Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Austin Collie needs to shut it down (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter cobalt_27
- Start date
certificate
Footballguy
I don't know much about Jim Caldwell, but I'm assuming he's not a neurologist. If I were him, I'd let the neurologists make the decision before I weighed in with my opinion.
If the brain-scientists tell him that he needs to shut it down, he needs to shut it down. If not, then he probably doesn't.
Why is this even a question? Are you a neurologist? Have you performed neurological tests on Austin Collie? What are you basing this opinion on, gut feeling? You're probably right, but I don't see what Caldwell has to do with this, so long as he takes the advice of the experts.
If the brain-scientists tell him that he needs to shut it down, he needs to shut it down. If not, then he probably doesn't.
Why is this even a question? Are you a neurologist? Have you performed neurological tests on Austin Collie? What are you basing this opinion on, gut feeling? You're probably right, but I don't see what Caldwell has to do with this, so long as he takes the advice of the experts.
Last edited by a moderator:
bonesman
Footballguy
He walked off the field under his own power and came out for the 2nd half and was hanging out on the bench. Seemed fairly lucid.
When I saw the play I figured it was probably a career ender w/ his history, but now I wouldn't be too surprised if he was just questionable this week w/ a 30% chance of playing on Sunday.
When I saw the play I figured it was probably a career ender w/ his history, but now I wouldn't be too surprised if he was just questionable this week w/ a 30% chance of playing on Sunday.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
I am a neuropsychologist. I am the guy that neurologist send their patients to for cognitive evaluations. that being said, Collie has had 3 serious brain injuries in the last 3 months. At some point it is worth questioning the return to play decisions made by this medical staff. Caldwell is in a position to do just that.
ninerfanatic492000
Footballguy
to be honest i'd think if Collie suffers one more thru the end of the playoffs he'd certainly need to think of calling it a career or taking a full year off. i may be wrong with what i'm recalling, but i thought i remember he had a concussion or 2 at BYU as well. i definitely don't want to hear another Merril Hoge type story happening to Austin
The_Man
Footballguy
I don't think that was the answer certificate was expecting.Here's the thing -- Collie is unbelievably important to the Colts' offense, which is why they're going to try to put him out there even if it's hazardous to his health. Manning is incredible at isolating mismatches and taking advantage of them - when Dallas Clark and Collie are healthy, those guys are matched up on LBs, or a Safety, or a team's third and fourth best CB. If those defenders aren't given help, Manning burns them - if they are given double coverage help, then he goes to either Wayne or Garcon, whichever is single-covered.
Now Clark is gone and Tamme hasn't done much since teams got a little film on him. Same for Blair White replacing Collie in the slot. I was thinking about this last night and looked at the numbers this morning. The Colts are 3-3 without Collie. Manning's QB rating is 100.4 in games that he plays and 81.2 when he doesn't. Before Collie was hurt vs. Jax, Manning hit him for 90 yards and 2 TDs in less than a half. After he went out, Manning went 7 of 14 for 33 yards through the end of the third quarter.
Look at Manning's QB ratings during that stretch where Collie was hurt:
Philly: 67.0 (Collie hurt early in the game)
Cincy: 69.8
New England: 96.3 (Collie played)
San Diego: 59.8
Dallas: 75.4
Tenn: 118.6 (only good game without Collie)
This week's Oakland game will be a huge example of Collie's impact. Without him, Asomugha (if healthy) can take away Garcon, the Raiders can double Wayne, and Manning is going to struggle to find anyone to throw to. With him, Manning can work the middle of the field, then go deep to Wayne if/when the Raiders give help on Collie. To me, he is one of the most important players in the NFL down the stretch -- if he can play, the Colts will win the South and probably play Baltimore in the 4-5 Wild Card Round game. The Colts own the Ravens and would be favored to advance to the Divisional Round. If he can't play, I think the Colts lose at least once and the Jags come back to win the division.
duaneok66
Footballguy
a) the Colts don't need Collie to defeat the Raiders and the Titans
b) Collie is probably done for the year . . .
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Yup. I would hope.A couple of points:duaneok66 said:
1. Collie now has had 3 on-field LOCs in the last 7-8 weeks. I don't care at this point whether his history of prior concussions make him more vulnerable to future concussions, or whether he simply has some intrinsic vulnerability to being concussed or not. It's an important question, academically, but in his personal case it doesn't matter. Three major head injuries this season? He should be shut down.
2. The "evaluations" the NFL employs are useful but shouldn't be the end-all/be-all in the return-to-play decisions. I assume they are using the computer-based ImPACT , which I became familiar with about 7 years ago when I was testing college athletes. It's a brief evaluation, and imo, it is not sensitive enough to detect subtle changes in cognitive functioning. Cases like Collie should be referred for more complete outpatient evaluations. I don't know if this is how the Colts proceed here, but my hunch is probably not.
3. Even if he were to "pass" the most rigorous outpatient cognitive evaluation, it still should concern any doctor that the behavioral data (his cog test scores) are not precisely mapping onto the physiology of what has happened now 3 times. We still do not know enough about the time frame for second impact syndrome (i.e., how much time is necessary for each individual and with each concussion) for the brain to heal. Given that it often can take weeks for swelling to resolve and the brain to be fully restored (presumably) to its baseline functioning, the fact that we are talking about 3 LOCs in 8 weeks, you can do the math.
4. If I were involved in a case like Collie's, we would not be having a discussion about playing this year. That would be a moot point. I would shut him down. The larger question is his career choice. Think of it as like having a shoulder injury where, you get it fixed, repaired, whatever...and it sort of gets back to functioning again, but it's never quite the same as it was pre-injury. The big difference, of course, is this is not his shoulder--it's his brain. And, the fact that he has now had multiple significant injuries within such a short period of time suggests that he is (for whatever reason/s) vulnerable to more damage. That has to be factored in, long-term.
I know the NFL is making waves about making player safety a priority. However, if he is allowed to play again this year, then they clearly are not being serious about it, and it's just window dressing.
footballnerd
Footballguy
fixed
Ping Pong
Footballguy
Because multiply concussed players should be allowed to do whatever they want, right? There are all kinds of cases of players wanting to play when it's not at all safe for them. Off the top of my head, I remember video of Jason Witten and Hines Ward fighting to get back into the games in which they were concussed, but luckily for them, the medical and coaching staff refused. While I'm not saying Collie has no personal responsibility, Caldwell and the rest of that coaching staff also have an obligation to help preserve Collie's health, despite his own wishes.
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
Let him play and if he gets #4 shut him down.....but I need him this week. Collies seemed OK last week after he cleared the cobwebs out, just got his bell rung a little.
Last edited by a moderator:
cobalt_27
Footballguy
He sustained loss of consciousness and local paralysis. That's a little more than just getting his bell rung a little.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Let him play because your FF team needs him?I don't even know where to start with this.
Trizzler
Footballguy
You know what, my fantasy team could use some veteran leadership in this championship week. Gosh darnit Leslie Frazier, GET BRETT FAVRE OUT THERE AND LEAD ME TO VICTORY!!!
Sweet Love
IBL Representative
I find it funny people are still fighting you on this, cobalt. I think people lose sight of the "efforts" the NFL is making on concussions. It kind of reminds me of the cigarette companies that do research to find the side effects of smoking. Sure, they are being pressured into the research, and they are uncovering data. problem is, if they do "too good of a job" they render themselves at risk for putting the product out. Same goes with the NFL; they may say that they have the players' best interests in mind (and they may really do), but what happens if all the research leads to a conclusion that 20% of the people that play 3+ years in the NFL will end up with life-long brain damage...not good and their "product" could be at risk too.Look at a guy like Wayne Chrebet. He got his concussions over time, but i don't think 3 in 3 months. He walked away from the game in what seemed to be the right age, point in his career, etc. He now has issues because of it and it gets swept under the table because he left as a 33 year-old and not a 23 year-old. These guys want to play, and most NEED to play in order to have a good life into their 70s financially, but it does not mean they should play.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Really
right here. Hit the nail on the head.Someone has to step in and tell Collie enough is enough for now. If it screws the Colts or people's fantasy teams, too bad. The NFL, the team doctors, the team management--somebody--has to take some authority here to not make the same mistake with Collie for a 3rd time and put him back in too soon.
Chaka
Footballguy
I'm not. He's an adult, if the doctors clear him to play then why shouldn't he be allowed to play?
cobalt_27
Footballguy
The fact that he's an adult is irrelevant. But, the question about the doctors clearance is a good one.I think the hope here is that the league doctors do not allow him to return to play for the reasons described above. Even if he is cleared to play, that mostly means that he passed some cognitive tests. It doesn't mean that he is well.
Last edited by a moderator:
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
Local paralysis is nothing more than a little stinger from a nerve being pinched. That goes away. Collies feeling came back in a matter of minutes.
Last edited by a moderator:
this. lol at blaming caldwell. why would you expect him to be arrogant enough to overrule trained medical professionals?
It sounds like the better aprt of reason is to put Collie on IR and use the spot to pick up some defense.
LINK: Collie to go on IR
LINK: Collie to go on IR
It was the right thing to do medically. Plus, the negative PR against everyone in the NFL involved in this decision, in the event of yet another concussion, would've been huge.
Chaka
Footballguy
The fact that he is an adult is entirely relevant. I am sure you would be on board with that as it relates to many other risks people take in their lives every day. Smoking, drinking, driving too fast (or in bad weather) literally hundreds and thousands of dangerous decisions that adults make every single day.Professional football is a dangerous sport. Remove concussions from the equation and it's still a dangerous sport. Professional football players are well aware of the potential risks of playing football and they choose to play anyway.
If he's not healthy then, fine, don't let him play but if Collie is cleared to play and he wants to play then let him play. He's an adult and he can make his own decisions and live with the consequences.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Yeah, we could go around in circles with this one. I'm arguing more with the flawed process of how they go about making return-to-play decisions. They screwed up twice with Collie in as many months. At least they figured it out this go around and shut him down.Thank god.
