TommyGilmore
Footballguy
Waaaaaa-sappening?
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Arizona passes nation's toughest immigration law (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
You have the right to open your wallet and prove you are legal. If you are legal and or not a criminal why would it bother you to be questioned by the police?
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Even worse ... what if you left it in El Segundo?
Homer J Simpson
I don't push
Maybe I don't f***ing feel like it.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
videoguy505
Footballguy
What's the police code for WWM (Walking While Mexican)?
Thorn
Footballguy
Some great fishing going on in this thread. Just when hucks drops out two deep comes off the bench and just murders it.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
I gotta get it. I got got to get it.
timschochet
Footballguy
While two deep could very well be fishing, I'm fairly sure LHUCKS was not.
Thorn
Footballguy
Timstock: sell
Zow
Footballguy
The long answer to this is it varies state by state and by what type of test it is, warrant considerations, admin per ses, etc. The short answer is Ray Stevens doesn't know what he is talking about.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
To be fair these are issues he really shouldn't know much about unless he is a practicing attorney.
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
lolTo be fair these are issues he really shouldn't know much about unless he is a practicing attorney.
Radical Larry
Footballguy
DON"T LOOK, ETHEL!!!!To be fair these are issues he really shouldn't know much about unless he is a practicing attorney.
Ray Stevens
Footballguy
You're correct that I'm not a lawyer. But I have been through the CA DUI system before. All I'm saying is that in California, you will be arrested if you refuse the breath test in the field. I'm also saying that the DUI analogy is really stupid.To be fair these are issues he really shouldn't know much about unless he is a practicing attorney.
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KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
Sometimes he is. :(To be fair these are issues he really shouldn't know much about unless he is a practicing attorney.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Ray Stevens
Footballguy
True, true. But not today. And probably not until around June 18th or so.Sometimes he is. :(To be fair these are issues he really shouldn't know much about unless he is a practicing attorney.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I went through the law and posted solely about its language and haven't really gotten into what the thread has turned into and much of those posts were ignored as well.
This is a hot button topic. Made pretty clear by the reference tim makes to the Tea Party. It's actually comical at this point how people that seem to hate a group of Americans getting politically active with the impetus being government spending and taxation and those forms of policy arguments now bring it up all the time whenever they think it should be brought up - tim with illegal immigration, tobias with Washington DC statehood. We are so used to political movements becoming omnibus that we don't recognize ones that aren't. If they take one stand they must take others or they are frauds.Similarly, like topics of racism (which come into play here when people like tim need to emphasize their point) and abortion, illegal immigration has simply become emotional. Logic and reason seem to have been lost long ago, or at least ignored for awhile because the 30 second sound byte culture got hold of the dialogue. Much of this law is a net policy good I think. Much of it mimics certain ideals in other immigration laws. The one devil that has all panties in a bunch is the reasonable inquiry to request status portion of the bill (and I have that language wrong I think but I'm not going back to find it again). I think there could be procedural as well as constitutional issues there. However, in order to combat what I saw as problems the law goes on further to address what I thought would be the way around it and that is to make loitering and tresspass crimes for more punitive when the person is an illegal. The question then becomes one of selective or barbaric enforcement measured against the resources and common sense of the local police departments charged with enforcing the law.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I don't beleive that is a fair characterization of the law at all.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
There are penalties in the law for businesses who hire illegals. Maybe you should read it?
videoguy505
Footballguy
Thanks for your input, Yankee23, I remember your earlier posts and was hoping you'd return to the thread. Seems like recently Woz was the closest thing we had to a real lawyer in here, and the thread has surely suffered for it.
There are definitely some problems I see with the law, but there are still many unanswered questions. Hopefully more fruitful discussion will follow.
There are definitely some problems I see with the law, but there are still many unanswered questions. Hopefully more fruitful discussion will follow.
Ray Stevens
Footballguy
People always forget the requirement that person in question also must be driving an Impala with curb feelers.The Supreme Court decision Illinois v. Gates (1983) lowered the threshold of probable cause by ruling that a "substantial chance" or "fair probability" of criminal activity could establish probable cause. A better-than-even chance is not required.The illegal immigrant population of the United States in 2008 was estimated by the Center for Immigration Studies to be about 11 million people, down from 12.5 million people in 2007.[2] According to a Pew Hispanic Center report, in 2005, 57% of illegal immigrants were from Mexico; 24% were from other Latin American countries, primarily from Central America;[3] 9% were from Asia; 6% were from Europe; and 4% were from the rest of the world.[3]
Illegal immigrants continue to outpace the number of legal immigrants -- a trend that's held steady since the 1990s. While the majority of illegal aliens continue to concentrate in places with existing large communities of Hispanics, increasingly illegal immigrants are settling throughout the rest of the country.[4]
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Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Which is why I had posted early on that this seems on first blush to be an expansion of a Terry stop for people that look Mexican. But the more you read the actual law becing discussed, I don't know if that is "entirely" true. It seems that they have tried to craft a law that requires the Terry stop stuff, but also criminalizes certain , let's say behaviors, that law enforcement knows are done by illegals - the loitering/trespass language.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
AGain, if you actually read the law itself and not the talking points you are working from, you will see a further caveat to the hiring legal documented worker clause that requires updated data based on some Arizona database (that I have no idea at all how it works but I do remember reading about it).If your argument here is a lack of enforcement of all of the provisions of the law, maybe we should give them more then a few days to track the progress?
timschochet
Footballguy
Wow- you make a lot of assumptions here that I really take issue with, so let me respond:1. I do not hate the tea party movement. But I do find them hypocritical. They claim to be for reducing the size of government in general, but like many Republicans, it turns out that they only want to reduce the size of government with regard to certain issues, and not across the line. The hypocrisy is at its heaviest regarding this issue, because so many of the tea party types tend to be the same ones so concerned with illegal immigration. Populism is at the root of both issues. 2. I have not used examples of racism here to emphasize my point. I believe there is no way to enforce this law without racism occuring. That does not make those who support this law racist (although it turns out that the writer of this law IS racist and possibly an anti-Semite to boot.) I think that using Nazi rhetoric here is over the top. 3. You state that "much of this law is a net policy good". This leaves me at a total loss, since I can't think of one single aspect of this law that is good. I'd like to know specifically which parts of it you're in favor of.I went through the law and posted solely about its language and haven't really gotten into what the thread has turned into and much of those posts were ignored as well.This is a hot button topic. Made pretty clear by the reference tim makes to the Tea Party. It's actually comical at this point how people that seem to hate a group of Americans getting politically active with the impetus being government spending and taxation and those forms of policy arguments now bring it up all the time whenever they think it should be brought up - tim with illegal immigration, tobias with Washington DC statehood. We are so used to political movements becoming omnibus that we don't recognize ones that aren't. If they take one stand they must take others or they are frauds.Similarly, like topics of racism (which come into play here when people like tim need to emphasize their point) and abortion, illegal immigration has simply become emotional. Logic and reason seem to have been lost long ago, or at least ignored for awhile because the 30 second sound byte culture got hold of the dialogue. Much of this law is a net policy good I think. Much of it mimics certain ideals in other immigration laws. The one devil that has all panties in a bunch is the reasonable inquiry to request status portion of the bill (and I have that language wrong I think but I'm not going back to find it again). I think there could be procedural as well as constitutional issues there. However, in order to combat what I saw as problems the law goes on further to address what I thought would be the way around it and that is to make loitering and tresspass crimes for more punitive when the person is an illegal. The question then becomes one of selective or barbaric enforcement measured against the resources and common sense of the local police departments charged with enforcing the law.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I can think of several.The loitering tresspass language of the bill is one such example. It's must be fairly obvious based on training, observation and statisticsof Arizona law enforcment that loitering is a rather open and obvious behavior of illegal immigrants, given that it is most likely the method of how they obtain employment. This is no different then local PD's patrolling certain areas of the woods in neck of the...... well, woods, because it is known that that is where teenagers go to do heroin. This isn't rocket science.
Homer J Simpson
I don't push
Someone should donate them a new website. That's unpleasing.
Only true for the field sobriety test. If you refuse a breath test, your license will be suspended.
timschochet
Footballguy
Again, just a terrible analogy. If the teenagers are doing heroin, they are committing a crime (though whether this should be considered a crime is a different issue.) But the other people you're talking about, what crime are they committing? You're not arresting them for doing heroin, you're arresting them for being.
Fixed
videoguy505
Footballguy
Fixed. Sorry Tim, but I find the mere presence of someone in this country who is unauthorized to be here enough of a reason to deport them. I do see it as a crime. I also see it as evidence they committed a crime in the past, namely, sneaking across a border somewhere. Their current status is evidence enough they broke a law to get in.
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Statorama
Footballguy
Gotta start with the basics on this one.
I can't see anyone that would disagree that someone who enters this country without going through the legal channels is breaking the law. If someone is pulled over for a traffic stop and isn't in this country legally, they should be bounced and forced to go through the proper channels.
People from other countries that have gone through the immigration process have my respect. Turning a blind eye to people here illegally is a slap in the face to those that have done it the right way.
I can't see anyone that would disagree that someone who enters this country without going through the legal channels is breaking the law. If someone is pulled over for a traffic stop and isn't in this country legally, they should be bounced and forced to go through the proper channels.
People from other countries that have gone through the immigration process have my respect. Turning a blind eye to people here illegally is a slap in the face to those that have done it the right way.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I don't care about the Tea Party at all - it's entirely possible that these two posts represent the first time I've typed the name here. Having said that, I don't find it hypocritical at all to focus on one poplicy avenue and not another.
Your track record of racism and that type of argument is fairly open to everyone here. You go to the extreme rather quickly. I do in certain topics as well.
Punishing business for hiring illegals and giving teeth to those measures for one. But you support full open borders without legislation, so I get your opinion. I'm actually closer to you then you would think.
timschochet
Footballguy
I like the workers hanging out at Home Depot. I've never hired one, but I probably will one of these days. I like their industriousness. They are looking for work; what's wrong with that? We'd be much better off just giving them all amnesty already.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
You seem to be missing that point. If you are here illegally you are committing a crime.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I agree.I however, am not much better than they are creating a website.
At least the donation page is https.
BTW, I donated $50 to them just now. Time to boycott those brownshirts in AZ.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I think you should ask some legal immigrants is they think that illegal immigration "is a slap in the face."
timschochet
Footballguy
You seem to be missing the point. It is a victimless crime which is impossible to prosecute once it has occurred (meaning the act of getting here), unless you are prepared to completely disrupt American ideas of jurisprudence.
Ray Stevens
Footballguy
Tim, you're not helping.
timschochet
Footballguy
Which aspect of my arguments do you disagree with?
secondplaceisfirstloser
Footballguy
This isn't true. There are plenty of ways to be "here illegally" and not commit a crime. It isn't a crime to be illegally present in the US. It is true that it is a misdemeanor to enter the US without being inspected by US authorities.
Ray Stevens
Footballguy
Pretty much everything you have posted since September of '07, but more specifically, your last post. People against illegal immigration can make a legitimate claim that all taxpayers are victims. And it isn't impossible to prosecute, as Arizona has proved.It may well be illegal and unconstitutional to prosecute, but we'll find that out soon enough.Hey, I'm on your side here. Just cut down on the hyperbole a bit.
They are doing it illegally. I love the Mexicans work ethic but they should enter America legally to work here.
