After 9 seasons, is Ray Lewis... (1 Viewer)

[ravnzfan]

I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.

I'm sorry, but Lewis barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera doesn't make up for 4 1/2 tackles a games, every game, for 10 years.Gradishar > Lewis.

If you saw him play, you'd know why.

--Ray Lewis, and the Ravens as a team, are entering season 10...this means he has 9 years experience--injured early in the '02 season, Lewis played only 4 games, getting hurt early in the Cleveland game on SNF, IIRC

--128 games played/1249 tackles....9.8/game played

--shared space w/Ed Hartwell, in a 3-4 scheme, for 3 years...Hartwells numbers? 335

as I said earlier...well over 300 in 3 years (1 season as Ray's replacement)

I've said this a couple times, and it bears mentioning again for the pure numbers purists in the crowd...

Ray Lewis has played 1/3 of his games in a 3/4, playing next to another ILB(Hartwell)---a guy deemed good enough to be signed as a FA for $26M over 5 yrs, after averaging ~100 tackles playing next to Ray Lewis

scheme matters...let's add the first 6 years to whatever happens from here on out if we want to look at his impact on a game-by-game basis, as the Ravens move back to a 4-3 to cover Ray up alittle bit, allowing him to roam free again

 

[jwvdcw]

Deion was not an average tackler...he was well below average, perhaps one of the worst in the NFL.

I seriously doubt LT was that bad in coverage.

hiijack alert...I don't think Deion was all that bad. While he would never have bone crushing hits, the fact that he was so fast meant that nobody could ever get around him, so he could always at least slow someone down until his teamates arrived or he could trip them up. I think the myth that Deion wasn't a good tackler stems more from the fact that teams just didn't go at him so he didn't have a lot of opportunity for tackles.

 

[GreedoShotFirst]

Deion was not an average tackler...he was well below average, perhaps one of the worst in the NFL.

I seriously doubt LT was that bad in coverage.

hiijack alert...I don't think Deion was all that bad. While he would never have bone crushing hits, the fact that he was so fast meant that nobody could ever get around him, so he could always at least slow someone down until his teamates arrived or he could trip them up. I think the myth that Deion wasn't a good tackler stems more from the fact that teams just didn't go at him so he didn't have a lot of opportunity for tackles.

that would be incorrect Deion was a great cover corner, but he tackled (and yes this should all be in the past tense, man hasn't done a thing in years) like Larry Bird played defense, rarely, with little skill and less enthusiasm.

 

[jwvdcw]

I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.

lol @ the tap dance. Good D players can be avoided or taken out by a double team. Great D players can't be.I'm sorry, but Lewis barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera doesn't make up for 4 1/2 tackles a games, every game, for 10 years.

Gradishar > Lewis.

If you saw him play, you'd know why.

Ok, heres an example for you:1996(I just picked a random year, we could do this with many years and many players)...

Deion Sanders stats: 16 games, 30 tackles, 2 INTs, 3 yards returning INTs, 7 passes defended.

Aaron Glenn stats: 16 games, 36 tackles, 4 INTs, 113 yards returning INTs, 9 passes defended

So Glenn had a better year than Deion this year? Not at all. What these stats don't tell you is that Deion was never targeted and that helped his entire team have one fo the best defenses in the leauge. Glenn meanwhile, was part of a terrible 1-15 Jets team that gave up the most points in the league.

This is just one example of how stats are completely meaningless when talking about defensive players.

 

[jwvdcw]

I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.

I'm sorry, but Lewis barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera doesn't make up for 4 1/2 tackles a games, every game, for 10 years.Gradishar > Lewis.

If you saw him play, you'd know why.

--Ray Lewis, and the Ravens as a team, are entering season 10...this means he has 9 years experience--injured early in the '02 season, Lewis played only 4 games, getting hurt early in the Cleveland game on SNF, IIRC

--128 games played/1249 tackles....9.8/game played

--shared space w/Ed Hartwell, in a 3-4 scheme, for 3 years...Hartwells numbers? 335

as I said earlier...well over 300 in 3 years (1 season as Ray's replacement)

I've said this a couple times, and it bears mentioning again for the pure numbers purists in the crowd...

Ray Lewis has played 1/3 of his games in a 3/4, playing next to another ILB(Hartwell)---a guy deemed good enough to be signed as a FA for $26M over 5 yrs, after averaging ~100 tackles playing next to Ray Lewis

scheme matters...let's add the first 6 years to whatever happens from here on out if we want to look at his impact on a game-by-game basis, as the Ravens move back to a 4-3 to cover Ray up alittle bit, allowing him to roam free again

exactly...just another reason why these stats are meaningless: scheme. http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=116454

 

[Yenrub]

I'm glad jwvdcw cleared it up because it was you post on page two that had me 

Similary, LT was the best pass rushing LB and another great leader but he had holes in his game. LT was good at run support but nowhere near as good as Singletary and Lewis. Forget about LT in coverage. Deion Sanders tackling = LT in coverage.

I'm not sure why that's confusing. The weakest part of Sanders game was his tackling. He was average at best. The weakest part of LT's game is coverage. He was average at best. It's kind of hard to be the best ever if you are average at best in a major facet of the position.

Sorry for the hijack!But I have to ask BoltBacker this question.

Boltbacker are you trying to tell me that we shouldn’t consider LT as the best player ever at the OLB position?

 

[P Boy]

I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.

lol @ the tap dance. Good D players can be avoided or taken out by a double team. Great D players can't be.I'm sorry, but Lewis barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera doesn't <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="make%20up" onmouseover="window.status='make up'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">make up</a> for 4 1/2 tackles a games, every game, for 10 years.

Gradishar > Lewis.

If you saw him play, you'd know why.

Ok, heres an example for you:1996(I just picked a random year, we could do this with many years and many players)...

Deion Sanders stats: 16 games, 30 tackles, 2 INTs, 3 yards returning INTs, 7 passes defended.

Aaron Glenn stats: 16 games, 36 tackles, 4 INTs, 113 yards returning INTs, 9 passes defended

So Glenn had a better year than Deion this year? Not at all. What these stats don't tell you is that Deion was never targeted and that helped his entire team have one fo the best defenses in the leauge. Glenn meanwhile, was part of a terrible 1-15 Jets team that gave up the most points in the league.

This is just one example of how stats are completely meaningless when talking about defensive players.

That's a blatantly false comparison. You're saying that an offense can operate effectively by not running the football except outside the hashmarks?A CB can be isolated & has pass coverage as their only priority - so an offense can throw away from a CB, though it takes their WR out of the game by doing so. A MLB simply can not be isolated in any similar fashion. To suggest otherwise is assinine.

 

[P Boy]

--shared space w/Ed Hartwell, in a 3-4 scheme, for 3 years...Hartwells numbers? 335

LOFL! I'll take Tom Jackson over Ed Hartwell any day of the week & twice on Sunday. Are you saying that Gradishar didn't have significantly talented competition for tackles on the DEN Ds he played on?That's absurd.

BTW, Gradishar played just a little time in a 3-4 scheme.

 

[P Boy]

--Ray Lewis, and the Ravens as a team, are entering season 10...this means he has 9 years experience

That's why I used per game numbers - unless you are suggesting that Lewis will get about 650 tackles this year & get into Gradishar's neighborhood by the end of his 10th season. If he does that, even I'll admit he's the greatest ever.Guys - stop the man-love, for Pete's sake. Lewis is great - no question. He's just not the greatest, despite the fact that he gets so ridiculously much publicity. Gradishar isn't either, though he was better then than Lewis is now. Neither one of these guys can match up with guys like Butkus, Nitschke, or Lambert - they may not even be able to match up to Bednarik or Huff.

 

[Kleck]

I'm sorry, but Lewis barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera doesn't make up for 4 1/2 tackles a games, every game, for 10 years.

If you're just going to make up some numbers, why not say only 1 tackle a game for 10 years?LINK

 

[CommuterMan]

How do you compare players across generations??? A topic that has had fans arguing for decades regardless of the sport. Stats are just a part of the whole, just as scheme plays a part. But one also has to consider the conditions that the games were played in. For example today's players train year round, get the best care available, have computer readouts that pinpoint every detail, and film after film to review. The players of the 60s and 70s had other issues, distractions and or benefits.Butkus to my knowledge never faced a TE like Gonzalez or Gates. The TE in that era was more of a blocker (Butkus' teammate Ditka began that change in the NFL) nor did he contend with a West Coast Offense intent on probing the short-middle of the field where LBs call home. But what would Butkus done with the training adds that todays players have? What would Lewis done without being able to spend countless hours in the weight room?The fact that most fans can agree with a top ten or top five at a position or based on some athletic feat is a feat in and of itself. To try and narrow that process further to take that "short list" and slot those players becomes more a matter of preference and at that point your opinion is no more valid than mine. In a few decades when the next generation of players have other benefits/changes that move their game to another level, I hope that my grandson doesn't think me "wacked" for calling Ray Lewis a great LB anymore than I respect my father's opinion that Butkus is and always be the "Monster of the Midway" On a side note: Pony Boy your discussion on Gradishar is indeed thought provoking. Upon looking at his stats, I am a loss as to why he continues to be overlooked on the Hall of Fame ballots. Perhaps he like Tom Jackson are hurt by the team concept that ruled in Denver during the days of the Orange Crush defense.... a poor statement if that is the case as the individuals should be recognized by the HOF for their contribution to that awsome defensive team.

 

[P Boy]

I'm sorry, but Lewis barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera doesn't make up for 4 1/2 tackles a games, every game, for 10 years.

If you're just going to make up some numbers, why not say only 1 tackle a game for 10 years?

Okay, I'll go through this slowly since I know that you are used to dealing with the miscreants in the FFA:Gradishar: 2049 tackles/145 games = 14.13 tackles per game - career

Lewis: 1210 tackles/125 games = 9.68 tackles per game - career

14.13 tpg

-

9.68 tpg

__________

4.45 tpg which rounds to 4 1/2 tackles per game difference, which Gradishar averaged for 10 years.

I hoped this helped. If you need more help with averages, please ask.

 

[P Boy]

On a side note: Pony Boy your discussion on Gradishar is indeed thought provoking. Upon looking at his stats, I am a loss as to why he continues to be overlooked on the Hall of Fame ballots. Perhaps he like Tom Jackson are hurt by the team concept that ruled in Denver during the days of the Orange Crush defense.... a poor statement if that is the case as the individuals should be recognized by the HOF for their contribution to that awsome defensive team.

It's a joke on DEN - and a piss poor one at that. To think that DEN has fielded only one HoF caliber player in all its years is a little black comedy being played out.Guys like Gradishar, Jackson, Little, & Zimmerman not being in the HoF are a travesty, but hey, as long as it entertains the pathetic sense of humor of the voters...

 

[Kleck]

I'm sorry, but Lewis barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera doesn't <a  style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="make%20up" onmouseover="window.status='make up'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">make up</a> for 4 1/2 tackles a games, every game, for 10 years.

If you're just going to make up some numbers, why not say only 1 tackle a game for 10 years?

Okay, I'll go through this slowly since I know that you are used to dealing with the miscreants in the FFA:Gradishar: 2049 tackles/145 games = 14.13 tackles per game - career

Lewis: 1210 tackles/125 games = 9.68 tackles per game - career

14.13 tpg

-

9.68 tpg

__________

4.45 tpg which rounds to 4 1/2 tackles per game difference, which Gradishar averaged for 10 years.

I hoped this helped. If you need more help with averages, please ask.

There's no need to be condescending. If you read your quote again I'm sure you can see where the misunderstanding comes from. Talking down to me doesn't strengthen your argument in any way. I'm fairly confident in my math skills, so you might want to try another approach.Making your argument to disparage Lewis based on someone else's statistics is folly. I agree Gradishar was an outstanding player who has not been singled out for praise.

Lastly, the "barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera" is a lot more than you give him credit for. He's authentic. He's a leader. If you disagree, fine. I think he gets his defense to play well together because of his motivational tactics and dedication to being part of a dominant defense. The emotional and mental aspects of the game are more important than ability and statistics in my opinion.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Butkus to my knowledge never faced a TE like Gonzalez or Gates. The TE in that era was more of a blocker (Butkus' teammate Ditka began that change in the NFL)

Ray Lewis never faced Antonio Gates either.But Butkus face five time pro bowlers like John Mackey (15.8 ypr career average) and Jackie Smith (16.5 ypr career average).

Randy Gradishar faced Dave Casper twice a year, Kellen Winslow twice a year, and guys like Ozzie Newsome.

Athletic TEs with great hands have been around for awhile. Lucky for Butkus he never had to face Ditka in his prime.

 

[Kleck]

Hey Pony Boy,

Can I ask where you are getting your statistics from? According to NFL.com you have credited Lewis with too few tackles (link above). And according to this site you credited Gradishar with too many tackles.

 

[P Boy]

There's no need to be condescending. If you read your quote again I'm sure you can see where the misunderstanding comes from. Talking down to me doesn't strengthen your argument in any way. I'm fairly confident in my math skills, so you might want to try another approach.

Making your argument to disparage Lewis based on someone else's statistics is folly. I agree Gradishar was an outstanding player who has not been singled out for praise.

Lastly, the "barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera" is a lot more than you give him credit for. He's authentic. He's a leader. If you disagree, fine. I think he gets his defense to play well together because of his motivational tactics and dedication to being part of a dominant defense. The emotional and mental aspects of the game are more important than ability and statistics in my opinion.

Geez, Dave, I was trying to interject some jocularity - hence the winkie smilie. If it was taken the wrong way, please accept my apologies.

My point was that Lewis gets a lot of his notoriety from his behavior on the field. But the fact that Gradishar averaged almost 50% more tackles per game than Lewis has is their respective careers speaks volumes more than the antics that Lewis displays on the field. Lewis is a fine LB who talks a great game. Gradishar didn't need to preen in front of the cameras - he just did his job, lead by his actions, and plainly put up some amazing stats.

Say what you want about emotions, but that many more tackles is flat out doing a better job. I have plainly stated that Lewis is a great LB - but it's hardly disparaging him to state that Gradishar was a better LB. Lewis has gotten his rep primarily through his play, but also through some significant self-promotion.

Just re-read the whole thing. The initial comment about my "just making up numbers" was a bit over the top, don't you think? Perhaps it was worthy of a bit of scorn?

 

[Chase Stuart]

Gradishar made 7 Pro Bowls in 10 years. Ray Lewis made 5 in 9 years (I'm assuming he made the Pro Bowl this year).

 

[P Boy]

Hey Pony Boy,

Can I ask where you are getting your statistics from? According to NFL.com you have credited Lewis with too few tackles (link above). And according to this site you credited Gradishar with too many tackles.

LINK Then: Randy Gradishar was the only Ring of Fame inductee in 1989, in recognition of a 10-year career at linebacker with the Broncos. During his career, Gradishar was a seven-time Pro Bowler, the most by any Bronco at the end of his career, and he is also the all-time leader in tackles for Denver, finishing with 2,049.

You are right, though about Lewis. He should have 1240 career tackles. So the difference is only 809 tackles in 20 more games played, not 839.

 

[CommuterMan]

Butkus to my knowledge never faced a TE like Gonzalez or Gates.  The TE in that era was more of a blocker (Butkus' teammate Ditka began that change in the NFL)

Ray Lewis never faced Antonio Gates either.But Butkus face five time pro bowlers like John Mackey (15.8 ypr career average) and Jackie Smith (16.5 ypr career average).

Randy Gradishar faced Dave Casper twice a year, Kellen Winslow twice a year, and guys like Ozzie Newsome.

Athletic TEs with great hands have been around for awhile. Lucky for Butkus he never had to face Ditka in his prime.

Chase you are right that Lewis has not faced Gates...but I think you know that I mean the TE position during the era that Butkus played in was primarily used as a blocker. How many times do you think that Butkus lined up against Mackey? or Smith? or teams with TE that were targeted 15 times a game like these two above? The LBs of today face many more "offensive" minded TE players who are looking to use the middle of the field. And I would have paid good money to see that matchup of Butkus and Ditka in their prime As for Gradishar, I agree that his being not included in the HOF is a poor reflection, especially as you point out he played against some of the best TEs to play in the NFL. But again, these TEs were the next generation of the evolving NFL landscape.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Butkus to my knowledge never faced a TE like Gonzalez or Gates. The TE in that era was more of a blocker (Butkus' teammate Ditka began that change in the NFL)

Ray Lewis never faced Antonio Gates either.But Butkus face five time pro bowlers like John Mackey (15.8 ypr career average) and Jackie Smith (16.5 ypr career average).

Randy Gradishar faced Dave Casper twice a year, Kellen Winslow twice a year, and guys like Ozzie Newsome.

Athletic TEs with great hands have been around for awhile. Lucky for Butkus he never had to face Ditka in his prime.

Chase you are right that Lewis has not faced Gates...but I think you know that I mean the TE position during the era that Butkus played in was primarily used as a blocker. How many times do you think that Butkus lined up against Mackey? or Smith? or teams with TE that were targeted 15 times a game like these two above? The LBs of today face many more "offensive" minded TE players who are looking to use the middle of the field. And I would have paid good money to see that matchup of Butkus and Ditka in their prime As for Gradishar, I agree that his being not included in the HOF is a poor reflection, especially as you point out he played against some of the best TEs to play in the NFL. But again, these TEs were the next generation of the evolving NFL landscape.

I don't think MLBs of any era generally guard TEs. That's certainly not their main responsibily. Usually the SLB will do this, and of late teams like the Ravens put Chris McAllister on Tony Gonzalez.

 

[CommuterMan]

Butkus to my knowledge never faced a TE like Gonzalez or Gates.  The TE in that era was more of a blocker (Butkus' teammate Ditka began that change in the NFL)

Ray Lewis never faced Antonio Gates either.But Butkus face five time pro bowlers like John Mackey (15.8 ypr career average) and Jackie Smith (16.5 ypr career average).

Randy Gradishar faced Dave Casper twice a year, Kellen Winslow twice a year, and guys like Ozzie Newsome.

Athletic TEs with great hands have been around for awhile. Lucky for Butkus he never had to face Ditka in his prime.

Chase you are right that Lewis has not faced Gates...but I think you know that I mean the TE position during the era that Butkus played in was primarily used as a blocker. How many times do you think that Butkus lined up against Mackey? or Smith? or teams with TE that were targeted 15 times a game like these two above? The LBs of today face many more "offensive" minded TE players who are looking to use the middle of the field. And I would have paid good money to see that matchup of Butkus and Ditka in their prime As for Gradishar, I agree that his being not included in the HOF is a poor reflection, especially as you point out he played against some of the best TEs to play in the NFL. But again, these TEs were the next generation of the evolving NFL landscape.

I don't think MLBs of any era generally guard TEs. That's certainly not their main responsibily. Usually the SLB will do this, and of late teams like the Ravens put Chris McAllister on Tony Gonzalez.

But that is exactly what today's NFL offenses try to do by dictating matchups. A team like KC, NYG or SD will try and spread the defense by putting additional wideouts into the formation. The idea being that if man coverage is employed by the defense then that coverage will mean a LB will have to cover the TE. If the defense is zoned then the coverage still may require a LB to initially cover the TE on a short crossing play over the middle. Either way another offensive reciever is released into the playing field that was not utilized to such an extent 40 years ago.

 

[jwvdcw]

I had already addressed statistics. I don't think that they tell the whole story or even close to it with defensive players since good defensive players are often avoided or double teamed by the offense.

lol @ the tap dance. Good D players can be avoided or taken out by a double team. Great D players can't be.I'm sorry, but Lewis barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera doesn't <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="make%20up" onmouseover="window.status='make up'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">make up</a> for 4 1/2 tackles a games, every game, for 10 years.

Gradishar > Lewis.

If you saw him play, you'd know why.

Ok, heres an example for you:1996(I just picked a random year, we could do this with many years and many players)...

Deion Sanders stats: 16 games, 30 tackles, 2 INTs, 3 yards returning INTs, 7 passes defended.

Aaron Glenn stats: 16 games, 36 tackles, 4 INTs, 113 yards returning INTs, 9 passes defended

So Glenn had a better year than Deion this year? Not at all. What these stats don't tell you is that Deion was never targeted and that helped his entire team have one fo the best defenses in the leauge. Glenn meanwhile, was part of a terrible 1-15 Jets team that gave up the most points in the league.

This is just one example of how stats are completely meaningless when talking about defensive players.

That's a blatantly false comparison. You're saying that an offense can operate effectively by not running the football except outside the hashmarks?A CB can be isolated & has pass coverage as their only priority - so an offense can throw away from a CB, though it takes their WR out of the game by doing so. A MLB simply can not be isolated in any similar fashion. To suggest otherwise is assinine.

An offense can run away from the LB's side(when they are in 3-4). An offense can choose not to run the ball at all. An offense can double team a good LB. In short, an offense definitely controls how much stats a good LB can accumulate. Its just not fair to compare stats and then proclaim one defender better than another. I feel the same way about any sport- for example, I don't think the best basketball defenders always lead the league in steals or blocks. You're not going to ever convince me that stats are the best way to measure defenders.

 

[jwvdcw]

On a side note: Pony Boy your discussion on Gradishar is indeed thought provoking. Upon looking at his stats, I am a loss as to why he continues to be overlooked on the Hall of Fame ballots. Perhaps he like Tom Jackson are hurt by the team concept that ruled in Denver during the days of the Orange Crush defense.... a poor statement if that is the case as the individuals should be recognized by the HOF for their contribution to that awsome defensive team.

IMO, it is because HOF voters are not enamored with stats like many of us here are, especially PB. They look at the actual player. If Gradishar isn't even a HOFer, then I think that tells you all you need to know about whether or not he is better than Lewis.

 

[jwvdcw]

There's no need to be condescending. If you read your quote again I'm sure you can see where the misunderstanding comes from. Talking down to me doesn't strengthen your argument in any way. I'm fairly confident in my math skills, so you might want to try another approach.

Making your argument to disparage Lewis based on someone else's statistics is folly. I agree Gradishar was an outstanding player who has not been singled out for praise.

Lastly, the "barking on the field & pretending he is a monster or a dog for the camera" is a lot more than you give him credit for. He's authentic. He's a leader. If you disagree, fine. I think he gets his defense to play well together because of his motivational tactics and dedication to being part of a dominant defense. The emotional and mental aspects of the game are more important than ability and statistics in my opinion.

Geez, Dave, I was trying to interject some jocularity - hence the winkie smilie. If it was taken the wrong way, please accept my apologies.

My point was that Lewis gets a lot of his notoriety from his behavior on the field. But the fact that Gradishar averaged almost 50% more tackles per game than Lewis has is their respective careers speaks volumes more than the antics that Lewis displays on the field. Lewis is a fine LB who talks a great game. Gradishar didn't need to preen in front of the cameras - he just did his job, lead by his actions, and plainly put up some amazing stats.

Say what you want about emotions, but that many more tackles is flat out doing a better job. I have plainly stated that Lewis is a great LB - but it's hardly disparaging him to state that Gradishar was a better LB. Lewis has gotten his rep primarily through his play, but also through some significant self-promotion.

Just re-read the whole thing. The initial comment about my "just making up numbers" was a bit over the top, don't you think? Perhaps it was worthy of a bit of scorn?

What you call being loud/quiet I call the difference between one of hte best leaders in the history of the game and an average leader.

 

[wingo]

Ray Ray is the best of all time at jumping on the pile at the end of the play to add to his stats.

 

[BoltBacker]

Sorry for the hijack!

But I have to ask BoltBacker this question.

Boltbacker are you trying to tell me that we shouldn’t consider LT as the best player ever at the OLB position?

That's actually a very good question and I've never considered it. Since I can't think of any OLB's that have the overall game of a Ray Lewis my first inclination would be to say LT is probably the best OLB. I'm trying to think of the best OLB I've ever seen and the ones that stand out in my mind (D.Thomas's and A.Tippett's) weren't as good. For some reason the only other names I can really think of are Clay Mathews/Cornelius Bennett/Junior Seau and none of those were in his class.Would it be cheating if I asked you who the last three OLB's were that were inducted to the HOF besides LT???? At this moment based on the names I can remember I would say LT was the best OLB of all time because there aren't any OLB's comparable to Ray Lewis.

NOTE to add I never really saw much of Jack Lambert or Ted Hendricks but they were both supposed to be very good. I don't get the general impression they were LT good but to be fair if I did get to see either play it was at the tail end of their career so it wouldn't be fair to compare.

 

[Raider Nation]

Sorry for the hijack!

But I have to ask BoltBacker this question.

Boltbacker are you trying to tell me that we shouldn’t consider LT as the best player ever at the OLB position?

That's actually a very good question and I've never considered it. Since I can't think of any OLB's that have the overall game of a Ray Lewis my first inclination would be to say LT is probably the best OLB. I'm trying to think of the best OLB I've ever seen and the ones that stand out in my mind (D.Thomas's and A.Tippett's) weren't as good. For some reason the only other names I can really think of are Clay Mathews/Cornelius Bennett/Junior Seau and none of those were in his class.

Derrick Brooks has 6 Pro Bowls under his belt. I'd say he's pretty good.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Sorry for the hijack!

But I have to ask BoltBacker this question.

Boltbacker are you trying to tell me that we shouldn’t consider LT as the best player ever at the OLB position?

That's actually a very good question and I've never considered it. Since I can't think of any OLB's that have the overall game of a Ray Lewis my first inclination would be to say LT is probably the best OLB. I'm trying to think of the best OLB I've ever seen and the ones that stand out in my mind (D.Thomas's and A.Tippett's) weren't as good. For some reason the only other names I can really think of are Clay Mathews/Cornelius Bennett/Junior Seau and none of those were in his class.Would it be cheating if I asked you who the last three OLB's were that were inducted to the HOF besides LT???? At this moment based on the names I can remember I would say LT was the best OLB of all time because there aren't any OLB's comparable to Ray Lewis.

NOTE to add I never really saw much of Jack Lambert or Ted Hendricks but they were both supposed to be very good. I don't get the general impression they were LT good but to be fair if I did get to see either play it was at the tail end of their career so it wouldn't be fair to compare.

Lambert was a MLB, and one of the best there ever was. He made 9 consecutive Pro Bowls, from 1975-1983.Jack Ham was his OLB teammate, and he made 8 consecutive Pro Bowls from 1973-1980. He was pretty darn good too.

Andy Ruseell manned the other OLB spot, and he made six consecutive Pro Bowls, from 1970-1975.

Only 16 LBs ever have made the HOF. From the looks of things, the OLBs are (and Junior Seau will certainly be on this list one day):

Jack Ham

Dave Wilcox, SF

Ted Hendrix, Baltimore/GB/Oakland-LA

Bobby Bell, KC

As far as I can tell, LT was the most recent and fifth OLB inducted.

 

[Raider Nation]

Only 16 LBs ever have made the HOF. From the looks of things, the OLBs are (and Junior Seau will certainly be on this list one day):

Jack Ham

Dave Wilcox, SF

Ted Hendrix, Baltimore/GB/Oakland-LA

Bobby Bell, KC

As far as I can tell, LT was the most recent and fifth OLB inducted.

Levin says none of these guys would even make an NFL Europe roster.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Only 16 LBs ever have made the HOF. From the looks of things, the OLBs are (and Junior Seau will certainly be on this list one day):

Jack Ham

Dave Wilcox, SF

Ted Hendrix, Baltimore/GB/Oakland-LA

Bobby Bell, KC

As far as I can tell, LT was the most recent and fifth OLB inducted.

Levin says none of these guys would even make an NFL Europe roster.

Taken at face value, I agree with him. Rob Neyer wrote that the 2003 (or 2004) Tampa Bay Devil Rays would beat the 1927 Yankees. I'm inclined to agree. Example:

Saturday, April 19, 1947

For the only time in the history of the men's open race, a world-best was established at the Boston Marathon when Korean Yun Bok Suh turned in a 2:25:39 performance.

That would have placed 26th in this year's version of the Boston Marathon.

 

[Raider Nation]

Only 16 LBs ever have made the HOF. From the looks of things, the OLBs are (and Junior Seau will certainly be on this list one day):

Jack Ham

Dave Wilcox, SF

Ted Hendrix, Baltimore/GB/Oakland-LA

Bobby Bell, KC

As far as I can tell, LT was the most recent and fifth OLB inducted.

Levin says none of these guys would even make an NFL Europe roster.

Taken at face value, I agree with him. Rob Neyer wrote that the 2003 (or 2004) Tampa Bay Devil Rays would beat the 1927 Yankees. I'm inclined to agree. Example:

Saturday, April 19, 1947

For the only time in the history of the men's open race, a world-best was established at the Boston Marathon when Korean Yun Bok Suh turned in a 2:25:39 performance.

That would have placed 26th in this year's version of the Boston Marathon.

:sigh:Here we go again. The one supposition you need to make is that the players of yesteryear have access to the same training facilites, supplements, nutrition and every other advantage which the athlete of today enjoys. That's the only way to make a fair comparison.

I still contend that even IF you could take a player in his prime, as is, from the 50's & 60's, he would be a great player today even without the benefit of the advancements.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Only 16 LBs ever have made the HOF. From the looks of things, the OLBs are (and Junior Seau will certainly be on this list one day):

Jack Ham

Dave Wilcox, SF

Ted Hendrix, Baltimore/GB/Oakland-LA

Bobby Bell, KC

As far as I can tell, LT was the most recent and fifth OLB inducted.

Levin says none of these guys would even make an NFL Europe roster.

Taken at face value, I agree with him. Rob Neyer wrote that the 2003 (or 2004) Tampa Bay Devil Rays would beat the 1927 Yankees. I'm inclined to agree. Example:

Saturday, April 19, 1947

For the only time in the history of the men's open race, a world-best was established at the Boston Marathon when Korean Yun Bok Suh turned in a 2:25:39 performance.

That would have placed 26th in this year's version of the Boston Marathon.

:sigh:Here we go again. The one supposition you need to make is that the players of yesteryear have access to the same training facilites, supplements, nutrition and every other advantage which the athlete of today enjoys. That's the only way to make a fair comparison.

I still contend that even IF you could take a player in his prime, as is, from the 50's & 60's, he would be a great player today even without the benefit of the advancements.

I'm pretty sure Levin isn't granting you that supposition. Can you even imagine Bob Pettit at 6'9, 205, one of the greatest players in the history of th game, stopping Amare Stoudamire at 6'10, 245?

 

[Raider Nation]

Only 16 LBs ever have made the HOF. From the looks of things, the OLBs are (and Junior Seau will certainly be on this list one day):

Jack Ham

Dave Wilcox, SF

Ted Hendrix, Baltimore/GB/Oakland-LA

Bobby Bell, KC

As far as I can tell, LT was the most recent and fifth OLB inducted.

Levin says none of these guys would even make an NFL Europe roster.

Taken at face value, I agree with him. Rob Neyer wrote that the 2003 (or 2004) Tampa Bay Devil Rays would beat the 1927 Yankees. I'm inclined to agree. Example:

Saturday, April 19, 1947

For the only time in the history of the men's open race, a world-best was established at the Boston Marathon when Korean Yun Bok Suh turned in a 2:25:39 performance.

That would have placed 26th in this year's version of the Boston Marathon.

:sigh:Here we go again. The one supposition you need to make is that the players of yesteryear have access to the same training facilites, supplements, nutrition and every other advantage which the athlete of today enjoys. That's the only way to make a fair comparison.

I still contend that even IF you could take a player in his prime, as is, from the 50's & 60's, he would be a great player today even without the benefit of the advancements.

I'm pretty sure Levin isn't granting you that supposition. Can you even imagine Bob Pettit at 6'9, 205, one of the greatest players in the history of th game, stopping Amare Stoudamire at 6'10, 245?

Perhaps not. But I do think that Wilt would have his way with Shaq, at least on the offensive end of the court. I simply refuse to believe that guys like Bubba Smith, Bob Lilly, Doug Atkins, Deacon Jones and Gino Marchetti would get pushed around today. Are you going to tell me that JIM BROWN would not be great today???C'mon, man....

 

[Chase Stuart]

Only 16 LBs ever have made the HOF. From the looks of things, the OLBs are (and Junior Seau will certainly be on this list one day):

Jack Ham

Dave Wilcox, SF

Ted Hendrix, Baltimore/GB/Oakland-LA

Bobby Bell, KC

As far as I can tell, LT was the most recent and fifth OLB inducted.

Levin says none of these guys would even make an NFL Europe roster.

Taken at face value, I agree with him. Rob Neyer wrote that the 2003 (or 2004) Tampa Bay Devil Rays would beat the 1927 Yankees. I'm inclined to agree. Example:

Saturday, April 19, 1947

For the only time in the history of the men's open race, a world-best was established at the Boston Marathon when Korean Yun Bok Suh turned in a 2:25:39 performance.

That would have placed 26th in this year's version of the Boston Marathon.

:sigh:Here we go again. The one supposition you need to make is that the players of yesteryear have access to the same training facilites, supplements, nutrition and every other advantage which the athlete of today enjoys. That's the only way to make a fair comparison.

I still contend that even IF you could take a player in his prime, as is, from the 50's & 60's, he would be a great player today even without the benefit of the advancements.

I'm pretty sure Levin isn't granting you that supposition. Can you even imagine Bob Pettit at 6'9, 205, one of the greatest players in the history of th game, stopping Amare Stoudamire at 6'10, 245?

Perhaps not. But I do think that Wilt would have his way with Shaq, at least on the offensive end of the court. I simply refuse to believe that guys like Bubba Smith, Bob Lilly, Doug Atkins, Deacon Jones and Gino Marchetti would get pushed around today. Are you going to tell me that JIM BROWN would not be great today???C'mon, man....

It's like NFL vs. NCAA. The great ones, like Brown and Jones and Marchetti would still be pretty darn good. But Brown's 250 lb OL would be in trouble facing heavier and faster DL. And the fringe starters? The 1966 Packers would be in a lot of trouble against the 2004 49ers. And if they switched coaches, I doubt the Packers would score a point.

 

[Raider Nation]

Only 16 LBs ever have made the HOF. From the looks of things, the OLBs are (and Junior Seau will certainly be on this list one day):

Jack Ham

Dave Wilcox, SF

Ted Hendrix, Baltimore/GB/Oakland-LA

Bobby Bell, KC

As far as I can tell, LT was the most recent and fifth OLB inducted.

Levin says none of these guys would even make an NFL Europe roster.

Taken at face value, I agree with him. Rob Neyer wrote that the 2003 (or 2004) Tampa Bay Devil Rays would beat the 1927 Yankees. I'm inclined to agree. Example:

Saturday, April 19, 1947

For the only time in the history of the men's open race, a world-best was established at the Boston Marathon when Korean Yun Bok Suh turned in a 2:25:39 performance.

That would have placed 26th in this year's version of the Boston Marathon.

:sigh:Here we go again. The one supposition you need to make is that the players of yesteryear have access to the same training facilites, supplements, nutrition and every other advantage which the athlete of today enjoys. That's the only way to make a fair comparison.

I still contend that even IF you could take a player in his prime, as is, from the 50's & 60's, he would be a great player today even without the benefit of the advancements.

I'm pretty sure Levin isn't granting you that supposition. Can you even imagine Bob Pettit at 6'9, 205, one of the greatest players in the history of th game, stopping Amare Stoudamire at 6'10, 245?

Perhaps not. But I do think that Wilt would have his way with Shaq, at least on the offensive end of the court. I simply refuse to believe that guys like Bubba Smith, Bob Lilly, Doug Atkins, Deacon Jones and Gino Marchetti would get pushed around today. Are you going to tell me that JIM BROWN would not be great today???C'mon, man....

But Brown's 250 lb OL would be in trouble facing heavier and faster DL

Sorry for the snippage, but I want to address this one main issue.Forget Brown's linemen. I am asking you, if you could take Jim Brown in his 8-rushing-titles-in-9-years prime and put him behind an average offensive line of today, he would not still be flat-out GREAT???

 

[BoltBacker]

Lambert was a MLB, and one of the best there ever was. He made 9 consecutive Pro Bowls, from 1975-1983.

Jack Ham was his OLB teammate, and he made 8 consecutive Pro Bowls from 1973-1980. He was pretty darn good too.

Andy Ruseell manned the other OLB spot, and he made six consecutive Pro Bowls, from 1970-1975.

Only 16 LBs ever have made the HOF. From the looks of things, the OLBs are (and Junior Seau will certainly be on this list one day):

Jack Ham

Dave Wilcox, SF

Ted Hendrix, Baltimore/GB/Oakland-LA

Bobby Bell, KC

As far as I can tell, LT was the most recent and fifth OLB inducted.

Good info there Chase, thanks.Don't they go on about Bobby Bell on ESPN from time to time? Maybe he was the best ever.

Also a good call on your part, Raidernation. Brooks is one of my favorite players and obviously one of his strengths is pass coverage. I'd be tempted to take him ahead of LT. Both are very good players and better than Seau imo. I've never felt Seau was as good as advertised(save maybe the year or two before they got to the SuperBowl). Always felt Harrison was the best player on the defense and Seau got some of the Mike Singletary love for being such a good leader on/off the field. In any case, NONE of these guys can compare with Ray Lewis. Especially Ray Lewis from 1999-2003.

 

[P Boy]

What you call being loud/quiet I call the difference between one of hte best leaders in the history of the game and an average leader.

So what you are saying is that in order to be a leader, a player has to be an abrasive, loud, camera-preening, self-promoter? And that a player can't be a strong leader & be relatively quiet at the same time?Have you ever played sports? Seriously - not intended to be derrogatory in any way.

I'll retract that last question. It wasn't meant to be demeaning in any way, but I'm sure it will be taken that way. Instead, I'll challenge you to buy a copy of "Instant Replay" by Jerry Kramer - it's a great read all around for anyone that loves football. While you are reading, pay close attention to what the Packers' team & coaches thought of Bart Starr despite his demeanor, and exactly how great a leader that Starr was.

 

[Chaka]

Only 16 LBs ever have made the HOF. From the looks of things, the OLBs are (and Junior Seau will certainly be on this list one day)

Until he got to Miami Junior was a MLB in San Diego and at USC.

I've never felt Seau was as good as advertised(save maybe the year or two before they got to the SuperBowl). Always felt Harrison was the best player on the defense and Seau got some of the Mike Singletary love for being such a good leader on/off the field.

Interesting comment from the BoltBacker. You know that Junior was a 4 time NFL All Pro before 1996 (Rodney's first year starting in SD) and a 3 time NFL All Pro since 1996. Not to say Rodney isn't a force but I hardly think Junior was riding on his coat-tails.And looking at those 7 All Pro teams and 12 Pro Bowls I might take Junior before Ray Ray.

 

[Bankerguy]

NO.....hope this helps.

 

[RavenFan]

For those of you saying no, take a look at the defensive MPV awards throughout the years. Ray has won two, Singletary won two, LT won three, and no other LB has won more than one (including Junior who's won zippy). These men were not only the best at their position, they were the best in the league on the entire defensive side of the ball. The argument starts and ends with these three (LT being the best imo).

 

[Chase Stuart]

For those of you saying no, take a look at the defensive MPV awards throughout the years. Ray has won two, Singletary won two, LT won three, and no other LB has won more than one (including Junior who's won zippy). These men were not only the best at their position, they were the best in the league on the entire defensive side of the ball. The argument starts and ends with these three (LT being the best imo).

Hey RavenFan,ANY MVP award in ANY sport is not very useful in judging how good a player is. I barely follow the sham process and could hardly tell you who won in any given year. Unless it's blatantly obvious, the voters get it more wrong than right.

 

[jwvdcw]

Only 16 LBs ever have made the HOF. From the looks of things, the OLBs are (and Junior Seau will certainly be on this list one day):

Jack Ham

Dave Wilcox, SF

Ted Hendrix, Baltimore/GB/Oakland-LA

Bobby Bell, KC

As far as I can tell, LT was the most recent and fifth OLB inducted.

Levin says none of these guys would even make an NFL Europe roster.

Taken at face value, I agree with him. Rob Neyer wrote that the 2003 (or 2004) Tampa Bay Devil Rays would beat the 1927 Yankees. I'm inclined to agree. Example:

Saturday, April 19, 1947

For the only time in the history of the men's open race, a world-best was established at the Boston Marathon when Korean Yun Bok Suh turned in a 2:25:39 performance.

That would have placed 26th in this year's version of the Boston Marathon.

:sigh:Here we go again. The one supposition you need to make is that the players of yesteryear have access to the same training facilites, supplements, nutrition and every other advantage which the athlete of today enjoys. That's the only way to make a fair comparison.

I still contend that even IF you could take a player in his prime, as is, from the 50's & 60's, he would be a great player today even without the benefit of the advancements.

Thats all fine and dandy, but if we're going by that assumption, then lets also assume that the players of yesteryear will have to deal with today's media....Just as an example: How do you think Babe Ruth would deal with a NY media constantly bashing him for being out of shape and for being a known alcoholic and party guy? Or how about all of the grief Ty Cobb would recieve for being such a dirty player?

 

[jwvdcw]

What you call being loud/quiet I call the difference between one of hte best leaders in the history of the game and an average leader.

So what you are saying is that in order to be a leader, a player has to be an abrasive, loud, camera-preening, self-promoter? And that a player can't be a strong leader & be relatively quiet at the same time?Have you ever played sports? Seriously - not intended to be derrogatory in any way.

I'll retract that last question. It wasn't meant to be demeaning in any way, but I'm sure it will be taken that way. Instead, I'll challenge you to buy a copy of "Instant Replay" by Jerry Kramer - it's a great read all around for anyone that loves football. While you are reading, pay close attention to what the Packers' team & coaches thought of Bart Starr despite his demeanor, and exactly how great a leader that Starr was.

I have played sports: football and wrestling in HS and DII college basketball.No, I am not saying that a player needs to be loud to be a leader. I am saying that Ray Lewis does lead by being loud. And he is a great leader. So for you or anyone else to critsize him as a 'loudmouth' or a 'self promoter' is just plain wrong...he does all that for a reason- it helps his team and himself get fired up.

 

[jwvdcw]

What you call being loud/quiet I call the difference between one of hte best leaders in the history of the game and an average leader.

So what you are saying is that in order to be a leader, a player has to be an abrasive, loud, camera-preening, self-promoter? And that a player can't be a strong leader & be relatively quiet at the same time?Have you ever played sports? Seriously - not intended to be derrogatory in any way.

I'll retract that last question. It wasn't meant to be demeaning in any way, but I'm sure it will be taken that way. Instead, I'll challenge you to buy a copy of "Instant Replay" by Jerry Kramer - it's a great read all around for anyone that loves football. While you are reading, pay close attention to what the Packers' team & coaches thought of Bart Starr despite his demeanor, and exactly how great a leader that Starr was.

Just to add an example: Terrell Owens is a loud mouth. He is loud and brash and it is clearly only self promotion. Ray is a leader. I have never heard any of Ray's current or former teamates complain about Ray...can't say the same for TO.And I'm not trying to bash TO here....just trying to show the difference between a leader and a loudmouth.

 

[jwvdcw]

For those of you saying no, take a look at the defensive MPV awards throughout the years.  Ray has won two, Singletary won two, LT won three, and no other LB has won more than one (including Junior who's won zippy).  These men were not only the best at their position, they were the best in the league on the entire defensive side of the ball.  The argument starts and ends with these three (LT being the best imo).

Hey RavenFan,ANY MVP award in ANY sport is not very useful in judging how good a player is. I barely follow the sham process and could hardly tell you who won in any given year. Unless it's blatantly obvious, the voters get it more wrong than right.

I disagree with this. Although there is always sure to be some who disagree(Nash over Shaq this year), I'd say that in most all sports its a pretty fair process....its not like All Star games, which I agree are a terrible way to measure a player's worth.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

results of the poll are pretty clear that Ray is not the best MLB everI am a little surprised at how many people voted yes

 

[BoltBacker]

Interesting comment from the BoltBacker. You know that Junior was a 4 time NFL All Pro before 1996 (Rodney's first year starting in SD) and a 3 time NFL All Pro since 1996. Not to say Rodney isn't a force but I hardly think Junior was riding on his coat-tails.

And looking at those 7 All Pro teams and 12 Pro Bowls I might take Junior before Ray Ray.

Yes, I did know that. And when people were measuring talent by # of pro-bowls earlier in the thread(ugh) I was surprised Seau's name wasn't mentioned. FBG's of course will realize that all too often pro-bowl selections can far too easily be a popularity contest.Don't get me wrong, he was a good player but the first 1/3rd of his career he relied almost 100% on athletic ability and was in the wrong position when opponents made huge plays all the time. The last 1/3rd of his career his body started to breakdown and he was getting by with heart/experience most of the time but if you saw as many games as I did you'd realize he was almost ALWAYS a step too slow to make the great play and how he snuck in those last few pro-bowls is a complete mystery to me. There really were only a few years where he played smart and was still a gifted physical talent.

This won't sit well with a lot of people but if you were to ask if I'd rather draft Seau as a rookie and have him his entire career or Donnie Edwards as a rookie for his entire career I'd probably take Edwards. Edwards didn't peak quite as high as Seau those few years in the middle of his career, but Edwards has been more steady throughout. Leadership would definitely fall on the side of Seau, but keep in mind all too often Seau was the leader on the 29th ranked defense in the league. Takes a 'lil of the luster off it to me.

 

[BoltBacker]

results of the poll are pretty clear that Ray is not the best MLB ever

Disagree. Data incomplete.What if no other individual MLB would have gotten 20% of the vote? Wouldn't that mean(according to the board) Lewis was the best MLB?

 

[Chaka]

Interesting comment from the BoltBacker.  You know that Junior was a 4 time NFL All Pro before 1996 (Rodney's first year starting in SD) and a 3 time NFL All Pro since 1996.  Not to say Rodney isn't a force but I hardly think Junior was riding on his coat-tails.

And looking at those 7 All Pro teams and 12 Pro Bowls I might take Junior before Ray Ray.

Yes, I did know that. And when people were measuring talent by # of pro-bowls earlier in the thread(ugh) I was surprised Seau's name wasn't mentioned. FBG's of course will realize that all too often pro-bowl selections can far too easily be a popularity contest.Don't get me wrong, he was a good player but the first 1/3rd of his career he relied almost 100% on athletic ability and was in the wrong position when opponents made huge plays all the time. The last 1/3rd of his career his body started to breakdown and he was getting by with heart/experience most of the time but if you saw as many games as I did you'd realize he was almost ALWAYS a step too slow to make the great play and how he snuck in those last few pro-bowls is a complete mystery to me. There really were only a few years where he played smart and was still a gifted physical talent.

This won't sit well with a lot of people but if you were to ask if I'd rather draft Seau as a rookie and have him his entire career or Donnie Edwards as a rookie for his entire career I'd probably take Edwards. Edwards didn't peak quite as high as Seau those few years in the middle of his career, but Edwards has been more steady throughout. Leadership would definitely fall on the side of Seau, but keep in mind all too often Seau was the leader on the 29th ranked defense in the league. Takes a 'lil of the luster off it to me.

I agree that pro bowls can become popularity votes (certainly Junior's 12th in his first season in Miami was) but All Pro teams are not and Junior was on 7 of those. Ten LBs make the Pro Bowl every year but only four are All Pro.And I lived in San Diego for all but the last two years of Junior's career there and I find it amazing that two people can watch exactly the same thing and draw entirely different conclusions.