As a Pats fan... (1 Viewer)

[NoFBinLA]

What are the chances they are worse than BUF-NYJ-MIA next season? Slim to none in my book.

Easy now. We didn't just spend the last season into lulling the entire league into a false sense of security for nothing. You don't think we MEANT to be that bad right?*continues drinking binge*

 

[Boston]

Two days later and this still sucks big-time. I still feel like the Pats didn't give it their best effort. And I still think Brady looked like crap in the game, regardless of what others in here are saying. Lots of short dinky passes which explains the 68% rate. But he had some very bad misses on some wide open receivers. Anyone who says he had a good game just wasn't paying attention.

And I have to add another observation:

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Whew. I feel a little better now. Not much...

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

 

[Black]

Wow. You are making me like the Pats again. Loved them as the underdog in years past. Rooted like hell against them this year when they started running up the score.

Comments:

2. Tyree's catch...pretty sweet. One of many pivotal plays (like the Samuel drop) and probably ONE of the most amazing Superbowl plays ever, and maybe one due to the importance of converting on that third down for the winning drive with less than two minutes left for the major underdog vs. an undefeated team...so, yeah, good argument for top NFL play.

3. Poor Samuel...he'll still get paid next year, but man, that's got to hurt.

4. Interesting fact: the Giants called TAILS. I was like WTF, but they won the toss.

5. Any (every?) QB turns mortal when chased down like that. He's still a top 10 QB all-time, but when folks were talking #1 during games earlier in the season, all I could think was "Was he even touched during that game? His jersey is clean."

9. Not sure about Moss...always been a headcase. I have seen him make some sweet blocks and take a few across the middle, but not sure he's all heart.

The other items, I need to defer to a '75 Pats fan...you definitely have the perspective. Thanks for it.

 

[Papa Schnay]

I'm taking a look at this one from a different angle.

This team has hit its peak, it couldn't have possibly been any better (other than the last loss) for this team. Brady + Moss broke records all season, a great D, good role players...

Every team hits their peak and eventually hits that bump in the road where things just go wrong. The Packers hit theirs after their stretch run, the 'Boys and Steelers hit theirs during their dynasty, and the Patriots may just be hitting theirs now.

Multiple factors lead me to believe this:

1) Asante Samuel is gone. A game changing CB is a very hard commodity to come by, and replacing him with a rookie/average NFL CB will hurt BADLY!

2) Spygate chapter II - Everyone assumes that no penalties are assessed from this new development. You tell me as a Pats fan that if you found out your dynasty started from something like that, you can't possibly be proud of the way that you won. IF what is alleged is true, and they filmed the plays in a walkthrough, that's asinine beyond belief. What could you possibly do that's worse before the big game? People always gun for a winner, and it sounds like a big storm is brewing....which will now potentially involve the government. This can't be good in any way.

3) Salary Cap problems - There's no way that the Patriots can build as solid a team as they had this year in the future. Tom Brady's salary will only go up, Moss will be looking for a payday, it goes on and on. Hometown discounts will only go so far, I expect a MASSIVE cap hit for Moss.

I'm not saying that they can't be a 10 win team next year, they can. <sarcasm> Obviously the coaching staff has figured out how to win a couple of games before </sarcasm>....but I'm saying that all good things eventually come to an end ... and it can unravel VERY quickly ... For instance what if Tom Brady gets hurt? <knock on wood> (I'd never wish that on anyone, btw) The Patriots were able to roll over teams facing the injury bug while avoiding their own players visiting the IR (for real, and NOT because of a probable shoulder).

 

[David Yudkin]

1) Asante Samuel is gone. A game changing CB is a very hard commodity to come by, and replacing him with a rookie/average NFL CB will hurt BADLY!

This one really depends on how you value Samuel. Very good . . . yes. Top 10 CB? Most likely. Game changing? I'm not so sure on that one. He takes a lot of risks and gets some INTs because of it, but he gets burned and at times leaves guys wide open. In one of their SB runs they won a title with starters they signed the month before the SB basically off the street. While I certainly would not suggest that that is the best way to acquire players and still expect to win, with the right puzzle pieces it's possible that no Samuel is not a deal breaker for their title hopes.

2) Spygate chapter II - Everyone assumes that no penalties are assessed from this new development. You tell me as a Pats fan that if you found out your dynasty started from something like that, you can't possibly be proud of the way that you won. IF what is alleged is true, and they filmed the plays in a walkthrough, that's asinine beyond belief. What could you possibly do that's worse before the big game? People always gun for a winner, and it sounds like a big storm is brewing....which will now potentially involve the government. This can't be good in any way.

The league is satisfied there is nothing more to review and IMO I cannot see the league bowing down one or two government officials on how to regulate it's own organization. I don't see much coming out of this, but to each his own.

3) Salary Cap problems - There's no way that the Patriots can build as solid a team as they had this year in the future. Tom Brady's salary will only go up, Moss will be looking for a payday, it goes on and on. Hometown discounts will only go so far, I expect a MASSIVE cap hit for Moss.

The only thing they got extra this year was Moss for $5 million instead of $8 or $9 million. That's it. No one else was a gift or paid on the cheap. Brady carries a $14M+ per year cap hit each season. Yet they have been competitive every year in the BB era.As I outlined in one of these threads, without anyone major people reworking deals and cutting a handful of players, the Pats would be $25 million under the cap next year. And again they can still extend/rework deals. They should have a fair amount of money to spend.

 

[Papa Schnay]

As I outlined in one of these threads, without anyone major people reworking deals and cutting a handful of players, the Pats would be $25 million under the cap next year. And again they can still extend/rework deals. They should have a fair amount of money to spend.

I'd like to see this post, does this include them re-signing Randy Moss?

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

I'll agree the wave may have finally broken, and we are in the roll back from the high water mark. I pretty much agree with all your thoughts across the board general, but I won't get too specific, since I'm in the halo of the win as a Giants fan and want to retain some rational objectivity.

I will add this though to folks who are doubting that this is over. None of us have a crystal ball, but its my experience as a sports fan, that in years when every thing goes right, you generally get some comeuppance the following year. Not because of anything karmic or mystical(or maybe because who knows?) but simply because of the law of averages. And believe me, as a Giant fan who just enjoyed a ride like that, its a concern for me next year! Belichek is a brillant architect, so I wouldnt' count him out, but there is a lot of age on that squad and a lot of question marks going forward. The secondary was basically garbage, and the LBs clearly wore down through age throughout the season. The draft can address one of those needs, but not both in this offseason.

Now, I don't know if anyone has the personel to be that physical with NE as the Giants were. I actually wrote in posts before their first meeting I gave the Giants the best shot then because of their pass rush and power running game that they had a punchers chance in that game. But there is somewhat of a blueprint now, and Brady can expect a lot more heat next year. That will be the template, who knows if it can be executed.

Retaining Moss is absolutely essential, but I'll agree, something about him, and I almost created a separate thread on it, but he just seemed not with it to me. He ended up with decent digits, but his comments leading up to the game were really weird(I just want to go home, I want this week to be over) and after the game, I applaud his candor, but thats not what you want to hear (we were flat, we coulnd't match their intensity). The doorstep to history, undefeated season and a bowl, and you can't dial it up for the coronation? Odd thing is, I don't disagree with him, but he should have been a force long before that last drive. And hell, if Webster doesn't slip, who knows if he even bags that TD. Is he turning back into a pumpkin?

But keeping him is essential, because anything Welker is, is basically a product of Moss' prescence. Randy stretching the field and living in double coverage basically left Welker the underneath open. He's not a number one reciever, but brillant in the slot. Without Randy or a player of his calibre, Welker takes a big step back.

Some mention was made after the game around here about the run/pass balance, and I tend to agree. Their inability to consistenly run the ball is basically in my mind which precluded them from being called the Greatest of all time. They made the O work without it for sure, but when it counted, that lack of a run game burned them I think. Padding the TD totals with garbage TDs was impressive, but if SD was healthy, I don't think the get past them. And they lost to the Giants.

There is too much history to count them out, too much pedigree in the management to discount them, but if I were a fan, I would feel quite uncertain hitting next season.

 

[David Yudkin]

As I outlined in one of these threads, without anyone major people reworking deals and cutting a handful of players, the Pats would be $25 million under the cap next year. And again they can still extend/rework deals. They should have a fair amount of money to spend.

I'd like to see this post, does this include them re-signing Randy Moss?

LINKYou can get a much better picture of their cap situation in there . . .

 

[Chaka]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

 

[Papa Schnay]

As I outlined in one of these threads, without anyone major people reworking deals and cutting a handful of players, the Pats would be $25 million under the cap next year. And again they can still extend/rework deals. They should have a fair amount of money to spend.

I'd like to see this post, does this include them re-signing Randy Moss?

LINKYou can get a much better picture of their cap situation in there . . .

Thank you for the excellent link.I do happen to agree that resigning Moss is the key ingredient here, the rest is just plain gravy.

 

[ElectricShockey]

I think you spend your offseason shoring up that OL ... and yer gonna be fine.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

To a man, all the Patriots players agreed with your perspective in post-game comments.

 

[wadegarrett]

1. Yesterday was the best Superbowl in history. BY FAR. We may not ever see a game this meaningful and this exciting ever again.

Best? . Probably Top 5 though.

2. The David Tyree catch will go down in history as the greatest single play in NFL history.

Again, I think you’re overshooting here. Top 10 for sure. Then you get into arguments over Dwight Clark, Franco Harris, and on and on.

3. How did Samuel (I think it was him) not make that interception a few plays earlier? When it went through his hands I said to myself, "That play will haunt him the rest of his life"

Agree.

4. This year more than any other year I thought the damn coin toss was HUGE. Whoever won the toss had the opportunity to set the tempo for the entire game. If the Pats won the toss, I felt like they would score on the first or second play

Agree about momentum. Disagree the Pats would have scored on the 1st or 2nd play.

5. Tom Brady is over-rated. Yes - I said it. And I'm a Pats fan. He's a great QB, don't get me wrong. But he's not one of the top 5 all-time in my opinion. I thought he played lousy yesterday and lousy 2 weeks ago. Just my opinion.

Certainly not his best game. Wouldn’t go as far as saying he’s overrated though. That’s a bit much.

6. I'll take a good defense over a good offense any day of the week - in any sport.

Agree.

7. This is the worst loss any NFL team has ever suffered. Period - not even close.

Probably.

8. The Giants wanted the game more and deserved to win. When the Giants show up to play, I honestly think they are the best team in football. See #6. Makes you wonder if that defensive front 4 really put out maximum effort at times this season.

Agree.

9. It looked like Randy Moss was dogging it a bit yesterday. Somehow with him I always get the feeling that he is not leaving it all out there on the field.

Agree.

10. As for the future - I think the Pats are DONE. I honestly feel like we saw the end of the dynasty yesterday.

Disagree. Have you seen their schedule next year? Easiest in the NFL by far.

 

[Mr. Pink]

The one observation that you failed to make was that our great and beloved coach (yes I am a Pats fan) acted like a selfish, classless boob at the end of the game. Nice half-hearted hug and early departure, Bill.

He preaches to his players to respect the game, then he walks off with time left on the clock.

I looked past choking the cameraman to give Manigini the scripted post-game hug. I was embarrassed by how he blew past Peyton last year after the championship game, but this one puts it over the top.

He lost. He needs to take it like a man. I'm done with this act.

I would have done a separate post on this, but I'm sure someone beat me to it.

 

[fred_1_15301]

The one observation that you failed to make was that our great and beloved coach (yes I am a Pats fan) acted like a selfish, classless boob at the end of the game. Nice half-hearted hug and early departure, Bill.He preaches to his players to respect the game, then he walks off with time left on the clock. I looked past choking the cameraman to give Manigini the scripted post-game hug. I was embarrassed by how he blew past Peyton last year after the championship game, but this one puts it over the top.He lost. He needs to take it like a man. I'm done with this act.I would have done a separate post on this, but I'm sure someone beat me to it.

.....He's just not a good guy no matter how Pats fans want to spin it.

 

[Lehigh98]

The window is closing!

 

[Chaka]

2. The David Tyree catch will go down in history as the greatest single play in NFL history.

Again, I think you're overshooting here. Top 10 for sure. Then you get into arguments over Dwight Clark, Franco Harris, and on and on.

You can think of 9 plays that were better? I can't think of one play that had as much excitement and demonstrations of concentration and athletic ability on both sides of the play as Manning to Tyree. It was sick on both ends.Randall Cunningham to Fred Barnett vs. the Bills is the only one that comes close on both ends of the play. It was one of the most impressive plays I have ever seen but it was not an elimination game so that takes off some of the luster. Still it was a ridiculous play. (sorry for the poor video quality).

The Immaculate Reception was maybe as impressive because of just how wild that bounce was, plus there was a great deal of significance from the fact that it was originally not ruled a TD when it happened but was changed despite not having replay. It was also an elimination game which adds to it's significance.

Lynn Swann's juggling 50 yarder vs the Cowboys in Super Bowl 10 (not the TD catch) was every bit as impressive for the concentration and agility it required and it was on the biggest stage but Bradshaw had all day to get that pass off.

"The Catch"? Big deal. The play is called Sprint-right-option and was the bread and butter go-to play for the Niners for Montana's entire career there. It was a big play, no doubt, but nothing compared to this.

I don't think any of those plays was quite as impressive as Manning to Tyree but I can see the arguments. But for the life of me I can't think of six or seven others that come close.

 

[PMENFAN]

You are asking for a miracle if you really expected Brady to win it with 35 seconds left.

I've seen this before by Manning and others -- 35 seconds is a long time with 3 time outs. Okay, maybe not against a great defense, like the way the Giants D was playing. Is that what you mean by a miracle?To be honest, I fully expected NE to move the ball down the field and at least get a FG. After all, this was a team that scored at will against every team they faced. It was a shock that they didn't. That sack was huge.

If Brady had an arm, he would have hit Moss on one of those two long passes. He wasn't accurate at all. They rolled the pocket to give him time to set up, and he still couldn't make the throw.As the poster mentioned, other QBs have done it.

What you refuse to acknowledge is, so has Brady. Not on this day, but against the Rams in a SB. Against the Ravens and Eagles thi sseason. He's engineered the last drive many times. Does anybody do it every time? Nope. You obviously think Brady is great, because when he fails to be grerat every time, it's evidence to you, of his lack of greatness. Did Moss even make an attempt to catch those balls? I didn't see it. He just kept running. Any receiver has to at least go up and try to get it. Put it this way. If Tyree gives the same effort as Moss, the Pats win the game. the ball was at least as well thrown as the ball to Tyree. But, we know you hold Tom Brady to a higher standard.

 

[freelander]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

Agreed. And often (as in the case of this Giant front 4) shear althletisism and desire wins over the best scheming and Oline adjustments.

 

[PMENFAN]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

It's an interesting point. Didn't 12 of their 53 sacks come in one game, and in the 2nd game against Philly, they managed only 3 in their second game against the same team, or about average. Their talent is amont the best in the league, but me thinks they utillized intelligence, (how they got it is irrelevant) to figure out line calls and hit the gaps, because they knew where the coverage was rolling to. If it was the Pats who put this much pressure on to anybody, the question would be aqsked. No, the Giants haven't been caught videotaping, but I'm saying you don't beat up any line in the league to the extent they did the Pats in the SB (after 1 sack in the regular season) and the eagles, without knowing what the line is doing. Am I accusing the Giants of cheating? Not at all. they could have picked the calls up, but it's beyond coincidence to me. Twelve sacks agains one team, and five against one of the best lines in football, and huge disparity in the two games you play. Are they good? Yep, but you look a lot better when you know where the leverage is going.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

It's an interesting point. Didn't 12 of their 53 sacks come in one game, and in the 2nd game against Philly, they managed only 3 in their second game against the same team, or about average. Their talent is amont the best in the league, but me thinks they utillized intelligence, (how they got it is irrelevant) to figure out line calls and hit the gaps, because they knew where the coverage was rolling to. If it was the Pats who put this much pressure on to anybody, the question would be aqsked. No, the Giants haven't been caught videotaping, but I'm saying you don't beat up any line in the league to the extent they did the Pats in the SB (after 1 sack in the regular season) and the eagles, without knowing what the line is doing. Am I accusing the Giants of cheating? Not at all. they could have picked the calls up, but it's beyond coincidence to me. Twelve sacks agains one team, and five against one of the best lines in football, and huge disparity in the two games you play. Are they good? Yep, but you look a lot better when you know where the leverage is going.

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Workhorse]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

It's an interesting point. Didn't 12 of their 53 sacks come in one game, and in the 2nd game against Philly, they managed only 3 in their second game against the same team, or about average. Their talent is amont the best in the league, but me thinks they utillized intelligence, (how they got it is irrelevant) to figure out line calls and hit the gaps, because they knew where the coverage was rolling to. If it was the Pats who put this much pressure on to anybody, the question would be aqsked. No, the Giants haven't been caught videotaping, but I'm saying you don't beat up any line in the league to the extent they did the Pats in the SB (after 1 sack in the regular season) and the eagles, without knowing what the line is doing. Am I accusing the Giants of cheating? Not at all. they could have picked the calls up, but it's beyond coincidence to me. Twelve sacks agains one team, and five against one of the best lines in football, and huge disparity in the two games you play. Are they good? Yep, but you look a lot better when you know where the leverage is going.

Um.... you're all on your own on this one.Best of luck.

 

[Chaka]

Am I accusing the Giants of cheating? Not at all.

but it's beyond coincidence to me.

It sounds like you are accusing them of something. I would be accusing them of having played the Pats a month earlier and perhaps learning a few things.Any offensive line in the history of the game would be hard pressed to keep Strahan and Osi off the QB twice in four weeks.

 

[The foo]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

It's an interesting point. Didn't 12 of their 53 sacks come in one game, and in the 2nd game against Philly, they managed only 3 in their second game against the same team, or about average. Their talent is amont the best in the league, but me thinks they utillized intelligence, (how they got it is irrelevant) to figure out line calls and hit the gaps, because they knew where the coverage was rolling to. If it was the Pats who put this much pressure on to anybody, the question would be aqsked. No, the Giants haven't been caught videotaping, but I'm saying you don't beat up any line in the league to the extent they did the Pats in the SB (after 1 sack in the regular season) and the eagles, without knowing what the line is doing. Am I accusing the Giants of cheating? Not at all. they could have picked the calls up, but it's beyond coincidence to me. Twelve sacks agains one team, and five against one of the best lines in football, and huge disparity in the two games you play. Are they good? Yep, but you look a lot better when you know where the leverage is going.

 

[switz]

It's an interesting point. Didn't 12 of their 53 sacks come in one game, and in the 2nd game against Philly, they managed only 3 in their second game against the same team, or about average. Their talent is amont the best in the league, but me thinks they utillized intelligence, (how they got it is irrelevant) to figure out line calls and hit the gaps, because they knew where the coverage was rolling to. If it was the Pats who put this much pressure on to anybody, the question would be aqsked. No, the Giants haven't been caught videotaping, but I'm saying you don't beat up any line in the league to the extent they did the Pats in the SB (after 1 sack in the regular season) and the eagles, without knowing what the line is doing. Am I accusing the Giants of cheating? Not at all. they could have picked the calls up, but it's beyond coincidence to me. Twelve sacks agains one team, and five against one of the best lines in football, and huge disparity in the two games you play. Are they good? Yep, but you look a lot better when you know where the leverage is going.

What?? Pathetic Pats fans trying to find excuses

 

[Road Warriors]

It's an interesting point. Didn't 12 of their 53 sacks come in one game, and in the 2nd game against Philly, they managed only 3 in their second game against the same team, or about average. Their talent is amont the best in the league, but me thinks they utillized intelligence, (how they got it is irrelevant) to figure out line calls and hit the gaps, because they knew where the coverage was rolling to. If it was the Pats who put this much pressure on to anybody, the question would be aqsked. No, the Giants haven't been caught videotaping, but I'm saying you don't beat up any line in the league to the extent they did the Pats in the SB (after 1 sack in the regular season) and the eagles, without knowing what the line is doing. Am I accusing the Giants of cheating? Not at all. they could have picked the calls up, but it's beyond coincidence to me. Twelve sacks agains one team, and five against one of the best lines in football, and huge disparity in the two games you play. Are they good? Yep, but you look a lot better when you know where the leverage is going.

What?? Pathetic Pats fans trying to find excuses

He's alone on this one. Lets not lump us all together here.

 

[TD Ryan]

I'm still trying to crawl out from under this giant boulder... it's the worst sports loss I have ever experienced.

I still haven't read any newspapers, websites, listened to sports radio, or watched news/sports reports.

The minute the Gatorade went over Coughlin's head, I shut it off and have avoided all of it.

Yup. It's that bad.

When the Pats were in the middle of this quest for perfection, after the records were falling, etc I wasn't sure how much (or even if) losing the SB would be that bad... now, having experienced it, it's worse than I could ever imagine... there was no higher place to fall from.

The Giants deserved that win. Not only for what they did in week 17, but also for the simple fact that they were flat out better than NE on Sunday.

And with all that said, and as dark and dismal as it is for me as a Pats fan right now, I know they're still going to be a very good team next year. My predictions:

Likely the AFC East winner.

Possibly a Playoff bye.

and maybe a SuperBowl winner.

I'm just not ready to think about it all right now.

 

[J Andersson]

What are the chances they are worse than BUF-NYJ-MIA next season? Slim to none in my book.People are WAY overreacting that the Pats are toast. They still won 18 games this year and lost a battle in the SB.People are overreacting that the Pats defense is not very good. They allowed 16 ppg in the playoffs and 17 ppg in the regular season. In their other recent seasons (going backwards), they allowed 14.8, 21.1, 16.2, 14.9, 21.6, and 17.0. Not a huge difference IMO (although many will say they gave up more points in fewer plays so that they are that much worse but I disagree).They likely still have more talent and fewer holes than all (most?) of the other teams in the league. How far are people thinking they will fall in a single season?

I couldn't agree more. Every year everyone gets all dramatic about team A, B and C being done because of playoff losses. A playoff loss and especially a SB loss in a single year is huge but is not the sole reason for a teams demise. Especially not a team that went 18-1 in that season with the core of players intact (as many before me has pointed out).I don't see any major reasons why the Patriots are done. Do they have issues to deal with during the offseason? Sure (not that many though).

 

[The Gatekeeper]

Lots of interesting points here. I agree on most but not all. You say that Tom Brady is over rated. I cant agree with that one. Look at all of the other qbs in the discussion of best ever, Montana, Elway, Unitas, Manning, Favre. It doesnt really matter who you throw in the discussion, they all have their faults. Unitas was before my time, but as for rest, it was clear to me that they all are less than perfect. Montana was replaced by Young (how could the best ever lose his job pre-salary cap), Elway lost 3 superbowls, Manning has struggled more often than not in the post season and Favre is prone to throwing interceptions. I think we need to take a step back and realize that these guys are human. They occasionally make mistakes. Brady has one of the best regular season and post season winning percentages of all time. He has won 3 superbowls rings. What more do you want? He was at his best when the talent around him was less than stellar. If you think he isnt great, try watching some of the qbs in the next tier for a season (McNabb, Bulger, Roethlisberger, Palmer, Brees) they aren't nearly as consistent. They have many more stinkers than Brady. I dont know how many times I have watched a non-patriots game and been struck with just how lucky our team is to have Brady. Without Brady, I dont know that this team has any of its championships. Brady is only 30. I wouldnt be at all surprised if he won another superbowl before he is all said and done.I dont think the Patriots are done by any stretch. They just went 18-1 against one of the toughest schedules in the league. The core of their team is young and signed long term. When I say core, I mean Brady and the offensive and defensive lines. The o-line got abused yesterday, but lets not forget how well they did the rest of the year. Welker is signed long term as is Maroney. If Moss & Stallworth go, so be it. Gaffney did pretty well in the playoffs last year with only Reche Caldwell to "draw" coverage away. Adalius Thomas and Mike Vrabel have several good years left.I think the Patriots need to get much younger at the Line Backer spot and they need to address the Samuel situation and find an upgrade to Hobbs. I think that Merriweather may grow into a good safety. If Morris can be healthy for next year, it will make a big difference to the running game. He really fit their system perfectly. I am not sold on Maroney. I saw him run hard in the playoffs, but he just doesnt seem to provide a consitent effort. They have some holes, but they are manageable. This team is a sack away from being touted as the best team ever. Lets not over-react.

I think you're reaching on the "how can Montana be the best when he was replaced by Steve Young" comment. That is like me saying "how can Brady be considered one of the best when he wasn't even drafted until the 6th round." It sounds ridiculous and just in case you haven't heard, Steve Young is in the Hall of Fame.

 

[fred_1_15301]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

It's an interesting point. Didn't 12 of their 53 sacks come in one game, and in the 2nd game against Philly, they managed only 3 in their second game against the same team, or about average. Their talent is amont the best in the league, but me thinks they utillized intelligence, (how they got it is irrelevant) to figure out line calls and hit the gaps, because they knew where the coverage was rolling to. If it was the Pats who put this much pressure on to anybody, the question would be aqsked. No, the Giants haven't been caught videotaping, but I'm saying you don't beat up any line in the league to the extent they did the Pats in the SB (after 1 sack in the regular season) and the eagles, without knowing what the line is doing. Am I accusing the Giants of cheating? Not at all. they could have picked the calls up, but it's beyond coincidence to me. Twelve sacks agains one team, and five against one of the best lines in football, and huge disparity in the two games you play. Are they good? Yep, but you look a lot better when you know where the leverage is going.

This sure sounds like an accusation to me...... . Not to mention a pretty lousy excuse for your team losing.....

 

[switz]

Lots of interesting points here. I agree on most but not all. You say that Tom Brady is over rated. I cant agree with that one. Look at all of the other qbs in the discussion of best ever, Montana, Elway, Unitas, Manning, Favre. It doesnt really matter who you throw in the discussion, they all have their faults. Unitas was before my time, but as for rest, it was clear to me that they all are less than perfect. Montana was replaced by Young (how could the best ever lose his job pre-salary cap), Elway lost 3 superbowls, Manning has struggled more often than not in the post season and Favre is prone to throwing interceptions. I think we need to take a step back and realize that these guys are human. They occasionally make mistakes. Brady has one of the best regular season and post season winning percentages of all time. He has won 3 superbowls rings. What more do you want? He was at his best when the talent around him was less than stellar. If you think he isnt great, try watching some of the qbs in the next tier for a season (McNabb, Bulger, Roethlisberger, Palmer, Brees) they aren't nearly as consistent. They have many more stinkers than Brady. I dont know how many times I have watched a non-patriots game and been struck with just how lucky our team is to have Brady. Without Brady, I dont know that this team has any of its championships. Brady is only 30. I wouldnt be at all surprised if he won another superbowl before he is all said and done.I dont think the Patriots are done by any stretch. They just went 18-1 against one of the toughest schedules in the league. The core of their team is young and signed long term. When I say core, I mean Brady and the offensive and defensive lines. The o-line got abused yesterday, but lets not forget how well they did the rest of the year. Welker is signed long term as is Maroney. If Moss & Stallworth go, so be it. Gaffney did pretty well in the playoffs last year with only Reche Caldwell to "draw" coverage away. Adalius Thomas and Mike Vrabel have several good years left.I think the Patriots need to get much younger at the Line Backer spot and they need to address the Samuel situation and find an upgrade to Hobbs. I think that Merriweather may grow into a good safety. If Morris can be healthy for next year, it will make a big difference to the running game. He really fit their system perfectly. I am not sold on Maroney. I saw him run hard in the playoffs, but he just doesnt seem to provide a consitent effort. They have some holes, but they are manageable. This team is a sack away from being touted as the best team ever. Lets not over-react.

I think you're reaching on the "how can Montana be the best when he was replaced by Steve Young" comment. That is like me saying "how can Brady be considered one of the best when he wasn't even drafted until the 6th round." It sounds ridiculous and just in case you haven't heard, Steve Young is in the Hall of Fame.

Plus one thing to consider with Young is that he had YEARS to learn the SF system, and was successful in a large part because he understood it so well. Plus Montana still played at a high level in KC, so it's not like he was washed up, it was just a business decision to go with the younger guy.

 

[Neo]

I'm still trying to crawl out from under this giant boulder... it's the worst sports loss I have ever experienced.I still haven't read any newspapers, websites, listened to sports radio, or watched news/sports reports.The minute the Gatorade went over Coughlin's head, I shut it off and have avoided all of it.Yup. It's that bad.When the Pats were in the middle of this quest for perfection, after the records were falling, etc I wasn't sure how much (or even if) losing the SB would be that bad... now, having experienced it, it's worse than I could ever imagine... there was no higher place to fall from.The Giants deserved that win. Not only for what they did in week 17, but also for the simple fact that they were flat out better than NE on Sunday.And with all that said, and as dark and dismal as it is for me as a Pats fan right now, I know they're still going to be a very good team next year. My predictions:Likely the AFC East winner.Possibly a Playoff bye.and maybe a SuperBowl winner.I'm just not ready to think about it all right now.

Not rubbing it in really, but as a Giants fan it has been completely opposite experience for me. I keep turning on the radio, watching replays, reading blogs, buying memorabilia...just really letting it all soak in. It's been a fun ride. Now having said that I went through something similar with the Mets losing last year....I know it can't compare in terms of magnitude and importance but as a sports fan I know the pain and withdrawal your going through. It's a tough pill to swallow.

 

[redman]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

It's an interesting point. Didn't 12 of their 53 sacks come in one game, and in the 2nd game against Philly, they managed only 3 in their second game against the same team, or about average. Their talent is amont the best in the league, but me thinks they utillized intelligence, (how they got it is irrelevant) to figure out line calls and hit the gaps, because they knew where the coverage was rolling to. If it was the Pats who put this much pressure on to anybody, the question would be aqsked. No, the Giants haven't been caught videotaping, but I'm saying you don't beat up any line in the league to the extent they did the Pats in the SB (after 1 sack in the regular season) and the eagles, without knowing what the line is doing. Am I accusing the Giants of cheating? Not at all. they could have picked the calls up, but it's beyond coincidence to me. Twelve sacks agains one team, and five against one of the best lines in football, and huge disparity in the two games you play. Are they good? Yep, but you look a lot better when you know where the leverage is going.

 

[TD Ryan]

Not rubbing it in really, but as a Giants fan it has been completely opposite experience for me. I keep turning on the radio, watching replays, reading blogs, buying memorabilia...just really letting it all soak in. It's been a fun ride. Now having said that I went through something similar with the Mets losing last year....I know it can't compare in terms of magnitude and importance but as a sports fan I know the pain and withdrawal your going through. It's a tough pill to swallow.

not a problem... enjoy it and savor it. Your team and their fans deserve it.

 

[houndirish]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

It's an interesting point. Didn't 12 of their 53 sacks come in one game, and in the 2nd game against Philly, they managed only 3 in their second game against the same team, or about average. Their talent is amont the best in the league, but me thinks they utillized intelligence, (how they got it is irrelevant) to figure out line calls and hit the gaps, because they knew where the coverage was rolling to. If it was the Pats who put this much pressure on to anybody, the question would be aqsked. No, the Giants haven't been caught videotaping, but I'm saying you don't beat up any line in the league to the extent they did the Pats in the SB (after 1 sack in the regular season) and the eagles, without knowing what the line is doing. Am I accusing the Giants of cheating? Not at all. they could have picked the calls up, but it's beyond coincidence to me. Twelve sacks agains one team, and five against one of the best lines in football, and huge disparity in the two games you play. Are they good? Yep, but you look a lot better when you know where the leverage is going.

For a guy who isn't making an accusation, you sure sound like you are! If it makes you feel any better some of the Giants D-Linemen referenced the lessons they learned watching film of the Patriots. One of the adjustments they mentioned was shifting their formation to the right in recognition of the Patriots desire to run to the left side. The Giants made this adjustment after the Maroney TD and the guy was pretty much stifled for the remainder of the game. The Giants beat up on McNabb because Osi Umenyiora was facing a 2nd string Tackle who was left alone to block him one on one. The Eagles inexplicably never changed their protection schemes until it was far too late. I'd suggest taht had a LOT to do with the lofty sack total versus any "intelligence" the Giants may have had. And if you want to attempt to suggest other teams should be accused of this activity I'd suggest you muster some sort of proof. The reason the Patriots got the "Cheater" reputation is because they cheated ... and got caught. That has a tendency to follow you around whether you like it or not.

Going back to the original post .... why does everything have to be "Best ever", "worst ever"? I feel like somebody let Jim Nantz into the room. How can the Patriots loss be considered the worst loss in all of sports? Methinks the 1980 Russian hockey team might have something to say about that. It might've been the worst loss you've ever suffered through. But that doesn't make it the worst ever in the history of the game, much less all of sports. Not even close.

As for the time of the drives. The Giants broke their own record with their initial drive. They held the ball for 9:44 seconds versus the Bills to open the second half of Super Bowl 25. I don't know what their drive prior to the end of the half ended up being but the initial second half drive is still the longest in Super Bowl history that's ended in a touchdown.

As for the Patriots future, I don't seem them flirting with an undefeated season but they can get a lot worse and still be pretty darn good. Randy Moss likely gets the franchise tag if they can't come to some sort of a contract agreement. He'll be a Patriot next season. Even if Samuel walks, are they really losing a lot? Samuel always struck as a guy who was good, not great, but enjoyed elevated status due to the team and scheme he played in. I can see Samuel pulling a Bobby Taylor (landing a fat deal elsewhere and never coming close to living up to it.). The linebackers are old but the division is still horrible. I struggle to see the Patriots "only" winning 10 games. For as much Randy bashing as there is in this thread, I thought the guy was pretty classy in defeat. I was sorta expecting a TO-like diatribe that centered around him not getting the ball enough. Instead Randy was highly complimentary of the Giants and was a stand up guy.

 

[Boston]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

If you read my post I clearly state the Pats were physically dominated. That was the key to the game. I don't understand when people think criticizing coaching moves is taking away from the other team's success or it's being used as an excuse. I see it the other way. Besides physically dominating the Pats the Giants also outcoached them. This is not an excuse rather it's a compliment to the Giants. Coaching is an extremely important part of football and it's another area that the Gman beat the Pats and it played a positive role in the Gmen's vistory. As a Pats fan I can also admit one of the biggest keys to the Pats victory over the Rams was in the coaching department. Yes, they beat them up as well but a key factor in the Pats win was the Martz v. BB matchup. I would wholeheartedly disagree with anyone who thinks that matchup didn't play a big part in that game as I would in this game.

 

[phthalatemagic]

11. Why was Brady under pressure the WHOLE game????? My God - absolutely inexcusable. Bad coaching, bad O-Line play, bad game calling.... The Pats just didn't adjust. I mean, think about this - the Giants knocked Brady on his ### 18 times in addition to the sacks - and still I don't recall seeing one holding penalty on the Pats O-Line. It was obvious the refs weren't throwing flags unless someone drew blood. Yet the Giant D-Line just kept coming, seemingly unabated.

Here's what really bothers me...pretty much every expert in the free world said for the Giants to win they needed to do exactly what they did on Sunday. There was nothing exotic about what they did. Yet, somehow, someway the Pats seemed totally surprised and unprepared for what happened. It's one thing being physically overmatched (which was also the case) but the last thing I would ever guess is that the Patriot coaching staff would contribute so much to their demise.

What is bothering me is that some people think the only way the Pats could have lost is if they did something wrong. How about this for an explanation? The Giants defensive line is really, really good and there is no shame in getting beat by them. They did lead the NFL in sacks y'know.

It's an interesting point. Didn't 12 of their 53 sacks come in one game, and in the 2nd game against Philly, they managed only 3 in their second game against the same team, or about average. Their talent is amont the best in the league, but me thinks they utillized intelligence, (how they got it is irrelevant) to figure out line calls and hit the gaps, because they knew where the coverage was rolling to. If it was the Pats who put this much pressure on to anybody, the question would be aqsked. No, the Giants haven't been caught videotaping, but I'm saying you don't beat up any line in the league to the extent they did the Pats in the SB (after 1 sack in the regular season) and the eagles, without knowing what the line is doing. Am I accusing the Giants of cheating? Not at all. they could have picked the calls up, but it's beyond coincidence to me. Twelve sacks agains one team, and five against one of the best lines in football, and huge disparity in the two games you play. Are they good? Yep, but you look a lot better when you know where the leverage is going.

 

[AB in DC]

I still don't understand why people are fixating on that Samuel play. I went back to the DVR to make sure that my memory wasn't fuzzy, but it's obvious to me that there isn't a single CB in the league who would make that interception.

Frankly, Samuel did well just to get his fingertips on the ball. Get both hands on the ball, gain control, and still land inbounds? He'd have to be Superman.

 

[dominus]

You are asking for a miracle if you really expected Brady to win it with 35 seconds left.

I've seen this before by Manning and others -- 35 seconds is a long time with 3 time outs. Okay, maybe not against a great defense, like the way the Giants D was playing. Is that what you mean by a miracle?To be honest, I fully expected NE to move the ball down the field and at least get a FG. After all, this was a team that scored at will against every team they faced. It was a shock that they didn't. That sack was huge.

If Brady had an arm, he would have hit Moss on one of those two long passes. He wasn't accurate at all. They rolled the pocket to give him time to set up, and he still couldn't make the throw.As the poster mentioned, other QBs have done it.

Sorry man.... but do you have any idea that second to last throw was? If Giants CB Webster didn't get a finger in there at the right time... Moss would have caught it. For Brady to deliver that ball under all that pressure, across the field, all the way down it.... he has an arm bro.

 

[videoguy505]

Moss had a step on both defenders on the 3rd down pass. Even at 70 yards, it was underthrown, and Moss had to slow down. If he had hit Moss in stride he would have had the TD. Sure, asking for 75-80 yards in the air is crazy, but it would have only had to have been 55 yards if he'd been able to hit Moss at the point that Moss had gotten past the defense. Neither defender would have been able to touch it, Moss was well enough past them.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Lots of interesting points here. I agree on most but not all. You say that Tom Brady is over rated. I cant agree with that one. Look at all of the other qbs in the discussion of best ever, Montana, Elway, Unitas, Manning, Favre. It doesnt really matter who you throw in the discussion, they all have their faults. Unitas was before my time, but as for rest, it was clear to me that they all are less than perfect. Montana was replaced by Young (how could the best ever lose his job pre-salary cap), Elway lost 3 superbowls, Manning has struggled more often than not in the post season and Favre is prone to throwing interceptions. I think we need to take a step back and realize that these guys are human. They occasionally make mistakes. Brady has one of the best regular season and post season winning percentages of all time. He has won 3 superbowls rings. What more do you want? He was at his best when the talent around him was less than stellar. If you think he isnt great, try watching some of the qbs in the next tier for a season (McNabb, Bulger, Roethlisberger, Palmer, Brees) they aren't nearly as consistent. They have many more stinkers than Brady. I dont know how many times I have watched a non-patriots game and been struck with just how lucky our team is to have Brady. Without Brady, I dont know that this team has any of its championships. Brady is only 30. I wouldnt be at all surprised if he won another superbowl before he is all said and done.I dont think the Patriots are done by any stretch. They just went 18-1 against one of the toughest schedules in the league. The core of their team is young and signed long term. When I say core, I mean Brady and the offensive and defensive lines. The o-line got abused yesterday, but lets not forget how well they did the rest of the year. Welker is signed long term as is Maroney. If Moss & Stallworth go, so be it. Gaffney did pretty well in the playoffs last year with only Reche Caldwell to "draw" coverage away. Adalius Thomas and Mike Vrabel have several good years left.I think the Patriots need to get much younger at the Line Backer spot and they need to address the Samuel situation and find an upgrade to Hobbs. I think that Merriweather may grow into a good safety. If Morris can be healthy for next year, it will make a big difference to the running game. He really fit their system perfectly. I am not sold on Maroney. I saw him run hard in the playoffs, but he just doesnt seem to provide a consitent effort. They have some holes, but they are manageable. This team is a sack away from being touted as the best team ever. Lets not over-react.

I think you're reaching on the "how can Montana be the best when he was replaced by Steve Young" comment. That is like me saying "how can Brady be considered one of the best when he wasn't even drafted until the 6th round." It sounds ridiculous and just in case you haven't heard, Steve Young is in the Hall of Fame.

Plus one thing to consider with Young is that he had YEARS to learn the SF system, and was successful in a large part because he understood it so well. Plus Montana still played at a high level in KC, so it's not like he was washed up, it was just a business decision to go with the younger guy.

And Joe Cool was also edging into his late 30's and off basically two seasons with an injury to his throwing shoulder. To suggest he was washed up at that point isnt' exactly heresy. I think Joe Montana is a better QB than Tom Brady, but not NOW necessarily. Age is part of attrition.

 

[Itchy Amos]

Lots of interesting points here. I agree on most but not all. You say that Tom Brady is over rated. I cant agree with that one. Look at all of the other qbs in the discussion of best ever, Montana, Elway, Unitas, Manning, Favre. It doesnt really matter who you throw in the discussion, they all have their faults. Unitas was before my time, but as for rest, it was clear to me that they all are less than perfect. Montana was replaced by Young (how could the best ever lose his job pre-salary cap), Elway lost 3 superbowls, Manning has struggled more often than not in the post season and Favre is prone to throwing interceptions. I think we need to take a step back and realize that these guys are human. They occasionally make mistakes. Brady has one of the best regular season and post season winning percentages of all time. He has won 3 superbowls rings. What more do you want? He was at his best when the talent around him was less than stellar. If you think he isnt great, try watching some of the qbs in the next tier for a season (McNabb, Bulger, Roethlisberger, Palmer, Brees) they aren't nearly as consistent. They have many more stinkers than Brady. I dont know how many times I have watched a non-patriots game and been struck with just how lucky our team is to have Brady. Without Brady, I dont know that this team has any of its championships. Brady is only 30. I wouldnt be at all surprised if he won another superbowl before he is all said and done.I dont think the Patriots are done by any stretch. They just went 18-1 against one of the toughest schedules in the league. The core of their team is young and signed long term. When I say core, I mean Brady and the offensive and defensive lines. The o-line got abused yesterday, but lets not forget how well they did the rest of the year. Welker is signed long term as is Maroney. If Moss & Stallworth go, so be it. Gaffney did pretty well in the playoffs last year with only Reche Caldwell to "draw" coverage away. Adalius Thomas and Mike Vrabel have several good years left.I think the Patriots need to get much younger at the Line Backer spot and they need to address the Samuel situation and find an upgrade to Hobbs. I think that Merriweather may grow into a good safety. If Morris can be healthy for next year, it will make a big difference to the running game. He really fit their system perfectly. I am not sold on Maroney. I saw him run hard in the playoffs, but he just doesnt seem to provide a consitent effort. They have some holes, but they are manageable. This team is a sack away from being touted as the best team ever. Lets not over-react.

I think you're reaching on the "how can Montana be the best when he was replaced by Steve Young" comment. That is like me saying "how can Brady be considered one of the best when he wasn't even drafted until the 6th round." It sounds ridiculous and just in case you haven't heard, Steve Young is in the Hall of Fame.

Plus one thing to consider with Young is that he had YEARS to learn the SF system, and was successful in a large part because he understood it so well. Plus Montana still played at a high level in KC, so it's not like he was washed up, it was just a business decision to go with the younger guy.

And Joe Cool was also edging into his late 30's and off basically two seasons with an injury to his throwing shoulder. To suggest he was washed up at that point isnt' exactly heresy. I think Joe Montana is a better QB than Tom Brady, but not NOW necessarily. Age is part of attrition.

Sure, I concede that my particular argument about Montana may not have perfectly supported my argument, but I still maintain that my general premise was correct. I was trying to say that no quarterback is without fault or occasional failure. How about this instead: Montana was partly responsible for seven playoff losses. The OP was of the opinion that Tom Brady was over-rated. All that I am saying is that even with his recent playoff "struggles", he is still comparable with some of the all time greats. Nobody wins them all, or at least nobody has yet.

 

[switz]

You are asking for a miracle if you really expected Brady to win it with 35 seconds left.

I've seen this before by Manning and others -- 35 seconds is a long time with 3 time outs. Okay, maybe not against a great defense, like the way the Giants D was playing. Is that what you mean by a miracle?To be honest, I fully expected NE to move the ball down the field and at least get a FG. After all, this was a team that scored at will against every team they faced. It was a shock that they didn't. That sack was huge.

If Brady had an arm, he would have hit Moss on one of those two long passes. He wasn't accurate at all. They rolled the pocket to give him time to set up, and he still couldn't make the throw.As the poster mentioned, other QBs have done it.

Sorry man.... but do you have any idea that second to last throw was? If Giants CB Webster didn't get a finger in there at the right time... Moss would have caught it. For Brady to deliver that ball under all that pressure, across the field, all the way down it.... he has an arm bro.

They rolled the pocket to the left, to give Brady room to plant, he was able to step up to the line, plant, and heave it as far as he could. It was about 50-55 yards in the air, NOT a terribly long throw for most NFL QBs who throw near 70 yards in the air. It was simply not thrown long enough, and Brady had a clear throw, and time to plant his feet. Moss slowed for the ball, and the DBs caught up, he was running past them, but the ball was underthrown.

 

[TD Ryan]

If you read my post I clearly state the Pats were physically dominated. That was the key to the game.

I don't think there are many (any?) Pats fans that believe otherwise.I think this is what we forget too easily as football fans:The NFL is much more about who is going to line up and simply smash the other team into defeat.I've heard ex-players talk about how little effect the gameplans, star players, luck, emotion, momentum,etc really have. When it's all said and done it's about physically dominating the guy on the other side of the line and doing it so thoroughly that you demoralize him, you make him doubt himself in addition to inflicting physical damage on him. There's nothing worse than getting your ### handed to you on every play and knowing that there isn't a damn thing you can do about it on the next one.We've seen NE play with this physical dominance in the past.We saw the NYG play with it on Sunday.It's why I laugh when the boards have discussions about who's cheap, or mean, or dirty out there... I don't think you fully understand how much of a brawl it is for those players or how tough and barbaric you have to be to survive on that field.

 

[Chaka]

Moss had a step on both defenders on the 3rd down pass. Even at 70 yards, it was underthrown, and Moss had to slow down. If he had hit Moss in stride he would have had the TD. Sure, asking for 75-80 yards in the air is crazy, but it would have only had to have been 55 yards if he'd been able to hit Moss at the point that Moss had gotten past the defense. Neither defender would have been able to touch it, Moss was well enough past them.

Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

 

[The foo]

Moss had a step on both defenders on the 3rd down pass. Even at 70 yards, it was underthrown, and Moss had to slow down. If he had hit Moss in stride he would have had the TD. Sure, asking for 75-80 yards in the air is crazy, but it would have only had to have been 55 yards if he'd been able to hit Moss at the point that Moss had gotten past the defense. Neither defender would have been able to touch it, Moss was well enough past them.

i agree that play was a lot closer to going to house that many people realize.

 

[switz]

Moss had a step on both defenders on the 3rd down pass. Even at 70 yards, it was underthrown, and Moss had to slow down. If he had hit Moss in stride he would have had the TD. Sure, asking for 75-80 yards in the air is crazy, but it would have only had to have been 55 yards if he'd been able to hit Moss at the point that Moss had gotten past the defense. Neither defender would have been able to touch it, Moss was well enough past them.

i agree that play was a lot closer to going to house that many people realize.

Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

I think we all agree that could have been a TD, but that the QB couldn't throw it far enough...

 

[Chaka]

Moss had a step on both defenders on the 3rd down pass. Even at 70 yards, it was underthrown, and Moss had to slow down. If he had hit Moss in stride he would have had the TD. Sure, asking for 75-80 yards in the air is crazy, but it would have only had to have been 55 yards if he'd been able to hit Moss at the point that Moss had gotten past the defense. Neither defender would have been able to touch it, Moss was well enough past them.

i agree that play was a lot closer to going to house that many people realize.

Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

I think we all agree that could have been a TD, but that the QB couldn't throw it far enough...

I think any play could be a touchdown if the pieces fall into place. That play was far less pivotal than choosing to forgo a makeable field goal on 4th & 13. Who thinks they have a legitimate play for 4th & 13?There were four passes where I thought Brady completely missed an open receiver and the prayer to Moss was not one of them.

 

[switz]

Moss had a step on both defenders on the 3rd down pass. Even at 70 yards, it was underthrown, and Moss had to slow down. If he had hit Moss in stride he would have had the TD. Sure, asking for 75-80 yards in the air is crazy, but it would have only had to have been 55 yards if he'd been able to hit Moss at the point that Moss had gotten past the defense. Neither defender would have been able to touch it, Moss was well enough past them.

i agree that play was a lot closer to going to house that many people realize.

Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

I think we all agree that could have been a TD, but that the QB couldn't throw it far enough...

I think any play could be a touchdown if the pieces fall into place. That play was far less pivotal than choosing to forgo a makeable field goal on 4th & 13. Who thinks they have a legitimate play for 4th & 13?There were four passes where I thought Brady completely missed an open receiver and the prayer to Moss was not one of them.

Agree on all accounts...

 

[nerangers]

Moss had a step on both defenders on the 3rd down pass. Even at 70 yards, it was underthrown, and Moss had to slow down. If he had hit Moss in stride he would have had the TD. Sure, asking for 75-80 yards in the air is crazy, but it would have only had to have been 55 yards if he'd been able to hit Moss at the point that Moss had gotten past the defense. Neither defender would have been able to touch it, Moss was well enough past them.

i agree that play was a lot closer to going to house that many people realize.

Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

I think we all agree that could have been a TD, but that the QB couldn't throw it far enough...

I think any play could be a touchdown if the pieces fall into place. That play was far less pivotal than choosing to forgo a makeable field goal on 4th & 13. Who thinks they have a legitimate play for 4th & 13?There were four passes where I thought Brady completely missed an open receiver and the prayer to Moss was not one of them.

Agree on all accounts...

Couldn't plant the foot due to the ankle? That would cause some of those balls to soar...