El Floppo
Footballguy
it is.
i thought the season finale was next week.
unless they've released it early or thecatch has special upper elite privileges.
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Asimov's Foundation series on AppleTV- ** 1st Season is in the books! pun/no-pun (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter El Floppo
- Start date
unless they've released it early or thecatch has special upper elite privileges.
Nope, my bad. I thought I read episode 9 was the finale, and they could have gotten away with ending it there. Cool, I’m excited for another one next week.
El Floppo
Footballguy
the concept, or the actual emperors?
I do have a question about them for those that know... If there's always a don, day and dusk... what happens to the ones in the middle of those states? teenager, middle age, etc. How many of these are there? Do only those three at those specific ages get to be public, with the others just biding their time? Or are there only 3 at a given time?
El Floppo
Footballguy
Ep 9 was a bit more action and I'm enjoying the show fine (and I can't remember the book(s)- and I think I may have only read one or two). but I can't help but feeling it's not much different than a recent Star Trek Discovery season tbh. not in a bad way- but not in a "wow, great tv" way either.
El Floppo
Footballguy
I have not read the books, but I think the intent is 3 at all times, plus the spares hanging out in the fish bowls.
Don - always youngest, and learning from Day and Dusk
Day - always the big cheese in charge
Dusk - elder advisor to Day
I would assume something like 25-year cycles.
El Floppo
Footballguy
So 3 in person. But if the others are on ice/fishbowl, how are they developing knowledge and ability? They'd have to be out and about learning in between...no? So there'd be a campus full of Cleons at varying ages...with only 3 public facing?
Looked like they were hooked up to the nanobot machine - so essentially absorbing whatever the “real” clone was learning.
Redwes25
Footballguy
The concept generally - basically why do we need this random clone thing thrown in there that isn't from the books. Part of the chaos in the books was lack of stability on the throne but here you have some stability.
As to your second question, I have actually moved pretty fast on this one and do like it (through episode 6). I thought the third epsode covered it well on what they were doing with them. Basically, seems like they have 3 at all times and when the Dusk gets old they basically kill him off at the same time the new baby clone is born. Imagine they have a bunch of leftover genetic material available that they use to make the new clone. Though it seems like at least with the new dawn the cloning process isn't perfect.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
Redwes25
Footballguy
I thought only 3 at a given time. They have shown dawn at several different ages at this point (baby, kid and like in his teens/twenties). Think similar for Dusk has been shown. This is through episode 6,
El Floppo
Footballguy
The others are on ice/tanked, like Sinn said?
I feel like we've seen a little kid version, the college age, the middle age and the old..plus a dying version. Which is 4+...and it's what happens to them between those ages...or per Sinn, those are the only ages that get pulled out of their tanks for use.
Sorry..I'm having a hard time explaining this well.
Redwes25
Footballguy
We also saw the baby when the dying version one got euthanized. So think we have seen six (baby, kid version, college age, middle age, old guy and old dying guy). My thought is that only three are alive at a time. Also, think they have 4 actors for the roles. Also, there is that scene where the middle aged guy describes a conversation he had with the old guy when he was the kid and the current old guy was actually the middle aged guy.
Jesus that last sentence made my head hurt -
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El Floppo
Footballguy
helloexactly!We also saw the baby when the dying version one got euthanized. So think we have seen six (baby, kid version, college age, middle age, old guy and old dying guy). My thought is that only three are alive at a time. Also, there is that scene where the middle aged guy describes a conversation he had with the old guy when he was a kid and the current old guy was actually the middle aged guy.
Jesus that last sentence made my head hurt -
we've seen a baby... does it get pulled out of the tank for a ceremonial hot second and then put back in until it's Don? If we had just about to die geriatric Dusk- is there a slightly younger version of that Dusk that acts as the ceremonial aid to Day out and about at the same time? Or are there just a hundred of these guys each a year apart hanging out in the complex, playing pinochle, schtupping landscapers and only getting to be on stage when they're between certain ages?
I am thinking it’s a 25-year cycle - or thereabouts.
1 Don from 0-25
1 Day from 26-50
1 Dusk from 51-75
The story has gone through a few decades, because the original Don is now Day, and the original Dusk is now disintegrated.
Broken Don mentioned the spare Cleons are ready if there is a malfunction, and they we’re definitely hooked up to something that allowed them to upload “live” Cleon memories.
(side note - I don’t think Day will replace broken Don when he returns. I think he is still spooked by having no soul…)
Redwes25
Footballguy
I am convinced there are only 3 alive at a time (or a brief moment with 4) when the baby is born and the old guy is killed. There is also that dinner/spaceflight scene where it is middle aged guy, old guy and old dying guy together. Imagine there is a point in history when there is baby, middle aged guy and old guy. So like the day after that death of the old guy.
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Don is a phase, any pre-Day Cleon is Don
25ish years from baby, until Dusk is disintegrated, and then Day becomes Dusk, and Don becomes Day.
Redwes25
Footballguy
Yeah, there is a scene where Dawn shows his girlfriend an identical clone of the same age in a tank.
I was left with the impression that the clones in the tank continue to age. So there are (at least) two Dawns; one gets pulled out to live, and then you have the other(s) as backup. If a replacement is needed, the backups download the lived experience of the primary version they are replacing and there's a seamless transition.
El Floppo
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
Redwes25
Footballguy
Maelstrom
Footballguy
Folks, it's "Dawn" not "Don" for the youngest. There are only ever 3 Empires in play at any given time. Dawn, Day and Dusk. When Dusk dies, they "birth" a new Dawn, the existing Dawn becomes Day and the existing Day becomes Dusk. As for the clones in tanks, when a new Dawn is birthed, they have at least 1 backup "tanked" at the same time. All the clones in tanks age at the same rate as the ones "in the world" and there is some way they "learn" via nano-bot feed (that wasn't explained well). They only come out of the tank if something happens to the one of the same age as the tanked clone. Hopefully that answers some of the questions (at least, as I understand it).
One unanswered question I have is what happens if a clone is used - can they recreate a "tanked" clone at a certain age or is there only a single backup for each age? Or do they just have multiple at each age? Or do they have the one but have to adjust the cycle if that one is "used"?
Not sure it's vital to know, but inquiring minds. And obviously (per the finale) there are issues now with all of the clones, including potentially Day, maybe even Dusk? And the original material maybe? Kinda hoping that leads to the end of "Empire" - I get why they went that way for this season, but hoping that as the show progresses, it will be less necessary as the collapse continues, to have continuity for the Emperor role.
I thought the last episode was a bit too much "explanatory dialogue". I personally think it's pretty obvious to book readers who Gaal is, and not sure they needed to bring that in during the first season. And not really a fan of Hardin going to her. But I also get that allows them to maintain some of the same actors into season 2.
Here's my underlying thinking though - the Foundation book is told in a series of vignettes over like 1000 years. I do wonder if, rather than finding ways to maintain the same actors, viewers would have accepted new actors every season (assuming they are looking at 1-2 crisis per season) or even mid-season or if they just wouldn't accept that and get too confused. Especially if that is somehow explained via transitional episodes with some way of showing the passage of time between 1 crisis and another. I guess this is why it's been so long trying to get this filmed at all.
For the season, I enjoyed it. But I would probably only recommend it to select folks. I'd say "I enjoyed it" but accept that not everyone will.
One unanswered question I have is what happens if a clone is used - can they recreate a "tanked" clone at a certain age or is there only a single backup for each age? Or do they just have multiple at each age? Or do they have the one but have to adjust the cycle if that one is "used"?
Not sure it's vital to know, but inquiring minds. And obviously (per the finale) there are issues now with all of the clones, including potentially Day, maybe even Dusk? And the original material maybe? Kinda hoping that leads to the end of "Empire" - I get why they went that way for this season, but hoping that as the show progresses, it will be less necessary as the collapse continues, to have continuity for the Emperor role.
I thought the last episode was a bit too much "explanatory dialogue". I personally think it's pretty obvious to book readers who Gaal is, and not sure they needed to bring that in during the first season. And not really a fan of Hardin going to her. But I also get that allows them to maintain some of the same actors into season 2.
Here's my underlying thinking though - the Foundation book is told in a series of vignettes over like 1000 years. I do wonder if, rather than finding ways to maintain the same actors, viewers would have accepted new actors every season (assuming they are looking at 1-2 crisis per season) or even mid-season or if they just wouldn't accept that and get too confused. Especially if that is somehow explained via transitional episodes with some way of showing the passage of time between 1 crisis and another. I guess this is why it's been so long trying to get this filmed at all.
For the season, I enjoyed it. But I would probably only recommend it to select folks. I'd say "I enjoyed it" but accept that not everyone will.
Redwes25
Footballguy
They should have ended the season after 9 episodes. This was a bit too much of wrap/dialogue fest after what had been a couple of really strong episodes.
The empire story continues to be the most entertaining and really wonder where that piece of it goes.
The empire story continues to be the most entertaining and really wonder where that piece of it goes.
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One of the challenges for season 2: it seems they jumped 100+ years at the very end there. That should make the empire story done, as none of the current Cleons should be alive in 100 years.
Redwes25
Footballguy
Yeah, but will they still be some form of clone? I imagine that they will be and it is another way to have familar faces in front of the camera.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Last episode certainly clarified Don, Day and Dust- I was thankful not to have to review the third episode for answers. Corrupted DNA is an interesting turn- it'll be interesting to see where that ends up in S2 and what exactly happened to the android lady.
The literal Deus ex Machina with [jazz hands] math [/jazz hands] jumping out to provide explanation has already worn itself out as a plot device...regardless of how the books played out and how much I enjoy the actor. Hopefully that part is done.
I liked the season- didn't love. Felt the pacing and structure of story telling was a bit off...didn't work as well as it might have. Beautifully filmed though and lots of decent story to sift through. Looking forward to S2.
Couple of goofy quibbles.
- the live in tents and double wide looking trailer housing....but they're somehow making new space ships.
- 170 years after she said her world was going to be wiped out by storms, rising tides etc...her wood house is basically untouched right where she left it?
The literal Deus ex Machina with [jazz hands] math [/jazz hands] jumping out to provide explanation has already worn itself out as a plot device...regardless of how the books played out and how much I enjoy the actor. Hopefully that part is done.
I liked the season- didn't love. Felt the pacing and structure of story telling was a bit off...didn't work as well as it might have. Beautifully filmed though and lots of decent story to sift through. Looking forward to S2.
Couple of goofy quibbles.
- the live in tents and double wide looking trailer housing....but they're somehow making new space ships.
- 170 years after she said her world was going to be wiped out by storms, rising tides etc...her wood house is basically untouched right where she left it?
El Floppo
Footballguy
It was in "ruins".I thought her house/village was basically underwater, and uninhabitable.
I'm just saying- 170 years after she used her math to decide the planet was doomed, her wood house was essentially still sitting there.
Not a giant deal...and useful for telling the story...but goofy.
The fact that we didn’t get any payoff for what appeared to be a imminent Day v. Dusk showdown there (and instead jumped a century ahead) was one of the main things I found frustrating about the finale.
Redwes25
Footballguy
Ok, I am stealing this Don Day and Dust.
My biggest quibble is how gosh darn long can she hold her breath. She dove down 100 meters and is doing random turns through a space ship. At least give her a breathing thingy. Come-on she has a damn boat that grows from a canister conveniently in her tiny pod space ship. Why not throw in some underwater gear.
El Floppo
Footballguy
They did show her doing lots of underwater breathing counting math during the series...that was actually something that didn't bother me at the end.Ok, I am stealing this Don Day and Dust.
My biggest quibble is how gosh darn long can she hold her breath. She dove down 100 meters and is doing random turns through a space ship. At least give her a breathing thingy. Come-on she has a damn boat that grows from a canister conveniently in her tiny pod space ship. Why not throw in some underwater gear.
I did expect her 170 year old capsule to be better than a plastic canoe for handling the seas since...well...it handles space for 170 years.
foxco
Footballguy
Thought that was hilarious. What if she landed 1,000 miles from anywhere? They could cut to her in season 2 every once in a while... still rowing...
Liked it overall. I read all the books, including the prequels and sequels, but it's been decades. Some miscellaneous thoughts, in no particular order...
- Enjoyed the Don, Day, Dusk storyline, even though it's not in the books.
- Didn't really love the vault or Hari's post-death appearances, although I guess they're not awful. Also, there was no explanation for how Gail sent subliminal messages across time and space to Salvor. During part of that period, Gail would have been in stasis.
- How did Salvor, the Huntress, and others survive the Invictus jump? They made quite a big deal in other scenes that humans needed to be in semi-stasis to survive a jump.
- Gail and Salvor ending up on Sinnax 100+ years later is a bit off. For one, how will they get off the planet? The boosters on Gail's ship burned up in the atmosphere and the rest of the ship sunk. Salvor's ship?
- I wonder what they figure percentage of viewers who have read the books is?
- Cinematography was fantastic.
- I watched with a friend who had not read the books. Kind of felt like having read was both a blessing and a curse. Sometimes I picked up on things that she didn't, while other times I was annoyed by certain departures. One in particular bothered me; Demerzel killing a human. While it didn't appear in the original Foundation trilogy, the three laws of robotics are pretty much the most important Asimov canon there is.
I thought it was decent but I had already heard all the bad reviews so I think I had very low expectations. I still don’t get why they named the baby Don.
I think the part I loved the best was the girl and bad DNA Don and how she basically catfished him but Dusk was watching the whole time. Loved Day saying he’d wipe everyone she ever knew out and then basically keep her alive to have no real life. Just vicious.
I think the part I loved the best was the girl and bad DNA Don and how she basically catfished him but Dusk was watching the whole time. Loved Day saying he’d wipe everyone she ever knew out and then basically keep her alive to have no real life. Just vicious.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
Constantly changing the cast would make it difficult to get a notable "brand name" actor and you need at least a few to get any kind of practical financing for these kind of projects. I don't think Wheel Of Time gets made without Rosamund Pike and she's not even an A list type actor. You'd have to have an iconic franchise like Star Wars to get name brand actors to jump through hoops to be part of the production.
This show could have easily fixed a most of it's issues with three simple changes
1) Find some storytelling device, even a cheap one, to have Jared Harris in every single episode from the Terminus side of things. He's an incredible actor and just having him float in and out of a few episodes doesn't help to entrench a long term audience.
2) Switch Terminus to a large space station platform instead of a planet. I recognize that starts to violate canon, but that would had made so much of the bizarre Stargate Atlantis look of Terminus, which was still likely insanely expensive to set design and build anyway, go away.
3) Have at least one episode near the end where Lee Pace and Jared Harris can square off in a game of wits. Let your two best actors chew some scenery together.
I recognize there is some value in getting no name / not mainstream recognized actors but I would have switched either Gaal Dornick or Salvor Hardin into an Asian female role. Two light skinned African American actresses are just going to be too easy for an already confused new audience to keep track of and keep separated when you have a weekly release format. Before anyone goes woke on me, one of the reason the Voltron lions are all different colors is (not just for merchandising) because kids have a hard time separating characters and "color coding" them simplifies forming distinctions between identities on screen.
There are only two real choices for TV shows
1) Simple storyline but complex characters
or
2) Complex storyline and simplistic characters
Foundation chose the 2nd path. Certainly adherence to elements of the source material and pressure to keep established book fans happy raise some complications. But the 2nd path almost always fails. Occasionally you'll get a show that goes completely off the rails like The Walking Dead where Robert Kirkman made sure there was Zero storyline and irritating simplistic characters but usually shows fall into one of two main categories.
None of the Foundation characters outside of Brother Dusk can be called remotely complex. And that might just be the actor, Terrence Mann, lifting the show on his back the way Charles Dance did for Game Of Thrones in his last season..
Maelstrom
Footballguy
Yah, I realized this, and it makes me sad. If the story is right and the actors they do get are good, it should be doable and the finance folks should get on board. I know though they don't like to gamble on unknowns and don't like to mess with "what works" (i.e. actor consistency).
El Floppo
Footballguy
I would have loved more of him. but tbh, I really didn't like how they used him as a literal ghost in the machine/deus-ex-machina to push plot or explanation forward.
In a similar vein, I keep waiting for Sam Neill to show up again in the other Apple show, Invasion. awol/dead since Ep 1, which is odd as the biggest actor in the cast.
Maelstrom
Footballguy
I wish they had made him unaware of the people around him. I get that it modernizes it for our time over the book, but part of the charm in the book is that it's literally a recording and he doesn't know if anyone is there or not, and he still gets it "right" (or close enough).
GordonGekko
Footballguy
Halo 4: XX Forward XX Unto XX Dawn | Action XX Film | Full XX Length | Sci-Fi | XX English
UNSC Cadet Thomas Lasky must conquer his inner fears and join forces with super-soldier John-117 to take down a massive faction of the Covenant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTGqNRhm_qQ
******
Maelstrom,
Here is a feature length film that I think would interest you regarding what you are talking about in terms of a "right story" despite no star power. I'm not too familiar with the Halo series. But I watched this with my godson years ago and he was a huge Halo fan. ( Sadly I'm a geriatric who sees System Shock as the height of gaming innovation)
It's not a core Halo story ( as was explained to me) but a really interesting side story with some standard tropes but with some pretty thoughtful and introspective themes.
I would think that Foundation would have been better off with making small stories like this model, then try to build in a ramp in audience for a full blown main series.
The core Foundation story is just too complex. A good non sci-fi example is Last Of The Mohicans and a decent sci-fi example is Children Of Men. LOTM is close to incomprehensible by Fenimore Cooper's original source material. Michael Mann doesn't get enough credit for processing that down into something that really resonates. COM had to go some serious changes to make it functional for the restrictions of a movie's running time and to get the core themes accessible to a brand new audience.
Something to consider is that Hilary Swank was interviewed after her 2nd Oscar and said no one wanted to finance Million Dollar Baby. For years and years. Even with Eastwood coming off Unforgiven and all that clout, no one wanted to risk money on a boxing movie starring a woman.
Let me know if you watch Forward Unto Dawn and if fits more into the kind of model I think you are talking about.
drunken slob
Footballguy
December 4, 2021 was the last post in this thread.
Bumping, because there was a Season 2. I haven't watched, if that's the case.
You know what stinks?
I had no problem with the Casting, Filming, SFX and most of the other story presentation with Season 1.
There were aspects that I didn't agree with, no need to crap on people though.
Didn't see a single advertisement for the release.
Has anybody watched the latest available episodes, if that's the case?
Season 1 was so disappoingting that I haven't even thought about trying to watch Season 2.
Check in if you think it's worth the time. Thanks
Bumping, because there was a Season 2. I haven't watched, if that's the case.
You know what stinks?
I had no problem with the Casting, Filming, SFX and most of the other story presentation with Season 1.
There were aspects that I didn't agree with, no need to crap on people though.
Didn't see a single advertisement for the release.
Has anybody watched the latest available episodes, if that's the case?
Season 1 was so disappoingting that I haven't even thought about trying to watch Season 2.
Check in if you think it's worth the time. Thanks
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