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Amari Cooper Player Spotlight (3 Viewers)

It’s crazy to think that halfway thru the 2016 season, Cooper’s line was 52/787/2.  It’s been a swift and puzzling fall.  Few things...

1. Gruden is certainly King Hyperbole. But historically he’s also fed his WR1.  The depth chart behind Amari is Jordy/Martavis.  And who knows what the latters status is given recent reports.  If Cooper is healthy he won’t want for looks...an issue that inexplicably occurred quite a bit last year.

2. A return to form or at least a season justifying being a 4th overall selection gets him a new contract.  It’s not that he knows this because I think his approach is to give it what he’s got at all times.  But Carr just got paid, and he’ll want to position Cooper to get paid as well.

He’s got to fix the drop issue.  That was really the concerning part about his season.  Carr alluded to Cooper being more hurt than he was letting on all year.  But I like the kid and last year was the type of test that guys who go about their business the right way, learn from and use to become better.  

His ADP does seem like such a resurgence is to a large degree already baked into his value.  But he was considered a legitmlate 2nd/early 3rd round talent last year, and he could still return that this year.
Here is an intersting article about drop rates and Cooper:  https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/fantasy-football-metrics-that-matter-drop-rate

"Do drops matter for fantasy? I’d say not really. At the extreme, I’m sure they matter, but definitely not as much as other skillsets like route running, contested catch ability, or yards created after the catch."

&

"So while drops matter in that if Cooper had fixed these issues he would have scored more points, I don’t think drops are something that should factor into our rankings and projections. "

The gist is that drop rates are not great indicators of future performance and appear to be somewhat random.  However the most interesting thing I got from the article is that three of the six worst drop rates in the NFL from 2015-2017 all played for the Raiders (Cooper, Roberts, and Cook)... (and Crabtree also led the NFL in 2016 in drops according to https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2016/)

If drop rates are random that is a huge statistical anomaly.  On the other hand, maybe there is something to when WR say a QB throws a "very catchable" ball... or not.

Maybe Carr should talk to Brady and Rodgers and figure out whether to add or take some of the air out of the Raiders' footballs.  : )

 
48-680-7 season

11-210-2 KC game

37-470-5 rest (of season 13 games)

Pretty much a fourth of his stats for the entire season came in one game against KC.  Carr played all year.  Cooper missed two games I guess (week 13 and week 15).  There is just something missing from this guy and for where he is being drafted I will probably move to the next guy on my cheat sheet and not roll the dice on a bounce back. One of those guys I'll be glad somebody else drafts so I don't feel like I have too.  If I miss out....so be it.

 
48-680-7 season

11-210-2 KC game

37-470-5 rest (of season 13 games)

Pretty much a fourth of his stats for the entire season came in one game against KC.  Carr played all year.  Cooper missed two games I guess (week 13 and week 15).  There is just something missing from this guy and for where he is being drafted I will probably move to the next guy on my cheat sheet and not roll the dice on a bounce back. One of those guys I'll be glad somebody else drafts so I don't feel like I have too.  If I miss out....so be it.
Only the SP can turn the top WR performance of 2017 into a negative for a player. ?

 
48-680-7 season

11-210-2 KC game

37-470-5 rest (of season 13 games)

Pretty much a fourth of his stats for the entire season came in one game against KC.  Carr played all year.  Cooper missed two games I guess (week 13 and week 15).  There is just something missing from this guy and for where he is being drafted I will probably move to the next guy on my cheat sheet and not roll the dice on a bounce back. One of those guys I'll be glad somebody else drafts so I don't feel like I have too.  If I miss out....so be it.


Only the SP can turn the top WR performance of 2017 into a negative for a player. ?


lol...hope you enjoyed that week 7 victory...
I think Ref brings up a good point. 

Chad Johnson would finish the season as a top15-20 WR. Many people would draft him as a WR2 expecting great numbers, thinking they're set at WR. However, the problem was that he would go 5-55 for 13 games of the year, but 3 games of the year he would explode for 12-230-3. So he'd finish with some impressive stats that put him at WR2. 

I think we have to be careful of the "Chad Johnsons" out there in today's NFL. Cooper could be one of those. I think 2017 is an unfair year to judge him on personally and it's way too early in his career to label him one.  Last year Cooper did show signs of the dominant WR that some of us see as potential for him, but he also turned in several bench worthy performances. If that becomes a trend, Cooper could very well finish as a low end WR1/high end WR2 and be completely frustrating for owners. IMO I don't think that will become Cooper, but if it looks like that I will be selling as fast as I can for whatever I can. 

 
Dr. Dan said:
Well written. Awesome information. Way to dig back into the archives of Gruden's history! A lot of stuff I didn't know about Cooper, such as the names he is included with in his first 2 seasons. 
Thanks, Doc. Much appreciated 

 
I think Ref brings up a good point. 

Chad Johnson would finish the season as a top15-20 WR. Many people would draft him as a WR2 expecting great numbers, thinking they're set at WR. However, the problem was that he would go 5-55 for 13 games of the year, but 3 games of the year he would explode for 12-230-3. So he'd finish with some impressive stats that put him at WR2. 

I think we have to be careful of the "Chad Johnsons" out there in today's NFL. Cooper could be one of those. I think 2017 is an unfair year to judge him on personally and it's way too early in his career to label him one.  Last year Cooper did show signs of the dominant WR that some of us see as potential for him, but he also turned in several bench worthy performances. If that becomes a trend, Cooper could very well finish as a low end WR1/high end WR2 and be completely frustrating for owners. IMO I don't think that will become Cooper, but if it looks like that I will be selling as fast as I can for whatever I can. 
Sounds to me like FBG need to do a WR standard deviation article. 

 
Cooper is going to have a better year than he did in 2017.   The O was awful as a whole and he seemed really off.  
I think most are in agreement about this. The problem is some think that he's likely to surpass his stats from two years ago. They are arguing that this was a down year and hes still on track to be a potential stud wr1

 
I think most are in agreement about this. The problem is some think that he's likely to surpass his stats from two years ago. They are arguing that this was a down year and hes still on track to be a potential stud wr1
I don't think Cooper will be a top 5 stud but low end WR1 is definitely realistic. But if you had to bet, do you think in three years and at age 24 that Cooper has already achieved his peak statistical season? I'd bet not. 

 
I think we have to be careful of the "Chad Johnsons" out there in today's NFL. Cooper could be one of those. I think 2017 is an unfair year to judge him on personally and it's way too early in his career to label him one.  Last year Cooper did show signs of the dominant WR that some of us see as potential for him, but he also turned in several bench worthy performances. If that becomes a trend, Cooper could very well finish as a low end WR1/high end WR2 and be completely frustrating for owners. IMO I don't think that will become Cooper, but if it looks like that I will be selling as fast as I can for whatever I can. 
There have been studies posted here that show "boom/bust" types are just as valuable as "steady eddie" types. I don't believe Cooper will be a boom/bust type anyway so it doesn't matter here anyway.

 
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There have been studies posted here that show "boom/bust" types are just as valuable as "steady eddie" types. I don't believe Cooper will be a boom/bust type anyway so it doesn't matter here anyway.
Depends on the format.  If you're benching your best player between big games then that study won't help you.  So it's important to do a good job projecting.  

Personally I don't see cooper as a pure boom bust player under gruden, but we'll see. 

 
Depends on the format.  If you're benching your best player between big games then that study won't help you.  So it's important to do a good job projecting.  

Personally I don't see cooper as a pure boom bust player under gruden, but we'll see. 
I don't see him as a stud WR but he should be pretty steady in Grudens offense.   It seems obvious Gruden wants to run the ball so that will limit Cooper in yardage but should get him plenty of targets if the O stays on the field as Gruden wants.   I expect few chunk plays in a grind it out O.  

 
I don't see him as a stud WR but he should be pretty steady in Grudens offense.   It seems obvious Gruden wants to run the ball so that will limit Cooper in yardage but should get him plenty of targets if the O stays on the field as Gruden wants.   I expect few chunk plays in a grind it out O.  
I see Cooper as a low end WR1. Not necessarily a stud. I know I've mis-spoken calling him potentially elite. Not what I actually meant to say in hindsight. I think he has upside to maybe be in that conversation but we would need to see better and more consistent production. It'll be interesting to see if Gruden actually does feed him. I think his value is more in PPR if he can get a lot of targets as expected. TD opportunities should be there. 

 
I see Cooper as a low end WR1. Not necessarily a stud. I know I've mis-spoken calling him potentially elite. Not what I actually meant to say in hindsight. I think he has upside to maybe be in that conversation but we would need to see better and more consistent production. It'll be interesting to see if Gruden actually does feed him. I think his value is more in PPR if he can get a lot of targets as expected. TD opportunities should be there. 
Agreed.  He has good speed, quickness, size and runs great routes but his hands will prohibit him from ever being elite.  He should be very good though.  Cooper looked out of sorts last year and that Raider O and even Carr were not doing him any favors.  He should be a low-end WR 1 in PPR in 2018.   I am not going to let 2017 stop me from drafting him as a low end WR1 but would feel really comfortable if I snagged him as an early WR2.  I don't really think about drafts this early though since a lot can happen over the summer. 

 
lot of "low end WR1" talk in this thread which to me in a standard 12 team league means WR10-WR12.....FBG currently has him as WR15 in PPR...here are some guys after him

Diggs, DT, Tate, Cooks,Arob, Jeffrey, JuJu, Landry, Crabtree, Marvin, Gordon, Watkins, Sanders, Garcon, Davis....

assuming I would take the 14 ahead of him, which I would....I think a case could be made for several of these guys before Cooper....in fact I would probably pass on Cooper and maybe wait for his teammate later....Jordy at WR43....if Jordy and Bryant are both healthy/available, I think Cooper will struggle to be in top 20.....those 2 are better than Crabtree and the cast of characters that have been there before...IMO

 
lot of "low end WR1" talk in this thread which to me in a standard 12 team league means WR10-WR12.....FBG currently has him as WR15 in PPR...here are some guys after him

Diggs, DT, Tate, Cooks,Arob, Jeffrey, JuJu, Landry, Crabtree, Marvin, Gordon, Watkins, Sanders, Garcon, Davis....

assuming I would take the 14 ahead of him, which I would....I think a case could be made for several of these guys before Cooper....in fact I would probably pass on Cooper and maybe wait for his teammate later....Jordy at WR43....if Jordy and Bryant are both healthy/available, I think Cooper will struggle to be in top 20.....those 2 are better than Crabtree and the cast of characters that have been there before...IMO
When I see that list of guys after Cooper at WR 15, Cooper drops back 4-6 spots for me to about WR 20.   My initial guess at bottom end WR 1 is wrong.  This also tells me that WR looks pretty good for FF.   Probably need to draft two RBs relatively early since WR looks deep.  

 
Stinkin Ref said:
lot of "low end WR1" talk in this thread which to me in a standard 12 team league means WR10-WR12.....FBG currently has him as WR15 in PPR...here are some guys after him

Diggs, DT, Tate, Cooks,Arob, Jeffrey, JuJu, Landry, Crabtree, Marvin, Gordon, Watkins, Sanders, Garcon, Davis....

assuming I would take the 14 ahead of him, which I would....I think a case could be made for several of these guys before Cooper....in fact I would probably pass on Cooper and maybe wait for his teammate later....Jordy at WR43....if Jordy and Bryant are both healthy/available, I think Cooper will struggle to be in top 20.....those 2 are better than Crabtree and the cast of characters that have been there before...IMO
I was going to post something along these lines. I agree that I would not draft him expecting a WR1 performance, low or otherwise.

 
Phil Alexander said:
The Spotlight went live today. I appreciate the debate and all the contributions here. A couple of guys made it into the piece. Feel free to tee off.

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/article.php?article=2018-amari-cooper-is-safer-than-you-think
Some comments from a devil's advocate perspective.

He is one of only six wide receivers ever to accumulate at least 2,000 yards in his first two seasons, before turning 23-years-old. The others are Josh Gordon, Sammy Watkins, Mike Evans, Larry Fitzgerald, and DeAndre Hopkins.

Cooper is one of 10 receivers to ever post back-to-back 1,000-yard receiving seasons in each of his first two years, placing him in the same company as Randy Moss, A.J. Green, and Odell Beckham Jr., among others.

Cooper, Beckham, Marques Colston, and Michael Thomas are the only players to ever open their careers with both 70+ catches and 1,000+ yards in consecutive seasons.
To judge these comps, let's take a look at how these players fared in their 3rd seasons:

  • Hopkins - 111/1521/11 in 16 games
  • Moss - 77/1437/15 in 16 games
  • Green - 98/1426/11 in 16 games
  • Beckham - 101/1367/10 in 16 games
  • Evans - 96/1321/12 in 16 games
  • Fitz - 69/946/6 in 13 games
  • Colston - 47/760/5 in 11 games
  • Watkins - 28/430/2 in 8 games
  • Gordon - 24/303/0 in 5 games
  • Thomas - TBD
Cooper - 48/680/7 in 14 games

Gordon doesn't seem like a good comp since his issues were drug-related, so I will ignore him. That leaves just one reasonably close comp for their first 3 seasons - Watkins... another guy who grossly failed to meet expectations in year 3 and then followed up by failing to meet reduced expectations in year 4. Another guy who has struggled to play effectively through injuries.

How important is it that the first 2 seasons were comparable to a sample of impressive players, when the 3rd season is generally not comparable? :shrug:  

Carr’s quote sparked the narrative Cooper was dealing with a significant injury in 2017 and many have been quick to accept it because why else couldn’t he get open or hold onto the football?
As previously discussed in this thread, most seem to want to view this as a positive, assuming he will be healthy going forward and his performance will rebound as a result. That isn't a given, though. The negative way to look at this is that he has suffered injuries (including back, shoulder, knee, head, and ankle injuries) for the past 1.5 seasons and played poorly while playing through them.

I posted previously about his splits in 2016 and 2017, but I have since read that he also faded down the stretch in 2015, so I took a look:

  • 2015 (games 1-8): 45/653/4 on 72 targets
  • 2015 (games 9-16): 27/417/2 on 58 targets
  • 2016 (games 1-8): 52/787/2 on 80 targets
  • 2016 (games 9-16): 30/363/3 on 50 targets
  • 2017 (games 1-8): 34/404/3 on 66 targets
  • 2017 (games 9-16): 14/276/4 on 28 targets (in 6 games)
I don't know what led to his dropoff in 2015. Was he playing through injuries then, too?  :ph34r:

In his 3 seasons, he has 11 games with 100+ receiving yards. Only 3 of those games came during the second half of the season. He has averaged just 48 receiving yards per game during the second half of his seasons, compared to 77 rypg in the first half of those seasons.

When do these things become trends?

More importantly, at his ADP, do you want to draft a guy who has consistently faded down the stretch?

TARGET HOG... In 11 years as a head coach, Gruden’s top wide receiver eclipsed 130 targets nine times... This year, we should expect Cooper’s market share to increase to at least 25%.
Yes, but how did the #2 and #3 targets compare in those other seasons?

  • 1998 - #1 Tim Brown, #2 James Jett, #3 Terry Mickens
  • 1999 - #1 Tim Brown, #2 James Jett, #3 Terry Mickens
  • 2000 - #1 Tim Brown, #2 Andre Rison (33 years old), #3 James Jett
  • 2001 - #1a Tim Brown, #1b Jerry Rice, #3 Jerry Porter
  • 2002 - #1 Keyshawn Johnson, #2 Keenan McCardell, #3 Joe Jurevicius
  • 2003 - #1 Keenan McCardell, #2 Keyshawn Johnson (10 games), #3 Charles Lee
  • 2004 - #1 Michael Clayton, #2 Joey Galloway, #3 Joe Jurevicius
  • 2005 - #1 Joey Galloway, #2 Michael Clayton, #3 Ike Hilliard
  • 2006 - #1 Joey Galloway, #2 Michael Clayton, #3 Ike Hilliard
  • 2007 - #1 Joey Galloway, #2 Ike Hilliard, #3 Michael Clayton
  • 2008 - #1 Antonio Bryant, #2 Michael Clayton, #3 Ike Hilliard
If healthy and not suspended, IMO Jordy is better than most of those #2 WRs and Bryant is better than all of those #3 WRs. I didn't bother listing the #4 WRs (and sometimes there weren't any worth listing), but WR Switzer has potential to be better than any #4 WR Gruden has had.

I know some people will laugh about Switzer, but Gruden said yesterday that he has "been a force as a slot receiver. He's really done well." Maybe it is coachspeak, we'll see. I watched him play a good amount in college and expected him to be a solid NFL slot WR. He was behind another good one in Dallas last season as a rookie, then Gruden traded for him.

Crabtree left and took 101 targets with him. Patterson took another 42. If healthy and not suspended, IMO it seems extremely likely that Jordy, Bryant, and Switzer will combine for 143 targets. It is easy to project... for example: 80 for Jordy, 50 for Bryant, 13 for Switzer.

It is also worth noting that Gruden's offenses threw more often to the RBs than the Raiders have in Cooper's career. Throwing out the high and low seasons, mainly to ditch the high outlier (204 targets in 2003), his offenses have averaged targeting their RBs 147 times. Last year's Raiders targeted RBs 119 times.

Anyway, IMO it is easy to see reasons that Cooper will not be a target hog. Of course, the biggest factor will be whether he stays healthy and performs well. If he starts slow or picks up an injury...

I will take the under on 25% of team targets for Cooper, partly due to competition for targets and partly due to his propensity to get hurt and see his play drop off.

:football:  

 
Phil Alexander said:
The Spotlight went live today. I appreciate the debate and all the contributions here. A couple of guys made it into the piece. Feel free to tee off.

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/article.php?article=2018-amari-cooper-is-safer-than-you-think
In general, I just want to say that I think it's really cool to see the FBG staff (Joe included) actually participating and being involved in the forums--and specifically the shark pool.  I'm not trying to brown nose--but I personally feel that the topics, the discussion, and the overall eco-system of how posters are reacting and posting thoughts is much healthier now than it was just a few weeks ago.  There are really great points being made on both sides of arguments--and they seem to be being made in a very civil and discussion inviting manner.  I hope that the FBG staff continues to be actively involved in these forums.   

 
There’s a very specific historical comp to cooper, which is Andre Johnson.  Johnson was a top five pick, had historically good first two years, then just had an absolutely awful third year for no obvious reason.  He even had Derek Carr’s brother as his qb.  Going into season 3 the Texans fired their defensive minded coach (Capers) for an offensive guy (Kubiak) and Johnson then took off.   not saying they are exactly the same player, but there’s a lot alike in their stories. 

 
There’s a very specific historical comp to cooper, which is Andre Johnson.  Johnson was a top five pick, had historically good first two years, then just had an absolutely awful third year for no obvious reason.  He even had Derek Carr’s brother as his qb.  Going into season 3 the Texans fired their defensive minded coach (Capers) for an offensive guy (Kubiak) and Johnson then took off.   not saying they are exactly the same player, but there’s a lot alike in their stories. 
Careful making comparisons to other WRs. someone may find some obscure stat or fact and say how ridiculous of a comparison it is. such as, "Andre Johnson was 6'3, Cooper is 6'1, their stories are not all all alike" :rolleyes:

I agree. there can be success following a 3rd year downside and head coach change. it's been done before. I hope Cooper can pull through and prove he has what it takes. he's certainly got the right situation 

 
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Some comments from a devil's advocate perspective.

To judge these comps, let's take a look at how these players fared in their 3rd seasons:

  • Hopkins - 111/1521/11 in 16 games
  • Moss - 77/1437/15 in 16 games
  • Green - 98/1426/11 in 16 games
  • Beckham - 101/1367/10 in 16 games
  • Evans - 96/1321/12 in 16 games
  • Fitz - 69/946/6 in 13 games
  • Colston - 47/760/5 in 11 games
  • Watkins - 28/430/2 in 8 games
  • Gordon - 24/303/0 in 5 games
  • Thomas - TBD
Cooper - 48/680/7 in 14 games

Gordon doesn't seem like a good comp since his issues were drug-related, so I will ignore him. That leaves just one reasonably close comp for their first 3 seasons - Watkins... another guy who grossly failed to meet expectations in year 3 and then followed up by failing to meet reduced expectations in year 4. Another guy who has struggled to play effectively through injuries.

How important is it that the first 2 seasons were comparable to a sample of impressive players, when the 3rd season is generally not comparable? :shrug:  

As previously discussed in this thread, most seem to want to view this as a positive, assuming he will be healthy going forward and his performance will rebound as a result. That isn't a given, though. The negative way to look at this is that he has suffered injuries (including back, shoulder, knee, head, and ankle injuries) for the past 1.5 seasons and played poorly while playing through them.

I posted previously about his splits in 2016 and 2017, but I have since read that he also faded down the stretch in 2015, so I took a look:

  • 2015 (games 1-8): 45/653/4 on 72 targets
  • 2015 (games 9-16): 27/417/2 on 58 targets
  • 2016 (games 1-8): 52/787/2 on 80 targets
  • 2016 (games 9-16): 30/363/3 on 50 targets
  • 2017 (games 1-8): 34/404/3 on 66 targets
  • 2017 (games 9-16): 14/276/4 on 28 targets (in 6 games)
I don't know what led to his dropoff in 2015. Was he playing through injuries then, too?  :ph34r:

In his 3 seasons, he has 11 games with 100+ receiving yards. Only 3 of those games came during the second half of the season. He has averaged just 48 receiving yards per game during the second half of his seasons, compared to 77 rypg in the first half of those seasons.

When do these things become trends?

More importantly, at his ADP, do you want to draft a guy who has consistently faded down the stretch?

Yes, but how did the #2 and #3 targets compare in those other seasons?

  • 1998 - #1 Tim Brown, #2 James Jett, #3 Terry Mickens
  • 1999 - #1 Tim Brown, #2 James Jett, #3 Terry Mickens
  • 2000 - #1 Tim Brown, #2 Andre Rison (33 years old), #3 James Jett
  • 2001 - #1a Tim Brown, #1b Jerry Rice, #3 Jerry Porter
  • 2002 - #1 Keyshawn Johnson, #2 Keenan McCardell, #3 Joe Jurevicius
  • 2003 - #1 Keenan McCardell, #2 Keyshawn Johnson (10 games), #3 Charles Lee
  • 2004 - #1 Michael Clayton, #2 Joey Galloway, #3 Joe Jurevicius
  • 2005 - #1 Joey Galloway, #2 Michael Clayton, #3 Ike Hilliard
  • 2006 - #1 Joey Galloway, #2 Michael Clayton, #3 Ike Hilliard
  • 2007 - #1 Joey Galloway, #2 Ike Hilliard, #3 Michael Clayton
  • 2008 - #1 Antonio Bryant, #2 Michael Clayton, #3 Ike Hilliard
If healthy and not suspended, IMO Jordy is better than most of those #2 WRs and Bryant is better than all of those #3 WRs. I didn't bother listing the #4 WRs (and sometimes there weren't any worth listing), but WR Switzer has potential to be better than any #4 WR Gruden has had.

I know some people will laugh about Switzer, but Gruden said yesterday that he has "been a force as a slot receiver. He's really done well." Maybe it is coachspeak, we'll see. I watched him play a good amount in college and expected him to be a solid NFL slot WR. He was behind another good one in Dallas last season as a rookie, then Gruden traded for him.

Crabtree left and took 101 targets with him. Patterson took another 42. If healthy and not suspended, IMO it seems extremely likely that Jordy, Bryant, and Switzer will combine for 143 targets. It is easy to project... for example: 80 for Jordy, 50 for Bryant, 13 for Switzer.

It is also worth noting that Gruden's offenses threw more often to the RBs than the Raiders have in Cooper's career. Throwing out the high and low seasons, mainly to ditch the high outlier (204 targets in 2003), his offenses have averaged targeting their RBs 147 times. Last year's Raiders targeted RBs 119 times.

Anyway, IMO it is easy to see reasons that Cooper will not be a target hog. Of course, the biggest factor will be whether he stays healthy and performs well. If he starts slow or picks up an injury...

I will take the under on 25% of team targets for Cooper, partly due to competition for targets and partly due to his propensity to get hurt and see his play drop off.

:football:  
Sorry for the lengthy re-quote, but this includes great information and a second half trend repeated every year of his career that would scare the heck out of me if I weren't staying away already. Nice work JWB!

 
@Just Win Baby Excellent post by you. The dichotomy between the evidence we presented makes for great debate and is exactly why Cooper is so divisive this year. I don't think I'm giving Nelson as much credit as you are after watching him play last year, even with Rodgers. And I don't know the whole pie doesn't grow from last year in terms of total pass attempts when you look at how steeply the entire offense dropped off from 2016 with a healthy Carr. But otherwise, if I were going to worry about Cooper, you gave the reasons why.

 
Protocols of Stringer Bell said:
There’s a very specific historical comp to cooper, which is Andre Johnson.  Johnson was a top five pick, had historically good first two years, then just had an absolutely awful third year for no obvious reason.  He even had Derek Carr’s brother as his qb.  Going into season 3 the Texans fired their defensive minded coach (Capers) for an offensive guy (Kubiak) and Johnson then took off.   not saying they are exactly the same player, but there’s a lot alike in their stories. 
David Carr was historically awful that year, 16 game starter and threw for less than 2,500 yards. Over 60+ sacks, most of which were Carr's fault because he would be flushed out of the pocket and run out of bounds behind the LoS in order to avoid taking another hit. The Texans went 2-14 and were terrible in every facet of the game. AJ also was injured early in week 4 getting only 1 target before going out and missed the following 3 games to boot.

 
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In general, I just want to say that I think it's really cool to see the FBG staff (Joe included) actually participating and being involved in the forums--and specifically the shark pool.  I'm not trying to brown nose--but I personally feel that the topics, the discussion, and the overall eco-system of how posters are reacting and posting thoughts is much healthier now than it was just a few weeks ago.  There are really great points being made on both sides of arguments--and they seem to be being made in a very civil and discussion inviting manner.  I hope that the FBG staff continues to be actively involved in these forums.   
Awesome. Thanks for the good words and I'm glad it's something that seems to be working. You guys rock. 

 
I am having a hard time finding too many other WRs who will likely get the kind of target volume that Cooper is likely to see this year. I expect him back up to at least the 130 range we saw in his first two season and he has a strong shot at hitting 150. 

 
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I am having a hard time finding too many other WRs who will likely get the kind of target volume that Cooper is likely to see this year. I expect him back up to at least the 130 range we saw in his first two season and he has a strong shot at hitting 150. 
So 60 catches for 900 yds and 5-6 TDs?

 
So 60 catches for 900 yds and 5-6 TDs?
lol, yeah I have never been too bullish on Cooper either so I get that stance. However, if we take the cherry bomb in the toilet that was 2017, Cooper's 16 game pace through his first 2 seasons was 78/1100/6. So while that is not super impressive, it would have put him right on the fringe of WR1 status for last season. Given how likely it seems that he gets a large target volume, it means he is being drafted right here he should be. He is limited risk and limited upside player at this point. 

 
I am having a hard time finding too many other WRs who will likely get the kind of target volume that Cooper is likely to see this year. I expect him back up to at least the 130 range we saw in his first two season and he has a strong shot at hitting 150. 
How about laying out a projected number of passing attempts and target distribution? Barring injuries to other targets, I see zero chance for 150 targets, and 130 seems like a stretch. And injuries to Carr and/or Cooper seem just as likely, if not more so, than injuries to Cooper's competition for targets.

 
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He is limited risk and limited upside
How can you say he is limited risk based on the last 1.5 seasons? He may not be high risk, but he is absolutely not low risk. If you are saying you seem him with limited upside, that combination is not enticing.

 
How about laying out a projected number of passing attempts and target distribution? Barring injuries, I see zero chance for 150 targets, and 130 seems like a stretch.
Why do you see such a little chance? Cooper's first two seasons he was targeted 131 and 130 times. Crabtree was in the 140s both those years. Last year the Raiders completed 189 passes to WRs (13th in NFL), the year before it was 225 (7th). The most targeted WR in Oakland the last 3 years is gone and he was replaced by an aging Jordy Nelson who might not have much left and Martavis Bryant who has never been a target hog-more of a big play guy- and he has the potential suspension hanging over him. 

 
lol, yeah I have never been too bullish on Cooper either so I get that stance. However, if we take the cherry bomb in the toilet that was 2017, Cooper's 16 game pace through his first 2 seasons was 78/1100/6. So while that is not super impressive, it would have put him right on the fringe of WR1 status for last season. Given how likely it seems that he gets a large target volume, it means he is being drafted right here he should be. He is limited risk and limited upside player at this point. 
I'm the guy that gave up on him and traded him and scraps for Cooks so I'm a bit biased. I hesitated doing it because they are very close IMO but that last season was brutal. Also have Carr at QB who I overpaid for when my QBs went down early last year and he disappointed as well so mitigation of risk a bit. (Probably my WR4 anyways behind AB, Thielen, and Tyreek).

 
How can you say he is limited risk based on the last 1.5 seasons? He may not be high risk, but he is absolutely not low risk. If you are saying you seem him with limited upside, that combination is not enticing.
I think the target volume is really safe given who else is playing WR on the team. 

 
I'm the guy that gave up on him and traded him and scraps for Cooks so I'm a bit biased. I hesitated doing it because they are very close IMO but that last season was brutal. Also have Carr at QB who I overpaid for when my QBs went down early last year and he disappointed as well so mitigation of risk a bit. (Probably my WR4 anyways behind AB, Thielen, and Tyreek).
Carr was really bad last year- but the 2 years before he was pretty good: 3900/28 and 3900/32. 

 
How can you say he is limited risk based on the last 1.5 seasons? He may not be high risk, but he is absolutely not low risk. If you are saying you seem him with limited upside, that combination is not enticing.
Just being a dirty troll here, but the highlighted reads like the *exact* definition of limited risk. 

Yes he has some risk, maybe we call it moderate. Maybe we call it limited. Someone could attempt to quantify it and remove language semantics, but I don't think anyone is suggesting he has *no* risk. 

Does anyone think either Martavis or Jordy are going to be target hogs? If healthy (I know, I know), doesn't Cooper have to be the leading target? I think it's a much bigger stretch to say Cooper *won't* hit 130 targets than he will. 

 
Just being a dirty troll here, but the highlighted reads like the *exact* definition of limited risk. 

Yes he has some risk, maybe we call it moderate. Maybe we call it limited. Someone could attempt to quantify it and remove language semantics, but I don't think anyone is suggesting he has *no* risk. 

Does anyone think either Martavis or Jordy are going to be target hogs? If healthy (I know, I know), doesn't Cooper have to be the leading target? I think it's a much bigger stretch to say Cooper *won't* hit 130 targets than he will. 
Right, I am not saying he will get Hopkins or AB level targets but there aren't many WRs in the NFL with an easier path to top10-15 WR level targets. I don't think he is an OBJ level talent but in standard he has averaged 8.9, 9.1 7.9 so he seems to have a pretty limited window. If he hits on the high end of it, he is a solid WR2. If he hits on the bottom, he is a WR3 with huge weekly boom potential. When you look at who he is being drafted around: Cooks, AR15, Juju, Alshon and Demaryius all have a fair share of questions. 

 
Why do you see such a little chance? Cooper's first two seasons he was targeted 131 and 130 times. Crabtree was in the 140s both those years. Last year the Raiders completed 189 passes to WRs (13th in NFL), the year before it was 225 (7th). The most targeted WR in Oakland the last 3 years is gone and he was replaced by an aging Jordy Nelson who might not have much left and Martavis Bryant who has never been a target hog-more of a big play guy- and he has the potential suspension hanging over him. 
I agree. It seems highly likely that he will get at least 130 and more likely 140-150 targets.  I don't see a lot of competition for targets on the team. Biggest obstacle would be if the team is able to run so effectively they don't need to pass much, but I find it more likely that they will be playing from behind and will pass a lot.

 
2017   

2015 wide receiver adp

2016

That third to fifth round range for receivers has some serious risk every year.  Terrelle Pryor and Kelvin Benjamin last year. Jeremy Maclin and Donte Moncrief and Randall Cobb in 2016. Davante Adams and Andre Johnson and Nelson Agholar in 2015. I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting.  But these guys weren't just bad, they were big name team sinking busts that weighed you down for a month.  

Is cooper one of those guys? Maybe.  Only thing I can say for sure is he's not that much riskier than the other guys in those rounds.  Josh Gordon post used car sales is safer than Cooper? Or thielen with a new qb? Or Tyreek Hill with Watkins and a new qb?  All those guys have risk. 

 
I think the target volume is really safe given who else is playing WR on the team. 


Just being a dirty troll here, but the highlighted reads like the *exact* definition of limited risk. 

Yes he has some risk, maybe we call it moderate. Maybe we call it limited. Someone could attempt to quantify it and remove language semantics, but I don't think anyone is suggesting he has *no* risk. 

Does anyone think either Martavis or Jordy are going to be target hogs? If healthy (I know, I know), doesn't Cooper have to be the leading target? I think it's a much bigger stretch to say Cooper *won't* hit 130 targets than he will. 


Facts:

  • Over the past 1.5 seasons, Cooper had 148 targets in 22 games, which scales to 108 targets per 16 games. Obviously, that is his most recent 1.5 seasons -- the most recent half of his career to date -- during which he did not come close to 130 target pace, much less 150.
  • Over the past 1.5 seasons, the primary excuse for Cooper's poor performance is that he has suffered back, knee, shoulder, head, and ankle injuries. Obviously, that is his most recent 1.5 seasons -- the most recent half of his career to date.  :topcat:
  • Meanwhile, although the Raiders allowed WRs Crabtree and Patterson to go elsewhere, they traded for 2 WRs (Bryant and Switzer) and signed 1 notable veteran free agent WR (Jordy).

    Regarding Crabtree, the Ravens signed him to a 3 year deal for $21M, with $13M guaranteed. The Raiders signed Jordy to a 2 year deal for $14.2M, with $13M guaranteed. Virtually the same contract.

IMO to say Cooper is "low risk" based on expected high target volume despite all of these facts is mischaracterizing the situation. Sure, he could get 130 targets. He has done it twice. What I objected to was the characterization of risk.

To double down on that and say he is more likely to reach 130 targets than not seems even worse IMO, given his propensity for injury and inability to play effectively through it.

I'm fine being in the minority on this. :shrug:  

 
David Carr was historically awful that year, 16 game starter and threw for less than 2,500 yards. Over 60+ sacks, most of which were Carr's fault because he would be flushed out of the pocket and run out of bounds behind the LoS in order to avoid taking another hit. The Texans went 2-14 and were terrible in every facet of the game. AJ also was injured early in week 4 getting only 1 target before going out and missed the following 3 games to boot.
I didn’t remember the AJ injury- good memory.  I do remember that being the year that Carr finally cratered after previously showing at least a few flashes. Derek should be much better than David 

 
for those big Cooper fans, Fantasyindex Magazine is all over him, they l-o-v-e Amari Cooper as a WR1 this season. Gruden force-feeding his #1 WR, etc..

 
Just being a dirty troll here, but the highlighted reads like the *exact* definition of limited risk. 

Yes he has some risk, maybe we call it moderate. Maybe we call it limited. Someone could attempt to quantify it and remove language semantics, but I don't think anyone is suggesting he has *no* risk. 

Does anyone think either Martavis or Jordy are going to be target hogs? If healthy (I know, I know), doesn't Cooper have to be the leading target? I think it's a much bigger stretch to say Cooper *won't* hit 130 targets than he will. 
If we're playing the "if healthy" game then Nelson is just as much a candidate for top targets.  And he doesn't fail to catch the ball nearly as much as Cooper.  Carr's been a team guy and had Cooper's back so far (can you imagine Rodgers or Brady playing with him?) but he's gotta be getting sick of putting the ball in a spot and watching Amari toe-tap the chalk a foot out of bounds.  At some point Carr is going to lose trust and look elsewhere.  He's probably a lock for 100 targets because of his age/investment/potential but I could easily see him moving to 2nd or 2nd1/2 fiddle status if he keeps losing the ball in the lights.

 
As someone who tried to buy low, only for him to drop lower, I'm not ecstatic about his future prospects. It seems like injuries have held him back, but they keep that tightly under wraps so it's hard to be sure. (Carr said he fought through lots of injuries last season)

Cooper has the upside to become a top 5 WR in the league, but has the downside to be a WR4. I think he splits the difference and starts to average WR2 for a couple years. That's still a solid WR, but I'd take him a little later than he's currently being drafted. I don't think that Gruden is some miracle cure that makes Cooper bounce back like Gurley with McVay.

 
Cooper had 10 drops his rookie season.  He's had 8 on 227 targets since, 3 in 2016 and 5 last year. Crabtree in that same two year time period has 14 drops on 246 targets, led the league with 9 in 2016 and like Cooper had 5 last year. But hey, let's all keep the false narrative going that Cooper was the guy on the Raiders the last two years who had an issue with drops.
 

 
Cooper had 10 drops his rookie season.  He's had 8 on 227 targets since, 3 in 2016 and 5 last year. Crabtree in that same two year time period has 14 drops on 246 targets, led the league with 9 in 2016 and like Cooper had 5 last year. But hey, let's all keep the false narrative going that Cooper was the guy on the Raiders the last two years who had an issue with drops.
 
No no no you have it wrong. I saw Cooper make a couple drops in a national game. He can't catch. NO ONE DENIES THIS!

 
for those big Cooper fans, Fantasyindex Magazine is all over him, they l-o-v-e Amari Cooper as a WR1 this season. Gruden force-feeding his #1 WR, etc..
Is this something Gruden is even known for? If it has happened, was it lack of other options?

Like others, I'm skeptical relying on Cooper as a WR1 this year given past history and the availability of quality options like Jordy Nelson and (if he isn't suspended) Martavius Bryant. I see the ball being spread around fairly the same way as it has in the past, with overall WR targets down YoY as the team commits more strongly to the run than they did the last 2 years.

I adore Cooper and hope he breaks out -- this year or eventually -- as he is a super solid person and has fantastic athleticism. But I'm not banking my FF season on him as a WR1. This may indeed be the year, but it's too risky for my blood.

 

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