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although I think Bettis > CrockettI can see Crockett getting carries on 3rd and 1 and 1st or 2nd and goal from inside the 3, but I don't see him getting the rock much otherwise inside the 20s. 1st and 10 from 12? Jordan gets the call, I think. Will this vulture some TDs? Yes. Will he be like Staley with 1 or 2 TDs? I don't think so. I see 7 rushing TDs, with 2 TDs receiving.
I wouldn't say I really liked Jordan, but I am targeting him as a player that could outperform his draft position with a handful of other guys. In my opinion these are the guys that make or break your draft depending on where you draft them and how they pan out of course. I didn't like reading those comments from Norv Turner, so I posted this to get some responses. It has been helpful. It's definitley interesting to read the replies. I would say from reading everyone's responses that there is certainly some doubt surrounding his situation. Maybe we're overreacting or then again maybe he's gonna be a "Trung Canidate" bust. Only time is going to tell. Good postings though...by the way you'll never convince me that there is no such thing as a TD Vulture. I've seen too many throughout my fantasy years.
But I just systematically de-bunked almost every name you brought up.This section of FBG is brought to you by Statman's Heaven I invite you to surf through there. Great stuff, glad you started this thread because I wasn't sure how much I liked Jordan but I am getting warm to him on the 2nd/3rd turn for my RB/WR flex spot.I wouldn't say I really liked Jordan, but I am trageting him as a player that could outperform his draft position with a handful of other guys. In my opinion these are the guys that make or break your draft depending on where you draft them and how they pan out of course. I didn't like reading those comments from Norv Turner, so I posted this to get some responses. It has been helpful. It's definitley interesting to read the replies. I would say from reading everyone's responses that there is certainly some doubt surrounding his situation. Maybe we're overreacting or then again maybe he's gonna be a "Trung Canidate" bust. Only time is going to tell. Good postings though...by the way you'll never convince me that there is no such thing as a TD Vulture. I've seen too many throughout my fantasy years.
In your effort to "de-bunk" my list of vulture RBs you did fail to mention the biggest vulture in recent NFL history, Crockett. Who just happens to be the TD vulture that this particular threat is all about.But I just systematically de-bunked almost every name you brought up.This section of FBG is brought to you by Statman's Heaven I invite you to surf through there. Great stuff, glad you started this thread because I wasn't sure how much I liked Jordan but I am getting warm to him on the 2nd/3rd turn for my RB/WR flex spot.I wouldn't say I really liked Jordan, but I am trageting him as a player that could outperform his draft position with a handful of other guys. In my opinion these are the guys that make or break your draft depending on where you draft them and how they pan out of course. I didn't like reading those comments from Norv Turner, so I posted this to get some responses. It has been helpful. It's definitley interesting to read the replies. I would say from reading everyone's responses that there is certainly some doubt surrounding his situation. Maybe we're overreacting or then again maybe he's gonna be a "Trung Canidate" bust. Only time is going to tell. Good postings though...by the way you'll never convince me that there is no such thing as a TD Vulture. I've seen too many throughout my fantasy years.
I think you are dead-on accurate. However, I think 1st and 10 from the 12, given Norv Turner's offense and the Raiders' personnel, turns into 3rd down really fast - and then Crockett gets the carry if it is 3rd and short, or the pass goes to Moss/Porter.
We're cool. I just thought it was a bit odd to hear someone make a statement that TD vultures didn't exist. If you want to debate how much of a factor Crockett will be in that regard or how much of a fantasy/NFL factor TD vultures are in general, that's all fine with me. Just don't say they don't exist and not expect to get called on it. BTW, I find it humorous that you feel you have debunked the TD vulture when I have yet to see anyone actually define what the parameters of said player is. I applaud your attempt, but find that you seem to paint with a very broad brush when it suits your needs.
Yeah, I flew out to San Diego for that playoff game, and watched Lamont shred the D at will.He definitely has the talent, and I suppose 'fresh legs', so I would not hesitate to make him my RB2. I have not seen him lasting to RB3.
Not to hijack, but let's not get too carried away with Jordan just yet -- especially when it comes to saying he's a more complete back than Garner. Garner posted back-to-back 1,000-yard rushing seasons with the Niners and had four straight seasons with more than 860 yards rushing and more than 1,400 total yards. I always thought Garner was an under-appreciated RB. People focused on what a terrific receiver he was out of the backfield -- which was true -- but he was also an effective runner as well.
You know the pre-season is in full swing when guys are extrapolating 16 game data predictions based on 50 and 60 carry sample sizes and making excuses for every negative data point.
Many sexual implications there that I don't care to discuss at 1:50 AM, but I got a good chuckle reading it.
He had moves like Barry and definitely played bigger than his listed size.He never could take the pounding of a full season it seems like though.
not sure why jordan wouldn't be good value in early to mid third if he gets 1,200-1,300 yards, especially if he gets some receptions to go along with that (PPR). the good WRs thing works both ways... with moss, porter & curry being one of best trios in NFL along with IND, DET & STL, it stands to reason they might move the ball better, rip off more chunks of yardage, have a more explosive downfield attack... ie - get to the red zone a lot more... while the pie could be divided more ways with moss... it could be a MUCH bigger pie.maybe the biggest reason for the excitement of jordan is that, b4 last season, turner has a extensive resume as OC & HC with star feature RBs (see below)...excerpt..."Norv Turner's love of workhorse runners is well-documented. He helped make Emmitt Smith the NFL's all-time leading rusher with the Dallas Cowboys. He coaxed 1,400-plus yard seasons out of Terry Allen and Stephen Davis as head coach with the Washington Redskins. As offensive coordinator in San Diego and Miami, Turner fed the ball to LaDainian Tomlinson and Ricky Williams as he would red meat to a hungry lion." the article...LaMont counted on the mostRaiders need big year from new running back to have winning seasonNAPA — "The franchise returned to the practice field behind the Napa Marriott at around 11 a.m. Thursday, slowly making his way to the field house while his teammates wrapped up a morning walkthrough. LaMont Jordan, in Maryland for two days to attend a family funeral, was carrying a heavy heart but insisting he was ready to carry the football. He had better be. The deal bringing Randy Moss aboard was officially announced on March 2 and included a police escort to the Raiders facility. The following day, with much less fanfare, the Raiders made an even more significant move by signing Jordan to a five-year contract that could be worth as much as $27.5 million. Jordan has been a Raider for a little more than five months. For a variety of reasons, he is already their most indispensable player, the one man the Raiders simply cannot do without. Any chance the Raiders have of returning to .500 and beyond rests on Jordan's shoulders. He is the central figure of Oakland's offense and might be the one player capable offrom Sports 1 rescuing its suspect defense by keeping it safely on the sideline. Accept no replacements, because there aren't any. As well as Zack Crockett is running, at age 32 he is best utilized as a situational runner and special-teams player. The drop-off after Jordan resembles one of those old Acapulco cliff diving competitions on "Wide World of Sports," a free fall into the shallow waters of Justin Fargas, Omar Easy and DeJuan Green. After four years as an apprentice for Curtis Martin with the New York Jets, Jordan feels he is prepared to be the main man. He looks and acts the part. Exuding a quiet confidence but without boasting, Jordan says he is ready for it all. The carries, the pounding, the expectations. He is anticipating life as a star player. ''I have to realize that my life is changing now," Jordan said. ''I'm in a totally different tax bracket, that's for sure. I think the biggest thing I'm going to have to handle is people just recognizing me, coming up to me, wanting to talk. Everything else, I think I'm prepared for." Last season was a blight on Turner's rushing rsum. The Raiders finished with a franchise worst and league-low average of 80.1 yards per game. Their leading rusher, Amos Zereoue, gained 425 yards — the lowest total for a team rushing leader in Raiders history. Oakland's average time of possession — 26:47 — was far and away the worst in the NFL and allowed opponents more time to attack Oakland's 30th-ranked defense. Some of it was circumstance, as the Raiders were often behind and couldn't stop anybody. Some of it was commitment, as Turner didn't realize his best runner was Crockett until he had gained 134 yards in the season finale. Some of it was injury, as Tyrone Wheatley got hurt early and never recovered. Circumstances have changed, and so has the commitment. The Raiders brought in offensive line coach Jim Colletto, line coach in Baltimore for the past six years. Colletto said he is teaching the same blocking schemes he used with the Ravens to get Jamal Lewis 2,066 yards in 2003. ''In some cases, they are exact duplicates," Colletto said of the system he implemented in Baltimore and the one he is installing in Oakland. The Raiders moved Langston Walker to guard for more push on the inside. Right tackle Robert Gallery is a year older. Bringing in Moss, to go along with Jerry Porter and presumably Ronald Curry, means that opponents won't often bring an extra safety near the line of scrimmage. As for injury, only time will tell if Jordan, at 5-foot-10 and 230 pounds, is built to take a pounding. If all goes according to plan, his four-year totals of 262 carries, 1,277 yards and 10 touchdowns will be exceeded by Week 14. Fullback Chris Hetherington, who blocked for Marshall Faulk with the St. Louis Rams, sees Jordan as a ''1,300- to 1,400-yard" rusher. ''He looks good, man. He's tough, he's durable, he runs hard, he's thick," Hetherington said. ''He is going to run for a lot of yards for us. If they put seven in the box, we're going to run it down their throats." Jordan said he has no statistical goals, wanting only to leave everything on the field every week. A few moments later, he concedes he was insulted at a preseason fantasy football magazine that pegged his 2005 worth at 975 yards. ''For me to be a starting running back in the NFL and somebody says I could play 16 games but I won't get 1,000 yards, I took it as a slap in the face," Jordan said. ''OK, you can slap me once. But at the end of the season, I want to make sure I'm hitting you back with a powerful punch." If Jordan hits hard enough, the Raiders will at least have a chance to be in the fight."There is no such thing as a sleeper that goes in the second round.
I do think Jordan could be a RB1, but I'll take RB2 numbers all year. I see Oaklands offense being wide open this year with lots of deep balls to Moss. That should be fairly obvious to most of us. With that type of offense, a talented, pass catching RB like Jordan (my opinion) will have tons of room to run and catch screens. There will be plenty of scoring opportunities for Jordan outside the 1 yard line.Exactly. Moss = more first downs = more opportunities for all.As a Jordan owner, I'm not the least bit worried about Crockett. I'm not planning on Jordan being my #1 RB. I have McAllister and Julius for that.
I would be more concerned about Crockett if Moss wasn't around. I think Moss being there equals more TDs for everybody. Take the Colts for example. Plenty of TDs to go around. Edge had 9 TDs last year while Harrison had 15, Wayne 12 and Stokely 10. My point is that if a team scores enough TDs it really doesn't matter if someone vultures a few. In the Colts case, their 3 WR vulture TDs from James, but he still got his 9. If Moss and Crockett vulture a few Jordan could still get 9+ TDs.
He did and was NEEDED.. I liked having him but he wasn't the complete back.. He was good between teh 20's.. That allowed the Raiders to use a commitee method of moving the ball.. If you look at Jordan.. He has everything it takes to be an all around back. Your going to be surprised this year if you honestly think the plan last year will be the same this year. Baring injury. Jordan is a LOCK for 1200 and between 8-10TD's rushing. He still has a higher upside IF the Raiders stay close in games. I am surprised there are so many non believers out there.
more complete than garner?garner is one of the most complete backs ever. he could run and catch. it doesnt get more complete than thatHe did and was NEEDED.. I liked having him but he wasn't the complete back.. He was good between teh 20's.. That allowed the Raiders to use a commitee method of moving the ball.. If you look at Jordan.. He has everything it takes to be an all around back. Your going to be surprised this year if you honestly think the plan last year will be the same this year. Baring injury. Jordan is a LOCK for 1200 and between 8-10TD's rushing. He still has a higher upside IF the Raiders stay close in games. I am surprised there are so many non believers out there.
By the same token you must think Westbrook is complete?? If so why do they use the committee method?? Garner was a great change of pace/receiving back. NOT complete. Faulk was a complete back.. Most feel Jordan will be that complete back. Power/speed/receiving. If the Raiders didn't they wouldn't have invested 27+ mill.. Think about it..more complete than garner?garner is one of the most complete backs ever. he could run and catch. it doesnt get more complete than thatHe did and was NEEDED.. I liked having him but he wasn't the complete back.. He was good between teh 20's.. That allowed the Raiders to use a commitee method of moving the ball.. If you look at Jordan.. He has everything it takes to be an all around back. Your going to be surprised this year if you honestly think the plan last year will be the same this year. Baring injury. Jordan is a LOCK for 1200 and between 8-10TD's rushing. He still has a higher upside IF the Raiders stay close in games. I am surprised there are so many non believers out there.
in post 19 of this thread, ministry of pain wrote this in last paragraph (i'd use quote function, but i have to quote your post now)...Um, did I miss something?
Gotcha - I thought I missed a pejorative comment somewhere along the line.in post 19 of this thread, ministry of pain wrote this in last paragraph (i'd use quote function, but i have to quote your post now)..."Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up."Um, did I miss something?
in the very next post (20), you said good posting...
to which MOP replied (21), he found it amusing your avatar was a pig...
to which you replied you were a pink floyd fan... so am i... sorry about the inscrutable reference.
I understand you being a Raiders fan and all you have hope at the RB position like you haven't had in a while and you have to stand behind your team and all but...Just because they put out a lot of money for an unknown, doesn't make him as good as his paycheck.
In many ways, he's less proven than the rookies coming into the league right now.History speaks well for first round SEC/Big 12 RBs.
normally i would agree with you... i do actually on the unproven part... but i don't dis him for being a backup during his tenure with the jets.he was stuck behind curtis martin. its not like he couldn't see the field because he was stuck behine artose pinner or shawn bryson. martin is legitimately one of the best RBs in history of NFL... if we are going by production... he doesn't have top notch measureables... but neither did walte payton or jerry rice... what they all had/have in abundance is heart.
That's the ONLY reason I am paying him any mind. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because the #1 was the ageless Curtis Martin.I was even rooting for Jordan to get on the field more in the playoffs because I think he would've helped. Not because I thought he was a better RB per se, but he looked a LOT fresher and explosive compared to C-Mart at that stage of the season.However the point is, certain people want to point to stats (ooh look 5.0 YPC) and completely ignore the fact that he wasn't the one getting 370 carries on the season. I think he's above replacement level, but I'm not drafting a guy high just because he's the starter on his team. He also won't have Mawae clubbing defenders in the head with a cast either.
As far as scouting a FA out as much as the rookies... What kind of interest did he generate outside Oakland? AFAIK, they were the only team really looking to give him big bucks like that. It's not like other teams didn't have RB needs before the draft.
Never make arbitrary comments like this "no way???" All ADP numbers for 12-team leagues from every source I can find belie that comment. His "average" is bottom of the second/top of the third - he could EASILY slip to the mid-3rd or later in tons of drafts.
And the majority of time he did play was in garbage time. In no way am I saying he will be a bust, but people bring up how he had a 5.0 YPC and how he looked good playing when the fact of the matter is that he played during a time when the D was getting blown out or have played a whole game already.
Ok, how about in last year's playoff game against the Chargers, one of the top rushing defenses? He had 7 carries for 50 yards compared to Martin's 18 carries for 66 yards. You can't say that he got that during a blowout or when the defense was worn out because he was 2 for 17 yards on the first drive. In the next playoff game against the Steelers, another good rush defense, he was 6 for 30 yards.
OK, he had a good game in playoffs when Martin had already close to 410 touches on the year. Fine, I am not disputing that. My point wasn't that he can't have a good game, or that he hasn't, its that THE MAJORITY of who he plays is not even an average defense, so to use his stats to determine that he will be good is pointless. He played behind one of the best O-lines in the league and got the majority of his carries against bad and tired defenses. I have posted these stats before to prove this. People alaways post his YPC, his stats or say he looked good but don't really know the competition he was up against.
2005 ScheduleDate Opponent Sep 8 @New England (9th) Sep 18 Kansas City Sep 25 @Philadelphia (10th)Oct 2 Dallas Week 5 BYE Oct 16 San Diego Oct 23 Buffalo (2nd)Oct 30 @Tennessee Nov 6 @Kansas City Nov 13 Denver (4th)Nov 20 @Washington (3rd)Nov 27 Miami (8th)Dec 4 @San Diego Dec 11 @N.Y. Jets (7th) Dec 18 Cleveland Dec 24 @Denver (4th)Dec 31 N.Y. GiantsIf you simply ignore the fact that the Raiders have the 2nd hardest run schedule of the year, they also have EIGHT games aginast top 10 defenses of last year. HALF of their games are against Top 10 defenses!! Thats TOTAL defense, not just run defense.Now add his hard run schedule with the fact that they are going to be playing EIGHT Top 10 offenses who are going to be able to run the score up on the Raiders dismal defense and limit Lamont's carries and I don't see good things for Lamont.
Making this statement based on last years end of season numbers means very little in the era of free agency. Without getting into to in-depth analysis, off the top of my head significant changes to those top 10 defenses:New England lost two coordinators, Johnson & Bruschi
I would not discount the Raider O-line they have the players to field one of the better O-lines in the league. If Gallery and Jake Grove improve at all in their sophmore seasons this group could be very good. And from what I understand Grove is one of the meanest S.O.B.s in the game.Grove is a baaaaad man!
that last point was a good one, KRS... touche!That's the ONLY reason I am paying him any mind. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because the #1 was the ageless Curtis Martin.I was even rooting for Jordan to get on the field more in the playoffs because I think he would've helped. Not because I thought he was a better RB per se, but he looked a LOT fresher and explosive compared to C-Mart at that stage of the season.
However the point is, certain people want to point to stats (ooh look 5.0 YPC) and completely ignore the fact that he wasn't the one getting 370 carries on the season. I think he's above replacement level, but I'm not drafting a guy high just because he's the starter on his team. He also won't have Mawae clubbing defenders in the head with a cast either.
As far as scouting a FA out as much as the rookies... What kind of interest did he generate outside Oakland? AFAIK, they were the only team really looking to give him big bucks like that. It's not like other teams didn't have RB needs before the draft.
though it occurred to me that MIA, CHI & TB may have preferred rookies as they are... younger... gringoloco said it recently in different context... cars are sometimes valued lower by mileage & years.
He looked good running for the Raiders in the preseason - if you didn't watch it you don't know.He was explosive to the corner and he powered through tackles - plus the Raiders offensive line looked very good in front of him.
