All religions are cults (1 Viewer)

[urbanhack]

Right. Neitzsche said "God is dead". I get my atheists mixed up sometimes.

So did Trent Reznor.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

 

[wikkidpissah]

Religion would be one of the most interesting subjects to discuss - being that it is the largest obstacle to civilization moving forward, yet the loss of its structure being the largest reason civilization is currently falling backward - if debate didnt invariably devolve into offensive defensiveness. Dont think this is the way in to changing that.

You are correct and I am sorry.

no need, ol buddy. been away awhile and am chagrined, upon my return, to see my fave forum become that much more hysterical about the placement of the chairs on Titanic's desk and ever more insouciant about fixing the whole in the ####in boat. havent the stomach to go back to the same ol side-bustin' crap.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Religion would be one of the most interesting subjects to discuss - being that it is the largest obstacle to civilization moving forward, yet the loss of its structure being the largest reason civilization is currently falling backward - if debate didnt invariably devolve into offensive defensiveness. Dont think this is the way in to changing that.

You are correct and I am sorry.

no need, ol buddy. been away awhile and am chagrined, upon my return, to see my fave forum become that much more hysterical about the placement of the chairs on Titanic's desk and ever more insouciant about fixing the whole in the ####in boat. havent the stomach to go back to the same ol side-bustin' crap.

It is possible to have a respectful discussion on religion here. Just have to try and ignore the trolls - don't respond and let them take it off the rails. It's difficult, but it is possible. See the last several pages of the Is Atheism Irrational thread.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Right. Neitzsche said "God is dead". I get my atheists mixed up sometimes.

So did Trent Reznor.

As Nietszche said, "god money's not looking for the cure"

 

[wikkidpissah]

Religion would be one of the most interesting subjects to discuss - being that it is the largest obstacle to civilization moving forward, yet the loss of its structure being the largest reason civilization is currently falling backward - if debate didnt invariably devolve into offensive defensiveness. Dont think this is the way in to changing that.

You are correct and I am sorry.

no need, ol buddy. been away awhile and am chagrined, upon my return, to see my fave forum become that much more hysterical about the placement of the chairs on Titanic's desk and ever more insouciant about fixing the whole in the ####in boat. havent the stomach to go back to the same ol side-bustin' crap.

It is possible to have a respectful discussion on religion here. Just have to try and ignore the trolls - don't respond and let them take it off the rails. It's difficult, but it is possible. See the last several pages of the Is Atheism Irrational thread.

Yeah - not bad. After seeing how impossibly lame the political threads are, when i hit on the IAI? thread and saw popsecret - alias, right? - @ work, i thought 'more of the same'. thx for sending me back further - i'll keep an eye on it.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Any entity can use God as their leader for religion/cult. Greek gods and Roman gods are a mockery. But us, we got it right!

Uh...no.

John 14:6 New International Version (NIV)

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If you have a beef with that, take it up with God, because He said it, not me.

You have zero proof of this.

 

[IC FBGCav]

It really scares me how programmed I am by the Catholic Church from when I was kid. I feel guilty even thinking about other views. They sell it well.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It really scares me how programmed I am by the Catholic Church from when I was kid. I feel guilty even thinking about other views. They sell it well.

And yet somehow you found the free will to escape their horrible clutches. How did that happen? They must have tried to keep you from escaping? Held you in a compound? Maybe gave you some acid laced kool-aid? Did you jump a fence and some caring family members or friends hired a couple mercenaries to pick you up on the side of the road?

 

[IC FBGCav]

It really scares me how programmed I am by the Catholic Church from when I was kid. I feel guilty even thinking about other views. They sell it well.

And yet somehow you found the free will to escape their horrible clutches. How did that happen? They must have tried to keep you from escaping? Held you in a compound? Maybe gave you some acid laced kool-aid? Did you jump a fence and some caring family members or friends hired a couple mercenaries to pick you up on the side of the road?

Actually our CYO team brought a keg in the gym after a Pittsburgh tournament. They didn't mind the dunking off the stage stairs but the underage drinking was a no no. Lying to the pastors face about it didn't help either.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It really scares me how programmed I am by the Catholic Church from when I was kid. I feel guilty even thinking about other views. They sell it well.

And yet somehow you found the free will to escape their horrible clutches. How did that happen? They must have tried to keep you from escaping? Held you in a compound? Maybe gave you some acid laced kool-aid? Did you jump a fence and some caring family members or friends hired a couple mercenaries to pick you up on the side of the road?

Actually our CYO team brought a keg in the gym after a Pittsburgh tournament. They didn't mind the dunking off the stage stairs but the underage drinking was a no no. Lying to the pastors face about it didn't help either.

Yes, very cultish. Sorry you had to go through that.

 

[IC FBGCav]

After I married a baptist woman(this is like 15 years) and I did not get married by a Catholic priest, I was told I was living in sin and had to "correct" things to be a member of a church near where we moved. I only visited them that one time to talk with the priest and never attended mass. But out of the goodness of their hearts they call me a few times a year to ask me donate to the church. They call me to donate to recently deceased members funeral too. I am so fortunate for them looking out for me. Great people and priorities there. I feel the love.

 

[IC FBGCav]

It really scares me how programmed I am by the Catholic Church from when I was kid. I feel guilty even thinking about other views. They sell it well.

And yet somehow you found the free will to escape their horrible clutches. How did that happen? They must have tried to keep you from escaping? Held you in a compound? Maybe gave you some acid laced kool-aid? Did you jump a fence and some caring family members or friends hired a couple mercenaries to pick you up on the side of the road?

Actually our CYO team brought a keg in the gym after a Pittsburgh tournament. They didn't mind the dunking off the stage stairs but the underage drinking was a no no. Lying to the pastors face about it didn't help either.

Yes, very cultish. Sorry you had to go through that.

Thanks man, it was pretty harsh. :thumbsup:

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

After I married a baptist woman(this is like 15 years) and I did not get married by a Catholic priest, I was told I was living in sin and had to "correct" things to be a member of a church near where we moved. I only visited them that one time to talk with the priest and never attended mass. But out of the goodness of their hearts they call me a few times a year to ask me donate to the church. They call me to donate to recently deceased members funeral too. I am so fortunate for them looking out for me. Great people and priorities there. I feel the love.

You feel the Catholic Church is a cult but you married a Baptist girl?

These are the folks that walk down Bourbon Street during Mardi Gras (hint, Catholic celebration) carrying giant crosses with fake blood on their white cloak costumes.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Right. Neitzsche said "God is dead". I get my atheists mixed up sometimes.

So did Trent Reznor.

As Nietszche said, "god money's not looking for the cure"

Bono said "The God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister".

 

[IC FBGCav]

After I married a baptist woman(this is like 15 years) and I did not get married by a Catholic priest, I was told I was living in sin and had to "correct" things to be a member of a church near where we moved. I only visited them that one time to talk with the priest and never attended mass. But out of the goodness of their hearts they call me a few times a year to ask me donate to the church. They call me to donate to recently deceased members funeral too. I am so fortunate for them looking out for me. Great people and priorities there. I feel the love.

You feel the Catholic Church is a cult but you married a Baptist girl?

These are the folks that walk down Bourbon Street during Mardi Gras (hint, Catholic celebration) carrying giant crosses with fake blood on their white cloak costumes.

I feel all churches use cult like techniques to keep their members in line and to donate. It is pretty much a fact.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

After I married a baptist woman(this is like 15 years) and I did not get married by a Catholic priest, I was told I was living in sin and had to "correct" things to be a member of a church near where we moved. I only visited them that one time to talk with the priest and never attended mass. But out of the goodness of their hearts they call me a few times a year to ask me donate to the church. They call me to donate to recently deceased members funeral too. I am so fortunate for them looking out for me. Great people and priorities there. I feel the love.

You feel the Catholic Church is a cult but you married a Baptist girl?

These are the folks that walk down Bourbon Street during Mardi Gras (hint, Catholic celebration) carrying giant crosses with fake blood on their white cloak costumes.

I feel all churches use cult like techniques to keep their members in line and to donate. It is pretty much a fact.

(Ok I was kidding there, but if I had any Likes left that would get one as I admire consistency...).

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Is there some sort of cutoff or benchmark when it comes to the difference between a "cult" and a "religion"? Over 5000 members etc?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Is there some sort of cutoff or benchmark when it comes to the difference between a "cult" and a "religion"? Over 5000 members etc?

I think the Supreme Court actually had a case where a guy invented his own religion in jail and they said yep that counts as a religion so he had to be allowed to practice it. He did have some followers but it wasn't a lot.

 

[Sabertooth]

Sports fandom is a cult too.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Also, I am not anti religion/church. I think many people get positive experiences from it. I am just not programmed to have blind faith in things that go against logic.

 

[FUBAR]

Any entity can use God as their leader for religion/cult. Greek gods and Roman gods are a mockery. But us, we got it right!

Uh...no.

John 14:6 New International Version (NIV)

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If you have a beef with that, take it up with God, because He said it, not me.

You have zero proof of this.

It's hearsay, but the rules of evidence don't apply.

After I married a baptist woman(this is like 15 years) and I did not get married by a Catholic priest, I was told I was living in sin and had to "correct" things to be a member of a church near where we moved. I only visited them that one time to talk with the priest and never attended mass. But out of the goodness of their hearts they call me a few times a year to ask me donate to the church. They call me to donate to recently deceased members funeral too. I am so fortunate for them looking out for me. Great people and priorities there. I feel the love.

You feel the Catholic Church is a cult but you married a Baptist girl?

These are the folks that walk down Bourbon Street during Mardi Gras (hint, Catholic celebration) carrying giant crosses with fake blood on their white cloak costumes.

I feel all churches use cult like techniques to keep their members in line and to donate. It is pretty much a fact.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

So, any of life's great mysteries been solved in here yet?

 

[joffer]

Is say the difference is the degree to which the authority tries to control and manipulate the membership.

 

[Despyzer]

So, any of life's great mysteries been solved in here yet?

Yes, if you want to know whether something is a fact or not, just ask FatUncleJerryBuss how he feels about it. It's a very scientific process.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Is say the difference is the degree to which the authority tries to control and manipulate the membership.

Like condeming people to hell for not following the tenants?

 

[El Floppo]

Is say the difference is the degree to which the authority tries to control and manipulate the membership.

Like condeming people to hell for not following the tenants?

probably squatters.

 

[mr roboto]

Is say the difference is the degree to which the authority tries to control and manipulate the membership.

This is how I've always thought about the distinction.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Is say the difference is the degree to which the authority tries to control and manipulate the membership.

Like condeming people to hell for not following the tenants?

More like putting a burlap over their head and throwing them in a van for trying to escape the compound.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Cults have personality

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

So, any of life's great mysteries been solved in here yet?

Yes, if you want to know whether something is a fact or not, just ask FatUncleJerryBuss how he feels about it. It's a very scientific process.

You didn't know this already? I have him on speed dial.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Pretty sure every major religion in the world today started off/was once called a "cult".

That is likely true. Christianity started out as a mystery cult. Islam started out as a rich guy who got his tribe to believe he was uttering the words of God. The Jews may have had more of a claim to an original religion if they came out of the monotheistic religion of Akhenaten, though that's not solid.

Also not correct. The apostles were originally Jews and many of the early converts were Jews. Rome recognized that Christianity was an offshoot of Judism.

Hm, not sure about that. Also I'm not sure if you're implying that a mystery cult is inherently Roman in nature. But in any event there were non-Jewish adherents in the first 70 years, that's a big part of the debate in Acts and St. Paul's Letters especially.

I believe that Christianity, as we know it today, is the product of the redactors (church in Rome) who successfully unified the Jewish-Christian (who had Peter) and the Gnostic-Christian (Saul/Paul) camps in the first part of the second century. Of those two, I'd say the Pauline-Christian group was more like a "mystery" cult. The Roman church united the Jewish roots of the movement with hellenistic-modern ideas and I believe Marcion, though not credited by history, had a massive impact on the formation of modern Christianity. The other key player, who's influence also was lost to history, is Simon Magus.

Acts was written, in part, to soften the Paul of the epistles and show he was more in line with the Jewish messianic movement by showing he was indeed subordinate to the Jerusalem Apostles...which differed in character from the Paul in Galatians, for instance.

Yes, there were non-Jewish adherents early on... mystery cults.. some labeled heretics, but not before some of their beliefs were grafted in to what became Roman Catholic Christianity.

Thanks, great post. - I might just add I never got the impression that St. Paul was shown to be in line with or subordinating himself with the Jewish adherents in any way, quite the opposite. He often seems derisive and dismissive of them, maybe reluctantly acceding to the greater body only when called down by the leaders (eg Peter), and I guess you're right you do see that in Acts. But that's a whole other issue, thanks for the follow-up, interesting.

Paul is defiant and "not in the least inferior to the super apostles" (2 Cor) in the epistles, where he teaches that the law is a barrier to God and abolished by Jesus' acts of grace on the cross, essentially replacing the law with grace. He is sent to and fro by the apostles and other churches in Acts. He is instructed, by the Jerusalem Apostles, to purify himself with 4 other men because local Jews, zealous for the law, heard he was teaching that Jews should not circumcise their children or live according to jewish customs. So he is instructed to purify himself to show the jews that the rumors were not true and he (Paul) himself is living in obedience to the law.

He circumcises Timothy in Acts as not to offend the jews who knew Timothy's father was greek. I can't imagine he would do this sort of thing in the epistles, given the way he talks about circumcision in Galatians. But anyway, the Paul of Acts and the epistles are different in character. But I believe there is a method to the madness.

Good stuff. Paul was not only defiant, he was directly contradicting "orders" from the Jewish leadership of the Jesus movement in Jerusalem on how to describe and teach about Jesus. They called him back on the carpet and called him a liar, in fact.

And while I think you properly divided the early Jewish Jesus followers (while Jesus certainly taught anti-tribalism, almost all of his followers were Jewish for the first couple decades) from the later gentile Saul/Paul followers, I dont think it is accurate to describe the latter as "Gnostic-Christian". Paul brought Jesus to the Hellenistic/Roman gentiles, who then began to incorporate their own stuff into "Christianity". And while Paul was certainly straying very far from the Jewish Jesus followers in his teachings, his teachings were not what is now commonly understood as Gnostic. If anything, in many ways, the later Gnostic Christians were descended from and closer to the Jewish Jesus followers and Judaism in their beliefs, while the Paul followers grew apart and into what became orthodox Christianity (I know that is simplistic).

 

[CBusAlex]

Cults have personality

It's like Living Color said, "haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate hate".

 

[Clifford]

I guess it depends on the definition. Your major religions could not be considered cults based on this one: "a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister."

True. Learned in college that size controls. Cults < sects < denominations

That is the denotation. Of course, the word "cult" has become loaded with connotations since being introduced to the English language, but if we are only looking at the definitions, only the smallest religons could be considered cults.

If true, several of my friends belong to a Cult, one of the biggest in the US that currently makes about $40m a year.

http://weldbham.com/blog/2015/02/24/the-evolution-of-church-birmingham-alabama/

Check out these passages:

As the worship music subsided, a screen was lowered over the stage and the face of Hodges appeared. He asked the congregation to bow their heads. Hundreds of heads bowed in unison towards the screen. This is the standard procedure on Sunday nights at COTH, when the morning’s service is always rebroadcasted on the big screen.

In spite of this pastoral detachment, parishioners are not deterred from interacting with the prerecorded message, even repeating the pastor’s words when asked to, as if he were standing in the flesh awaiting a response from the audience.

Over the course of several months, Weld reached out to the COTH administration seeking an interview about the modernization of church culture and the growth their church has seen in the last 14 years. But emails, calls and even an in-person visit were all met with the same response: “We typically don’t talk to the media.”

In order for followers to remain active and continue to spread the church’s message, the megachurch manufactures its own form of guilt, according to Malysz.

“It creates its own kind of guilt if people just take time to rest and reflect.

 

[peaces]

Right. Neitzsche said "God is dead". I get my atheists mixed up sometimes.

So did Trent Reznor.

And Carnivore

 

[Jayrok]

And while I think you properly divided the early Jewish Jesus followers (while Jesus certainly taught anti-tribalism, almost all of his followers were Jewish for the first couple decades) from the later gentile Saul/Paul followers, I dont think it is accurate to describe the latter as "Gnostic-Christian". Paul brought Jesus to the Hellenistic/Roman gentiles, who then began to incorporate their own stuff into "Christianity". And while Paul was certainly straying very far from the Jewish Jesus followers in his teachings, his teachings were not what is now commonly understood as Gnostic. If anything, in many ways, the later Gnostic Christians were descended from and closer to the Jewish Jesus followers and Judaism in their beliefs, while the Paul followers grew apart and into what became orthodox Christianity (I know that is simplistic).

I disagree. But I don't think I did a very good job of explaining what I mean. I'm not saying that Paul was himself a gnostic. I'm saying that I believe the gnostic groups, at least perhaps the most famous gnostic-docetists (e.g. Marcionites), adopted Paul's epistles (at least several of them) as their own sacred texts. Marcion is believed to have redacted several of Paul's letters (especially Galatians) and his version of the gospel of Luke to make and use as his own scriptures for his churches. He rejected the rest of the gospels and the pastoral epistles, along with the OT.

Some scholars think Marcion may have actually written some of the letters in the name of Paul. NT scholar Hermann Detering wrote an excellent book on this theory. The Roman catholic church excommunicated Marcion later in the second century after deeming him a heretic, but his churches flourished for a good long time. He believed that there were two Gods and that Jesus (Paul's Jesus) was the son of the unknown good God.. the one that revealed the "mystery" of grace through Jesus. The other was the God of justice, the Hebrew God of the OT, who created the world and installed the law. The Jewish God (Peter's groups who kept kosher and was the circumcision). Marcion used Paul's idea of grace in that Jesus came from the other God, the true God, to die as a ransom for the sins of man.

In his eyes, Jesus (who was God/God's son) was not sacrificed to himself (and his father the true God) to pay a debt owed to himself. That doesn't make any sense. He was sacrificed to pay the debt owed to the OT God, the God of justice. As a docetist, Marcion believed and taught that Jesus came in the appearance of a man but was not a real flesh and blood man. He couldn't have been a real flesh and blood man because those things are corrupt and part of the evil material world that was created by the lesser OT God. He believed that it is a man's soul that is saved, not his material body. His soul is trapped in the material world by the creation of the world by the OT God. The mystery (gnostic knowledge) is that Jesus paid the price to that God to free man's eternal soul and bring it to the real God, his father, in heaven. And that is all men, not just the Jews. Marcion used much of Paul's epistles as his support scripture. Paul rejected circumcision and even keeping kosher because the Mosaic laws were those of the OT God and his "mystery" is that Jesus came and died to free all men from those terrible restrictions.

Side note: It seems odd, to me, that you have the Jerusalem Apostles... the chosen 12 (well 11, with Judas) by Jesus (in the gospels).. who continued to teach their followers to keep the laws of circumcision and other Jewish requirements of the law, long after Jesus died.. then you have this other guy, Paul, who comes out of the blue and teaches grace apart from the law. He opposes this law and turns to gentiles after essentially being rejected by the jews. Paul's different "gospel" from that of Peter likely led to these fringe Christian groups, such as the gnostics. And Paul claimed to be an apostle chosen by Jesus (albeit through a vision)! In reality, how do we think the Jerusalem chosen 12 would accept such a character, with his warped unorthodoxed gospel? Well, we only know through what we read.

So my point was that I believe the catholic church and its early church leaders/writers used a strategy to incorporate some of the ideas of Marcion along with the other gospels used by the Petrine Christians in a sort of consolidation of ideas that formed the canon and doctrine of the catholic church. I believe Acts was written, as I said above, to help smooth the bridge between Paul's character in Galatians/Ephesians/Colossians with an apostle more in concert with the Jerusalem chosen leaders. The church leaders rejected Marcion and the gnostics and blotted out their personal writings as heresy, but I believe they, cleverly, kept what was useful and through interpolation and redaction of the epistles, completed their canon of scripture. So what we have today is a blend of different ideas that unite both of those original camps (Pauline and Petrine) together in what is known as authoritative scripture. It is only natural that we find areas of contention between the two (i.e. Epistle Paul and Acts Paul, the book of James and Paul, Matthew and Paul).

So no, Paul's teachings were not necessarily gnostic in themselves, and I didn't mean to infer as such. But the idea is that his teachings led to the formation of these gnostic groups and their ideas through a natural progression of thought. Remember, Greek philosophy played a major role in the Roman empire and certainly influenced Paul. The church, IMO, capitalized on this and instead of rejecting these ideas that were different than the Jerusalem jews who continued to follow the law, they merged them into what essentially created a third consolidated gospel uniting both camps.

IMO Acts is a great example of this. Paul circumcising people and we also have Peter who has the vision of eating non-kosher meat and going out of his way to show that gentiles received the Holy Spirit the same as jews. The writer even gave Paul a Jewish name (Saul) at first to appease that side of the fence! A little epistle (and the 4 gospels) redaction here and there and viola... everyone's happy. That is until centuries and centuries later when ratical criticism found its way into scholarship.

It makes sense to me that the church accomplished this, if for nothing else, because would they really want to try and follow all those silly Mosaic laws and get circumcised? Heavens no. And they rejected gnosticism. So this gave them the perfect solution, even if they had to include some of books the heretic Marcion used (and potentially authored?) as support scripture.

Sorry for the length.

 

[Todd Andrews]

And while I think you properly divided the early Jewish Jesus followers (while Jesus certainly taught anti-tribalism, almost all of his followers were Jewish for the first couple decades) from the later gentile Saul/Paul followers, I dont think it is accurate to describe the latter as "Gnostic-Christian". Paul brought Jesus to the Hellenistic/Roman gentiles, who then began to incorporate their own stuff into "Christianity". And while Paul was certainly straying very far from the Jewish Jesus followers in his teachings, his teachings were not what is now commonly understood as Gnostic. If anything, in many ways, the later Gnostic Christians were descended from and closer to the Jewish Jesus followers and Judaism in their beliefs, while the Paul followers grew apart and into what became orthodox Christianity (I know that is simplistic).

I disagree. But I don't think I did a very good job of explaining what I mean. I'm not saying that Paul was himself a gnostic. I'm saying that I believe the gnostic groups, at least perhaps the most famous gnostic-docetists (e.g. Marcionites), adopted Paul's epistles (at least several of them) as their own sacred texts. Marcion is believed to have redacted several of Paul's letters (especially Galatians) and his version of the gospel of Luke to make and use as his own scriptures for his churches. He rejected the rest of the gospels and the pastoral epistles, along with the OT.

Some scholars think Marcion may have actually written some of the letters in the name of Paul. NT scholar Hermann Detering wrote an excellent book on this theory. The Roman catholic church excommunicated Marcion later in the second century after deeming him a heretic, but his churches flourished for a good long time. He believed that there were two Gods and that Jesus (Paul's Jesus) was the son of the unknown good God.. the one that revealed the "mystery" of grace through Jesus. The other was the God of justice, the Hebrew God of the OT, who created the world and installed the law. The Jewish God (Peter's groups who kept kosher and was the circumcision). Marcion used Paul's idea of grace in that Jesus came from the other God, the true God, to die as a ransom for the sins of man.

In his eyes, Jesus (who was God/God's son) was not sacrificed to himself (and his father the true God) to pay a debt owed to himself. That doesn't make any sense. He was sacrificed to pay the debt owed to the OT God, the God of justice. As a docetist, Marcion believed and taught that Jesus came in the appearance of a man but was not a real flesh and blood man. He couldn't have been a real flesh and blood man because those things are corrupt and part of the evil material world that was created by the lesser OT God. He believed that it is a man's soul that is saved, not his material body. His soul is trapped in the material world by the creation of the world by the OT God. The mystery (gnostic knowledge) is that Jesus paid the price to that God to free man's eternal soul and bring it to the real God, his father, in heaven. And that is all men, not just the Jews. Marcion used much of Paul's epistles as his support scripture. Paul rejected circumcision and even keeping kosher because the Mosaic laws were those of the OT God and his "mystery" is that Jesus came and died to free all men from those terrible restrictions.

Side note: It seems odd, to me, that you have the Jerusalem Apostles... the chosen 12 (well 11, with Judas) by Jesus (in the gospels).. who continued to teach their followers to keep the laws of circumcision and other Jewish requirements of the law, long after Jesus died.. then you have this other guy, Paul, who comes out of the blue and teaches grace apart from the law. He opposes this law and turns to gentiles after essentially being rejected by the jews. Paul's different "gospel" from that of Peter likely led to these fringe Christian groups, such as the gnostics. And Paul claimed to be an apostle chosen by Jesus (albeit through a vision)! In reality, how do we think the Jerusalem chosen 12 would accept such a character, with his warped unorthodoxed gospel? Well, we only know through what we read.

So my point was that I believe the catholic church and its early church leaders/writers used a strategy to incorporate some of the ideas of Marcion along with the other gospels used by the Petrine Christians in a sort of consolidation of ideas that formed the canon and doctrine of the catholic church. I believe Acts was written, as I said above, to help smooth the bridge between Paul's character in Galatians/Ephesians/Colossians with an apostle more in concert with the Jerusalem chosen leaders. The church leaders rejected Marcion and the gnostics and blotted out their personal writings as heresy, but I believe they, cleverly, kept what was useful and through interpolation and redaction of the epistles, completed their canon of scripture. So what we have today is a blend of different ideas that unite both of those original camps (Pauline and Petrine) together in what is known as authoritative scripture. It is only natural that we find areas of contention between the two (i.e. Epistle Paul and Acts Paul, the book of James and Paul, Matthew and Paul).

So no, Paul's teachings were not necessarily gnostic in themselves, and I didn't mean to infer as such. But the idea is that his teachings led to the formation of these gnostic groups and their ideas through a natural progression of thought. Remember, Greek philosophy played a major role in the Roman empire and certainly influenced Paul. The church, IMO, capitalized on this and instead of rejecting these ideas that were different than the Jerusalem jews who continued to follow the law, they merged them into what essentially created a third consolidated gospel uniting both camps.

IMO Acts is a great example of this. Paul circumcising people and we also have Peter who has the vision of eating non-kosher meat and going out of his way to show that gentiles received the Holy Spirit the same as jews. The writer even gave Paul a Jewish name (Saul) at first to appease that side of the fence! A little epistle (and the 4 gospels) redaction here and there and viola... everyone's happy. That is until centuries and centuries later when ratical criticism found its way into scholarship.

It makes sense to me that the church accomplished this, if for nothing else, because would they really want to try and follow all those silly Mosaic laws and get circumcised? Heavens no. And they rejected gnosticism. So this gave them the perfect solution, even if they had to include some of books the heretic Marcion used (and potentially authored?) as support scripture.

Sorry for the length.

Great stuff. I agree with your clarification. Of course, what we understand now as the Gnostics grew primarily from Paul's mission and followers and the incorporation of Hellenistic principles, etc., into what became Christianity. I was just saying that Paul himself and his immediate followers werent what we now call Gnostic. The Gnostics also drew on the teachings of the original Jewish church, too.

 

[Jayrok]

Great stuff. I agree with your clarification. Of course, what we understand now as the Gnostics grew primarily from Paul's mission and followers and the incorporation of Hellenistic principles, etc., into what became Christianity. I was just saying that Paul himself and his immediate followers werent what we now call Gnostic. The Gnostics also drew on the teachings of the original Jewish church, too.

Yes, I agree the gnostics also drew from the teachings from the Jewish camp. Can't leave out the Jewish scriptures or else it may have been just another Mithraism or some other rising/dying god cult that eventually died off.

 

[matuski]

In the end religion is never more than a given individuals interpretation.

Each persons religion is largely unique even compared to those of the "same" faith.

I'd say no to cult label.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Great stuff. I agree with your clarification. Of course, what we understand now as the Gnostics grew primarily from Paul's mission and followers and the incorporation of Hellenistic principles, etc., into what became Christianity. I was just saying that Paul himself and his immediate followers werent what we now call Gnostic. The Gnostics also drew on the teachings of the original Jewish church, too.

Yes, I agree the gnostics also drew from the teachings from the Jewish camp. Can't leave out the Jewish scriptures or else it may have been just another Mithraism or some other rising/dying god cult that eventually died off.

And we all know christianity incorporated a lot of mithraism, but thats another thread...

 

[IC FBGCav]

I am going on a long post and I don't articulate well in print so please bear with me. I didn't start this thread or any other thread about this subject to look down or discount anything. I do it to help with my own personal search and thank you Wiki for bringing me back to it.

I was born and raised Catholic and attended a Catholic University. There is nothing more that I want to believe there is an afterlife and God and/or Jesus. I still say a prayer before I go to sleep sometimes..."now I lay me down to sleep...etc" I prayed like heck for God to help my mom live and was comforted last year when a priest prayed over my dad on his death bed. I want it all to be true. I just can't believe it is, it makes no sense.

Now to some of the things I can't get past.

Beware of false profits. But you have to have faith in God. I have no idea who wrote the stories in the bible. How can I distinguish between it being a false profit or the truth. I don't know if they were history stories or fables. I don't know, either does anyone else.

God created everything and is everything but needs us to worship him. Makes no sense, that someone that Almighty, needs us to worship him. Why? Just has con written all over it.

God works in mysterious ways, free will, and all the rest are cope outs to having no proof or understanding of how things work. Why did my 2 month old brother die? God needed him? It was his time? Well at least Hitler made the cut. Makes no sense.

I won't even get in to the ways people of the cloth manipulate their authority for sick disgusting things, let alone what they are really about, power and money.

Then I have to look deeper and current and at the world today and forever. Holy wars have been happening for an extremely long time. More people have been killed in the name of God then anything else. How about this God, do what the books said you were going to do and lift up all believers of you. Leave us the ones who don't and then they will deal with earth as hell. But it also sounds like hell will have a great step towards peace.

When I was 10 years old lying in my bed at night, the thought of annihilation terrified me. It still does, but that is what it seems I have to look forward. That's okay, I won't remember any of this them.

Just my thoughts. Do not mean to offend.

Edit: I used personal family examples because these were my thoughts, my thoughts have nothing to do because a family member died.

 

[peaces]

prophet

 

[cstu]

prophet

Freudian slip.

 

[cstu]

God created everything and is everything but needs us to worship him. Makes no sense, that someone that Almighty, needs us to worship him. Why? Just has con written all over it.

Could never get past this as kid going to church.

 

[wikkidpissah]

I am going on a long post and I don't articulate well in print so please bear with me. I didn't start this thread or any other thread about this subject to look down or discount anything. I do it to help with my own personal search and thank you Wiki for bringing me back to it.

I was born and raised Catholic and attended a Catholic University. There is nothing more that I want to believe there is an afterlife and God and/or Jesus. I still say a prayer before I go to sleep sometimes..."now I lay me down to sleep...etc" I prayed like heck for God to help my mom live and was comforted last year when a priest prayed over my dad on his death bed. I want it all to be true. I just can't believe it is, it makes no sense.

Now to some of the things I can't get past.

Beware of false profits. But you have to have faith in God. I have no idea who wrote the stories in the bible. How can I distinguish between it being a false profit or the truth. I don't know if they were history stories or fables. I don't know, either does anyone else.

God created everything and is everything but needs us to worship him. Makes no sense, that someone that Almighty, needs us to worship him. Why? Just has con written all over it.

God works in mysterious ways, free will, and all the rest are cope outs to having no proof or understanding of how things work. Why did my 2 month old brother die? God needed him? It was his time? Well at least Hitler made the cut. Makes no sense.

I won't even get in to the ways people of the cloth manipulate their authority for sick disgusting things, let alone what they are really about, power and money.

Then I have to look deeper and current and at the world today and forever. Holy wars have been happening for an extremely long time. More people have been killed in the name of God then anything else. How about this God, do what the books said you were going to do and lift up all believers of you. Leave us the ones who don't and then they will deal with earth as hell. But it also sounds like hell will have a great step towards peace.

When I was 10 years old lying in my bed at night, the thought of annihilation terrified me. It still does, but that is what it seems I have to look forward. That's okay, I won't remember any of this them.

Just my thoughts. Do not mean to offend.

Edit: I used personal family examples because these were my thoughts, my thoughts have nothing to do because a family member died.

I've a dirty little truth and a dirty little secret to share with you today, my friend.

TRUTH: Religion lasted so long - and i'm putting it in past tense cuz it really is all over but the shouting, a LOT of shouting - because we needed it to. Until recently - in fact now to most of the undeveloped world - scratching life from the earth was simply too hard and all-consuming for a thinking person to perform for no purpose other than survival. There had to be a reason, and pleasing a single, all-powerful God with the power to offer everlasting life was the best myth invented, so Christianity and Islam became the prevailing faiths. Now that life is mechanized and largely assured for most any who would read this post, there is still a very important reason we need religion - the institution of the parish.

As a babyboomer and enormously curious individual, I have been one of the greatest beneficiaries of western society's turn toward personal independence in the last half century, and i've enjoyed that immensely. Though recognizing that there are still liberties yet to be explored and enjoyed, and conceding that some of those freedoms are so new to so many so oppressed for so long that it's gonna be a while before any sensible person can tell them to stop celebrating, it is becoming ever more apparent that allowing all people to be Emperors of their own lives is going turn out to be a collosal mistake. The world simply cannot survive serving 7 billion separate constituencies. There has to be consensus for there to be lasting liberty, and forming consensus can only begin again by downsizing our institutions to a point where individuals feel personal power from cooperating with others. We have exploded and repurposed family in the last generation and now it is time to do the same for the next step in the societal chain, the parish. I don't know if, without the fetish of an abiding God, people will come together on Sundays to be thankful for the miracles of life, love and company and to serve the needs of others in gratitude for what one has, but i DO know that society will be best served if we can.

SECRET: What most people who have "given their lives to Jesus" don't understand is that they have simply turned over executive function of their personality to the portion of their psyches most capable of acting well. Inside each of us are two entities - a feral beast, descendant of the lower forms of life from which we evolved; and the human cerebral cortex, an engine capable of more combinations than there are atoms on this planet. A baboon and a computer, so to speak. Yet to which entity do 99.9999% of us turn for 90% of our decision making? The selfish, petty, seething beast who will try to take everything before anyone can and scream if they don't - that is, if we can get him to stop playing with himself long enough to do anything at all, that's who. The Jesus freak's "conversion" is actually the surrendering of life management to the computer that has already assessed all wants and needs for what they really are and is truly and fully capable of taking care of most everything and knowing where to go for guidance if it can't.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

God created everything and is everything but needs us to worship him. Makes no sense, that someone that Almighty, needs us to worship him. Why? Just has con written all over it.

Could never get past this as kid going to church.

And who asked him to create us in the first place? I didnt choose to be created...who says i wanted to be born so i could worship him? dont i have a choice? If i choose not to my alternative is to burn and suffer for eternity...that's mighty loving of him...thanks bro

 

[proninja]

Jayrok deserves some kind of medal for raising the discussion level in these threads.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I am going on a long post and I don't articulate well in print so please bear with me. I didn't start this thread or any other thread about this subject to look down or discount anything. I do it to help with my own personal search and thank you Wiki for bringing me back to it.

....Just my thoughts. Do not mean to offend.

Edit: I used personal family examples because these were my thoughts, my thoughts have nothing to do because a family member died.

Seems to me this was your original, real point. It's natural to have existential and "big" thoughts about God and the meaning of everything at this juncture. I don't think a forum or message board can handle it. You're dealing with issues that have concerned man since he could first think outside himself, life, death, existence, the universe, everything. A church or religion can provide a framework for understanding that, or the nature of the institution and the texts you're dealing with can bother you so much that you can't get to the bigger questions and answers.