Chadstroma
Footballguy
What is the best alternative fuel source?
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Alternative Fuels for Vehicles (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Chadstroma
- Start date
Chadstroma
Footballguy
perry147
Footballguy
Enlighten us.
Schlzm
Footballguy
Bio-diesel is really nothing more than filtered grease from fast food / fry-cooking. The filtration process is cheap and easy to set up and only takes time to properly filter the chunky bits out of the oil. Existing diesel engines require zero configuration changes to run off this fuel and the output smells like tasty fried food (the only negative I can think of, everyone will be driving hungry). Here are a few sources explaining why refining bio-diesel is the way to go for fun and profit.
BioDiesel.org
BioDiesel Wiki
How to
Bio-diesel can be used in any existing diesel engine to include generators.
Schlzm
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bueno
In a class by himself
Natural gas or propane.
Ethanol and hydrogen require more energy to produce than they supply, plus ethanol requires the use of valuable cropland (or in the case of Brasil, valuable rain forest).
Biodiesel is fine, but is there enough of it?
Natural gas or propane requires almost nothing in the way of conversion and can be put into mass production almost immediately.
Ethanol and hydrogen require more energy to produce than they supply, plus ethanol requires the use of valuable cropland (or in the case of Brasil, valuable rain forest).
Biodiesel is fine, but is there enough of it?
Natural gas or propane requires almost nothing in the way of conversion and can be put into mass production almost immediately.
Jobber
Footballguy
Yeah, for about 10,000 cars nationwide. Any alternative(s) need to be on a much larger scale, IMO.Edited to sound like less of a jerk.
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Chaka
Footballguy
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Schlzm
Footballguy
Wouldn't new vehicles need to be produced to handle the compressed gasses? Bio-diesel is made from food waste so I don't think supply is a concern.Schlzm
bueno
In a class by himself
Minor modifications. Some of my field vehicles in Mexico are natural gas- gasoline hybrids. Done to extend their range when working in remote areas.
Schlzm
Footballguy
Can you get hold of a data sheet for these types of hybrids? I am interested in what type of range increases these could give a vehicle.Schlzm
Homer J Simpson
I don't push
Plug-in hybrids for now...eventually hydrogen.
Oh, and the electricity for the plug-ins should increasingly come from renewable/clean sources...solar in the West, wind/solar in the Midwest, nuclear/clean coal in the Northeast. Mix and match as needed.
Oh, and the electricity for the plug-ins should increasingly come from renewable/clean sources...solar in the West, wind/solar in the Midwest, nuclear/clean coal in the Northeast. Mix and match as needed.
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Homer J Simpson
I don't push
Oh, and poor people.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I tend to think that hydrogen is likely the best long term solution. Doesn't NASA have tons of experience with this?
There are some significant issues and challenges that need to be addressed and over come in order for it to really be a replacement for our current vehicles.
There are some significant issues and challenges that need to be addressed and over come in order for it to really be a replacement for our current vehicles.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Anonymous Internet User
Footballguy
i voted for other
"gasoline"
"gasoline"
mattdaddy
Footballguy
I agree with this. We are way too far away from getting a significant number of machines on hydrogen but biodeisel can be used in existing deisel engines. Specifically, algea based biodeisel can be produced in large quantities with a very small footprint and doesn't produce any more CO2 than is consumed. From http://oakhavenpc.org/cultivating_algae.htm
Gallons of Oil per
Acre per Year
Corn
18
Soybeans
48
Safflower
83
Sunflower
102
Rapeseed
127
Oil Palm
635
Micro Algae
5000-15000
The Juggernaut
The Man. The Myth
I'd add nuclear as well.
Here is what I know off the top of my head.
Ethanol - Ethanol is a blend of fuel that can be made from corn, sugar, and soon enough, from switch grass and other organic biomass. They are currently developing synthetic lab based ethanols that would not require any of these substances. The corn based causes a problem because of the limited supply of corn in the US. Corn is used as feed for cattle, pigs, horses, dairy cows, chickens, etc., and well as being a food stuff. To switch the nation to a corn based ethanol would require massive quantities of corn that would drive the prices of dairy products, meats of all kinds, poultry, and corn as a food through the roof. There are also questions about how much better it actually is on the environment, as recent studies have shown that it has its own harmful, yet different, byproducts that are given off (and would be given off in massive quantities with a national or global shift to ethanol). Also, ethanol is not as efficient as regular gas, so you need more to go farther, almost balancing out the cost benefit of the product on a per gallon basis. The bottom line is that the world can't run on corn based ethanol. It does not drive down the price of gas, drives up the price of food, pollutes just the same but in a different way, and is not realistic in terms of the quantities needed. Sugar based ethanol, on the other hand, is proving very popular in Brazil. Sugar is a very limited crop in terms of its usage and is very easy to produce in massive quantities in certain climates. The Brazilian Government has already shifted a huge percentage of its automobiles to sugar based ethanol. I don't know its efficiency rating or its polluting qualities, but I would assume its similar to corn based. While this would succeed in getting the nation away from oil, it would simply make us dependent on Brazil and other equatorial regions for fuel, as well as leaving questions on the if the quantity required is available or possible. Switch grass based ethanol is coming and is based out of Washington State. It is a byproduct of the forestry industry and basically entails taking all of the sticks and twigs and biomass of grasses and other weeds and producing an ethanol blend from that. I hear that is only a couple years off. Finally, the synthetic is its own avenue, but there are massive manufacturing issues considering the 25 million barrels of oil a day the US goes through in oil. Can enough synthetic be produced to the do the same? I'm not sure of the polluting qualities or efficiency ratings of this either, as it is still a developmental technology.
Biodiesel - I don't know as much about biodiesel. What I do know is that it is a fuel that is based on vegetable oil and it has been demonstrated in vehicles, trains, and even in planes. The cars that have used it are only 5-10% biodiesel and at this point and it is more of a gas price reducer than a replacer. Biodiesel has contamination issues, as it is apparently not very difficult to screw it up (water causes problems) and I believe it also has efficiency issues.
Natural Gas - Not sure what you are looking for here. Natural gas is expensive. It burns cleaner than coal and oil power plants, but it costs more to produce. The US has massive natural gas stores under it and this will probably remain a fixture energy source in the US for quite some time. Many states won't sign off on any new coal, oil, or nuclear power plants, but they will sign off on natural gas. If they are still building them here and they have a 30-50 year life spans, then they will be here for awhile.
Propane - Effective for heating rural homes, but unlikely in major cities. You can't pack giant propane tanks all over a US city like Chicago at each person's house. Imagine the Homeland Security issues there. As far as in cars, there is no effective way to protect a propane tank under pressure in the case of a car accident. That is not a viable option. The gas cannot be stored under pressure in a vehicle safely.
Hydrogen - This is a very viable long term solution. It has some problems that need to be worked through, but it is an option. Fuel cell technology (hydrogen) works by taking stored hydrogen and stored oxygen separated by a fuel cell. The cell allows the hydrogen atom to pass through to fuse with an oxygen atom, which it wants to naturally do to make water. But the cell will not allow the electrons to pass through the cell from the hydrogen. They are forced over and around, creating a electric circuit. That electric power is used to power a generator which drives the vehicle. The major issues here are how to produce and store enough hydrogen for the entire country to use to power their vehicles, how to overhaul the existing fuel infrastructure in the nation to get everyone on board, and how to drive the cost of this technology down to attainable levels by the average American allowing them to be mass produced. Many feel this is the wave of the long term future and may hit the mainstream (most vehicles using this power source) in 30-50 years. By then, hydrogen can be produced using wave powered generators that separate the oxygen and hydrogen from sea water. Since wave power is very cost effective and non-stop, it would not take from the grid the energy required to complete this process and eliminate the problem of using as much energy to separate the two elements as you would consume.
Other - I guess for other, we'll discuss hybrid technology since you left it off of here. By 2010, hybrid technology should have reached the mainstream in the US. The technology is advancing at a rapid pace and the cost is being driven down with each successive model. To compete with the hybrid technology, plug-in technology is about to make a grand entrance on the mass production stage at about the same time. Hybrid technology uses lithium ion battery packs and small gas engines to power the vehicle. The electric batteries are recharged from the gas engine and from bleeding energy during routine braking. The battery runs to get the car up to 10-15 MPH from a stop, which is when you use the most gas, and then allows the gas engine to kick in and do the easy part. The most effective hybrids can double fuel economy in vehicles. Plug-ins are different. They work by literally plugging into your home outlet. They cost about $1 a day, give or take, to recharge a completely drained battery. The technology debuting in 2010 will allow a midsize vehicle to drive 20-40 miles on battery power alone. When the batter is exhausted, the car's gas powered generator (not engine) kicks in and recharges the engine while you are driving. Some will also recharge the batteries with routine braking. If you have a 25 mile commute total, you could conceivably drive every day to work without using a drop of gas to do so.
Notes - Many technologies will emerge from now until 2010, but few will be mass market technologies, other than technologies like Prius' hybrid system. We will continue to see a transition from various manufacturers as they change their models into hybrids in the coming years. Few cars will not have a hybrid variation by 2015.
Edited to add....
Real life Plasma Arc Technology is used primarily in waste to energy incinerators. They can plug some electricity back into the grid, but are not a viable alternative to energy needs. Solar could eventually develop into a supplemental energy source allowing us to reduce our energy home heating and A/C bills by up to 100% in some instances and climates. Wave Energy is another developing technology, although it is 20-30 years from having a shot at the big time. The leading concept would have a flotation device that would be very large, heavy, and yet float on the waves. It would be connected to a piston under hydraulic pressure under the water. As the waves came through, they would drive the piston up and down merely by the force of the waves. This would allow the piston to steal some of the energy from the wave and transfer it to the grid using various methods. Calculations have shown that a 3 foot wave a half mile long has enough energy to power New York City for a year if you could capture all of its energy. If you haven't been to the ocean in awhile, one of those rolls in every couple seconds on a typical day.
Wind power is also becoming a very viable option, but a limited one. Windmills have to be huge to generate significant energy capacity and most people don't want a giant windmill anywhere near them. I don't understand that because I think they are pretty neat. If I could get some cheap land near a windmill with some water on it, I'd buy that in a second. Advances in wind technology have made them much more realistic as an energy source.
Hope that helped...
Ethanol - Ethanol is a blend of fuel that can be made from corn, sugar, and soon enough, from switch grass and other organic biomass. They are currently developing synthetic lab based ethanols that would not require any of these substances. The corn based causes a problem because of the limited supply of corn in the US. Corn is used as feed for cattle, pigs, horses, dairy cows, chickens, etc., and well as being a food stuff. To switch the nation to a corn based ethanol would require massive quantities of corn that would drive the prices of dairy products, meats of all kinds, poultry, and corn as a food through the roof. There are also questions about how much better it actually is on the environment, as recent studies have shown that it has its own harmful, yet different, byproducts that are given off (and would be given off in massive quantities with a national or global shift to ethanol). Also, ethanol is not as efficient as regular gas, so you need more to go farther, almost balancing out the cost benefit of the product on a per gallon basis. The bottom line is that the world can't run on corn based ethanol. It does not drive down the price of gas, drives up the price of food, pollutes just the same but in a different way, and is not realistic in terms of the quantities needed. Sugar based ethanol, on the other hand, is proving very popular in Brazil. Sugar is a very limited crop in terms of its usage and is very easy to produce in massive quantities in certain climates. The Brazilian Government has already shifted a huge percentage of its automobiles to sugar based ethanol. I don't know its efficiency rating or its polluting qualities, but I would assume its similar to corn based. While this would succeed in getting the nation away from oil, it would simply make us dependent on Brazil and other equatorial regions for fuel, as well as leaving questions on the if the quantity required is available or possible. Switch grass based ethanol is coming and is based out of Washington State. It is a byproduct of the forestry industry and basically entails taking all of the sticks and twigs and biomass of grasses and other weeds and producing an ethanol blend from that. I hear that is only a couple years off. Finally, the synthetic is its own avenue, but there are massive manufacturing issues considering the 25 million barrels of oil a day the US goes through in oil. Can enough synthetic be produced to the do the same? I'm not sure of the polluting qualities or efficiency ratings of this either, as it is still a developmental technology.
Biodiesel - I don't know as much about biodiesel. What I do know is that it is a fuel that is based on vegetable oil and it has been demonstrated in vehicles, trains, and even in planes. The cars that have used it are only 5-10% biodiesel and at this point and it is more of a gas price reducer than a replacer. Biodiesel has contamination issues, as it is apparently not very difficult to screw it up (water causes problems) and I believe it also has efficiency issues.
Natural Gas - Not sure what you are looking for here. Natural gas is expensive. It burns cleaner than coal and oil power plants, but it costs more to produce. The US has massive natural gas stores under it and this will probably remain a fixture energy source in the US for quite some time. Many states won't sign off on any new coal, oil, or nuclear power plants, but they will sign off on natural gas. If they are still building them here and they have a 30-50 year life spans, then they will be here for awhile.
Propane - Effective for heating rural homes, but unlikely in major cities. You can't pack giant propane tanks all over a US city like Chicago at each person's house. Imagine the Homeland Security issues there. As far as in cars, there is no effective way to protect a propane tank under pressure in the case of a car accident. That is not a viable option. The gas cannot be stored under pressure in a vehicle safely.
Hydrogen - This is a very viable long term solution. It has some problems that need to be worked through, but it is an option. Fuel cell technology (hydrogen) works by taking stored hydrogen and stored oxygen separated by a fuel cell. The cell allows the hydrogen atom to pass through to fuse with an oxygen atom, which it wants to naturally do to make water. But the cell will not allow the electrons to pass through the cell from the hydrogen. They are forced over and around, creating a electric circuit. That electric power is used to power a generator which drives the vehicle. The major issues here are how to produce and store enough hydrogen for the entire country to use to power their vehicles, how to overhaul the existing fuel infrastructure in the nation to get everyone on board, and how to drive the cost of this technology down to attainable levels by the average American allowing them to be mass produced. Many feel this is the wave of the long term future and may hit the mainstream (most vehicles using this power source) in 30-50 years. By then, hydrogen can be produced using wave powered generators that separate the oxygen and hydrogen from sea water. Since wave power is very cost effective and non-stop, it would not take from the grid the energy required to complete this process and eliminate the problem of using as much energy to separate the two elements as you would consume.
Other - I guess for other, we'll discuss hybrid technology since you left it off of here. By 2010, hybrid technology should have reached the mainstream in the US. The technology is advancing at a rapid pace and the cost is being driven down with each successive model. To compete with the hybrid technology, plug-in technology is about to make a grand entrance on the mass production stage at about the same time. Hybrid technology uses lithium ion battery packs and small gas engines to power the vehicle. The electric batteries are recharged from the gas engine and from bleeding energy during routine braking. The battery runs to get the car up to 10-15 MPH from a stop, which is when you use the most gas, and then allows the gas engine to kick in and do the easy part. The most effective hybrids can double fuel economy in vehicles. Plug-ins are different. They work by literally plugging into your home outlet. They cost about $1 a day, give or take, to recharge a completely drained battery. The technology debuting in 2010 will allow a midsize vehicle to drive 20-40 miles on battery power alone. When the batter is exhausted, the car's gas powered generator (not engine) kicks in and recharges the engine while you are driving. Some will also recharge the batteries with routine braking. If you have a 25 mile commute total, you could conceivably drive every day to work without using a drop of gas to do so.
Notes - Many technologies will emerge from now until 2010, but few will be mass market technologies, other than technologies like Prius' hybrid system. We will continue to see a transition from various manufacturers as they change their models into hybrids in the coming years. Few cars will not have a hybrid variation by 2015.
Edited to add....
Real life Plasma Arc Technology is used primarily in waste to energy incinerators. They can plug some electricity back into the grid, but are not a viable alternative to energy needs. Solar could eventually develop into a supplemental energy source allowing us to reduce our energy home heating and A/C bills by up to 100% in some instances and climates. Wave Energy is another developing technology, although it is 20-30 years from having a shot at the big time. The leading concept would have a flotation device that would be very large, heavy, and yet float on the waves. It would be connected to a piston under hydraulic pressure under the water. As the waves came through, they would drive the piston up and down merely by the force of the waves. This would allow the piston to steal some of the energy from the wave and transfer it to the grid using various methods. Calculations have shown that a 3 foot wave a half mile long has enough energy to power New York City for a year if you could capture all of its energy. If you haven't been to the ocean in awhile, one of those rolls in every couple seconds on a typical day.
Wind power is also becoming a very viable option, but a limited one. Windmills have to be huge to generate significant energy capacity and most people don't want a giant windmill anywhere near them. I don't understand that because I think they are pretty neat. If I could get some cheap land near a windmill with some water on it, I'd buy that in a second. Advances in wind technology have made them much more realistic as an energy source.
Hope that helped...
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Chadstroma
Footballguy
Uh.... nuclear powered cars?The Juggernaut said:
Horses Mouth
Footballguy
how's the algae thing coming along?
Chadstroma
Footballguy
So what stops companies from starting large algae farms and making bio-deisel?
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
We need both natural gas and electric cars.
Electric is the way to go for many people, but not all.
Natural gas is a nice option for everybody else. We have tons of it for now. Later it can be produced through biological methods and is therefore renewable and when done this way is carbon netrual.
Electric is the way to go for many people, but not all.
Natural gas is a nice option for everybody else. We have tons of it for now. Later it can be produced through biological methods and is therefore renewable and when done this way is carbon netrual.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
It still costs more than from oil, mostly because of the big upfront costs of getting it started.
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Chadstroma
Footballguy
How can it be produced through biological methods later?
Chadstroma
Footballguy
So.... if the start costs were lowered (say through scale or government subsidy etc) how would it compare cost wise to produce?
packertazman
Footballguy
Cannabis -
Documentary I watched, which was an old documentary, said they have an almost completely drug free plant that could be grown by farmers.
Would save trees (paper making), helps with soil errosion, and can be grown in higher volumes than corn per acre. Also doesn't need pesticides or much fertilizer. The fuel made from the seeds burns very clean.
Pertty interesting actually.
Edited to add a link to page with similar information: http://www.chanvre-info.ch/info/en/Cannabis-for-Fuel.html
Documentary I watched, which was an old documentary, said they have an almost completely drug free plant that could be grown by farmers.
Would save trees (paper making), helps with soil errosion, and can be grown in higher volumes than corn per acre. Also doesn't need pesticides or much fertilizer. The fuel made from the seeds burns very clean.
Pertty interesting actually.
Edited to add a link to page with similar information: http://www.chanvre-info.ch/info/en/Cannabis-for-Fuel.html
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St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
Well, #### that.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
So in this morning's Picayune (sorry no link) there is an article which is supposed to be somewhat nostalgic because it's a Sunday feature that reprints old articles from the paper's ~150 years of publishing.
This one recounts the story of a man named Bellone who was arrested during WW2 in January of 1945 for speeding. This was a big deal back then because everyone was on a gas ration and you could not speed and in fact you could hardly drive, as gas was so in demand that you had to receive a gas rationing card from the War Department (today's Dept. of Defense) (actually it was the OPA, the Office of Price Administration).
The penalty for Bellone's speeding was that he had to give up his rationing card.
In response he said he did not have one because he made his own fuel.
Question: does this kind of thing still work and why can't we do this today as a nation, come up with alternative cheap gasoline alternatives if it was being done in 1945?
This one recounts the story of a man named Bellone who was arrested during WW2 in January of 1945 for speeding. This was a big deal back then because everyone was on a gas ration and you could not speed and in fact you could hardly drive, as gas was so in demand that you had to receive a gas rationing card from the War Department (today's Dept. of Defense) (actually it was the OPA, the Office of Price Administration).
The penalty for Bellone's speeding was that he had to give up his rationing card.
In response he said he did not have one because he made his own fuel.
Bellone then proceeded to take the investigators on a 6 block test drive in which apparently the car operated just perfectly, and it must have because after all he had been arrested for speeding..
Question: does this kind of thing still work and why can't we do this today as a nation, come up with alternative cheap gasoline alternatives if it was being done in 1945?
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Nugget
Footballguy
The EPA won't let us. Emission standards are the hardest they have ever been and are only going to get more difficult.
cstu
Footballguy
We're very close to not only a cheap gasoline alternative but one that creates no pollution - hydrogen.
Look at growth in solar efficiency and the long-term price per watt.
Sunlight + water = hydrogen fuel.
It's only a matter of time before we have massive solar arrays in the desert using pumped in seawater to create hydrogen fuel.
Record efficiency for converting solar energy to hydrogen without rare metals
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If we were on gas rationing like in '45 we would be doing it. And it is entirely possible that guy at that time was spending twice as much on his concotion than what gas cost at the time, just he was actually able to aquire it. But thanks for sharing, I did find that interesting.
