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After 9 seasons, is Ray Lewis... (1 Viewer)

Is Ray Ray the best MLB ever?

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as someone else posted in the all-time FFA draft thread...
I just searched for the thread in question, as I hadn't paid attention to it before.Here are where some of the outstanding all-time LBs were drafted:

1.4 Bogart (Funkley): Lawrence Taylor

1.8 Aaron Rudnicki: **** Butkus

2.10 mrharrier (Capella): Ray Nitschke

2.11 Bluesbomber (Notorious T.R.E): Jack Lambert

3.1 ColtsFreak (Wheelhouse): Ray Lewis

3.4 Bogart (Funkley): Mike Singletary

4.2 Spladow!: Jack Ham

5.5 dgreen: Sam Huff

5.9 Swampdawg: Chuck Bednarik

5.10 cosjobs (Merchant): Kevin Greene

5.11 Spladow!: Bobby Bell

6.3 cosjobs (Merchant): Derrick Thomas

6.7 Clark Griswold (Drifter): Junior Seau

6.10 mrharrier (Capella): Derrick Brooks

As an aside, some value picks that I liked in that draft were:

1.2 Bluesbomber (Notorious T.R.E): Jim Brown ;)

2.9 Bogart (Funkley): Deion Sanders

3.5 dgreen: John Hannah

7.5 dgreen: Marshall Faulk

8.1 Andy Dufresne (Yankee23Fan): Randy Moss

9.7 Koya (Orange Crush): Dwight Stephenson

13.8 Aaron Rudnicki: Jonathan Ogden

15.10 cosjobs (Merchant): Ray Guy

20.10 mrharrier (Capella): Ed Reed

21.3 mrharrier (Capella): Walter Jones

25.8 Aaron Rudnicki: Dan Fouts

25.11 Spladow!: Peyton Manning

26.7 Clark Griswold (Drifter): Bo Jackson

36.2 Spladow!: Coy Bacon

38.3 cosjobs (Merchant): Willie Buchanon

LINK to the draft

 
Butkus was my 1st round pick in the all-time NFL draft we did in the FFA recently.

I thought this article did a great job of explaining his dominance.

In 1970, a panel of NFL coaches voted Butkus the player they would start with if they were building a new team from scratch.
That's an unfair quote to include in your argument. Nothing that happened post-1970 is taken into account. I'd be curious to see a similar poll of current coaches.
#1 I don't have the ability to rewrite articles that were posted on ESPN.com.#2 I don't have the resources to do a similar poll now.

#3 It clearly shows how dominant he was during his time.

The only way to compare players across eras is by looking at how much they dominated their respective level of competition. I think Butkus has Ray beat in that area by a wide margin, IMO.
Then why do I routinely get heckled when I tell people that Babe Ruth was far better than Barry Bonds? Ruth out-homered most other TEAMS in the league when he was playing... not just other players.
Bonds is better, but Ruth is greater. Bonds is more talented than Ruth was, particularly when you consider all the "tools", but the gap between Ruth and his peers was much larger... Gretsky-like.
 
Butkus was my 1st round pick in the all-time NFL draft we did in the FFA recently.

I thought this article did a great job of explaining his dominance.

In 1970, a panel of NFL coaches voted Butkus the player they would start with if they were building a new team from scratch.
That's an unfair quote to include in your argument. Nothing that happened post-1970 is taken into account. I'd be curious to see a similar poll of current coaches.
A poll of today's coaches would merely be overweighted towards players from the 80s forward, who played while they coached. There is no way to poll coaches and GMs and get a fair result IMO.
 
Butkus was my 1st round pick in the all-time NFL draft we did in the FFA recently.

I thought this article did a great job of explaining his dominance.

In 1970, a panel of NFL coaches voted Butkus the player they would start with if they were building a new team from scratch.
That's an unfair quote to include in your argument. Nothing that happened post-1970 is taken into account. I'd be curious to see a similar poll of current coaches.
A poll of today's coaches would merely be overweighted towards players from the 80s forward, who played while they coached. There is no way to poll coaches and GMs and get a fair result IMO.
It might not be as skewed as you expect. There are still plenty of old-schoolers like Gibbs, Parcells, Belichick, Vermeil and Schottenheimer roaming the sidelines, and they would certainly fondly remember the players of days gone by.
 
Butkus was my 1st round pick in the all-time NFL draft we did in the FFA recently.

I thought this article did a great job of explaining his dominance.

In 1970, a panel of NFL coaches voted Butkus the player they would start with if they were building a new team from scratch.
That's an unfair quote to include in your argument. Nothing that happened post-1970 is taken into account. I'd be curious to see a similar poll of current coaches.
#1 I don't have the ability to rewrite articles that were posted on ESPN.com.#2 I don't have the resources to do a similar poll now.

#3 It clearly shows how dominant he was during his time.

The only way to compare players across eras is by looking at how much they dominated their respective level of competition. I think Butkus has Ray beat in that area by a wide margin, IMO.
Then why do I routinely get heckled when I tell people that Babe Ruth was far better than Barry Bonds? Ruth out-homered most other TEAMS in the league when he was playing... not just other players.
Bonds is better, but Ruth is greater. Bonds is more talented than Ruth was, particularly when you consider all the "tools", but the gap between Ruth and his peers was much larger... Gretsky-like.
Do you really think Ruth would be hitting 200 HRs if he played today? I'm a big Ruth fan, but also a big Bonds fan. Comparing them is very difficult, so I won't hijack here.jwvdcw,

Can you get us the splits on the Ravens D with and without Ray Lewis in 2002?

And why is Ray being found not guilty carry more weight than OJ being found not guilty?

 
Butkus was my 1st round pick in the all-time NFL draft we did in the FFA recently.

I thought this article did a great job of explaining his dominance.

In 1970, a panel of NFL coaches voted Butkus the player they would start with if they were building a new team from scratch.
That's an unfair quote to include in your argument. Nothing that happened post-1970 is taken into account. I'd be curious to see a similar poll of current coaches.
#1 I don't have the ability to rewrite articles that were posted on ESPN.com.#2 I don't have the resources to do a similar poll now.

#3 It clearly shows how dominant he was during his time.

The only way to compare players across eras is by looking at how much they dominated their respective level of competition. I think Butkus has Ray beat in that area by a wide margin, IMO.
Then why do I routinely get heckled when I tell people that Babe Ruth was far better than Barry Bonds? Ruth out-homered most other TEAMS in the league when he was playing... not just other players.
Bonds is better, but Ruth is greater. Bonds is more talented than Ruth was, particularly when you consider all the "tools", but the gap between Ruth and his peers was much larger... Gretsky-like.
Do you really think Ruth would be hitting 200 HRs if he played today? I'm a big Ruth fan, but also a big Bonds fan. Comparing them is very difficult, so I won't hijack here.
No, of course not. With the juiced balls, watered down pitching and small ballparks of today, he'd hit 300 HRs! ;)
 
And why is Ray being found not guilty carry more weight than OJ being found not guilty?
in one case, the real killers were caught and are in jail. in the other case, the real killer is playing golf every day and collecting his NFL pension.
 
I'm always surprised at the love Singletary(probably my FAVORITE LB, but certainly not the best) and LT get in any discussions about Ray Lewis. Singletary was great in term of leadership and run support but was nowhere NEAR the athlete Lewis is even when Lewis is playing injured. Anyone who seriously thinks Singletary could drop into coverage the way Ray Lewis can is completely kidding themselves. I think sometimes people give Singletary too much credit on the football field for the guy he was off the football field. Similary, LT was the best pass rushing LB and another great leader but he had holes in his game. LT was good at run support but nowhere near as good as Singletary and Lewis. Forget about LT in coverage. Deion Sanders tackling = LT in coverage. That's what makes Lewis so great. He can do it all. Probably plays the ball as well as any LB I've ever watched which is astonishing when you consider he's also the best run stuffing LB. When I see that guy in coverage it's amazing a guy that big, that hits that hard can cover 3rd down backs and TE's. Kind of boils down to the "best CB ever" thread. Do you like guys that do SOME things GREAT, and are average at best in other areas? Or do you prefer guys that have no weaknesses at their position. Lewis has no weaknesses.

 
jwvdcw,

Can you get us the splits on the Ravens D with and without Ray Lewis in 2002?
One thing to remember about the Ravens in 2002 was that it was the "purge" season. They had cut many of the vets that had been on the SB team. I believe they played in 2002 with something like 30 UFAs or rookies. You can't attribute their low ranking on D that year solely to Lewis being hurt - they had gutted the team.
 
And why is Ray being found not guilty carry more weight than OJ being found not guilty?
in one case, the real killers were caught and are in jail. in the other case, the real killer is playing golf every day and collecting his NFL pension.
:goodposting:
 
jwvdcw,

Can you get us the splits on the Ravens D with and without Ray Lewis in 2002?
One thing to remember about the Ravens in 2002 was that it was the "purge" season...I believe they played in 2002 with something like 30 UFAs or rookies.
actually, 17 UFA's/drafted rookiesI did mean to mention this earlier, U-H...good call on your part

 
a couple points:

---Ray Lewis has played 6 of 9 seasons in the 4-3 ( 1996-2001), and 3 more in a 3-4 (2002-2004)

scheme is very important at looking at these guys, as there is another LB clogging the middle (Ed Hartwell in this case, who was good enough for the Falcons to throw $26M at)

our most recent memories of him are in this 'shared success set', where Hartwell has logged well over 300 tackles

---on cross generation comparisons...

the guys at 'that time', when ever it was, was working with the best equipment of that time...to assume they's be the same size today as then is irroneous, IMO, because the supplements/diets/workouts, etc were not available

how can we assume they'd be 'as slow', 'as small', etc

that said, and as good as Butkus was, he had much better material (teammates) to start with...which leads to my final point

---Ray Lewis anchors what is considered the 'best' defense over the last 5 yrs, or certainly top 2 or 3, if you have an issue w/calling the Ravens 'the best'

keep in mind Lewis anchored a 'record setting defense' long before the 2000 unit...

...the 1996 team allowed an NFL record 400+ (like ~446) points against

it is this difference, IMO, that seperates what Ray Lewis meant to this team, and what Butkus meant to his great teammates, and what makes Lewis 'the best' MLB

 
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Then why do I routinely get heckled when I tell people that Babe Ruth was far better than Barry Bonds? Ruth out-homered most other TEAMS in the league when he was playing... not just other players.
Bonds is better, but Ruth is greater. Bonds is more talented than Ruth was, particularly when you consider all the "tools", but the gap between Ruth and his peers was much larger... Gretsky-like.
Do you really think Ruth would be hitting 200 HRs if he played today? I'm a big Ruth fan, but also a big Bonds fan. Comparing them is very difficult, so I won't hijack here.
:confused: How did you get that out of what I said? No, he wouldn't hit 200 HRs today. But I certainly wouldn't assume that he would not be as dominant or more dominant than Bonds in this era. Because all we can do is speculate about how Ruth would be different physically if he played today vice in the 20s, the only appropriate way to compare them is to look at their performances relative to their peers. And there Ruth blows Bonds away.

 
I may be a bit biased being a die hard Eagles fan. During the 80's, no one struck fear in offenses quite like LT. He was indefensible. An incredible qb killer. He transcended the game. Ray is very good,one of the best. But Ray scares no one, nor does he change the game. He is just a very good,solid LB. Ray doesnt really compare to LT as far as being the best. IMO

 
I may be a bit biased being a die hard Eagles fan. During the 80's, no one struck fear in offenses quite like LT. He was indefensible. An incredible qb killer. He transcended the game. Ray is very good,one of the best. But Ray scares no one, nor does he change the game. He is just a very good,solid LB.

Ray doesnt really compare to LT as far as being the best. IMO
this has been mentioned several times...we're talking MLB heremost, if not all of us aggree that the line for best LB of all time starts w/LT

 
Randy Gradishar has put up better stats than Lewis - and he's not even the HoF. He was as much of a team guy & leader as Lewis, but didn't draw attention to himself on the field every time he made a great play.

If Gradishar can't make the HoF, how can Lewis possibly be the best MLB ever?

Randy Gradishar

10 seasons

145 games (all consecutive - never missed a game)

2049 tackles

20 INTs

13 fumble recoveries

3 TDs

Ray Lewis

9 seasons

125 games

1210 tackles

20 INTs

9 fumble recoveries

1 TD

 
jwvdcw,

Can you get us the splits on the Ravens D with and without Ray Lewis in 2002?
One thing to remember about the Ravens in 2002 was that it was the "purge" season. They had cut many of the vets that had been on the SB team. I believe they played in 2002 with something like 30 UFAs or rookies. You can't attribute their low ranking on D that year solely to Lewis being hurt - they had gutted the team.
:goodposting:
 
Butkus was my 1st round pick in the all-time NFL draft we did in the FFA recently.

I thought this article did a great job of explaining his dominance.

In 1970, a panel of NFL coaches voted Butkus the player they would start with if they were building a new team from scratch.
That's an unfair quote to include in your argument. Nothing that happened post-1970 is taken into account. I'd be curious to see a similar poll of current coaches.
#1 I don't have the ability to rewrite articles that were posted on ESPN.com.#2 I don't have the resources to do a similar poll now.

#3 It clearly shows how dominant he was during his time.

The only way to compare players across eras is by looking at how much they dominated their respective level of competition. I think Butkus has Ray beat in that area by a wide margin, IMO.
Then why do I routinely get heckled when I tell people that Babe Ruth was far better than Barry Bonds? Ruth out-homered most other TEAMS in the league when he was playing... not just other players.
Bonds is better, but Ruth is greater. Bonds is more talented than Ruth was, particularly when you consider all the "tools", but the gap between Ruth and his peers was much larger... Gretsky-like.
Do you really think Ruth would be hitting 200 HRs if he played today? I'm a big Ruth fan, but also a big Bonds fan. Comparing them is very difficult, so I won't hijack here.jwvdcw,

Can you get us the splits on the Ravens D with and without Ray Lewis in 2002?

And why is Ray being found not guilty carry more weight than OJ being found not guilty?
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/sports_issues/40799
At around 4 a.m. on January 31st outside of an Atlanta nightclub where a post Super Bowl party was winding down, an all too familiar scene unfolded. An argument broke out between two groups. The altercation escalated from verbal to physical when one man struck another over the head with a champagne bottle. The actions to take place in the following chaotic moments were fast and furious, and it seems no two eyewitnesses saw the same thing. What is conclusive about the outcome is that as a limousine sped away and gunshots were fired at it, the bodies of two men remained eternally still. Jacinth Baker and Richard Lollar had died from multiple stab wounds to their chests. And the reason their deaths were relegated to nationwide news rather than dime-a-dozen statistics is because one of the men involved in the scuffle happened to have led the National Football League in tackles last year.

If convicted along with his two friends, Ray Lewis of the Baltimore Ravens will go from three-time All-Pro to lifetime inmate. In a matter of only a few bloody seconds, two lives were ended and the stellar career of a professional athlete was put into serious jeopardy. "I’m not trying to end my career like this", is what Lewis reportedly said in his hotel room after the fatal fight. This would be the very same room that the prosecution will attempt to show a "blood trail" leading to, with the assistance of a forensics expert no less renown than Henry Lee of the famed O.J. Simpson defense team.



So far, the state of Georgia’s case against Lewis has been rather flawed. Since the trial began, several witnesses whose testimony would supposedly demonstrate Lewis’ guilt have altered the stories initially given to investigators. Their testimonies were supposed to show that Ray Lewis hit, kicked or stabbed someone, and that he even admitted as much afterwards. Instead, the vast majority of testimony has either been inconclusive, or else supports the defense’s contention that Lewis acted solely as a peacemaker, trying in vain to prevent a tragedy that he would be tied to. It is crucial that jurors believe this if Lewis is to be acquitted, for even though no one has placed a knife in his hand or claims to have seen him stab anyone, he can still be convicted of murder if it is proven that he participated in the brawl that led to two deaths.

The lone person sticking to his assertion that Lewis acted violently has been Chester Anderson, not exactly an ideal witness. Anderson is an admitted con artist in jail on identification fraud charges. This has given the defense the opportunity to attack Anderson’s credibility, suggesting that he is falsely testifying in hopes of winning leniency in his own legal problems.

It has been shown that Ray Lewis gave a false statement to the police, mentioning only two people in the limousine that fled the scene, omitting the names of his friends and now co-defendants, Reginald Oakley and Joseph Sweeting. However, Lewis has not been charged with lesser crimes such as lying to the authorities and obstruction of justice, but stands accused of cold blooded murder. This will be far more difficult to convict him of. So unless there is a dramatic turn in the case, it appears that at most, Lewis’ guilt is strictly by association. His proven crime is one he holds in common with countless new breed pro athletes groomed by the streets in the course of humble upbringings that were dramatically reshaped by contracts which made them instant millionaires - maintaining a "posse".

In today’s celebrity obsessed culture, becoming a sports icon makes the acquisition of hangers on inevitable. As more and more prodigies are discovered in the hood, so too increases the number of questionable companions brought along for the ride. As members of the hip hop generation, it is important to these young stars that they remain true to their roots. Rather than risk losing street credibility and being labeled sellouts, they choose to congregate with those who know them best. They elect to keep it real over playing it safe. Sometimes this works out to their advantage, helping them to remain grounded at the negligible cost of funding all activities. But there are those who prefer to flaunt the baubles of newly acquired wealth and fame, and when playa haters get in their faces to express outraged envy, the star’s true friends have his back, and he in turn, for the better of for the worse, has theirs. To just walk away from a confrontation demonstrates softness, and this simply cannot be. When someone in the position of Ray Lewis chooses to bond with a man who was charged with 25 criminal counts between 1985 and 1992 (Oakley), and a convicted felon who has done time in federal prison for a firearms violation (Sweeting), a good time has very real potential to turn bad.

Today’s most promising athletes increasingly fit the profile of young black men plucked from the ghetto and thrust into the spotlight. The cultural gap between them and the largely white, upper middle-class fans who pay to watch them play is widening. This gulf is now almost as wide as the players’ wallets have grown, and is expanding nearly as quickly as their arrest records. Ultimately, it is society’s responsibility to select the qualifications our heroes must meet. So the blame lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.
The murder charges were later completely thrown out due to a total lack of any evidence. Ray Lewis was charged with a misdemeanor: obstruction of justice. I won't bother posting quotes about the OJ case, but I think we all know that it was a sham.

 
I may be a bit biased being a die hard Eagles fan. During the 80's, no one struck fear in offenses quite like LT. He was indefensible. An incredible qb killer. He transcended the game. Ray is very good,one of the best. But Ray scares no one, nor does he change the game. He is just a very good,solid LB.

Ray doesnt really compare to LT as far as being the best. IMO
No one struck fear in QBs dropping back to pass imo. However, as has been mentioned, was LT really that great at other aspects like coverage and run stopping?
 
I think you'd have to put Butkus alone at the top of the heap at MLB, but Ray definitely belongs on the Mt. Rushmore of the position, along with Lambert and Nietschke (maybe Singeltary also, though I think he's just a notch below).One unfortunate thing about Ray's career - 2002 was going to be his greatest season ever, greater even than the sick things he did in 99 and 00. But he got injured in Week Four, and I don't think he's ever been quite as good since.In 2002, he opened the season with 17 tackles (11 solo) in Week 1 and then had 19 (13 solo) in Week 2. The guy was everywhere. But then he got even better.In Week 3 vs. Denver on Monday Night, he had 20 tackles, picked off a pass and defended two others, then threw the killer block that sprung McAlister for the 108-yard TD return of a missed FG, and was named Defensive Player of the Week. The next week, in only three quarters before he got hurt, he had another INT, 13 more tackles, and forced a fumble that he recovered.Up until the moment in 2002 he dislocated his shoulder diving on a fumble that he caused, Ray was playing at the kind of LT-like level where he was totally dictating the opponent's game plan. I wish he could have played the whole season, because then I might have been able to vote for him over Butkus.

 
MLB, yes. LB, I'd say a close #2 behind LT of course. People fear Lewis, but NO ONE was feared more than LT. The man was a beast...

 
MLB, yes. LB, I'd say a close #2 behind LT of course. People fear Lewis, but NO ONE was feared more than LT. The man was a beast...
you have to be kidding me. Butkus was one of the most feared players of all time. Way more than Lewis.
 
MLB, yes.  LB, I'd say a close #2 behind LT of course.  People fear Lewis, but NO ONE was feared more than LT.  The man was a beast...
you have to be kidding me. Butkus was one of the most feared players of all time. Way more than Lewis.
He never said that he wasn't. :confused: He simply said that Ray was the #2 LB of all time but the thing that separates him from #1(LT) was that LT was more feared. I don't necessarily agree with his logic(that being feared is that important), but that was what he said.

 
I don't necessarily agree with his logic(that being feared is that important), but that was what he said.
Exactly.I'll take the guy that can cover Tony Gonzales. Everybody else can have the guy that's "feared".

 
LOL. What a surprise. Not one comment about Gradishar seriously outperforming Lewis. What a slap in the face to one of the greatest LBs to have played the game.

 
LOL. What a surprise. Not one comment about Gradishar seriously outperforming Lewis.

What a slap in the face to one of the greatest LBs to have played the game.
I thought that was interesting also. Wonder why no one has made a response to those statistics? :D No MLB is even close to what Butkus was.
 
No MLB is even close to what Butkus was.
Agreed. I grew up in WIS & am still a Packer fan through & through even though I now have a love-hate allegiance to DEN.I loved Nitschke & the way he played the game but was such a mild & gentle man off the field. But as much as I loved Nitchke, and as much as I hated the Bears, I still was in awe of Butkus & what he could do to the other team's offense. He could single handedly take away the running game, making RBs who didn't have backbones of steel literally afraid to run.
 
MLB, yes.  LB, I'd say a close #2 behind LT of course.  People fear Lewis, but NO ONE was feared more than LT.  The man was a beast...
you have to be kidding me. Butkus was one of the most feared players of all time. Way more than Lewis.
Oh, don't get me wrong. Butkus would probably be #3 on my list. He definitely made some grown men pee in their pants back in the day...
 
LOL.  What a surprise.  Not one comment about Gradishar seriously outperforming Lewis. 

What a slap in the face to one of the greatest LBs to have played the game.
I thought that was interesting also. Wonder why no one has made a response to those statistics? :D No MLB is even close to what Butkus was.
I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.
 
I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.
Somehow, I don't think that double teaming was invented in the last 20 years.
 
I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.
Somehow, I don't think that double teaming was invented in the last 20 years.
:confused: Why are you putting words in my mouth?Statistics are not meaningful for defensive players becuase of double teams and the fact that offenses shy away from good defensive players. Thats all I ever said.

In other words, if there is a really good player who gets double teamed every play and they go away from him, while there is a bad player who the offense only blocks with one guy and runs right at him, then theres a good chance that the worse player will have better stats.

Then somebody asked why nobody had addressed the poster's stats, and I replied that I had already addressed it.

 
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I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.
Somehow, I don't think that double teaming was invented in the last 20 years.
:confused: Why are you putting words in my mouth?Statistics are not meaningful for defensive players becuase of double teams and the fact that offenses shy away from good defensive players. Thats all I ever said.

In other words, if there is a really good player who gets double teamed every play and they go away from him, while there is a bad player who the offense only blocks with one guy and runs right at him, then theres a good chance that the worse player will have better stats.

Then somebody asked why nobody had addressed the poster's stats, and I replied that I had already addressed it.
Gradishar was double teamed frequently.
 
I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.
Somehow, I don't think that double teaming was invented in the last 20 years.
:confused: Why are you putting words in my mouth?Statistics are not meaningful for defensive players becuase of double teams and the fact that offenses shy away from good defensive players. Thats all I ever said.

In other words, if there is a really good player who gets double teamed every play and they go away from him, while there is a bad player who the offense only blocks with one guy and runs right at him, then theres a good chance that the worse player will have better stats.

Then somebody asked why nobody had addressed the poster's stats, and I replied that I had already addressed it.
Gradishar was double teamed frequently.
Yes, I know that. And therefore his stats aren't as great as they would be if he weren't. Its the same for every great player, which is why we should just throw stats out the window when comparing defensive players because we can never know if a player got the stats because he was that great or if he simply wasn't doubled as often.
 
I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.
Somehow, I don't think that double teaming was invented in the last 20 years.
:confused: Why are you putting words in my mouth?Statistics are not meaningful for defensive players becuase of double teams and the fact that offenses shy away from good defensive players. Thats all I ever said.

In other words, if there is a really good player who gets double teamed every play and they go away from him, while there is a bad player who the offense only blocks with one guy and runs right at him, then theres a good chance that the worse player will have better stats.

Then somebody asked why nobody had addressed the poster's stats, and I replied that I had already addressed it.
Gradishar was double teamed frequently.
Yes, I know that. And therefore his stats aren't as great as they would be if he weren't. Its the same for every great player, which is why we should just throw stats out the window when comparing defensive players because we can never know if a player got the stats because he was that great or if he simply wasn't doubled as often.
I guess I'm ok with that as long as you aren't saying Lewis is better because of double teams, even though Gradishar's stats are better than Lewis. Both were double teamed.
 
I don't necessarily agree with his logic(that being feared is that important), but that was what he said.
Exactly.I'll take the guy that can cover Tony Gonzales. Everybody else can have the guy that's "feared".
who said Butkus couldn't cover?
Actually I was speaking to the people describing LT as "feared" as if that somehow made up for weak spots in his game. I have no idea if Butkus could cover or not. To be honest comparing Butkus and others of his era to modern day players is one of those "Jordan vs Chamberlin" discussions I was trying to stay out of.I can tell you if I had to choose Butkus, LT, or Lewis to cover Tony Gonzales..... I'd take Lewis of the three. It seems unlikely Butkus or any other LB from that era could match up with Gonzalez's size/speed but I could be wrong.

 
So LT couldn't cover nor stop the run :confused:

:lmao:
You have to realize that when somebody says that LT couldn't cover COMPARED TO RAY LEWIS that really isn't that much of an insult. When we're talking about the greatest players of all time the fact that LT was only had above average coverage skills and not amazingly above average coverage skills is actually a detrimant(sp?) to his side.
 
I might go so far as to say that he is the best defensive player ever...now before any of the LT of Deion or White backers jump on me keep in mind that I'm placing a heavy bonus on leadership and making your teamates better. Compared to a player like LT, Lewis lacks his skills but I think he more than makes up for it with his leadership, which imo he is one of the best in the league at.
I specifically took pains to write MLB, because LT was the best "LB" ever.
Thats crap, L.T. was one of the greatest players ever, but he never covered backs out of the backfield, he was a glorified defensive end. He was a great pass rusher, but as a true linebacker such as Lewis or Butkiss he is not even close.
 
LT was the best pass rushing LB
Ahem...see avatar...Back to the topic, I agree Lewis is the best MLB I've seen, but I'm only 33. I think the best defensive player I've seen in Reggie White.

 
So LT couldn't cover nor stop the run :confused:

:lmao:
You have to realize that when somebody says that LT couldn't cover COMPARED TO RAY LEWIS that really isn't that much of an insult. When we're talking about the greatest players of all time the fact that LT was only had above average coverage skills and not amazingly above average coverage skills is actually a detrimant(sp?) to his side.
Thanks for translating for Yenrub but actually I'm not even sure I'd go as far as to say LT's coverage skills were above average. His run stopping was above average, but certainly not his coverage skills.I didn't post that remark to be controversial. How many people really think LT covered people as well as Lewis anyway? Would it be controversial to say LT didn't cover RB/TE as well as Julian Peterson? Because I believe that statement to be true as well. And Donnie Edwards. It's a pretty long list actually.

 
I voted yes, but I can't really give a fully educated answer. I got to watch a lot of Singletary, but nothing except for highlights of previous generations.

However, there is one aspect to Lewis that makes me vote yes. I've never seen a better leader on the defensive side of the ball. His teammates are elevated to a higher level of play because of him. Not only because of his play, but because of his non-stop single mindedness towards excellence and devotion to his team.

 
So LT couldn't cover nor stop the run  :confused:

:lmao:
You have to realize that when somebody says that LT couldn't cover COMPARED TO RAY LEWIS that really isn't that much of an insult. When we're talking about the greatest players of all time the fact that LT was only had above average coverage skills and not amazingly above average coverage skills is actually a detrimant(sp?) to his side.
Thanks for translating for Yenrub but actually I'm not even sure I'd go as far as to say LT's coverage skills were above average. His run stopping was above average, but certainly not his coverage skills.I didn't post that remark to be controversial. How many people really think LT covered people as well as Lewis anyway? Would it be controversial to say LT didn't cover RB/TE as well as Julian Peterson? Because I believe that statement to be true as well. And Donnie Edwards. It's a pretty long list actually.
I'm glad jwvdcw cleared it up because it was you post on page two that had me :confused:
Similary, LT was the best pass rushing LB and another great leader but he had holes in his game. LT was good at run support but nowhere near as good as Singletary and Lewis. Forget about LT in coverage. Deion Sanders tackling = LT in coverage.
 
Okay I'll play this one straight. Ray is an great LB but he is a far superior PR man. All joking aside his image today is much better than I think it ever would have been had the unfortunate incident in Atlanta never happened. "Any publicity is good publicity." I am continually amazed that he gets Brett Favre like treatment from the media and his supporters. It seems that people choose not to see his flaws as a player. He has as much trouble shedding guards as the next guy and on more than one occasion I have read comments from 'sources' (both PFW and Pastabelli IIRC) that say even some players on his own team think he needs to just shut the hell up with his pre-game peacock prancing about. I have to imagine those sources are just as reliable as the ones that say Ray-Ray is the greatest leader since PattonMaybe Ray Ray is the best of all time, who knows? Maybe not, but are any of the guys mentioned in this thread so much superior to a Tommy Nobis or Junior Seau that we can truly tell the difference? I think not.FWIW Based on the reps of all these players I would take Butkus #1 but be very happy if I ended up with Nobis or Junior or Ray Ray...etc.

 
I'm glad jwvdcw cleared it up because it was you post on page two that had me :confused:

Similary, LT was the best pass rushing LB and another great leader but he had holes in his game. LT was good at run support but nowhere near as good as Singletary and Lewis. Forget about LT in coverage. Deion Sanders tackling = LT in coverage.
I'm not sure why that's confusing. The weakest part of Sanders game was his tackling. He was average at best. The weakest part of LT's game is coverage. He was average at best. It's kind of hard to be the best ever if you are average at best in a major facet of the position.
 
Deion was not an average tackler...he was well below average, perhaps one of the worst in the NFL.I seriously doubt LT was that bad in coverage.

 
I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.
lol @ the tap dance. Good D players can be avoided or taken out by a double team. Great D players can't be.I'm sorry, but Lewis barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera doesn't make up for 4 1/2 tackles a games, every game, for 10 years.Gradishar > Lewis.If you saw him play, you'd know why.
 

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