Antonio Gates (1 Viewer)

[SSOG]

Nice posts about Marty now that I've read the whole thing. Good discussions there. I'll temper my own responses towards marty, but he's gotta uncork that offense a little more. We had some bad field position yesterday, but there were still missed opportunities.

Absolutely. Marty has his flaws, which are pretty clear after 21 years of coaching. He does tend to turtle up from time to time (although he's a lot more aggressive than he used to be), and his vanilla gameplans often cost him in the playoffs... but at the same time, people take his ability to get teams to play above their heads for granted. He's not always been on the most talented teams (especially since he takes on so many reclamation projects), but he always gets those teams to play well above their ability during the regular season, so much so that people start mistaking these teams for juggernauts and then getting disappointed when they lose in the playoffs. Most coaches wouldn't even have gotten those teams to the playoffs in the first place.Another point worth making: If not for The Drive and The Fumble, Schotty would probably have two SB appearances on his resume. It's a lot harder to criticise a coach for his playoff successes when he's made the SB twice.

 

[Marek]

absolutely nothing....just be sure to replace "learn your football people" with "learn how to copy and paste out of wikipedia people".

ouch

 

[Tau837]

A great coach does not stick around for 20+ years or whatever Shotty has been involved in the game if he was not one of the best at the time. Any notion that he is not worthy of coaching a team has not seen the stats his players are able to put up and the "W's" they put up with it. Shotty is clearly in the top 10 coaches in the league currently.

Really? Which of the coaches I listed below would you choose Marty over to coach your NFL team?

I challenge you to name me 10 coaches who are better than Schottenheimer. Go on, try.

It obviously depends on what you mean by "better". I'll choose to look at it like I'm drafting a coach to coach my team for three years, because that eliminates any age factor. In no particular order, I'd prefer: Cowher, Shanahan, Belicheck, Parcells, Holmgren, Reid, Fox, Gibbs, Dungy, Del Rio, Lewis, Gruden, and Fisher, at minimum, and maybe Billick and Saban, too. And I'm not sure that's all, without looking at it more closely.

 

[SSOG]

A great coach does not stick around for 20+ years or whatever Shotty has been involved in the game if he was not one of the best at the time. Any notion that he is not worthy of coaching a team has not seen the stats his players are able to put up and the "W's" they put up with it. Shotty is clearly in the top 10 coaches in the league currently.

Really? Which of the coaches I listed below would you choose Marty over to coach your NFL team?

I challenge you to name me 10 coaches who are better than Schottenheimer. Go on, try.

It obviously depends on what you mean by "better". I'll choose to look at it like I'm drafting a coach to coach my team for three years, because that eliminates any age factor. In no particular order, I'd prefer: Cowher, Shanahan, Belicheck, Parcells, Holmgren, Reid, Fox, Gibbs, Dungy, Del Rio, Lewis, Gruden, and Fisher, at minimum, and maybe Billick and Saban, too. And I'm not sure that's all, without looking at it more closely.

An interesting question, and one that I'd love to discuss with you, but rather than continue to hijack this thread, I've created a spinoff. Check there for all of my answers and all of the reasoning behind them! Anyway, back to Antonio Gates.

 

[H.K.]

Gates by the numbers

2005 Per Game Averages

Targets 9.3

Catches 5.9

Yards 73

TD .67

2006 Per Game Averages

Targets 6

Catches 3.33

Yards 40.6

TD .33

OK, so with Rivers at QB, we've seen the following:

1) Decline in targets by 33%

2) Decline in recepts per target

2) Decline in TD production

Conclusion: Rivers does not throw to Gates as much as Brees did, and when he does he is not as accurate or in the red zone.

 

[nygiants56]

marty schottenheimer is possibly the worst coach i have ever seen. i'd be worried about tomlinson too if i were you guys. he'll grind out good yardage, but until schottenheimer learns to coach and opens up the offense, LT's big games are gone.

Wow, you must not have seen very many coaches if the worst one you've ever seen is a three-time Coach of the Year with a career 58% winning percentage, almost 200 wins, and 2 losing seasons.Fun little did you know... Schotty has fewer losing seasons in 21 years (2) than Shanny has in 14 (3), Bellichick has in 12 (5), or Cowher has in 14 (3). All of this comes despite the fact that Schotty has taken on FOUR different reclamation projects. Schottenheimer didn't post his first sub-.500 record until his 15th year as a head coach.

More fun facts... did you know that Marty Schottenheimer has an entire coaching tree? Cowher, Cunningham, Dungy, and Herm Edwards are all Schottenheimer disciples. Those are some seriously good coaches, too. Cowher and Dungy have two of the highest winning percentages in NFL history. They're also guys who get criticized as unable to get it done in the playoffs... although, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think we'll be hearing much of that anymore.

Learn your football, people. Keep some perspective. Schotty's one of the top-10 coaches in the league.

Wouldn't Shottenheimers son, Brian Shottenheimer, be considered a Shottenheimer disciple, too? all joking aside, Marty Shots is a solid coach, he'll get you to 10-6 with blinders on..he is as good a regular season coach as you'll find, but, aside from from Cowher winning a SB last year ( Cowher has plenty of chokes in post season), most Shottenheimer deisciples are big time chokers in playoff games, including Marty...Herm Edwards?! c'mon..Dungy?! if I'm not mistaken, Dungy has one of the worst post season records in NFL history..Shottenheimer loves to play prevent offense in a big game, and he's taught that to everyone who's coached under him, apparently. didn't Herm Edwards come from the #### Vermeil school of RA-RA coaches who like to cry?

you can keep these Shottenheimer wannabes..

I'll take Bellichick , Parcells, Walsh, Don Coryell disciples for $500, Alex..

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Gates by the numbers

2005 Per Game Averages

Targets 9.3

Catches 5.9

Yards 73

TD .67

2006 Per Game Averages

Targets 6

Catches 3.33

Yards 40.6

TD .33

OK, so with Rivers at QB, we've seen the following:

1) Decline in targets by 33%

2) Decline in recepts per target

2) Decline in TD production

Conclusion: Rivers does not throw to Gates as much as Brees did, and when he does he is not as accurate or in the red zone.

Rivers doesn't throw as much as Brees, period. But that will change as the season goes on. Teams already know LT is the one they have to stop and if the Chargers keep throwing 10-15 times a game there'll be 10 guys in the box.Gates is seeing a large % of all pass plays come his way and should benefit as Rivers gets more chances to throw.

 

[SSOG]

Gates by the numbers

2005 Per Game Averages

Targets 9.3

Catches 5.9

Yards 73

TD .67

2006 Per Game Averages

Targets 6

Catches 3.33

Yards 40.6

TD .33

OK, so with Rivers at QB, we've seen the following:

1) Decline in targets by 33%

2) Decline in recepts per target

2) Decline in TD production

Conclusion: Rivers does not throw to Gates as much as Brees did, and when he does he is not as accurate or in the red zone.

After 4 weeks last season (3 games), Antonio Gates had 22 targets, 1 of which came in the red zone.After 4 weeks this season (3 games), Antonio Gates has 18 targets, 4 of which came in the red zone.

Again, as a Gates owner, I'm not worried. It's early in the season, and everyone is still very tightly bunched. With one more TD, Gates would be the #3 TE in the NFL in ppg, just fractions of a point behind Winslow... and with the increased red-zone looks, that one more TD is more or less inevitable.

This type of sensationalistic thinking could have been applied to Santana Moss before last week, too. His targets in the first three weeks had declined from 28 in 2005 to 16 in 2006. His YPR at that point last year was 22.6, and this year was only 14.5. He was already 2 TDs behind where he was last year. And then Santana Moss went out and had a game like he had last week. Why? Because Santana Moss is a stud, and sooner or later studs always get theirs.

 

[mbuehner]

As the years go by, i've grown increasingly anti taking a TE early. The problem isnt talent, its that through no fault of their own, TEs can find their FPs stripped in a hurry for any number of reasons. RBs & QBs are going to have opportunities- you have to run and throw the ball. WRs are a little more subject to the fate of the entire offense, but there is a kind of a negative feedback loop because if a team is bad they have to throw the ball more.

But TEs can lose touches just because they are kept in to block if the offense is giving up sacks (McMichael) or could be schemed against by jamming him at the line all day and then picking him up with a DB down the field because they dont fear the teams WRs (Gonzo). Or maybe the team goes with the fad and uses double TE sets.

Every position is subject to this kind of variability to some degree, but I think TEs suffer the worst because they are called up to do so many things.

 

[Bobcat10]

I'm trying not to get worried, but it is the pick I regret most right now (3.10). He just has not paid off and it could have drastically changed my draft (for the good since my team is underachieving overall).

The good thing is, after this week against Pitt, the Chargers seem to not face many top rated defenses and some teams that can put up points. Let's just hope we do not see any more Marty ball like week 1, although Gates had a TD in the game.

All that said, I will not be taking a TE at this point in the draft again. I benefited greatly one year with Gonzo, and have not done it again till this year. I felt obligated to make the pick at 3.10, I remember telling that to the guy sitting next to me. I didn't think he'd be there and I sorta didn't want to take him, but I did.

 

[H.K.]

Regardless of situation last year, Gates got his numbers. Every week there is a different excuse/reason for Gates' lousy numbers. At some point people will accept the truth. Rivers is killing Gates, no other factors matter.

 

[zamboni]

Regardless of situation last year, Gates got his numbers. Every week there is a different excuse/reason for Gates' lousy numbers. At some point people will accept the truth. Rivers is killing Gates, no other factors matter.

Someone else said it best, either here or in another thread. Much of Gates' production is now being redirected to Marques Colston.

 

[RKMoney]

NEVER draft a TE early. Gonzo last year and Gates this year as PRIME examples.

First off, I'm calling a big fat here. First off, the season isn't over, so it's a little bit premature to be giving up on Gates. At this point last year, Marvin Harrison was the #35 ranked WR in the entire NFL. Second off, Tony Gonzalez actually performed up to his draft position last year. He finished the season ranked 44th in VBD, which is equal to a 4th round pick in terms of production. He was typically selected with a fourth round pick. And the other TE that was typically going in the fourth, Gates, wound up finishing EIGHTH in season-ending VBD, despite the fact that he was suspended for the first week!What's more, Tony Gonzalez outperformed his draft position for six consecutive years prior to last year. Name me one other player in the history of fantasy football that can make a similar claim. In addition, if you read Drinen's "optimal draft" study, you would know that historically, you should ALWAYS be the first person to grab a TE in the 3rd round if you want to have the best team possible.There is a *strong* body of evidence to suggest that drafting a TE early is actually one of the best strategies in all of fantasy football. One mediocre season from Gonzalez (where he still performed like a 4th round pick) and three mediocre games from Gates do not qualify as "PRIME examples" to the contrary.

I love how all these people who are shocked about Gates' lousy production with Rivers at QB.There are about 10-15 active pro bowl QB's in the world, and Gates/SD backers act like they can just put a guy in there with no expereince and everything will be the same, if not better. If you haven't figured it out yet, shame on you.

I guess that Brian Griese and Kyle Boller are on that list of 10-15 active pro bowl QBs, right? I mean, they both managed to produce stud TEs, and if you're claiming that you need a pro bowl QB to make a stud TE, then you're OBVIOUSLY claiming that both Griese and Boller are pro-bowl caliber QBs, right?

Basic fantasy logic 101: NEVER EVER DRAFT a TE early, and I mean NEVER.

 

[RKMoney]

marty schottenheimer is possibly the worst coach i have ever seen. i'd be worried about tomlinson too if i were you guys. he'll grind out good yardage, but until schottenheimer learns to coach and opens up the offense, LT's big games are gone.

Wow, you must not have seen very many coaches if the worst one you've ever seen is a three-time Coach of the Year with a career 58% winning percentage, almost 200 wins, and 2 losing seasons.Fun little did you know... Schotty has fewer losing seasons in 21 years (2) than Shanny has in 14 (3), Bellichick has in 12 (5), or Cowher has in 14 (3). All of this comes despite the fact that Schotty has taken on FOUR different reclamation projects. Schottenheimer didn't post his first sub-.500 record until his 15th year as a head coach.

More fun facts... did you know that Marty Schottenheimer has an entire coaching tree? Cowher, Cunningham, Dungy, and Herm Edwards are all Schottenheimer disciples. Those are some seriously good coaches, too. Cowher and Dungy have two of the highest winning percentages in NFL history. They're also guys who get criticized as unable to get it done in the playoffs... although, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think we'll be hearing much of that anymore.

Learn your football, people. Keep some perspective. Schotty's one of the top-10 coaches in the league.

woah, what are you, marty's son? or just a bitter condescending loser who hates his life, and copies paragraphs out of wikipedia to try and prove his points?

all that winning, and how many superbowls has he won? schottenheimer is overrated by anybody who thinks he can coach in the first place, and is nothing more than an old man who cannot adjust to the times, and will grind games out and play not to lose as long as idiot owners still allow him to coach. there is not a current head coach i'd want coaching my team less than him. the guy is in his own world and just doesnt get it.

 

[SSOG]

Basic fantasy logic 101: NEVER EVER DRAFT a TE early, and I mean NEVER.

If you're a FBGs member, read Drinen's preseason article titled "The 'Optimal' Draft Strategy". He ran the numbers and found that, combining season-ending VBD with preseason ADP, from a historical standpoint, the best way to maximize your point total output was to grab the first TE off the board. He found that the "optimal" draft from every position would always involve being the first person to take a TE, and taking that TE in the 3rd round.But then again, what would I know? I'm just a bitter condescending loser who hates his life, and copies paragraphs out of wikipedia to try and prove his points. And I'm sure that, since you disagree with him, Doug Drinen must be, as well.

 

[walkwithme]

If you have him in a dynasty league you are going to keep him regardless. In a redraft league depending on your bench at TE you may be able to trade Gates and make up the point difference at TE to get an advantage at WR or QB. Just my opinion. With that being said its only the 3rd game of the season for them. They played a tough defense and two easier opponents that they basically ran the ball on all day. There is no way they will be so one dimensional throughout the regular season expect the win.

 

[Despyzer]

Regardless of situation last year, Gates got his numbers. Every week there is a different excuse/reason for Gates' lousy numbers. At some point people will accept the truth. Rivers is killing Gates, no other factors matter.

I'd put this joker on Ignore if his nonsense didn't crack me up so much.

 

[H.K.]

Regardless of situation last year, Gates got his numbers. Every week there is a different excuse/reason for Gates' lousy numbers. At some point people will accept the truth. Rivers is killing Gates, no other factors matter.

I'd put this joker on Ignore if his nonsense didn't crack me up so much.

Either that, or you'd hate to miss out on my expertise on this subject. From the spotlight thread:

H.K. Jul 11 2006, 04:38 PM Post #8 QB is not a position that is plug and play, so Rivers should really hurt Gates this season. Gates has had two of the best FF seasons ever for a TE...but Brees was his QB. Now the Chargers have a complete unknown at QB, a very difficult schedule, and no other weapons in the passing game to take the heat off of Gates. Gonzo, Heap, Crumpler & Shockey should all have better years than Gates. Better off letting someone else grab him and go for a guy like McMichael or Witten later on if you can't get one of the big four.55 Rec.673 Yards5 TD's

Let's see....Gates is now on pace for 53 catches, 640 yards and 5 TD's.....looks like I overestimated him a bit.

 

[SCT]

Basic fantasy logic 101: NEVER EVER DRAFT a TE early, and I mean NEVER.

If you're a FBGs member, read Drinen's preseason article titled "The 'Optimal' Draft Strategy". He ran the numbers and found that, combining season-ending VBD with preseason ADP, from a historical standpoint, the best way to maximize your point total output was to grab the first TE off the board. He found that the "optimal" draft from every position would always involve being the first person to take a TE, and taking that TE in the 3rd round.But then again, what would I know? I'm just a bitter condescending loser who hates his life, and copies paragraphs out of wikipedia to try and prove his points. And I'm sure that, since you disagree with him, Doug Drinen must be, as well.

SSOG, you ARE good enough, smart enough, and dog gone it, people like you!

 

[Tau837]

Regardless of situation last year, Gates got his numbers. Every week there is a different excuse/reason for Gates' lousy numbers. At some point people will accept the truth. Rivers is killing Gates, no other factors matter.

I'd put this joker on Ignore if his nonsense didn't crack me up so much.

Either that, or you'd hate to miss out on my expertise on this subject. From the spotlight thread:

H.K. Jul 11 2006, 04:38 PM Post #8 QB is not a position that is plug and play, so Rivers should really hurt Gates this season. Gates has had two of the best FF seasons ever for a TE...but Brees was his QB. Now the Chargers have a complete unknown at QB, a very difficult schedule, and no other weapons in the passing game to take the heat off of Gates. Gonzo, Heap, Crumpler & Shockey should all have better years than Gates. Better off letting someone else grab him and go for a guy like McMichael or Witten later on if you can't get one of the big four.55 Rec.673 Yards5 TD's

Let's see....Gates is now on pace for 53 catches, 640 yards and 5 TD's.....looks like I overestimated him a bit.

Given the laughers they played in weeks 1 and 2 and the ultra-conservative game plan that failed in week 4, I'd say Gates' averages to date are a floor, barring injury, and his averages are likely to go up. He is a good buy low candidate right now IMO.

 

[WildGeneral]

At the risk of having this thread hijacked about the coaching ability of good old Marty, I just want to say that, 6 weeks later, I still feel slighted by Gates' role in this offense.

I don't understand why you would have that kind of talent on the field and not use it. They paid him big money last year--why not cash in on that ability? If the Chargers wanted a blocking TE, they could have had one for a lot less $$.

[...and, yes, I'm a disgruntled Gates owner in 2 different leagues...so forgive me while I whine.]

 

[Lauryn]

not so sure rivers is killing gates as much as tomlinson is... he's been that dominant.

 

[broncofan13000]

not so sure rivers is killing gates as much as tomlinson is... he's been that dominant.

Agreed. Gates doesn't even get any looks inside the 10 because LT has been so automatic.

 

[RKMoney]

Basic fantasy logic 101: NEVER EVER DRAFT a TE early, and I mean NEVER.

If you're a FBGs member, read Drinen's preseason article titled "The 'Optimal' Draft Strategy". He ran the numbers and found that, combining season-ending VBD with preseason ADP, from a historical standpoint, the best way to maximize your point total output was to grab the first TE off the board. He found that the "optimal" draft from every position would always involve being the first person to take a TE, and taking that TE in the 3rd round.But then again, what would I know? I'm just a bitter condescending loser who hates his life, and copies paragraphs out of wikipedia to try and prove his points. And I'm sure that, since you disagree with him, Doug Drinen must be, as well.

Again, I stand by what I said, you can go back every year and find TE that were drafted mid to later rounds gave you as good or BETTER value than blowing a TE pick early. Gates this year is a glaring example of this.

 

[The Man Who Met Andy Griffith]

Again, I stand by what I said, you can go back every year and find TE that were drafted mid to later rounds gave you as good or BETTER value than blowing a TE pick early. Gates this year is a glaring example of this.

Replace TE with RB, WR or QB and the same holds. I don't see your point. In general Gates / Gonzo have been very high VBD selections compared to their ADP's. This year has been an exception, and if it continues Gates will be huge value next yera.

 

[Michael Brown]

Again, I stand by what I said, you can go back every year and find TE that were drafted mid to later rounds gave you as good or BETTER value than blowing a TE pick early. Gates this year is a glaring example of this.

Replace TE with RB, WR or QB and the same holds. I don't see your point. In general Gates / Gonzo have been very high VBD selections compared to their ADP's. This year has been an exception, and if it continues Gates will be huge value next yera.

Not to mention, in order to get that TE who represents that good or BETTER value in the mid to later rounds, you have to actually get a good TE. This year, you might have waited on Gates and thought you were making the shark move in drafting Jason Witten, Randy McMichael, or Ben Watson. Those guys are all well and good if you passed on Gates to draft Reggie Wayne or TO, off-setting the difference. But what if you took Reggie Bush, or Chambers, or Santana Moss and paired them up with McMichael? While Gates has not lived up to his ADP, he has turned in a top-5 season and is pretty much a lock to finish at or better than his current ranking. That has to count for something when you make the pick. You don't always draft the #1 guy at a position so that he can definitely finish #1 at the position (P.Manning, Tomlinson). You pick him first because the downside is smaller than anyone else, and they're a lock to at least be top-5. Minimize risk early, hit on sleepers in the mid-late rounds, find a gem or two late or on the waiver wire. Now THAT'S fantasy 101.

 

[The Great Snook]

The part that is killing me is that they don't throw to Gates until the 4th quarter (when they need to win the game). You would think they would use him all 4 quarters.

 

[tandl71]

Regardless of situation last year, Gates got his numbers. Every week there is a different excuse/reason for Gates' lousy numbers. At some point people will accept the truth. Rivers is killing Gates, no other factors matter.

I'd put this joker on Ignore if his nonsense didn't crack me up so much.

Ah, so THAT's the famous H.K. who's also disappointed in Gates this year!

 

[bollocks28]

As long as #21 keeps getting the ball and the Chargers keep winning I am a happy man.

 

[trader jake]

Bump.

Still panicking?

 

[MSULions]

Regardless of situation last year, Gates got his numbers. Every week there is a different excuse/reason for Gates' lousy numbers. At some point people will accept the truth. Rivers is killing Gates, no other factors matter.

I'd put this joker on Ignore if his nonsense didn't crack me up so much.

Either that, or you'd hate to miss out on my expertise on this subject. From the spotlight thread:

H.K. Jul 11 2006, 04:38 PM Post #8 QB is not a position that is plug and play, so Rivers should really hurt Gates this season. Gates has had two of the best FF seasons ever for a TE...but Brees was his QB. Now the Chargers have a complete unknown at QB, a very difficult schedule, and no other weapons in the passing game to take the heat off of Gates. Gonzo, Heap, Crumpler & Shockey should all have better years than Gates. Better off letting someone else grab him and go for a guy like McMichael or Witten later on if you can't get one of the big four.55 Rec.673 Yards5 TD's

Let's see....Gates is now on pace for 53 catches, 640 yards and 5 TD's.....looks like I overestimated him a bit.

with 3 games to go:64 rec.798 yds8 tdsyeah, you're practically nostradamus!

 

[MSULions]

oh, and he's now "on pace" for 79 catches, 982 yards, and 10 tds. terrible year

 

[j3r3m3y]

oh, and he's now "on pace" for 79 catches, 982 yards, and 10 tds. terrible year

Hear that sound? That is the sound of him registering a new account under a new nick.

 

[Tau837]

Brees was a probowler, Rivers is inexperienced. ... Brees was a huge part of Gates success, he is gone and Gates is middle of the pack FF wise. Case closed.

Wrong on two counts, to dismiss Rivers because of inexperience and to be down on Gates.In both of my leagues, Gates is the #1 TE right now (not counting Colston as a TE). And Rivers is the #10 QB in one league, less than 1 point behind #8, and the #8 QB in the other league.