’d be taking away our ability to love or choose good at all. It's allowing free will. But it's painful.

The Christian belief isn’t that God just sits back. It’s that He steps into the suffering Himself when He sent Jesus.

I don’t always understand the why. I also understand I likely don't understand the full and complete picture.

But I totally get the questions. I wrestle with them too.

My outside interpretation is the bolded and it makes sense to me.

Also it would seem to me we can't fully appreciate good without the bad (evil). To borrow from another belief, yin and yang. Without the evil of Satan you can't fully appreciate the good of God. Can you understand love without hate? Maybe, but I'm not sure many have had the luxury to try. From a philosophical view without the theocracy it still makes sense. Probably simplistic, but i don't know if it needs to be complicated.

So what happens when you're in heaven? It seems something has to give in the equation you've laid out. I assume you believe there's no evil in heaven. Thus we're no longer tempted by evil so does free will disappear? Is my appreciation for God now dependent on my memories of what evil was before I got to heaven?

I don't believe in a heaven necessarily that's why i added it makes sense just as a philosophy. The idea of opposing forces is common in many traditions and philosophies. Good and evil is an example. It makes sense to me that to explain pain in the loving God's universe you'd need an evil to administer it. That's how i see that aspect of Christianity if i take the fantastic out of it.

 

[dkp993]

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

So god will stop an alien abduction but turns a blind eye to altar boys being sexually abused by priests?

If I remember correctly from one of the 47 different versions of this thread previously. The implication isn’t that God himself is stopping the alien abductions. It’s that the aliens are actually demons and invoking God‘s name you scare them off.

 

[Zow]

It's no different than UFOs and ghosts and other supernatural experiences, is it?

Main difference as I see it, is that believers in UFOs and ghosts didn't enslave millions, wipe out indigenous people, carry out wars, force their beliefs on entire countries, and teach homophobia and misogyny.

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

So god will stop an alien abduction but turns a blind eye to altar boys being sexually abused by priests?

If I remember correctly from one of the 47 different versions of this thread previously. The implication isn’t that God himself is stopping the alien abductions. It’s that the aliens are actually demons and invoking God‘s name you scare them off.

Yep. Almost like an exorcism.

I'm frankly just impressed that the aliens/demons understand English. I would have assumed the speaker would have had to say, ""Iehovah" at a minimum.

 

[massraider]

If I remember correctly from one of the 47 different versions of this thread previously. The implication isn’t that God himself is stopping the alien abductions. It’s that the aliens are actually demons and invoking God‘s name you scare them off.

I want to hear from the 'alien abductions are real but LOL they aren't demons' members of the audience.

 

[Navin Johnson]

If I remember correctly from one of the 47 different versions of this thread previously. The implication isn’t that God himself is stopping the alien abductions. It’s that the aliens are actually demons and invoking God‘s name you scare them off.

I want to hear from the 'alien abductions are real but LOL they aren't demons' members of the audience.

Personally, I have seen zero evidence of either.

 

[fatness]

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

Got a link?

I haven't been able to find such a study. I did find a video (which I have not watched) with a comment section full of people saying things similar to this.

 

[Paddington]

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

Got a link?

I haven't been able to find such a study. I did find a video (which I have not watched) with a comment section full of people saying things similar to this.

It's something I read years ago. I shared it a while back with a radio host, but I will try to find it.

 

[bolzano]

For sure, the question of how can God and Evil both exist is a huge question. And one that's been discussed forever it seems. Many credit Epicurus with "If God is all-powerful and all-good, why does evil exist?”

I wrestle with it too. I am regularly heartbroken by awful things I see happen in the world. From a Christian view, God gave us freedom of will, and freedom means people can choose evil. If He stopped every bad thing, He’d be taking away our ability to love or choose good at all. It's allowing free will. But it's painful.

The Christian belief isn’t that God just sits back. It’s that He steps into the suffering Himself when He sent Jesus.

I don’t always understand the why. I also understand I likely don't understand the full and complete picture.

But I totally get the questions. I wrestle with them too.

God allows evil to exist because he brings good out of it. Through evils, both natural and moral, we are disciplined and learn from our mistakes. Moreover, there are many virtues that would not exist sans evil (mercy, forgiveness, sacrifice, bravery, charity, and so on).

Indeed, the purpose of life is theosis, which is becoming closer to God (or more like God). That is, it’s all about perfecting ourselves- in particular, our mind/ soul (i.e., our intellect and will), and thus becoming wiser and more virtuous. So, a way of looking at evil is as a training/ learning tool.

 

[Paddington]

If I remember correctly from one of the 47 different versions of this thread previously. The implication isn’t that God himself is stopping the alien abductions. It’s that the aliens are actually demons and invoking God‘s name you scare them off.

I want to hear from the 'alien abductions are real but LOL they aren't demons' members of the audience.

Personally, I have seen zero evidence of either.

Anecdote story. When I was in my 20s, I was reaearching Aliens and was renting videos and such, watching them a lot. I
One night, I was in the middle of sleep and I suddenly became aware of my surroundings in my sleep. I felt a presence standing next to the bed beside me. It grabbed my arms and I struggled to pull them away. I felt literal pain from it grabbing my wrists so hard. Immediately, I woke up and my arms were tired and my upper wrist area felt like I had reall been in a struggle. Right then, I looked at my arms and bruises began to form in the exact spot that I had felt it grab me. I woke up my wife, who was on the other side of my from the incident and showed her the bruises and she saw them. I was up stairs, where it would be impossible for anyone to have snuck up there because the floors are so squeaky and loud. There was no sound. I knew right then that they were NOT Aliens, but they were demons. I have other demonic attacks after that where they tried to smother me in my sleep and yes, in my sleep I said "The Lord Rebuke You by the blood of Jesus Christ" and the attack immediately stopped. I think either God pushed them off me or He sent and angel to do it or maybe just His name alone pushed it off of me. Not sure, but I am fully convinced that Aliens are demonic. There is an agenda by satan to convince us that aliens are real. Notvsure why though.

 

[Navin Johnson]

If I remember correctly from one of the 47 different versions of this thread previously. The implication isn’t that God himself is stopping the alien abductions. It’s that the aliens are actually demons and invoking God‘s name you scare them off.

I want to hear from the 'alien abductions are real but LOL they aren't demons' members of the audience.

Personally, I have seen zero evidence of either.

Anecdote story. When I was in my 20s, I was reaearching Aliens and was renting videos and such, watching them a lot. I
One night, I was in the middle of sleep and I suddenly became aware of my surroundings in my sleep. I felt a presence standing next to the bed beside me. It grabbed my arms and I struggled to pull them away. I felt literal pain from it grabbing my wrists so hard. Immediately, I woke up and my arms were tired and my upper wrist area felt like I had reall been in a struggle. Right then, I looked at my arms and bruises began to form in the exact spot that I had felt it grab me. I woke up my wife, who was on the other side of my from the incident and showed her the bruises and she saw them. I was up stairs, where it would be impossible for anyone to have snuck up there because the floors are so squeaky and loud. There was no sound. I knew right then that they were NOT Aliens, but they were demons. I have other demonic attacks after that where they tried to smother me in my sleep and yes, in my sleep I said "The Lord Rebuke You by the blood of Jesus Christ" and the attack immediately stopped. I think either God pushed them off me or He sent and angel to do it or maybe just His name alone pushed it off of me. Not sure, but I am fully convinced that Aliens are demonic. There is an agenda by satan to convince us that aliens are real. Notvsure why though.

I think that bever actually happened.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Have you read the Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ?

Of course not. There are none! (And I have seen and read your list.)

Going back a month or so in order to add this link which I believe is not behind the paywall that says basically what I wrote during this conversation.

A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus: Our Non-Gospel Sources​

Part 2 is on the gospels.

Problems with the Gospels: A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus (Part 2)​

All of this is about trying to reconstruct the historical Jesus, the actual person and what we can actually say about him with confidence. It isn't so much about what the author's of the gospels are trying to communicate. The "Good News". Nor is it about the traditions and various religious teachings that developed since. Nor is it about what I ultimately believe. These are all different topics to me. One informs the other to an extent, but they also cloud each other.

Anyway, just wanted to add scholarly links on why I say that there are "no" early secular, and scant non secular writings to read "about Christ". There are some brief mentions of the man behind the movement, but what we can know about Jesus historically is very little.

But back the "God Problem" (how can there be suffering with an all-powerful, loving God?), the downside of apocalyptic ideas past and present (with possibly the "you must pick God and good or chose evil, no one can be in between" duality being the most problematic, and aliens, angels, and demons.

 

[Paddington]

Have you read the Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ?

Of course not. There are none! (And I have seen and read your list.)

Going back a month or so in order to add this link which I believe is not behind the paywall that says basically what I wrote during this conversation.

A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus: Our Non-Gospel Sources​

Part 2 is on the gospels.

Problems with the Gospels: A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus (Part 2)​

All of this is about trying to reconstruct the historical Jesus, the actual person and what we can actually say about him with confidence. It isn't so much about what the author's of the gospels are trying to communicate. The "Good News". Nor is it about the traditions and various religious teachings that developed since. Nor is it about what I ultimately believe. These are all different topics to me. One informs the other to an extent, but they also cloud each other.

Anyway, just wanted to add scholarly links on why I say that there are "no" early secular, and scant non secular writings to read "about Christ". There are some brief mentions of the man behind the movement, but what we can know about Jesus historically is very little.

But back the "God Problem" (how can there be suffering with an all-powerful, loving God?), the downside of apocalyptic ideas past and present (with possibly the "you must pick God and good or chose evil, no one can be in between" duality being the most problematic, and aliens, angels, and demons.

Neither of those links seem to offer any information. The writings in the link I sent do offer insight into the historical Jesus, also, the writings of Josephus talk about Christ and the early Church writings talk extensively about Jesus. The Non Cananical books such as the Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Judas, which I will admit are frauds and not written by those whose name they bare, however, they are early writings refarding Christ and at a minimum affirm His existence and that He was believed to be the Son of God and performed miracles. That He was worshipped. So, the evidence is quite extensive after all.

 

[RCon]

There was an interesting study several years ago that whenever the name of Christ was invoked during a UFO/Alien abduction, the abduction immediately stopped. Now why would that be? I tell you why, because they are demonic and demons hate God. God is stronger.

Got a link?

I haven't been able to find such a study. I did find a video (which I have not watched) with a comment section full of people saying things similar to this.

It's something I read years ago. I shared it a while back with a radio host, but I will try to find it.

I suspect no such study exists, or at least, if one does, it is not peer reviewed and thoroughly vetted. At best, it would be a series of anecdotal tales by the least reliable sources possible.

That said, it does make sense to me that those with exceptionally strong belief in god, Jesus, demons, hell, angels, etc. would report occurrences such as this. Put simply, if a person invents an imaginary occurrence such as an alien abduction, and that person is a strong believer, it makes sense that the person would believe invoking their beliefs might stop the imaginary occurrence. The person would act on those beliefs, the imagination would do its thing, and the occurrence, which wasn't real to begin with, would "stop".

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Have you read the Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ?

Of course not. There are none! (And I have seen and read your list.)

Going back a month or so in order to add this link which I believe is not behind the paywall that says basically what I wrote during this conversation.

A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus: Our Non-Gospel Sources​

Part 2 is on the gospels.

Problems with the Gospels: A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus (Part 2)​

All of this is about trying to reconstruct the historical Jesus, the actual person and what we can actually say about him with confidence. It isn't so much about what the author's of the gospels are trying to communicate. The "Good News". Nor is it about the traditions and various religious teachings that developed since. Nor is it about what I ultimately believe. These are all different topics to me. One informs the other to an extent, but they also cloud each other.

Anyway, just wanted to add scholarly links on why I say that there are "no" early secular, and scant non secular writings to read "about Christ". There are some brief mentions of the man behind the movement, but what we can know about Jesus historically is very little.

But back the "God Problem" (how can there be suffering with an all-powerful, loving God?), the downside of apocalyptic ideas past and present (with possibly the "you must pick God and good or chose evil, no one can be in between" duality being the most problematic, and aliens, angels, and demons.

Neither of those links seem to offer any information. The writings in the link I sent do offer insight into the historical Jesus, also, the writings of Josephus talk about Christ and the early Church writings talk extensively about Jesus. The Non Cananical books such as the Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Judas, which I will admit are frauds and not written by those whose name they bare, however, they are early writings refarding Christ and at a minimum affirm His existence and that He was believed to be the Son of God and performed miracles. That He was worshipped. So, the evidence is quite extensive after all.

I don't want to rehash, but this was not the claim you were supporting based on these sources. I don't believe that anyone participating in this thread rejects that Jesus existed (in some form), had followers, was crucified. After that his followers expanded, sometimes rapidly, mostly slow and steadily, such that they ultimately took over the Roman empire (for better or worse) based largely on the idea that Jesus was resurrected and the concepts that follow this belief. If there are such doubters, the I'd suggest they go to this site (my malware software balked at the current link so using an archive.org version).

As a reminder you pulled out the Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ link as evidence that the New Testament was written entirely by eyewitnesses, and then later as evidence to support "He is the true and living God of the Bible". Jesus existing, had followers before and after being crucified that believed various things does not support either of these claims.

And my point, as someone that goes to a church where one of the answers, one of not the only answer as to "Why is Jesus important" is because through Jesus is the best way to understand and know God. If that is true, and for me it is then understanding Jesus the best is to understand the Jesus that really walked the earth. The historical Jesus. But that Jesus, outside of a few things we can reasonably argue is true (from a historian's perspective rather than a theologian's) is rather limited. So, from there one must move on to the Gospels and the tradition from the church fathers up to modern times and maybe a few suspect heretical sources. All of these sources have clear and obvious flaws that one needs to account for. But the quest of understanding and knowing God via Jesus runs predominantly through these flawed sources and, absent throwing one's hands up in the air and rejecting it all as too fatally flawed to be useful for much of anything, this is what we have.

As someone who simply cannot shake "belief", I really wish that the evidence was on my side but the evidence I can readily share is not. The evidence that keeps me where I am is all internal and only makes sense to those that already believe or are already leaning on the fence. Otherwise, my beliefs are "crazy" even sometimes "stupid", even to me. Maybe one day that inner belief fades away and the faith will be gone leading me to the obvious logical conclusion that what Jesus and I had most in common is a belief in a nonexistent god. Maybe! In the meantime, I just need to be honest and admit that I believe in crazy, even stupid stuff where the evidence is almost entirely inside of me and the bits and pieces that can be evaluated by others is not all that convincing. And ultimately live to the best of my ability to "love my neighbor", to be an example of what I think a Christian should be as opposed to the Christian that others see most often.

And finally trust that the story of the prodigal son repeats itself outside the "pearly gates" over and over and over as those that rejected God squandered their earthly inheritance or relationships are embraced, even celebrated into heaven, whatever that might be. And hopefully, if this is the case I'm not too upset that the celebration of my arrival is muted or even non-existent. In other words, trusting that God loves his children even those that want nothing to do with him.

 

[Paddington]

Have you read the Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ?

Of course not. There are none! (And I have seen and read your list.)

Going back a month or so in order to add this link which I believe is not behind the paywall that says basically what I wrote during this conversation.

A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus: Our Non-Gospel Sources​

Part 2 is on the gospels.

Problems with the Gospels: A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus (Part 2)​

All of this is about trying to reconstruct the historical Jesus, the actual person and what we can actually say about him with confidence. It isn't so much about what the author's of the gospels are trying to communicate. The "Good News". Nor is it about the traditions and various religious teachings that developed since. Nor is it about what I ultimately believe. These are all different topics to me. One informs the other to an extent, but they also cloud each other.

Anyway, just wanted to add scholarly links on why I say that there are "no" early secular, and scant non secular writings to read "about Christ". There are some brief mentions of the man behind the movement, but what we can know about Jesus historically is very little.

But back the "God Problem" (how can there be suffering with an all-powerful, loving God?), the downside of apocalyptic ideas past and present (with possibly the "you must pick God and good or chose evil, no one can be in between" duality being the most problematic, and aliens, angels, and demons.

Neither of those links seem to offer any information. The writings in the link I sent do offer insight into the historical Jesus, also, the writings of Josephus talk about Christ and the early Church writings talk extensively about Jesus. The Non Cananical books such as the Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Judas, which I will admit are frauds and not written by those whose name they bare, however, they are early writings refarding Christ and at a minimum affirm His existence and that He was believed to be the Son of God and performed miracles. That He was worshipped. So, the evidence is quite extensive after all.

I don't want to rehash, but this was not the claim you were supporting based on these sources. I don't believe that anyone participating in this thread rejects that Jesus existed (in some form), had followers, was crucified. After that his followers expanded, sometimes rapidly, mostly slow and steadily, such that they ultimately took over the Roman empire (for better or worse) based largely on the idea that Jesus was resurrected and the concepts that follow this belief. If there are such doubters, the I'd suggest they go to this site (my malware software balked at the current link so using an archive.org version).

As a reminder you pulled out the Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ link as evidence that the New Testament was written entirely by eyewitnesses, and then later as evidence to support "He is the true and living God of the Bible". Jesus existing, had followers before and after being crucified that believed various things does not support either of these claims.

And my point, as someone that goes to a church where one of the answers, one of not the only answer as to "Why is Jesus important" is because through Jesus is the best way to understand and know God. If that is true, and for me it is then understanding Jesus the best is to understand the Jesus that really walked the earth. The historical Jesus. But that Jesus, outside of a few things we can reasonably argue is true (from a historian's perspective rather than a theologian's) is rather limited. So, from there one must move on to the Gospels and the tradition from the church fathers up to modern times and maybe a few suspect heretical sources. All of these sources have clear and obvious flaws that one needs to account for. But the quest of understanding and knowing God via Jesus runs predominantly through these flawed sources and, absent throwing one's hands up in the air and rejecting it all as too fatally flawed to be useful for much of anything, this is what we have.

As someone who simply cannot shake "belief", I really wish that the evidence was on my side but the evidence I can readily share is not. The evidence that keeps me where I am is all internal and only makes sense to those that already believe or are already leaning on the fence. Otherwise, my beliefs are "crazy" even sometimes "stupid", even to me. Maybe one day that inner belief fades away and the faith will be gone leading me to the obvious logical conclusion that what Jesus and I had most in common is a belief in a nonexistent god. Maybe! In the meantime, I just need to be honest and admit that I believe in crazy, even stupid stuff where the evidence is almost entirely inside of me and the bits and pieces that can be evaluated by others is not all that convincing. And ultimately live to the best of my ability to "love my neighbor", to be an example of what I think a Christian should be as opposed to the Christian that others see most often.

And finally trust that the story of the prodigal son repeats itself outside the "pearly gates" over and over and over as those that rejected God squandered their earthly inheritance or relationships are embraced, even celebrated into heaven, whatever that might be. And hopefully, if this is the case I'm not too upset that the celebration of my arrival is muted or even non-existent. In other words, trusting that God loves his children even those that want nothing to do with him.

But the New Testament and the rest of the Bible was written by the actual eyewitnesses tonthe events. That was one of the criteria for them being included in the Biblical canon in the forst place. They had to be written by an Apostle or an associate of an Apostle, the only exceptions were James and Jude who were half brothers of Jesus. I don’t need to believe in spite of the evidence because the actual evidence is on the side of the Bible being true. Jesus is God in the flesh. He died and rose again and the reason that Christianity spread like wildfire and didn't die out is exactly because He rose from the dead. If He hadn't, then people would have known that He was a liar. But He was not a liar.

God has revealed Himself to me on very real, tangible ways. He spoke to me in 2001 and told to to go back to a certain Church I had visited. He saved my life in 2003 when I was going to go to a store where several people were murdered, but things happened and I stayed home. The killers mother went to my Church and was on the prayer list. He saved my life a few months ago in another Church where a gunman tried to kill us all. His weapon was automatic. Many other things. He has performed miracles in my family that are undeniable. I can exapand on these things if you wisn, but God is REAL and I don't need to have blind faith against logic. The evidence is there and it's overwhelming actually.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Have you read the Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ?

Of course not. There are none! (And I have seen and read your list.)

Going back a month or so in order to add this link which I believe is not behind the paywall that says basically what I wrote during this conversation.

A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus: Our Non-Gospel Sources​

Part 2 is on the gospels.

Problems with the Gospels: A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus (Part 2)​

All of this is about trying to reconstruct the historical Jesus, the actual person and what we can actually say about him with confidence. It isn't so much about what the author's of the gospels are trying to communicate. The "Good News". Nor is it about the traditions and various religious teachings that developed since. Nor is it about what I ultimately believe. These are all different topics to me. One informs the other to an extent, but they also cloud each other.

Anyway, just wanted to add scholarly links on why I say that there are "no" early secular, and scant non secular writings to read "about Christ". There are some brief mentions of the man behind the movement, but what we can know about Jesus historically is very little.

But back the "God Problem" (how can there be suffering with an all-powerful, loving God?), the downside of apocalyptic ideas past and present (with possibly the "you must pick God and good or chose evil, no one can be in between" duality being the most problematic, and aliens, angels, and demons.

Neither of those links seem to offer any information. The writings in the link I sent do offer insight into the historical Jesus, also, the writings of Josephus talk about Christ and the early Church writings talk extensively about Jesus. The Non Cananical books such as the Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Judas, which I will admit are frauds and not written by those whose name they bare, however, they are early writings refarding Christ and at a minimum affirm His existence and that He was believed to be the Son of God and performed miracles. That He was worshipped. So, the evidence is quite extensive after all.

I don't want to rehash, but this was not the claim you were supporting based on these sources. I don't believe that anyone participating in this thread rejects that Jesus existed (in some form), had followers, was crucified. After that his followers expanded, sometimes rapidly, mostly slow and steadily, such that they ultimately took over the Roman empire (for better or worse) based largely on the idea that Jesus was resurrected and the concepts that follow this belief. If there are such doubters, the I'd suggest they go to this site (my malware software balked at the current link so using an archive.org version).

As a reminder you pulled out the Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ link as evidence that the New Testament was written entirely by eyewitnesses, and then later as evidence to support "He is the true and living God of the Bible". Jesus existing, had followers before and after being crucified that believed various things does not support either of these claims.

And my point, as someone that goes to a church where one of the answers, one of not the only answer as to "Why is Jesus important" is because through Jesus is the best way to understand and know God. If that is true, and for me it is then understanding Jesus the best is to understand the Jesus that really walked the earth. The historical Jesus. But that Jesus, outside of a few things we can reasonably argue is true (from a historian's perspective rather than a theologian's) is rather limited. So, from there one must move on to the Gospels and the tradition from the church fathers up to modern times and maybe a few suspect heretical sources. All of these sources have clear and obvious flaws that one needs to account for. But the quest of understanding and knowing God via Jesus runs predominantly through these flawed sources and, absent throwing one's hands up in the air and rejecting it all as too fatally flawed to be useful for much of anything, this is what we have.

As someone who simply cannot shake "belief", I really wish that the evidence was on my side but the evidence I can readily share is not. The evidence that keeps me where I am is all internal and only makes sense to those that already believe or are already leaning on the fence. Otherwise, my beliefs are "crazy" even sometimes "stupid", even to me. Maybe one day that inner belief fades away and the faith will be gone leading me to the obvious logical conclusion that what Jesus and I had most in common is a belief in a nonexistent god. Maybe! In the meantime, I just need to be honest and admit that I believe in crazy, even stupid stuff where the evidence is almost entirely inside of me and the bits and pieces that can be evaluated by others is not all that convincing. And ultimately live to the best of my ability to "love my neighbor", to be an example of what I think a Christian should be as opposed to the Christian that others see most often.

And finally trust that the story of the prodigal son repeats itself outside the "pearly gates" over and over and over as those that rejected God squandered their earthly inheritance or relationships are embraced, even celebrated into heaven, whatever that might be. And hopefully, if this is the case I'm not too upset that the celebration of my arrival is muted or even non-existent. In other words, trusting that God loves his children even those that want nothing to do with him.

But the New Testament and the rest of the Bible was written by the actual eyewitnesses tonthe events. That was one of the criteria for them being included in the Biblical canon in the forst place. They had to be written by an Apostle or an associate of an Apostle, the only exceptions were James and Jude who were half brothers of Jesus. I don’t need to believe in spite of the evidence because the actual evidence is on the side of the Bible being true. Jesus is God in the flesh. He died and rose again and the reason that Christianity spread like wildfire and didn't die out is exactly because He rose from the dead. If He hadn't, then people would have known that He was a liar. But He was not a liar.

God has revealed Himself to me on very real, tangible ways. He spoke to me in 2001 and told to to go back to a certain Church I had visited. He saved my life in 2003 when I was going to go to a store where several people were murdered, but things happened and I stayed home. The killers mother went to my Church and was on the prayer list. He saved my life a few months ago in another Church where a gunman tried to kill us all. His weapon was automatic. Many other things. He has performed miracles in my family that are undeniable. I can exapand on these things if you wisn, but God is REAL and I don't need to have blind faith against logic. The evidence is there and it's overwhelming actually.

Big Picture thought - I think we do well when we talk about this topic in terms of what you yourself have experienced. Like Paddington is here.

I think that's an interesting and compelling way to add to the conversation when we talk about what things have actually happened to us. People sharing their experiences help us understand each other. And of course, that doesn't mean others have to have the same experience. And obviously, it's a sample size of one. But it's personal. And I think it's helpful to talk sometimes in what we've actually experienced.

 

[Godsbrother]

Okay this thread has taken a bizarre turn.

 

[RCon]

Big Picture thought - I think we do well when we talk about this topic in terms of what you yourself have experienced. Like Paddington is here.

I think that's an interesting and compelling way to add to the conversation when we talk about what things have actually happened to us. People sharing their experiences help us understand each other. And of course, that doesn't mean others have to have the same experience. And obviously, it's a sample size of one. But it's personal. And I think it's helpful to talk sometimes in what we've actually experienced.

Couldn't disagree more, actually.

When someone says "God helped me", that is entirely unpersuasive and useless to a non-believer because there's nothing but the person's belief to back it up. It's the equivalent of saying "the Flying Spaghetti Monster helped me" or "a purple alien helped me". If anything, it's an instant way to end meaningful conversation on the subject. If I said "Odin spoke to me, saved my life, and told me specifically that the Christian god does not actually exist", would you consider that compelling in any way whatsoever? Would it be evidence of the existence of Odin and non-existence of a Christian god?

 

[Northern Voice]

Have you read the Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ?

Of course not. There are none! (And I have seen and read your list.)

Going back a month or so in order to add this link which I believe is not behind the paywall that says basically what I wrote during this conversation.

A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus: Our Non-Gospel Sources​

Part 2 is on the gospels.

Problems with the Gospels: A Primer for the Study of the Historical Jesus (Part 2)​

All of this is about trying to reconstruct the historical Jesus, the actual person and what we can actually say about him with confidence. It isn't so much about what the author's of the gospels are trying to communicate. The "Good News". Nor is it about the traditions and various religious teachings that developed since. Nor is it about what I ultimately believe. These are all different topics to me. One informs the other to an extent, but they also cloud each other.

Anyway, just wanted to add scholarly links on why I say that there are "no" early secular, and scant non secular writings to read "about Christ". There are some brief mentions of the man behind the movement, but what we can know about Jesus historically is very little.

But back the "God Problem" (how can there be suffering with an all-powerful, loving God?), the downside of apocalyptic ideas past and present (with possibly the "you must pick God and good or chose evil, no one can be in between" duality being the most problematic, and aliens, angels, and demons.

Neither of those links seem to offer any information. The writings in the link I sent do offer insight into the historical Jesus, also, the writings of Josephus talk about Christ and the early Church writings talk extensively about Jesus. The Non Cananical books such as the Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Judas, which I will admit are frauds and not written by those whose name they bare, however, they are early writings refarding Christ and at a minimum affirm His existence and that He was believed to be the Son of God and performed miracles. That He was worshipped. So, the evidence is quite extensive after all.

I don't want to rehash, but this was not the claim you were supporting based on these sources. I don't believe that anyone participating in this thread rejects that Jesus existed (in some form), had followers, was crucified. After that his followers expanded, sometimes rapidly, mostly slow and steadily, such that they ultimately took over the Roman empire (for better or worse) based largely on the idea that Jesus was resurrected and the concepts that follow this belief. If there are such doubters, the I'd suggest they go to this site (my malware software balked at the current link so using an archive.org version).

As a reminder you pulled out the Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ link as evidence that the New Testament was written entirely by eyewitnesses, and then later as evidence to support "He is the true and living God of the Bible". Jesus existing, had followers before and after being crucified that believed various things does not support either of these claims.

And my point, as someone that goes to a church where one of the answers, one of not the only answer as to "Why is Jesus important" is because through Jesus is the best way to understand and know God. If that is true, and for me it is then understanding Jesus the best is to understand the Jesus that really walked the earth. The historical Jesus. But that Jesus, outside of a few things we can reasonably argue is true (from a historian's perspective rather than a theologian's) is rather limited. So, from there one must move on to the Gospels and the tradition from the church fathers up to modern times and maybe a few suspect heretical sources. All of these sources have clear and obvious flaws that one needs to account for. But the quest of understanding and knowing God via Jesus runs predominantly through these flawed sources and, absent throwing one's hands up in the air and rejecting it all as too fatally flawed to be useful for much of anything, this is what we have.

As someone who simply cannot shake "belief", I really wish that the evidence was on my side but the evidence I can readily share is not. The evidence that keeps me where I am is all internal and only makes sense to those that already believe or are already leaning on the fence. Otherwise, my beliefs are "crazy" even sometimes "stupid", even to me. Maybe one day that inner belief fades away and the faith will be gone leading me to the obvious logical conclusion that what Jesus and I had most in common is a belief in a nonexistent god. Maybe! In the meantime, I just need to be honest and admit that I believe in crazy, even stupid stuff where the evidence is almost entirely inside of me and the bits and pieces that can be evaluated by others is not all that convincing. And ultimately live to the best of my ability to "love my neighbor", to be an example of what I think a Christian should be as opposed to the Christian that others see most often.

And finally trust that the story of the prodigal son repeats itself outside the "pearly gates" over and over and over as those that rejected God squandered their earthly inheritance or relationships are embraced, even celebrated into heaven, whatever that might be. And hopefully, if this is the case I'm not too upset that the celebration of my arrival is muted or even non-existent. In other words, trusting that God loves his children even those that want nothing to do with him.

He saved my life in 2003 when I was going to go to a store where several people were murdered, but things happened and I stayed home. The killers mother went to my Church and was on the prayer list. He saved my life a few months ago in another Church where a gunman tried to kill us all. His weapon was automatic.

Is it typical for you folks in the USA to have this many near murder experiences?

 

[massraider]

But the New Testament and the rest of the Bible was written by the actual eyewitnesses tonthe events

Earliest book in the New Testament was published 50+ years after Jesus' death. And the others were much later.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Couldn't disagree more, actually.

Thanks. And no worries. I do think hearing from people and their experiences is useful and helpful.

 

[Gally]

Couldn't disagree more, actually.

Thanks. And no worries. I do think hearing from people and their experiences is useful and helpful.

Its interesting for sure but i don't think it is helpful when discussing whether or not God exists. Much of what was stated as personal experiences are kind of after the fact coincidences. Intuition type of things. Very interesting but I am not sure it is helpful to non-believers when trying to find proof of the existence of God.

Just because I was going to go someplace that ended up having something happen and someone dying doesn't prove God exists. I am sure Paddington believes that is proof and for him it may as well be. He is looking for that type of proof and can equate him "things happened causing him to stay home" with God making that happen. But if you don't believe in God it just means you had stuff to do and ended up not going to the store. Not exactly "proof" of anything to a non-believer.

So while personal experiences are interesting to discuss they aren't exactly proof of anything.

 

[Joe Bryant]

So while personal experiences are interesting to discuss they aren't exactly proof of anything.

Of course. I'm talking about in the context of understanding and discussing. Maybe I didn't understand the thread but I didn't see it as trying to prove something.

 

[Juxtatarot]

One of many things I don’t get is the point of it all. From a cosmic viewpoint, we are only alive for a tiny blip of time. Heck, even life on earth will be around for a tiny, short period compared to the unknown lifespan of the universe. Apparently we’ll be in heaven or hell for eternity. Yet God creates this test for us on earth?

 

[Gally]

So while personal experiences are interesting to discuss they aren't exactly proof of anything.

Of course. I'm talking about in the context of understanding and discussing. Maybe I didn't understand the thread but I didn't see it as trying to prove something.

I am not sure that the thread set out to prove anything but as the discussion has ebbed and flowed some of the discussion has veered towards whether or not God exists and what proof there is one way or the other. Much of what Paddington states is that his experiences prove without a doubt that God exists.

 

[Scoresman]

Big Picture thought - I think we do well when we talk about this topic in terms of what you yourself have experienced. Like Paddington is here.

I think that's an interesting and compelling way to add to the conversation when we talk about what things have actually happened to us. People sharing their experiences help us understand each other. And of course, that doesn't mean others have to have the same experience. And obviously, it's a sample size of one. But it's personal. And I think it's helpful to talk sometimes in what we've actually experienced.

Couldn't disagree more, actually.

When someone says "God helped me", that is entirely unpersuasive and useless to a non-believer because there's nothing but the person's belief to back it up. It's the equivalent of saying "the Flying Spaghetti Monster helped me" or "a purple alien helped me". If anything, it's an instant way to end meaningful conversation on the subject. If I said "Odin spoke to me, saved my life, and told me specifically that the Christian god does not actually exist", would you consider that compelling in any way whatsoever? Would it be evidence of the existence of Odin and non-existence of a Christian god?

It depends if you're reading this thread through a lens of "I'm looking for evidence of the existence of God" vs. "I'm looking for examples of people's personal relationship with their belief in God".

If you're looking for evidence, then I completely agree with you, but for the latter, it's kind of interesting to see.

 

[Gally]

One of many things I don’t get is the point of it all. From a cosmic viewpoint, we are only alive for a tiny blip of time. Heck, even life on earth will be around for a tiny, short period compared to the unknown lifespan of the universe. Apparently we’ll be in heaven or hell for eternity. Yet God creates this test for us on earth?

The point of it all is that people generally need a purpose and a "point to it all". Going around day to day with the understanding that we are just dust in the wind is hard for most people to come to grips with.

 

[dgreen]

But the New Testament and the rest of the Bible was written by the actual eyewitnesses tonthe events

Earliest book in the New Testament was published 50+ years after Jesus' death. And the others were much later.

Do you have a link for this? I’ve never seen dates that late for the earliest.